Do you believe this target?

[Griz44Mag]

I have not ever seen the same target used at three different distance spread that far apart - did they move the target or move the shooter? If they moved the shooter I would sure not want to be the 100 yard shooter at that place!!!! Someone at 800 yards would probably not even see the poor slob shooting prone at 100 yards. Looks like BS, smells like BS, sounds like BS - it's probably BS.

Griz44Mag

 

[rideHPD]

I miss when reading comprehension was more prevalent on forums.

I'm assuming those who said they've never seen someone shoot the same target at multiple distances has shot a range with pits. Janky target and overall jankiness leads me to guess that maybe they have a large open space for shooting with only one safe area for a back stop.

Now for the real question, how likely is it that they actually shot that target. Now we know there are 2 shooters and 3 different loads. Surprisingly, I would have said I'd be more likely to believe it's authentic without that information. Parallax adjustment makes a much greater effect in close, and if they left it at the infinite rage setting, that target would make a lot of sense. Granted I wouldn't expect that for a gas gun but who knows, some combinations are randomly, freakishly precise. Now that said, the muzzle velocity variation alone in factory ammo should create a larger spread at those distances. So realistically, it seems unlikely that informaton about the target is correct. That's also not to say they're being dishonest, as if they had a clue they wouldn't be sharing group info that's wildly confusing to even the amateur LR shooter. I'm thinking they made a mistake in ranging or remembering.

Not to be rude, but being able to shoot 1 MOA behind a bolt gun means exactly nothing. Most people who get behind one of mine can do so after a group or two after being instructed on the correct fundamentals. Most of them won't get below 1.5-2 MOA when they go to a gas gun that is sub MOA, or capable, or whatever. I never got around to Elfsters 6x5 challenge so I'm not trying too claim I have certified sub moa gas guns, I'm not really wrapped up on the title.

I'm detracting. Point is, shooting a gas gun well is an entirely different thing, especially the .308 class. It's something that takes time to get the hang of, and requires constant focus. You can get by on sloppy fundamentals with a bolt gun and still shoot decent groups. Try the same with a gas gun and you have a 2 MOA flyer.

If you're stuck around 1.5-2 MOA try some dry fire to make sure your NPOA is perfect, and some different factory ammo loads. If you get a couple touching and one or so an inch or more away, that's probably decent match ammo and flinch on your part.

 

[Rastoff]

That's also not to say they're being dishonest, as if they had a clue they wouldn't be sharing group info that's wildly confusing to even the amateur LR shooter. I'm thinking they made a mistake in ranging or remembering.

Thank you for this sentence. I don't think they are trying to be dishonest either. I think this is more of a case where expectations exceed performance. In other words, they feel they've built a high quality rifle, with high quality parts and therefore, it should shoot better than MOA. That doesn't mean it will.

The other issue I have with this target is who shot it. According to the manufacturer it was shot by a guy and his father. Neither actually work for the company, they're just acquaintances. At least that's how I understand it. This alone seems like a strange practice to me.

It's also entirely possible that the shooter(s) thought they were shooting at those yardages, but weren't. Let me explain...
At my local range we have rifle targets at 50, 100, 200 and 300 yards. I've measured these distances with a laser range finder and they are pretty accurate; within a yard or so. I've had several people tell me that they were at our range shooting at the 400 yard target. I had one guy tell me that he was using the 500 yard target. These people are not lying, they're just wrong. It happens.

So could the target have been shot at 50, 100, 200 and 300? Yeah, that would be more believable.

In the end what really gets me is the ignorance. The manufacturer looked at this target and thought, "OK, this gun is working acceptably." Anyone that knows anything about long distance should have said, "Wow! I wish I could shoot like that! We're keeping this as an example of what our guns can do." And yet not one of them realized just how good these groups were until I said something. I find that strange.

 

[StlMakGuy24]

No way. Someone made a mistake.

 

[Rastoff]

OK, I just got off the phone with the manufacturer; Juggernaut Tactical. The guy I spoke to said he went to the range today with a U.S. Optics rifle instructor. He didn't shoot, but the instructor did. According to the guy I spoke to, the instructor was putting "hole through hole" at 400 yards with an AR-10. I gotta say, they seem to know the very best shooters. I would love to see these guys shoot.

I offered to have them come to my local range. I would provide the targets and ammo. I'd let them shoot and if they could duplicate this target, I'd take back everything I've said and proclaim their gun the best. They said they wouldn't come to me. Neither did they offer to have me come to them.

I gotta say, I'd love it if this gun was capable of what they're telling me. I just don't think it can happen.

 

[GH41]

"hole through hole at 400 yards" They blow some big smoke!

 

[macman2564]

This thread is ridiculous. I can't believe the premise of this is still being entertained. I mean, come on guys, we as a site used to be better than this sort of nonsense. You literally cannot pay me enough to truly believe these targets, under whatever circumstances they claim, were shot at these distances. It's just not so.

 

[Cartman]

"hole through hole at 400 yards" They blow some big smoke!

Why does this thread have me envisioning the sort of guy who puts a shot on paper, then fires four more off target and says "lookie there -- five shots, one hole!"?

 

[RicosRevenge]

OK, I just got off the phone with the manufacturer; Juggernaut Tactical. The guy I spoke to said he went to the range today with a U.S. Optics rifle instructor. He didn't shoot, but the instructor did. According to the guy I spoke to, the instructor was putting "hole through hole" at 400 yards with an AR-10.

Note to self... stay, wait... RUN away from Juggernaut Tactical.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

OK, I just got off the phone with the manufacturer; Juggernaut Tactical.

Classic blast from the past. This is the company that used to have a national sales director whose 1st post here was to show us his 1/2moa M1A because of their chassis and clam digger muzzle brake. That guy drunk emailed me for like two months after I told him what I thought of his claims.

 

[07yzryder]

"hole through hole at 400 yards" They blow some big smoke!

meh you just suck at shooting. I shoot hole through hole at 100 yards with my 1911..... mind you the initial hole is rather large like a cave entrance.... they might be those people in honesty. I know people who talk about ELR shooting cause they hit a cliff face at 1200 with a 308....

 

[Rastoff]

Classic blast from the past. This is the company that used to have a national sales director whose 1st post here was to show us his 1/2moa M1A because of their chassis and clam digger muzzle brake. That guy drunk emailed me for like two months after I told him what I thought of his claims.

Drat! I'm not surprised, but saddened to hear that there were earlier unbelievable claims.

I think I've been had.

 

[winniedonkey]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thet...r-review-juggernaut-tactical-juggerbrake/amp/

Same company?

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[RicosRevenge]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thet...r-review-juggernaut-tactical-juggerbrake/amp/

Same company?

LOL! Zero(s) across the board?!

 

[Rastoff]

https://www.google.com/amp/www.thet...r-review-juggernaut-tactical-juggerbrake/amp/

Same company?

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Well that was painful to read. I can honestly say that I've never fired the JT-10 I have off hand; only from a bench rest. I do have the "right hand" Juggerbrake.

It's also interesting to note that BEFORE they shot the target in the OP, they swapped out the muzzle brake with a regular .308 brake. Hmmm, maybe they don't like their own brake? I've also noticed that this brake is no longer available on their website. This tells me the brake could be causing some of the issues I had initially. Of course it has a different brake on it now.

Also, I thought there was less felt recoil with the new brake. This article just supports what I thought I felt. Very disappointing indeed.

 

[caelumatra]

For your groups when you shot it:
Did the 2.4 MOA group contain your cold bore shot?
The other two groups are similar enough to imply that the gun and shooter make it a 1.3ish MOA gun

 

[JoeBUtah]

This thread is ridiculous. I can't believe the premise of this is still being entertained. I mean, come on guys, we as a site used to be better than this sort of nonsense. You literally cannot pay me enough to truly believe these targets, under whatever circumstances they claim, were shot at these distances. It's just not so.

This.

 

[sheepdog697]

thats a big "BS" from me.

 

[Delicatessen]

Yeah that's full of shit, I would agree those are all shot at the same distance likely 100 yards it does not get better at 800 than it was at 150

 

[RifleBlog]

For what it's worth, I attended the US Optics Academy and can attest that no instructor there was putting up 0.1moa groups.

Fun guys, qualified, good shots and gritty as all hell with a "been there done that" attitude...but not 0.1moa groups.

 

[Rockdoc173]

It might be a little difficult to read, but here is what we have:
Group 1 - 150 yards, 1.615MOA
Group 2 - 600 yards, 0.16MOA
Group 3 - 800 yards, 0.117MOA

I've been having some trouble with this rifle. It's an LR-308 with an 18" barrel, 1:10 twist. I was having trouble getting good groupings. I contacted the manufacturer and ended up sending it back to them for evaluation. They changed the BCG and muzzle brake and sent me this target as proof that it's shooting good.

I'm a beginning long distance shooter. So, my experience with this is limited. Even so, it seems strange to me that the groups would get smaller the further the target is. Is it common for a person/gun to shoot 1.6MOA groups at 100 yards and then turn around and shoot 0.1MOA groups at 800 yards? Is this target believable?

I'm posting this to learn. This is not intended as a dig or attack on any person or rifle. I just want to know if y'all see this kind of performance in long distance shooting.

I think I'd call bull puckey on that one OP, but, as a rule, I tend to be skeptical of dudes (companies in this case) who talk about their microscopic 50-rnd groups fired from a million yards away. I think the most important question I can think of would be: have you fired the weapon? That's about the most effective way of determining the real-world capability of any weapon.


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