With all that is going on I have been doing more reloading for my handguns . For self defense ammo I have always bought top quality factory rounds. I shoot a few to check function and thats it trusting they will expand as advertised. I recently bought 500 124gn JHP for my 9mm's for reloading. The question came up how do I know they will work? What type of testing should I do? This became a question I had to have a answer for. Well I'm somewhat limited as to what I can do at the house as far as shooting goes. I do not recommend this but I filled a 5 gal bucket full of water and shot down into it from a ladder. I was impressed with the results the bullet expanded , cracked the bottom of the bucket. I don't know do you guys test your hollow point ammo? How?
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Do you test your handgun reloads?
- Thread starter salks
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I shoot uspsa and steel challenge so of course I test all my pistol ammo.
For uspsa there's a power factor to make for both minor and major. I use a standard caledwell chronograph for that. I also like my ammo to be accurate so I shoot at different distances up to 100 yards. I play with different lengths, different heads, powder and powder charges to get the results I'm looking for.
For steel challenge I want the least amount of kick I can get while still staying above the minimum required speed of 750 fps and having the gun run reliability. I over limp wrist the gun as well to the point its pretty much free recoiling and make sure it runs.
I've never made self defense rounds because like you I just buy Hornady critical defense and duty and call it a day but the water bucket test sounds like a good idea... Unless you can get/make ballistics gel. There's lots of hillbilly videos on YouTube of guys testing SD rounds in paper plates and all kinds of other stuff. Some even ask the butcher for expired meats.
If I were to make SD rounds I would do my basic uspsa testing but at a decently higher power factor depending on the caliber. I would also chamber check every round in the barrel it's going to be shot in, use all the same brass and over inspect each piece if not just get brand new starline.
For uspsa there's a power factor to make for both minor and major. I use a standard caledwell chronograph for that. I also like my ammo to be accurate so I shoot at different distances up to 100 yards. I play with different lengths, different heads, powder and powder charges to get the results I'm looking for.
For steel challenge I want the least amount of kick I can get while still staying above the minimum required speed of 750 fps and having the gun run reliability. I over limp wrist the gun as well to the point its pretty much free recoiling and make sure it runs.
I've never made self defense rounds because like you I just buy Hornady critical defense and duty and call it a day but the water bucket test sounds like a good idea... Unless you can get/make ballistics gel. There's lots of hillbilly videos on YouTube of guys testing SD rounds in paper plates and all kinds of other stuff. Some even ask the butcher for expired meats.
If I were to make SD rounds I would do my basic uspsa testing but at a decently higher power factor depending on the caliber. I would also chamber check every round in the barrel it's going to be shot in, use all the same brass and over inspect each piece if not just get brand new starline.
With any given self defense load I shoot at least 100 of them.
just started reloading, primarily for uspsa/2&3 gun/falling steel. i chamber check every round whether in a chamber checker or the actual barrel (plunk test).
as far as hd/sd, i'd think that if you select the same bullet and then load to roughly the same velocity as a factory defensive round, you wouldn't have to necessarily test expansion.
as far as hd/sd, i'd think that if you select the same bullet and then load to roughly the same velocity as a factory defensive round, you wouldn't have to necessarily test expansion.
Use your reloads for practice, for defense just use factory ammo.
The factory has already tested them with better minds and equipment than you and me and
everyone else on this forum.
The factory has already tested them with better minds and equipment than you and me and
everyone else on this forum.
I've never bought ammunition that I trusted more to go bang or to be more consistent over the ones I make.
That said, LEOs and military personnel trust mass produced ammo, that is much lower quality than legitimate self defense cartridges, every day all over the world. I know I was never worried about it when I served. To me the question is damn near neurotic. There are so many more legitimate concerns about legal self defense with a firearm that I would recommend you leave the gun at home and hire some body guards.
That said, LEOs and military personnel trust mass produced ammo, that is much lower quality than legitimate self defense cartridges, every day all over the world. I know I was never worried about it when I served. To me the question is damn near neurotic. There are so many more legitimate concerns about legal self defense with a firearm that I would recommend you leave the gun at home and hire some body guards.
It sounds like you want to know if your JHPs will work /expand properly in a defensive shooting situation. Short answer is don’t EVER even consider doing this. There are horror stories about serious legal issues individuals have gotten into using reloads in defensI’ve situations.
Do some reading on the subject, Massad Ayoob is a good read. Best solution is as a cop where you live what ammo his department issues and carry that only. To damn many lawyers in this country.
Masad Ayoob is literally for the masses, and people who can't shoot a handgun, and don't put thousands or rounds down the pipe every year or actually practice their draw. That is 99.99% of people.
He is great, but to a lot of people on SH this is like recommending to a diving instructor that they should take an open water class to find out whats what. For the OP perfect.
He is great, but to a lot of people on SH this is like recommending to a diving instructor that they should take an open water class to find out whats what. For the OP perfect.
The accuracy and reliability differences between self protection rounds is quite astounding. I didn’t do a side by side test until just a few years ago. Now I do it with every gun I carry. I could really not care much less about expansion or terminal performance. Gotta put the rounds where they matter, cycle the gun and keep doing that until the threat is taken care of.
ETA, here is the actual test that woke me up, three types of ammo think it was 10 or 12 yards.
ETA, here is the actual test that woke me up, three types of ammo think it was 10 or 12 yards.
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Yes i have always carried factory self defense rounds because i would not want to have to explain in court my "killer" reloads. In these times i may have to take out a second morgage to refresh the supply though if they can be found. I dont know it will be nice to have somthing on hand i know works.
In case anyone is curious...
In case anyone is curious...
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I buy factory ammo for self defense. I run a mag full through the chosen pistol and if it doesn't choke it's good to go.
But then I buy quality ammo and quality, duty-worthy handguns.
I don't buy the retarded 1000 round tests that you read about in retarded places like pistol-forum.
I mean at the end of the day it always comes back to shot placement right?
If you can't put the round where it's going to stop the threat wtf does it matter if it expanded or not or you were using an fmj or a HP? Obviously if hitting the same poa the hp should have a more desirable result on target.
As long as the round feed great from my set up, I focus on trying to hit where I'm aiming and have faith that physics and physiology will take care of the rest lol
I know these days you can buy some kind of gelatin to mix at home for testing. 30 years ago when everybody was looking to get rid of their old, thick yellow pages once a year I used them. I'd soak them in a kitchen sized garbage can full of water until they'd swell up.
I had an awesome collection of expanded Black Talons (now Ranger SXT?) back in the day shot from 6 feet or so. .44 magnum loaded with the old Speer SJHP 225 grains used to leave a larger than fist sized hole in the 1st phonebook.
If you have 18" of some kind of wet paper you can catch probably anything except magnums and .50BMG.
I had an awesome collection of expanded Black Talons (now Ranger SXT?) back in the day shot from 6 feet or so. .44 magnum loaded with the old Speer SJHP 225 grains used to leave a larger than fist sized hole in the 1st phonebook.
If you have 18" of some kind of wet paper you can catch probably anything except magnums and .50BMG.
Dave Petzal used to do testing like this, he’d write about it every now and again on the Gun Nuts blog for Field and Stream. He called it the “Ballistic Buffalo,” I think, and would stack various layers of stuff to compare penetration. Wet phone books were a primary feature.
You can probably still find those blog posts with some googling, but 18” sounds a little soft for some bullets; the copper ones like Barnes TTSX would often blow through I think, I remember him writing that he’d have to beef up the Buffalo sometimes.
Man, I read tons of his articles back when he was still writing them, guy was hilariously droll.
Lucky gunner data is good enough for me.
Conclusion:
Handguns make holes. If you're going to carry .380 make sure you use ammo that penetrates deep enough to make good enough holes.
QED
Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data
Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.
www.luckygunner.com
Conclusion:
Handguns make holes. If you're going to carry .380 make sure you use ammo that penetrates deep enough to make good enough holes.
QED
Of course, there is nothing better than preforming your own autopsy to determine the efficacy of a handgun...
I test for function and accuracy. I look at the Lucky Gunner test data and assume that so long as I can get the bullet coming out of the gun at similar speeds to the bullets in their test firings I am going to get similar expansion.
I also never wanted to have to reload for handguns but due to the shortages here I am...
I also never wanted to have to reload for handguns but due to the shortages here I am...
I test for accuracy and function. I try to run them pretty warm but not hot. My SD rounds are honestly more for black bears and cats. As stated above I want to be able to keep accurately placing shots until the threat is neutralized. There are so many variables when it comes to two legged threats that I gave up on trying to find the perfect bullets to use for everyday carry. I used to carry fmj’s in the winter and hollow points in the summer. Now after having to shoot a few bears at close range with Hornady tap ammo out of my 40 s&w I have decided that someone on Meth may react similar and is just going to need to get some extra holes in them to be neutralized no matter what bullet I use and how heavy of clothing they are wearing or any other barrier I’m I have to shoot through. Function, accuracy, penetration in that order are my priorities. If one of my family members or myself are dead because I was carrying lawyer loads I have already failed my intended goal.... fire for effect.
Some of the most accurate factory 9mm loads that I've ever tested are the top performing duty/self defense loads from Federal, Winchester and Speer. As an example, the 10-shot group pictured below was fired from a distance of 25 yards using Federal 147 HST ammunition. The group has an extreme spread of 0.83".
...
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I can't like this post enough, that's fukin awesome man. About the only thing you could do cooler than this is to stab that mofo to death...
BE-86 and Ramshot Silhouette both are low flash powders that you can use to similar effect.
When testing my HP reloads, I fill milk jugs with water and line 5 or 6 of them up back to back. Shoot through them and the bullet usually stops in the 3rd or 4th jug after completely exploding the first 2. The round in the pictures is a Hornady Critical Defense .380
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I use reloads in my carry pistol. I use modern cases, inspect each one of them to ensure the flash holes are uniform. I load them with 147g Gold Dots at over 1,100 fps. Out of a Glock 17 they did a smidge under 1,200 but out of my 19 they are loosing some velocity I am sure. You can tell it is a bit hotter than typical 9mm but it is listed in the VightaVouri manual using 3N38 powder.
I guess I should have mentioned in my original post the bullet. It was a 124 gn jhp from everglades ammo. I haven't really heard much about their bullets before nor could I find much of value when I did a search. I am glad I gave them a try. They were in-stock, had them with in a week and free shipping.
Agreed, I use Everglades alot, brass, bullets and powder. I have zero complaints, ship fast. The best job of packaging I found.
Years ago I heard people talking about Ayoob's comments regarding the "horror stories" of reloads in home defense situations, so I tried searching online for the source.
I couldn't find a single reference online about any individual receiving any charges, getting in "legal trouble", or otherwise punished for the use of reloads.
At this point I chalk it up to being an urban legend.
Interesting. Would you expand the your method of testing, slow fire, rapid fire , two hand grip... Major difference in groups. What do you think makes the difference? Bad QC at the factory?
So that was four years ago but as I recall I loaded three rounds fired, changed ammo, repeat through the types. I may have done both three shot groups back to back but I don’t think so. What I do recall is one type had a stove pipe and didn’t lock back on last round at all and wasn’t shot again. The other type I think I burnt the box on steel but that was it. This was a 9mm 1911 so it was picky on ammo anyway, had probably just under 500 rounds through it at the time. Both bad groups were not typical of what it was/is shooting like so couldn’t tell you what the major issue with those bullets were. I’m not gonna badmouth any of the ammo, the 320 likes it all the same. I’m just saying test your ammo.
I read his articles years ago where he stated that it had happened. I guess either he lied about it or google (or whatever search engine) you used isn’t finding it. Your choice on whatever leave of risk makes you comfortable.
Thank you. I have had ammo group like that, though not quality ammo.I find impacts go higher or lower due to bullet/powder combo which are significant enough to warrant testing.
These were all quality. Top group and another group are actually the same manufacturer, different rounds.
Maybe urban legend, I seem to remember decades ago Civil suits being brought against people using deadly force against violent criminals as a way to stem the tide of self protection. For the life of me I can't remember a defendant losing. This includes reloading as murderous intent. I think I also have seen a u-tube video of a Texas lawyer saying dead is dead, you can't make someone more dead by reloading your own. urban legend?
Maybe those aren't the only two choices?
Maybe Ayoob is referring to "similar" cases and making a logical leap to reloads?
Maybe he doesn't reference the case information because the outcome didn't fit his narrative?
Maybe he was trying to generate some buzz for his book so he said something sensational?
Maybe all of the modern search engines are intentionally masking references to it so people will get prosecuted for it (evil media giants)?
Maybe I found a lot of references, but I'm lying for some nefarious reason?
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. There are no laws limiting/prohibiting the use of reloaded ammunition while defending yourself (provided you're in compliance with the insane 'hollow point' and/or transportation rules in some states). If I'm ever in the unfortunate situation where I would need to shoot someone, the last thing on my mind will be the bullet that's used. If someone breaks into the house while I'm getting ready to go to the range i'm not going to ask him to wait until i switch guns/magazines before shooting.
Using commercial available bullets with commercial available powder I highly doubt you will get any legal grief over it. Now if you start loading bullets coated in poison, bacon grease for the muzzies, etc I can definitely seeing that being a problem.
