For those who upgraded to this scale after using a +/-1 0.1 grain scale, did you see noticeable improvements in your ES & SD after upgrading? If you had the "before" and "after" numbers, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
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Does A&D 120i scale make a big difference?
- Thread starter markl323
- Start date
Vast difference in ES, SD, and time savings over my RCBS Chargemaster. I mean vast... currently able to maintain an SD of 6 with a 50 round sampling on my 6XC with the CM I was lucky to get 18 or so. YMMV
ETA - Thats with using an ATV3
ETA - Thats with using an ATV3
Hum, I'm still a bit of a noob but with my old lyman I would have it underthrow then trickle the rest. Time consuming, got SDs of 15 to 20 - going to the Autotrickle V4 with the A&D the SDs are more like 8-12 and way faster (loading 308 and 6.5CM)
The primary benefit of the FX120i isn't the resolution but that it is magnetic force restoration. There are plenty of strain gage scales that are perfectly capable of resolving to +/-.02gr with repeatable accuracy. Strain gage scales don't resolve fast enough when trickling powder and are also more susceptible to drifting.
Get one and don't second guess yourself. I went from a hornady auto, to a gempro throwing individual charges, to the auto trickler v3 using the 120. The gempro was legit and got my sd/es's very small, but it took forever. The autotrickler does even better and a lot faster/more consistent. Kind of steep to get into, but this sport isn't for the penny pinchers. It's worth the investment when you are looking for results.
With my RCBS M-500 balance scale, my SD's were from 15-20 fps and ES's 30-60 fps.
When I went with a GemPro 250, my SD's were from 10-15 fps and ES's 25-40 fps. Sometimes I'd get a little better, but I hadn't figured out how to manage the drift. It took a lot of extra time to manage the drift and in doing so I could barely get into single digit SD's with ES's around 30 fps.
Going with a ChargeMaster, I'd get close to the same results as with my GemPro, but loading time was shorter with much less issue managing the drift (running it on battery helped with that).
Then with the FX-120i . . . WOW! Way faster, no issue with drift (when good startup procedure is done) and my SD's run in the mid single digit's and ES's running in the teens.
All of this is for reloading a .308 and have only reloaded 6.5 PRC with the FX and get the kind of results. Note: some calibers tend to be easier to get lower numbers than I've gotten (typically, like 6mm's).
Give it plenty of warm up time. Zero it when it's in the grams mode.
Because I have limited space for reloading, I almost always set up and take down my FX when charging a batch of cases. So, when I'm setting it up I have marks on my heavy duty desk where I align the FX's feet so that it's always exactly in the same place. I've put a little blue Locktite on the threads of the adjustable feet to resist any change in its setting and a small Sharpie mark on each foot the the desk alignment marks for quick and precise alignment; this way my bubble is always centered and no adjustments are needed. Once I plug it in (it's plugged into a good surge protector), I turn it on and let it sit and warm up for a least 1/2 hr. After that half hour I'll zero the setting before I change the mode to grains, then when I change to grains I put a 50 gr test weight on it to be sure I'm getting an accurate measurement (zeroing while mode is still in grams has worked best for me). I have a funnel in the hole at the top I use for trickling into the shot-glass like powder pan, which I fill using a Lee thrower and then trickle up. To keep the surrounding air still, I keep any fans, heating or air conditioning off while the FX is in use so no air is moving through the open front panel of the FX. During the process of charging the cases, I'll test the scale with the test weight to confirm the scale is still giving me the correct weight (once in a great while, usually when it hasn't warmed up long enough, the indicated weight can actually not be true and if so I'll simply re-zero it to bring it back).
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I use an RCBS M1000 beam scale, which is sensitive to the individual granule of powder.
Time for me to hand throw and hand trickle a charge on it is ~30 seconds after years of practice. Probably closer to 45 seconds when I started out. Of course, there is no going on to seating bullets etc... while you're throwing a charge as it takes all of your attention. This is where my reloading OCD started.
Upside: I get stupid low ES and SD with quality (Lapua) brass, giving up nothing in consistency to the best scales with auto tricklers.
Downside: It takes considerably longer for me to charge and subsequently seat bullets than the best scales with auto tricklers.
If time is money for you, and you reload to shoot - stay away from my setup. The 120i with auto trickler is a clear winner here.
If you're just wanting the scales only the 120i is easier to read I suppose, but I've not found any faults in my results at distance that make me want to change my setup.
Time for me to hand throw and hand trickle a charge on it is ~30 seconds after years of practice. Probably closer to 45 seconds when I started out. Of course, there is no going on to seating bullets etc... while you're throwing a charge as it takes all of your attention. This is where my reloading OCD started.
Upside: I get stupid low ES and SD with quality (Lapua) brass, giving up nothing in consistency to the best scales with auto tricklers.
Downside: It takes considerably longer for me to charge and subsequently seat bullets than the best scales with auto tricklers.
If time is money for you, and you reload to shoot - stay away from my setup. The 120i with auto trickler is a clear winner here.
If you're just wanting the scales only the 120i is easier to read I suppose, but I've not found any faults in my results at distance that make me want to change my setup.
I ordered the autotrickler v4 with the scale. It saves so much time over my old chargemaster.
Autotrickler v4 is a very good machine and is fast and accurate. Even better, IMHO, is the SuperTrickler. But, if you're inclided to buy American made products, Autotrickler is the choice . . . or, if money is no object. . . the Prometheus is an outstanding tool.
Buy 2 or 3 since price goes up every year.
I had the ATV4, it was a piece of shit. Been playing with the supertrickler for a week and so far much better ( has its own quirks).
I had the ATV4, it was a piece of shit. Been playing with the supertrickler for a week and so far much better ( has its own quirks).
What I bought myself with the investment in the V3 AutoTrickler was TIME. Yes, I could get my ammo just as consistent with my Chargemaster and a beam scale to finalize every charge for my match ammo BUT it took about a full MINUTE per charge. Now, with the ATV3, even with me slowing it down so it takes 13-15 seconds per charge (I can run it at 9-10 seconds, but I encounter a few more overthrows), I am usually within +1 KERNEL of Varget on the whole batch (I keep a small supply of kernels on the bench top and will just add 1 if it's 1 kernel (0.02 g) light). My SD's are 4.5-6 on average with the ATV3. Now I can throw, powder and seat 50 rounds in 28 minutes instead of an hour. That's time back with the family. Worth every penny.
The best set up IMO is to have the AT - auto thrower with a Ingenuity Precision trickler. (Uses AD120i scale). It's simple and works ridiculously well. Paul is supposed to be coming out with his own auto throw and whole set up at some point but I'm not sure when that would be. The Super Trickler has some advantages such as storing your settings and load, which is very nice, but nothing out there beats the IP trickler for speed and accuracy. Not sure how the promethius compares to the IP but they trickler in a very similar way so I would the think the IP and promethius are about the same in that department but the promethius may have a more accurate scale set up, that I don't know, but the AD120i is good enough to be down to less than one little stick of 4350 and I'm not cutting sticks of 4350.
Bartlien Stuetsville 6 GT Barrel
Alpha Brass
Berger 109
H4350
CCI 450
AMP Annealer
RCBS Matchmaster Dies
21st Century Mandrel
Supertrickler with FX-120i
Henderson Trimmer
3-3.5 SD, could get it lower but I don't want to work harder. Sub 3/8" 5 shot groups. On my 3rd GT barrel and they all shoot the same.
Same everything above for 6.5cm but Lapua Brass with similar results.
The point is if you control the variables, use the best components and tools, its easy to make super accurate and consistent ammo.
FX120i (or a prometheus if you shit kuggarands and have all the time in the world) is a must have if you care about making good ammo IMO.
Alpha Brass
Berger 109
H4350
CCI 450
AMP Annealer
RCBS Matchmaster Dies
21st Century Mandrel
Supertrickler with FX-120i
Henderson Trimmer
3-3.5 SD, could get it lower but I don't want to work harder. Sub 3/8" 5 shot groups. On my 3rd GT barrel and they all shoot the same.
Same everything above for 6.5cm but Lapua Brass with similar results.
The point is if you control the variables, use the best components and tools, its easy to make super accurate and consistent ammo.
FX120i (or a prometheus if you shit kuggarands and have all the time in the world) is a must have if you care about making good ammo IMO.
If you can afford it, buy it. It is just as accurate as a beam scale just with better precision and faster response time.
Whether the results are worth the extra expense depends on your level of OCD and type of shooting. It is a waste for a hunter putting deer in the fridge or the weekend plinker shooting tin cans on the farm. Low volume precision loading for long range a good balance beam works just as well, just slower.
Something like an AT or Super Trickler is very helpful for bulk precision loads. These autothrowers work so well because of the fast response time of the FX120.
If you want to weigh items like bullets, cases or primers, the FX120 is ideal. The readings are fast, accurate and repeatable. It is also has enough resolution to sort primers by weight with no appreciable drift.
Whether the results are worth the extra expense depends on your level of OCD and type of shooting. It is a waste for a hunter putting deer in the fridge or the weekend plinker shooting tin cans on the farm. Low volume precision loading for long range a good balance beam works just as well, just slower.
Something like an AT or Super Trickler is very helpful for bulk precision loads. These autothrowers work so well because of the fast response time of the FX120.
If you want to weigh items like bullets, cases or primers, the FX120 is ideal. The readings are fast, accurate and repeatable. It is also has enough resolution to sort primers by weight with no appreciable drift.
I'm really, really liking my AT V2 (with V3 board) and IP Trickler setup.
Just because you weigh powder to the kernel does not guaranty low ES and SD numbers.
Neck tension and other factors (in my opinion and experience) play a larger role in reducing ES and SD numbers, not
disputing that the A&D is a excellent scale I own one.
Neck tension and other factors (in my opinion and experience) play a larger role in reducing ES and SD numbers, not
disputing that the A&D is a excellent scale I own one.
The secret is just being consistent - in everything you do reloading.
This requires good components and equipment, and a consistent process. A good scale is just part of the equation to getting good ES/SD.
if you are loading cartridges with powder charges in the 20-40 grain range, absolutely you will see a difference.
but if you are running big magnums burning 90+ grains of powder you will not.
0.2 grains of powder means alot more in the smaller cartridges than the big ones
but if you are running big magnums burning 90+ grains of powder you will not.
0.2 grains of powder means alot more in the smaller cartridges than the big ones
those are real data:
so in reality, if you can operate with ChargeMaster, you wont gain very much by analitic charge. 0.1gr is 4 or 5 kernels of powder.
how much more precise your gun will be with that at short or middle range?
but if you need for long or extra range, you should buy it.
and dont trust people here, who cant operate with scales.
good balance scale (RCBS) is as good as A&D FX-120i and with both you can weight to 1 kernel. so those who get much better results with analitic scale than balance scale, are loosers who cant operate with balance scales.
We don’t think you’re a loser for using a balance beam. But we do know that you’re retarded.
Just suck it up and buy it. It's probably the best investment your gona make in this game. I went from the gem pro to a Lyman all in one thing like the charge master (giant turd) and figured I was wasting time and money so I started with just the fx120i hand weighing each charge and that was way faster than any other scale. Then I got the v2 autotrickler and that was faster yet. I just scoop the initial charge in the cup, set it on the scale and let the trickle do the rest. I recently upgraded again to the v3 and it seems a little slower than just the v2 because it starts and stops for a second when you put the empty cup on. It's all good though, I like it. I'm debating selling the v2
I'll catch a lot of S__T over this but if you looking at a good 0.1 grain scale versus a FX-120i you might be a little disappointed. Properly used the FX-120i is a 0.044 grain scale considering its readability and precision. If you are comparing a Chargemaster versus the Autotrickler then its a different situation because the Autotrickler is faster and has a finer trickling capability. This is especially true for the Chargemaster 1500 that had programming hacks to speed it up.
FYI, in the test @MarkyMark007 posted the data on, I don't know the number of rounds fired but if you compare the 10.7 versus the 8.7 SD and analyze whether the 8.7 is actually better than the 10.7 based on 20 rounds (based on the 20x note) using the F Test for variance there is only a 81% chance that that is the case. This is a case where comparing test data without analyzing it can be misleading. To actually have 95% confidence that the 8.7 is lower than the 10.7 would require a minimum of 66 shots per scale.
FYI, in the test @MarkyMark007 posted the data on, I don't know the number of rounds fired but if you compare the 10.7 versus the 8.7 SD and analyze whether the 8.7 is actually better than the 10.7 based on 20 rounds (based on the 20x note) using the F Test for variance there is only a 81% chance that that is the case. This is a case where comparing test data without analyzing it can be misleading. To actually have 95% confidence that the 8.7 is lower than the 10.7 would require a minimum of 66 shots per scale.
Most of the common load cell scales that only display .1gr do resolve to .01gr, they just don't display it. I have a very hard time believing some of the claims that just switching to a FX120i reduced a user's SDs by 50%. I was using a high'ish end load cell scale prior to switching to a 120i and there was no difference in the quality of ammunition I loaded. I probably chrono'd 1k rounds before and after the switch.
Here's something I posted this on other threads; a comparison I did a couple years ago to get an idea of the accuracy of my CM-1500 using the FX, ChargeMaster, GemPro and a Frankford Arsenal (make of it what you will):
Deja Vu all over again! The load cell and electronics on the Chargemaster are obviously more accurate than the display. The display is a large part of the cost of the scale. The other issue with lower end scales is zero drift which to some extent exists on every scale. The load cell scales use a bridge strain gauge which is not temperature sensitive. The electronics are a different matter. That issue is solved by zeroing (Tare) the scale before every measurement. The Chargemaster 1500 does this automatically when the pan is returned to the platen. The FX-120i also has this feature and it is recommended in the 120 manual. It is common lab practice also.
Absolutely worth it. One of the biggest improvements on my SDs and ESs. I run the V4 and use a dandy trickler if my V4 throws one kernel short
Try to tricle a charge of 0.4 gr on the CM, FX and whatever brand else you can think of. FX will show anything more than 0.02gr. Not sure about the CM. Lyman scales show 0.0 for any weight less than 0.4gr.
The FX rezero automatically at +-0.02gr if I remember correctly. The CM rezero automatically up to 0.2gr. Quite a large difference.
Warm up both scales for 30 minutes. Place a weight of around 40gr on each and leave it for more than 10 minutes. Note the drift between the two after 10 minutes. Remove the weights, rezero the CM and weigh the same object on both scales. The discrepancy is why the FX is so much more expensive than the CM.
The FX rezero automatically at +-0.02gr if I remember correctly. The CM rezero automatically up to 0.2gr. Quite a large difference.
Warm up both scales for 30 minutes. Place a weight of around 40gr on each and leave it for more than 10 minutes. Note the drift between the two after 10 minutes. Remove the weights, rezero the CM and weigh the same object on both scales. The discrepancy is why the FX is so much more expensive than the CM.
From the manual. If weighing on a very small wt. like one kernel you turn it off because the slight change from zero is seen as drift.
Zero tracking ( trc )
This function tracks zero point drift caused by changes in the environment and stabilizes the zero point. When the weight data is only a few digits, turn the function off for accurate weighing.
Note
Digit indicates a unit of minimum weighing value.
trc 0 The tracking function is not used. Used for weighing a very light sample.
trc 1 The tracking function is used. Normal zero tracking.
trc 2 The tracking function is used. Strong zero tracking.
trc 3. The tracking function is used. Very strong zero tracking.
I suggest users of good digital scales perform a drift analysis of your installation.
Temperature differences of floor/bench/nearby walls , and air currents can induce a flowing heat flux.
Check accuracy with a check weight. Like 2 grams for a 30grain charge.
Watch the reading (non zero and large enough for good resolution) over time.
One advantage of having EXTRA resolution is seeing beyond what is needed.
You can always ignore the last digit if you want, but it's there for a confidence check.
One little kernel of SB6.5 is about 25 counts on the top scale, about one count on the bottom scale.
My environment just isn't good enough for the ER-182A.
Temperature differences of floor/bench/nearby walls , and air currents can induce a flowing heat flux.
Check accuracy with a check weight. Like 2 grams for a 30grain charge.
Watch the reading (non zero and large enough for good resolution) over time.
One advantage of having EXTRA resolution is seeing beyond what is needed.
You can always ignore the last digit if you want, but it's there for a confidence check.
One little kernel of SB6.5 is about 25 counts on the top scale, about one count on the bottom scale.
My environment just isn't good enough for the ER-182A.
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