Does a machinist need an FFL

[RetardedTiming]

...to thread the barrel on my LTR? I haven't been able to find a good gunsmith locally, but I know an amazing machinist. I just don't want to do something I/he is not suppose to be doing without a license. I want to add a brake, but obviously I need threads and the brake to be clocked correctly. I would prefer not to have to send it somewhere for who knows how long...

 

[LRS_Ranger]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

I dont' think so.. you need the manufacturing license if you are making a firearm, and the serial numbered part is the action. Threading the barrel shouldn't require any paperwork.

That's why when you buy gun parts you can have them shipped to your front door, unless it's the action, lower reciever, etc.

 

[cruizer]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

he should be fine doing the work as long as you stay with the rifle or pull the reciever off and just leave the barrel with him

 

[RetardedTiming]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

I would think I need to remove the barrel for him to thread it anyway, no? If he can do it with the action in place it saves me a step. I would be able to hang out with him while he did it. So technically that makes it ok from the sound of it.

 

[uafgrad]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

According to BATFE they would consider him a gunsmith and require an FFL
Same as getting a firearm engraved. Legally an engraver must have an FFL to work on the serial numbered item

 

[RetardedTiming]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

If the serial numbered action was left in his care though, right? Not if I was present at the time he threaded the barrel or just gave him the barrel?

 

[dvsdev]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Retarded Timing</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If the serial numbered action was left in his care though, right? Not if I was present at the time he threaded the barrel or just gave him the barrel?</div></div>

Correct, he would need a FFL if the serial numbered action was left in his care. If you are present while he is working on the barrel or if you just sent him the barrel, no FFL is needed. This is how AR15barrels operates without a FFL.

 

[STR]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

Not wanting to start any arguments, just trying to help. He only needs an FFL if he runs a fire arms business where he gets paid for his work. He may do work on firearms as any hobbyist would for him self or friends without an FFL. He is only considered to be manufacturing if he purchases an action or rifle to build or rebuild with the intentions of reselling it for a profit after modifying. If someone brings the gunsmith an action or complete rifle for building on that has already been transferred to them, that would not be considered manufacturing. That's why smiths that hold only an 01 license want the customer to supply the action. If you have any doubt about what I'm telling, just call your local ATF office and ask to speak with a field inspector. Good luck.

 

[Kalman]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

Here's the ATF's FAQ on the subject. It does not directly address this subject. However it DOES say this:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A company acquires one receiver, assembles one firearm, and sells the firearm.

The company is not manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business and is not engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms. This company does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer.</div></div>
If he does ONE, he shouldn't need the manfacture's license.

 

[TresMon]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL


I do it. Without an FFL if the guy sticks by my side.
It can be done without removing the barrel from the action.

Have fun,
Tres

 

[300sniper]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

now what about if he charges you for the service, even if you stand there with him and the firearm? i am not sure if him charging for the work changes anything or not but i have a hunch that it does.

 

[RetardedTiming]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

Thanks for the help and suggestions everyone, I feel better about letting him do the work.

I guess a sure fire way is to find a good gunsmith in San Diego or someone known in the industry that can turn it around in a reasonable amount of time if I send them the barreled action....suggestions are welcome.

 

[bohem]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

The hiccup comes when you leave the firearm in his care and walk away. If you sit in the shop and read a magazine until he's done, pay him for his work, and then leave no FFL is needed.

If he's a friend anyway bring along a case of his favorite beer (assuming he enjoys a beer) as a thank you. Speak of it to nobody, be done with it.

 

[300sniper]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The hiccup comes when you leave the firearm in his care and walk away. If you sit in the shop and read a magazine until he's done, pay him for his work, and then leave no FFL is needed.

If he's a friend anyway bring along a case of his favorite beer (assuming he enjoys a beer) as a thank you. Speak of it to nobody, be done with it. </div></div>

i think once you compensate him for his work on a firearm, he is now in the business of gunsmithing. i don't think needing a ffl has anything to do with leaving the firearm in his possession or not.

edit: to back up why i <span style="font-style: italic">think</span> the above is true (so i am not just speculating, dennis

),

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gunsmiths.html
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Q: Is a license needed to engage in the business of engraving, customizing, refinishing or repairing firearms?</span>
Yes. A person conducting such activities as a business is considered to be a gunsmith within the definition of a dealer.

[27 CFR 478.11]
</div></div>

now the question is, is a one time barrel threading job considered "engaging in the business of"? if you are compensated for services provided, i'd sure think you have had a business transaction. is that "engaging in the business of"?

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

What does leaving it with him vs standing there have to do with anything, so long as it isn't an NFA item?

 

[STR]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

A little more clarity. I he's not an FFL, you don't have to stand by while he does the work, unless you don't trust him. That only applys if he has an FFL, and is not going to log the firearm in and back out of his A&D book.

 

[John L]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does leaving it with him vs standing there have to do with anything, so long as it isn't an NFA item? </div></div>

By ATF Regs. if you leave it overnight it has to be entered into the "Bound Book", if the work was done on a "while you wait" basis it does not have to be entered into the book. If you have to keep a book you need a FFL. When the work is completed the disposition of the firearm would also be recorded in the book.

 

[SDWhirlwind]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: John L</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What does leaving it with him vs standing there have to do with anything, so long as it isn't an NFA item? </div></div>

By ATF Regs. if you leave it overnight it has to be entered into the "Bound Book", if the work was done on a "while you wait" basis it does not have to be entered into the book. If you have to keep a book you need a FFL. When the work is completed the disposition of the firearm would also be recorded in the book. </div></div>

This is pretty much what was entailed in regards to my having to obtain a license in the late 80's when I was doing alot of stock work, bedding and cleaning for individual, having possession overnight was the reason, this right from ATF at the time!!!! Items had to be logged in in part because of possible theft.

Other item was if you were charging/making money/doing it for a living. If the machinist does a firearms job or two the fee he charges would relate more to his having a state tax license and claiming the said fee on his income tax. If he does it on a regular bases for income and keeps the serial numbered part overnight then he is on breaking the law according to ATF if he doesn't have an FFL.

Sincerely enjoy all the 'speculation' from those who don't have a license or never had and in actuallity don't have a clue! Cannot understand why anyone posts what they think would or could happen. If you don't know for sure keep your opinions to yourself, I do!!!

Not trying to be a big ass but damn I get tired of the misinformation that is becoming common on this site. Hate to see BS posted and it end up like other gun forums. Many people have come here because they could/did obtain information that was true and not 'speculation'.

Respectfully,
Dennis

 

[RetardedTiming]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

I think everyone is in agreement as far as leaving the actual firearm (the serial numbered action) would require a FFL. Any other part of a firearm can be left without the machinists needing a FFL. So if he is doing stock work, he is permitted to as long as the serial numbered action is not present. Got it.

 

[Ratbert]

Re: Does a machinist need an FFL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Retarded Timing</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think everyone is in agreement as far as leaving the actual firearm (the serial numbered action) would require a FFL. Any other part of a firearm can be left without the machinists needing a FFL. So if he is doing stock work, he is permitted to as long as the serial numbered action is not present. Got it.</div></div>

Doesn't seem to be the case that everyone agrees at all. If he doesn't have an FFL then leaving a firearm with him is no different than loaning it to your buddy for the weekend.

ETA: So the issue hinges more on how much and what kind of work can someone perform before they're considered "in the business of firearms?" That's a rhetorical question, BTW.