Does "Over-Annealing" Impact Shot Dynamics?

[Rocketmandb]

A couple of weeks ago, while talking about annealing, @918v mentioned that he saw velocity drop load to load when he annealed every shot. He mentioned that he has shifted to annealing less than every shot (I think he mentioned 1/4, but I can't find it - perhaps he will post here). He called it "over-annealing", but that technically means you've cooked a case by getting it too hot - we need to come up with another label here...

Per AMP, annealing every time - or even annealing multiple times in a row - does not offer different results.

So, which is it?

I tend to agree with much of what @918v posts, so I don't discount what he's saying. At the same time, AMP is certainly in the know here too.

I decided to run what will likely be the first of many tests in this regard.

What I did:

- I took new Lapua brass and prepped as follows: uniformed flash holes and primer pockets, trimmed/chamferred/deburred, mandrel, neck lube
- After the trim step, I annealed every piece of this new brass. With five pieces, I annealed them four times, letting them cool completely between annealing
- I then primed, charged and seated (using an AMP Press)

Here are the plots (annealed 4x in blue):

Notes:
- As you can see, the 4x annealed cases show markedly lower seating forces.
- This is likely to have been caused by the brass being slightly softer.
- If these two sets of cases were shot next to each other (and I will do so hopefully tomorrow, but I might have Covid...), you would expect to see slightly lower velocity from those with lower seating forces.
- This is not 100% analogous to annealing four times over four shots because in that case, the brass would be getting worked during each shot, so I wouldn't expect this much of a drop

What's next? I don't know. I have to noodle on what would be a good test here to see how much this impacts things - I also hope I don't have Covid so I can test these tomorrow.

 

[misser]

we are now going to let you shoot them and report back with results of the test

 

[straightshooter1]

A couple of weeks ago, while talking about annealing, @918v mentioned that he saw velocity drop load to load when he annealed every shot. He mentioned that he has shifted to annealing less than every shot (I think he mentioned 1/4, but I can't find it - perhaps he will post here). He called it "over-annealing", but that technically means you've cooked a case by getting it too hot - we need to come up with another label here...

Per AMP, annealing every time - or even annealing multiple times in a row - does not offer different results.

So, which is it?

I tend to agree with much of what @918v posts, so I don't discount what he's saying. At the same time, AMP is certainly in the know here too.

I decided to run what will likely be the first of many tests in this regard.

What I did:

- I took new Lapua brass and prepped as follows: uniformed flash holes and primer pockets, trimmed/chamferred/deburred, mandrel, neck lube
- After the trim step, I annealed every piece of this new brass. With five pieces, I annealed them four times, letting them cool completely between annealing
- I then primed, charged and seated (using an AMP Press)

Here are the plots (annealed 4x in blue):
View attachment 8455035

Notes:
- As you can see, the 4x annealed cases show markedly lower seating forces.
- This is likely to have been caused by the brass being slightly softer.
- If these two sets of cases were shot next to each other (and I will do so hopefully tomorrow, but I might have Covid...), you would expect to see slightly lower velocity from those with lower seating forces.
- This is not 100% analogous to annealing four times over four shots because in that case, the brass would be getting worked during each shot, so I wouldn't expect this much of a drop

What's next? I don't know. I have to noodle on what would be a good test here to see how much this impacts things - I also hope I don't have Covid so I can test these tomorrow.

Need more info about your annealing . . . like, you used an AMP annealer? Or what?

 

[B y r o n]

You didn't mention what method you used to anneal the brass.

Here is my simple understanding of annealing - heat metal to appropriate temperature to anneal. If that temperature is not reached then the metal is not annealed. If temperature is to high than the metal can be taken to dead soft and not properly annealed.

 

[rijndael]

How do you account for changes in the interior neck carbon with each anneal, impacting searing force?

 

[Rocketmandb]

Need more info about your annealing . . . like, you used an AMP annealer? Or what?

AMP annealer

 

[Rocketmandb]

How do you account for changes in the interior neck carbon with each anneal, impacting searing force?

I use an ultrasonic to get the necks as clear of carbon as possible. For these, I used moly in the necks prior to mandrel and trimming, then dipped in neolube #2 prior to seating.

Seating plots (28 cases - not the new brass):

 

[memilanuk]

With five pieces, I annealed them four times, letting them cool completely between annealing

So... if I'm reading that correct, you took five pieces of virgin Lapua brass, and just annealed them four times in a row. No firing, no sizing, no work hardening, no... nothing that would be remotely similar to a normal loading/firing cycle.

What exactly is supposed to be the point of this test again?

 

[918v]

So... if I'm reading that correct, you took five pieces of virgin Lapua brass, and just annealed them four times in a row. No firing, no sizing, no work hardening, no... nothing that would be remotely similar to a normal loading/firing cycle.

What exactly is supposed to be the point of this test again?

According to AMP, annealing multiple times does not change the hardness of brass, therefore no change in seating pressure or velocity should occur. But there was a change in seating pressure. We should find out if the velocity changes tomorrow unless the OP dies from Covid overnight.

 

[misser]

According to AMP, annealing multiple times does not change the hardness of brass, therefore no change in seating pressure or velocity should occur. But there was a change in seating pressure. We should find out if the velocity changes tomorrow unless the OP dies from Covid overnight.

l believe it was said if the temperature was the same each time there was no change . which is why the amp was better

 

[Rocketmandb]

So... if I'm reading that correct, you took five pieces of virgin Lapua brass, and just annealed them four times in a row. No firing, no sizing, no work hardening, no... nothing that would be remotely similar to a normal loading/firing cycle.

What exactly is supposed to be the point of this test again?

Pretty simple concept, actually.

The point @918v brought up was that annealing over and over again lowered velocity. The way it would lower velocity is by softening the brass more each time, thus reducing effective neck tension.

By annealing 4x in a row, I am testing whether annealing multiple times does indeed have an additive effect each time on softening brass. The plot above shows that it does. You are correct in that there is no work hardening, etc. that would lessen the softening each time, but this test is about testing the extreme.

The questions I have now are:

- Does the work hardening completely counter the additive effect of annealing? @918v has experienced that it does not - I would like to find an effective way to test this and gather data on it.

- What is the floor - or is there even a floor - of the softening?

The point of all this?

If the brass is indeed continuing to soften as @918v postulates, is there a way to mitigate this? Why is that important? Because if you're developing a load at annealing #1 or #2, and the effective neck tension at, say, annealing #6 is different, then you've got to adjust your load. Determining if there is a floor is important, because perhaps you can mitigate by annealing to the floor up front with virgin brass prep.

 

[Rocketmandb]

According to AMP, annealing multiple times does not change the hardness of brass, therefore no change in seating pressure or velocity should occur. But there was a change in seating pressure. We should find out if the velocity changes tomorrow unless the OP dies from Covid overnight.

Fortunately, I am still here - and testing negative - but feeling moderately crappy. Granted, the multi-anneal is only a sample size of 5, but I'm expecting somewhere in the neighborhood of a 15 fps drop. Regardless, the seating forces alone are enough for me to test this with larger sample sizes - I'll likely do it on my 308, however, instead of my 300 PRC.

 

[918v]

.

Fortunately, I am still here - and testing negative - but feeling moderately crappy. Granted, the multi-anneal is only a sample size of 5, but I'm expecting somewhere in the neighborhood of a 15 fps drop. Regardless, the seating forces alone are enough for me to test this with larger sample sizes - I'll likely do it on my 308, however, instead of my 300 PRC.

My 308 load is a 175SMK over 40.7grs of AR-Comp in 1x FGMM brass. It makes 2720 FPS in a 26” Bartlein with an ES of under 15. If I anneal every cycle the velocity drops to 2695 eventually. If I don’t anneal the velocity creeps up to 2745 eventually. So, it’s either the AMP is overannealing or it’s annealing the wrong part of the case, i. e. too far down the shoulder.

Now that I’ve thought about it I think I’ll experiment with adding shims to the shell holder in order to raise the case in relation to the coil.

 

[Baron23]

I’ll experiment with adding shims to the shell holder in order to raise the case in relation to the coil.

It would be very interesting to read about the results of this ^^

Thanks

 

[vh20]

Thanks for the info @Rocketmandb
I received my AMP from FedEx yesterday as it turns out.
Tag

 

[Cascade Hemi]

Pretty simple concept, actually.

The point @918v brought up was that annealing over and over again lowered velocity. The way it would lower velocity is by softening the brass more each time, thus reducing effective neck tension.

By annealing 4x in a row, I am testing whether annealing multiple times does indeed have an additive effect each time on softening brass. The plot above shows that it does. You are correct in that there is no work hardening, etc. that would lessen the softening each time, but this test is about testing the extreme.

The questions I have now are:

- Does the work hardening completely counter the additive effect of annealing? @918v has experienced that it does not - I would like to find an effective way to test this and gather data on it.

- What is the floor - or is there even a floor - of the softening?

The point of all this?

If the brass is indeed continuing to soften as @918v postulates, is there a way to mitigate this? Why is that important? Because if you're developing a load at annealing #1 or #2, and the effective neck tension at, say, annealing #6 is different, then you've got to adjust your load. Determining if there is a floor is important, because perhaps you can mitigate by annealing to the floor up front with virgin brass prep.

If fired brass hardens less than the annealing change, and you anneal with the same temperature each time, the brass should reach a hard/soft stasis by annealing after every firing.

 

[straightshooter1]

.


My 308 load is a 175SMK over 40.7grs of AR-Comp in 1x FGMM brass. It makes 2720 FPS in a 26” Bartlein with an ES of under 15. If I anneal every cycle the velocity drops to 2695 eventually. If I don’t anneal the velocity creeps up to 2745 eventually. So, it’s either the AMP is overannealing or it’s annealing the wrong part of the case, i. e. too far down the shoulder.

Now that I’ve thought about it I think I’ll experiment with adding shims to the shell holder in order to raise the case in relation to the coil.

My go to powder is AR-Comp with either 40.5 or 41.1 grs pushing 169 SMK's loaded in mostly Lapua brass (sometimes the Palma cases, other times the LRP cases) and some in Federal brass. 41.1 grs In the Palma brass the velocity is at 2691 and in the other it's 2727, all out of my 26" Krieger barrel with SD's running between 5 and 7 with ES's in the low 20's. The only real velocity changes I see in my data show having to do with different primers I've used, but otherwise I don't see any drop in velocities due to my annealing after every firing . . . a little variance up and down, but nothing of any statistical significance. The box of Palma cases have been 13X fired and the other box of cases have been fired 10X. My annealing process is by flame using the glow method on an Annealeez.
Note: I also don't remove the interior carbon after firing, only dry tumble to remove lube; use steel wool to clean case necks after annealing.

Am looking forward to see how your experiment works out.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Not going to the range today - I'm loaded and ready to go, but chest getting heavier, and I don't think I'm out of the woods yet.

 

[straightshooter1]

Not going to the range today - I'm loaded and ready to go, but chest getting heavier, and I don't think I'm out of the woods yet.

Get well soon!

 

[918v]

My go to powder is AR-Comp with either 40.5 or 41.1 grs pushing 169 SMK's loaded in mostly Lapua brass (sometimes the Palma cases, other times the LRP cases) and some in Federal brass. 41.1 grs In the Palma brass the velocity is at 2691 and in the other it's 2727, all out of my 26" Krieger barrel with SD's running between 5 and 7 with ES's in the low 20's. The only real velocity changes I see in my data show having to do with different primers I've used, but otherwise I don't see any drop in velocities due to my annealing after every firing . . . a little variance up and down, but nothing of any statistical significance. The box of Palma cases have been 13X fired and the other box of cases have been fired 10X. My annealing process is by flame using the glow method on an Annealeez.
Note: I also don't remove the interior carbon after firing, only dry tumble to remove lube; use steel wool to clean case necks after annealing.
View attachment 8455545

Am looking forward to see how your experiment works out.

I have a feeling that flame annealing is better. I was talking with another shooter at the range who said induction annealing is through annealing. Flame anneals mostly the outside. That way the elasticity of the neck/shoulder area is preserved unless you overdo it.

 

[straightshooter1]

I have a feeling that flame annealing is better. I was talking with another shooter at the range who said induction annealing is through annealing. Flame anneals mostly the outside. That way the elasticity of the neck/shoulder area is preserved unless you overdo it.

When I first started annealing I was following the often prescribed 750°F as indicated by tempilaq. Then I saw a demonstration of the AMP where in subdued light you could see the neck turn rather bright red just for an instant as it engaged for their popper annealing time. For that to happen, the temperature had to be like at 1000°F or more. That's when I decided to try the Glow Method. In a darkened room I would get the case necks to start to glow and then have them immediately drop out of the flame. That glow was not just on the inside as I can see the glow also on the inside as well just before dropping out of the flame. With the case walls being so thin, I doubt there's much difference in temperature between the outside and inside. The results I got, both from the chronograph and on paper, are better than what I was getting when adhering to the 750°F model.

Below are some Federal cases that have been 10X fired, which I was processing. The pic is after cleaning the necks with steel wool after annealing before sizing. You can see how far down the anneal line goes, which was a little lower than I typically do. But they still performed very well.

 

[918v]

Yeah but you’re not heating up the case to the point where the shoulder is glowing. When I did flame annealing I applied flame till the neck just started to turn orange but that did not heat the shoulder to the same degree. Just because the case shows discoloration below the shoulder doesn’t mean that part of the case glowed orange. The anneal line is not an indicator of anything. On my amp annealed brass the anneal line often does not go below the shoulder. Sometimes it goes a quarter inch below. And I’m using the Aztec setting for that particular lot of brass.

 

[Im2bent]

So after you fire all your rounds, anneal 25 percent of the cases and set them aside. Load the rest without annealing and fire them. Now anneal 25 percent(of the original total) and set them aside. Load your remaining 50 percent without annealing and fire them. Now split the remaining cases giving you 2 lots of 25 percent anneal the one set and set aside, load and fire the remaining 25 percent. Then anneal the last batch, you will now have 4 sets of cases one with 1 annealed every firing one annealed every other firing, one every third and the last every fourth. Now load them all and see what happens.

 

[straightshooter1]

Yeah but you’re not heating up the case to the point where the shoulder is glowing. When I did flame annealing I applied flame till the neck just started to turn orange but that did not heat the shoulder to the same degree. Just because the case shows discoloration below the shoulder doesn’t mean that part of the case glowed orange. The anneal line is not an indicator of anything. On my amp annealed brass the anneal line often does not go below the shoulder. Sometimes it goes a quarter inch below. And I’m using the Aztec setting for that particular lot of brass.

You're right, discoloration does not tell you much about the heat on the case body. A lot of that simply depends on any residual cleaning or sizing solutions left behind. And the only part of the case that start to glow is the neck. . . not the shoulder.

Like I showed someone else on this website, I took a case and rubbed it down with steel wool to really get rid of an much contaminates as possible. Then I put in in my flame annealing machine and ran it for a little more than double the time I normally do to see if I could see how much and were the discoloration goes. Mostly, only could see and feel an oxidation layer. This is the result:

 

[03machstock]

Following, I love your tests, always so much good data comes from them.

 

[spife7980]

Not long ago the guidence was when 750 turns at the shoulder body junction, not just the end of the neck.

The neck will always turn before the shoulder, if equal heat are applied to each, so you concentrate a bit more towards the shoulder to try and have both come out closer together. But the neck will get to probably 1000 when the shoulder hits 750 just by the nature of the amount of material heat sink there is in each.

I use an Annie and I find the point where my depth in the induction field has both neck and shoulder come out closer and then I do the time setting where I get the anneal to happen at the shoulder body transition.

 

[max1840]

Get well soon. Looking forward to your findings

 

[morganlamprecht]

ive annealed with an amp every firing for many years and havent seen velocities trend up or down when using a large enough sample to capture the true avg

that said ive never specifically tested for it, i just ran an labradar any time i was truing/confirming dope over the life of barrels

2 main things ive seen when trying to isolate velocity changes outside of the obvious ambient temp...especially small ones (less than +/-50 fps is a pretty small change IMO) were bore condition and powder storage

a barrel that has rounds on it and has rounds added on top will generally speed up as it fouls...clean it and it will drop back. so depending on when in the cycle velocity is being checked it can potentially skew things. velocity check a barrel that has 200 rounds on it, then clean it good and fire a few foulers, id bet its slower than the before the clean majority of the time (assuming your cleaning regimen actually cleans it well). IMO it needs to be cleaned and fouled to the same condition every velocity check if trying to compare trip to trip

then powder storage...where im at its generally humid and powder stored 3 days in a climate controlled house in a hopper (lid closed but not reloading jug tight/sealed) was enough to drop the avg velocity 14 fps...3 days left in an open hopper (no lid) dropped it 30 fps...all 10 shot samples, shot on the same day with a control batch of ammo shot before and after to verify it was the same pre and post. I know people who live in dry climates who told me the opposite...their loads sped up if the powder was left out, but i dont have the ambient weather to verify that

idk everyones testing methods and how controlled they are, just things to be considered to avoid bad data

 

[Rocketmandb]

ive annealed with an amp every firing for many years and havent seen velocities trend up or down when using a large enough sample to capture the true avg

that said ive never specifically tested for it, i just ran an labradar any time i was truing/confirming dope over the life of barrels

2 main things ive seen when trying to isolate velocity changes outside of the obvious ambient temp...especially small ones (less than +/-50 fps is a pretty small change IMO) were bore condition and powder storage

a barrel that has rounds on it and has rounds added on top will generally speed up as it fouls...clean it and it will drop back. so depending on when in the cycle velocity is being checked it can potentially skew things. velocity check a barrel that has 200 rounds on it, then clean it good and fire a few foulers, id bet its slower than the before the clean majority of the time (assuming your cleaning regimen actually cleans it well). IMO it needs to be cleaned and fouled to the same condition every velocity check if trying to compare trip to trip

then powder storage...where im at its generally humid and powder stored 3 days in a climate controlled house in a hopper (lid closed but not reloading jug tight/sealed) was enough to drop the avg velocity 14 fps...3 days left in an open hopper (no lid) dropped it 30 fps...all 10 shot samples, shot on the same day with a control batch of ammo shot before and after to verify it was the same pre and post. I know people who live in dry climates who told me the opposite...their loads sped up if the powder was left out, but i dont have the ambient weather to verify that

idk everyones testing methods and how controlled they are, just things to be considered to avoid bad data

Great post and I'll address a few of the issues you mention (and some others). I do a lot of testing - I don't know why I like doing it, but I do. Controlling as many variables as you can is paramount.

- I store my "active" powder containers in a photographic cabinet that's humidity controlled. Temp stays fairly constant due to being inside an airconditioned house. In fact, prior to using any newly opened powder, I will crack it open and put it in the cabinet. Your comment about people in dry climates having their powder speed up is true. Most powder is not produced in an environment of low humidity (for obvious reasons) so when a container is opened in a low-humidity climate, the moisture in the powder exits and burn rate goes up. Humidity absorbed by a powder acts as a burn deterrent.

- I clean brass using an ultrasonic primarily to not impact the brass physically while also getting it as close to bare brass as possible.

- I have been annealing every firing using the AMP - I had thought that this would get me to baseline each time, but I'm questioning that now. Not that I won't continue to anneal each time if I find that the brass softening continues, but it has to hit a floor at some point (I think). If the softening continues then floors, is there a way to hit that baseline and maintain it?

- I clean after every trip out - regardless of shot count. I should do so at the range after X shots, but I'm not anal enough for that.

 

[morganlamprecht]

good stuff...im curious if you find any relation

 

[Rocketmandb]

good stuff...im curious if you find any relation

This first test is really all about determining if I go further - then it's figuring out the best way to proceed. Sample size will be the name of the game next.

 

[supercorndogs]

Is the water acting to reduce burn rate or is is adding weight? I.E making the same volume of powder weight more or less depending on water content.

 

[morganlamprecht]

when i checked a long time ago...a gem pro 250 was considered one of the better/affordable scales at that time lol

i made sure each was cal'd with the check weight and i weighed out a charge on chargemaster...confirmed it on a gem pro 250...then i left that same charge in an open container for a week and it weighed the same on the chargemaster and gem pro after that week of sitting out...so if it changed the weight, it was less than either scale could detect

considering a change of ~30 fps to the average that i saw from leaving that same powder out for 3 days in the same location (post #28)...and knowing that for that powder/cartridge combo (6creed/h4350) i saw ~7 fps change per 0.1gr, i would have expected a weight change of ~0.4gr which either scale should have picked up easily

so i assumed it wasnt from changing the charges actual weight, it was the humidity reducing burn rate/temp/etc or whatever factor just causes it to produce less velocity for a given charge

 

[Rocketmandb]

Is the water acting to reduce burn rate or is is adding weight? I.E making the same volume of powder weight more or less depending on water content.

You can't add water without adding weight, but according to Jeff Siewert (get his book if you haven't already), it's primarily adding deterrent which slows down burn.

 

[straightshooter1]

Is the water acting to reduce burn rate or is is adding weight? I.E making the same volume of powder weight more or less depending on water content.

I'm definitely not an expert on the physics of gun powder, but this is my basic understanding from the physics I do know . . .

When powder dries out, it'll burn faster. When powder dries out it weighs less. The opposite of those two for when moisture/water is added.

Because of this, when powder becomes more moist due to humidity, the additional weight results in less powder being put in a case than before it gained more moisture. In addition, the powder burns a little slower. You have these two things acting in concert to change pressure/velocity.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Because of this, when powder becomes more moist due to humidity, the additional weight results in less powder being put in a case than before it gained more moisture. In addition, the powder burns a little slower. You have these two things acting on concert to change pressure/velocity.

This is definitely true - easy enough to test with a couple humidity packs of differing levels.

 

[Cody S]

very very odd.
when I bought my AMP annealer very early on, I was specifically told to *not* anneal twice in a row.
then again I use the standard settings, not aztec.
my results have been fantastic and I have noticed very little seating difference between annealing every time and every other time.
my speed and SD are consistent either way.

 

[Chris1972]

 

[Chris1972]

Cleaned in the left vs not. You may be able to see it but feeling it is significant. That’s 0000 steel wool.

 

[Rocketmandb]

Range report:

- I got a velocity drop, but as much as expected, and what I would say would be within a margin of error.
- I expected in the neighborhood of 15 fps, and I got a 7 fps drop (2906 fps vs 2913).

 

[918v]

I wonder if the amount of velocity drop is proportional to the amount of powder in the case.

 

[CaseFinder]

Pretty simple concept, actually.

The point @918v brought up was that annealing over and over again lowered velocity. The way it would lower velocity is by softening the brass more each time, thus reducing effective neck tension.

By annealing 4x in a row, I am testing whether annealing multiple times does indeed have an additive effect each time on softening brass. The plot above shows that it does. You are correct in that there is no work hardening, etc. that would lessen the softening each time, but this test is about testing the extreme.

The questions I have now are:

- Does the work hardening completely counter the additive effect of annealing? @918v has experienced that it does not - I would like to find an effective way to test this and gather data on it.

- What is the floor - or is there even a floor - of the softening?

The point of all this?

If the brass is indeed continuing to soften as @918v postulates, is there a way to mitigate this? Why is that important? Because if you're developing a load at annealing #1 or #2, and the effective neck tension at, say, annealing #6 is different, then you've got to adjust your load. Determining if there is a floor is important, because perhaps you can mitigate by annealing to the floor up front with virgin brass prep.

 

[Edsel]

918v: Annealing Methodology?
Rocketmandb: Induction Annealing

Apples to apples or apples to oranges?

Curious about this - might have missed it, but this would need to be clarified before moving forward…

I am biased in favor of the AMP folks’ claims because they appear to have scienced the heck out of their findings, while we tend to bubbatech ours, no offense meant.

 

[Edsel]

Side - comment.

My first misadventure with the AMP device.

*** Push button ***

Nothing happen! Me try again!

*** Push button ***

Stoopid machine! Nothing happen!

*** Push button ***

Still nothing happen! Machine is scam! So useless, only make brass holder hot…

NOTE: Above done in rapid succession.

*** Seats bullets in disgust ***

Stooopid machine!… Is deceptive! Much deceptive! Treacherous!

 

[AllenOne1]

I started annealing brass a couple weeks ago. Running Aztec so I punched my code in from memory, 262. Ran a piece of brass, pulled it out when it was done, wow that looks hot. STOP. Is something wrong with this machine? THINK. My code is 162.

 

[Cascade Hemi]

When I first started annealing I was following the often prescribed 750°F as indicated by tempilaq. Then I saw a demonstration of the AMP where in subdued light you could see the neck turn rather bright red just for an instant as it engaged for their popper annealing time. For that to happen, the temperature had to be like at 1000°F or more. That's when I decided to try the Glow Method. In a darkened room I would get the case necks to start to glow and then have them immediately drop out of the flame. That glow was not just on the inside as I can see the glow also on the inside as well just before dropping out of the flame. With the case walls being so thin, I doubt there's much difference in temperature between the outside and inside. The results I got, both from the chronograph and on paper, are better than what I was getting when adhering to the 750°F model.

Below are some Federal cases that have been 10X fired, which I was processing. The pic is after cleaning the necks with steel wool after annealing before sizing. You can see how far down the anneal line goes, which was a little lower than I typically do. But they still performed very well.

View attachment 8455606

I annealed brand new Starline brass like that. Without annealing there was obvious seating pressure variation. After annealing I could not feel any variation. SD's were below 10 consistently.

 

[B y r o n]

View attachment 8492164

Side - comment.

My first misadventure with the AMP device.

*** Push button ***

Nothing happen! Me try again!

*** Push button ***

Stoopid machine! Nothing happen!

*** Push button ***

Still nothing happen! Machine is scam! So useless, only make brass holder hot…

NOTE: Above done in rapid succession.

*** Seats bullets in disgust ***

Stooopid machine!… Is deceptive! Much deceptive! Treacherous!

Looking at your pictures it looks like the case mouth was smashed against something and the shoulder was deformed in the process. How is this the cause of the annealer?

Maybe some more information about cartridge used, dies, bullets, and anything else that might lead to determining the cause of your problem.

 

[Edsel]

Looking at your pictures it looks like the case mouth was smashed against something and the shoulder was deformed in the process. How is this the cause of the annealer?

The brass was subject to the same Induction Annealer setting at least thrice in rapid succession.

The brass was rendered that soft.

That’s how.

 

[B y r o n]

The brass was subject to the same Induction Annealer setting at least thrice in rapid succession.

The brass was rendered that soft.

That’s how.

So what was the case run into that collapsed the shoulders?

 

[Edsel]

That's when I decided to try the Glow Method. In a darkened room I would get the case necks to start to glow and then have them immediately drop out of the flame. That glow was not just on the inside as I can see the glow also on the inside as well just before dropping out of the flame.

To be honest - with our eyes having a resolution of only 0.1mm, 3 angular degrees, and much cruder measures in other areas…

I seriously doubt our eyes are any better at discerning any differences in glow; we’re not Japanese swordsmiths who’re totally Zenned out in their craft and can actually tell the difference…

I think we’ll have to chalk this one up to bubbatech or bubbalore