Does Sniper's Hide really need the constant flow of LE bashing?

[LRShooter101]

As the title says, what say you as the members of this site, in regards to the steady stream of topics and comments aimed at questioning the actions of Law Enforcement?

I am throwing this out because:
- I was just at a Regional Level LE Conference where this site was brought up for discussion, and while there were a number of LE snipers singing its praises, there were also a number of LE personnel questioning what some of the real motives were among some of the membership? As someone who works with LE on a daily basis, many of whom are regulars on this site, I can tell you that many of them are starting to take an exception to the "LE bashing" that is going on here.

- Given some of the comments that were just made in a topic about "justification" for the recent shooting of the PA Troopers (fortunately it was deleted), I could see some of them seriously coming out against participation here.

Here is just one example of some of the comments being made here:
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/bear-pit/270374-canadian-govts-warning-their-citizens-visiting-us.html

And yet people wonder why things like what happened to some PA troopers.....happen.
I'm not condoning murder. But the fact is that when people in authority push on the wrong guy, pushback happens.

Per Frank's response in one of these "LE Bashing Fests", it is my understanding that this material is not welcome here, however it would seem that some individuals are not getting that message?
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-bolt-action-rifles/265791-tango-51-kills-armed-assailant.html

First Off, I want to say, this site prohibits attacking departments, LE, or .gov as we host a lot of these agencies and the officers who work for them. So you guys who are trying to make some BS Political Point against them will be banned when I get home tomorrow. We support the departments and officers every bit as much as we support Military here on SH. . . . . . SNIP . . . .

I shouldn't have to repeat myself over and over, no attacks against LE, the Military, .Gov, etc...it's all part of the no politics rules of this site. We have dedicated sections to help out these guys, and for them to see members dog piling on their work is crossing a line. I would rather have 3 of them then 30 of you, that is easy. If you don't like the rules here, please leave. it's very simple, have some intestinal fortitude and log out and do not come back. Show self control and stay away if you are against the foundations this site was built on.
. . . . SNIP . . . . .

I can appreciate people's concern on issues like 2nd Amendment infringement, questionable law enforcement actions, etc, but is there really a need for those issues to be debated here?

So that brings up the question, what do you think about these questionable topics, and the potential fall out for them being here?

I would like to thank Frank and the Moderators for what they have done to try and address this issue.

 

[LRShooter101]

Why does any discussion about what is "supposedly" happening to Canadian Tourists visiting the US need to take place here? What exactly does that topic have to do with Sniper's Hide?

IMHO, NOTHING! so it has no business here.

I can appreciate that many of these topics are posted in the Bear Pit, which is a catch all, however I can't also appreciate that it is frequently used as a "gateway/segway" to post topics that start questioning or bashing the actions of LE.

Frank has made it very clear, Sniper's Hide is NOT the place for members to question the actions of Law Enforcement, so why does it continue to happen?

IMHO, it continues to happen because certain individuals are using this forum to promote their view points which have absolutely nothing to do with Long Range Shooting which is why this website really exists.

As the old saying goes "there is a time and place for everything". If you would like to discuss issues NOT related to Long Range Shooting, that are of a Govt, Political, Religious nature, please feel free to do so, just understand Sniper's Hide is neither the time or place to do it!

My agenda is simple, I am trying to protect the credibility of this site as a resource for Snipers, specifically LE Snipers.

When you have members constantly questioning, attacking, and berating the actions of Law Enforcement here, that credibility is gone, and that is what I am trying to address.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Content deleted.

 

[Pritch]

absolute power corrupts absolutely
now power shouldnt be abused ever
we werent there to see or hear exactely what happened
loss of life on a political margin is futile
i would b asking what were the motivations for the act of shooting at LE
that is either he had a grudge against the first victim the second victim may have been just to wound so the individual could get away i hope they find him and quesion him so as to know as to y so an understanding can be found

to all law enforcement that i have ever seen all i ask is for them to be reasonable as i have to b workin as security

 

[rw496]

The ability to question and hold accountable the Government at all levels is a fundamental right and essential to American democracy...just don't do it here. Frank and others have made it clear that this website is about shooting and isn't the place to express your contempt for the American Government or the police. There are plenty of websites and plenty of people who would love to talk all day and night about the police...one of them is hiding in the woods in Pennsylvania right now.

 

[Darkside-Six]

This is why I try to stay out of the Bear Pit as much as possible. I come to this site to learn what I can, maybe help a little with what I can, and converse with other shooters about shooting. If I wanted to keep up with current events then I'll go to a news website.

 

[orkan]

I think everyone can agree that criminals should be caught, and imprisoned, or worse.
I think everyone can agree that non-criminals should be left alone.

The problem comes when an individual, decides to "interpret" the law in such a way that turns a non-criminal, into a criminal. Once that conversion has taken place, there seems to be a massive disconnect from reality on both sides of the fence. I hate to break it to you guys... but everyone reading this, is a criminal. I guarantee you that you've all broken laws today. At least 1... if not 10. Every single one of you. Soak that in for a moment.

The problem with these discussions on the Hide, is the same problem with these discussions everywhere else. The thing that actually needs talked about, never gets talked about. Instead, those involved in the discussion, are busy getting entrenched on their side. Everyone realizes there is strength in numbers, so the focus becomes getting more numbers, instead of solving the problem. If it's not the "blue wall" on the cops side, then it's the "tan wall" or whatever the hell you want to call it coming from the citizens side.

The problem, is people. Cops are people. Citizens are people. ...and more than ever before, people are disgusting despicable fuckn animals that aren't even deserving of their next breath, much less the money and possessions they feel entitled to. Society is sick. Bad cops, and bad citizens are a logical result of that sickness. Individuals are not responsible for themselves, or anyone around them. When someone steps out of line, people expect some asswipe politician to create a LAW to fix it... instead of getting a few people together and straightening them out. The entire system from the top to the bottom is totally corrupted and mutated. Cops are the physical extension of that corruption that interfaces directly with the citizenry... so of course they are going to catch all the shit from both sides. This will turn good cops, bad... and bad cops, good. If I were a cop, and walked into a room full of welfare rapists and their kids, being trained to be the leaches of the future... I'd drop a grenade in that room and not lose a seconds sleep over it.

The problem isn't the cops. The problem isn't the citizens. The problem is the individuals that make up those groups, and the continual downward spiral of the behavior of those individuals.

 

[Philotimos]

Life s a double edged sword. If members are allowed to post the positive actions of a LEO shouldn't people be able to post negative actions? I guess it all comes down to how the Owner of this site sees it.

 

[QuickNDirty]

The problem is the individuals that make up those groups, and the continual downward spiral of the behavior of those individuals.

Pretty tough problem to solve...

 

[Doc68]

Maybe, just maybe LE is finally getting the point to police their own. More and more everyday we hear about police corruption or a bad shoot. Or LE just overstepping their boundaries. Look I get it there are bad people out there. But to have the us VS them attitude all time doesnt help their cause. Police should be making sure they are on the up and up. They are public servants, and should realize they are always in the limelight.

 

[orkan]

Pretty tough problem to solve...

You think? Actually its pretty damn easy once you decide to do it. Make people feel the weight and pain of their actions.

 

[kmussack]

This is an important issue..........it just doesn't belong here.

 

[orkan]

This is an important issue..........it just doesn't belong here.

I found it kinda strange that the OP started a topic, on a topic he doesn't want to see here. lol... but oh well.

 

[LRShooter101]

Since some people can't seem to get past this, here you go, THERE ARE DIRTY COPS, yes I said it.
One of my best friends works in PIU (Public Integrity Unit), and yes he has plenty of work. However, contrary to the popular belief of many here, their are Officers who are questioned, investigated, disciplined and fired on a regular basis. Yes the LE community has an issue, as posted above Cops are people, and there are good ones and bad ones, no different than any other part of society.

That all being the case, since when is it the "charge" of this website to address the issue of "questionable govt or law enforcement practices"?

Answer, this website was NEVER intended to address those issue, as written/spoken by its owner/operator.

Therefore, why do certain people believe that they should have the right to discuss whatever they deem appropriate here, especially when it is in direct violation of the website's policies?

Since some of you may need a more clear picture, I have always advocated that this website (its content), and Frank's training materials, be included in any LE or MIL sniper training programs that I am involved with. Up until recently I have never had anyone disagree with me on that recommendation. Per my comments that started this thread, that is NO longer the case, and I am now being actively challenged on the value of this website. That is not entirely due to this issue, but also due to the fact that a growing majority of members/posters here have absolutely nothing to do with any formal Long Range Shooting profession or discipline, and it is showing in the material that is frequently being posted here.

As such, those of us who have a vested interest in a formal Long Range Shooting profession or discipline can try to work with Frank and the Moderators to see what this site maintains it credibility as an authority on Long Range Shooting, or we can idly stand by while some members try to turn it into the hangout and mouthpiece to push whatever anti Govt or LE agenda they see fit. I am choosing to no longer idly stand by.

As someone posted above, we should regulate ourselves and stick to discussing topics related to Long Range Shooting. We should not need Frank or the Moderators to have play babysitter to keep the off-topic, non-professional, credibility damaging material off of the site.

I respect Frank, this site, and many of the members here, and I would like to keep this site and it's membership as a respected resource for the LE & MIL Sniper Communities.

Sorry, but unfortunately there is no conspiracy, new world order, dominate the people, trash the Constitution, plan in play here, just an old Sniper who would like to see SNIPER'S HIDE remain just that.

 

[orkan]

Personally, I'd question the motives and intelligence of anyone questioning the value of this website, based on 0.001% of the total content here, which they happen to not agree with. Not very logical... is it?

You see the world the way you see it. Not all of us agree with you. You act like there is no mechanism for which to enforce the rules of this site. You see a post you don't like... report it to the mods. Simple. Starting a thread about the topic you don't want talked about is hardly the mechanism. Yet I'm left to wonder, if everyone was saying nothing but good about cops... would feel the subject was taboo and shouldn't be talked about here? My bet is that it's only the bad you don't want mentioned, and would be totally fine with the good.

I have a 2yr old and a 4yr old. I don't have the luxury of expecting the world to be setup that way around me. I embrace it for the way it is, and can easily decide for myself what I like and what I don't like on an individual situation basis, and respond accordingly. I want to know about the bad, and the good. Frank specifically stated no outright cop bashing was allowed. I don't see much of that going on since... but clearly you are still taking exception to things being said, so why not take that to the appropriate channels?

This isn't an echo chamber. Snipershide has a VERY high percentage of independent men capable of critical thinking, so don't expect everyone here to agree with you just because you think the way you see the world is right.

 

[FS1]

When any group gets a pass, or asks for one, reading between the lines is 3rd grade material.
In everything "law" there is the letter, and there is intent, it's how the balance of those two are perceived that brings out the supporters an bash'ers. In America no group gets a pass just because, if they did would ISIS, be next?

I don't think the OP is asking for a pass. There is a big difference between constructive discussion and just plain festering hatred. I for one would love to see the rap sheets (if any) on the folks who get a bit carried away. Then maybe we could see both sides of the coin so to speak.

I doubt any more injustice happens now then happened in the past. If anything maybe it happened more in the past. But with the Internet and the 24 hr news cycle every thing comes out now big and small. Our system works, maybe not instantly, but it does work. Wrongs eventually get corrected and yes we are a big part of that. But in order for the system to work it must be respected even when its hard.

All you internet Patriots who think the problem is at crisis, should be going to every town council meeting and standing up and speaking your mind. Demanding accountability and professionalism in your Police Department. Demand citizen oversight and then volunteer to be one of those who does.

But I bet none of you do because that would be too hard. Its easier to go on the net and bitch than to actually do something. Are there real problems that can be addressed? Yes there are. But killing the baby because it has a fever seems extreme to me.

 

[Lowlight]

The problem is,

1. Guys who are banned for this stuff and continue to post, never learning their lesson. They blame me for being banned after they break the rules. From that point forward they consider it a badge of honor to get banned again. Or push the envelope to see if they get banned.

2. These same guys know when we are doing other things, they post more because they know they'll get away with it. The mods don't live on here and we certainly do miss a lot the posts. Once a post has a fair amount of traffic or has been up for a while, we generally ignore it. That is not accepting it, only not wasting our time with it.

3. People who know better but feed the trolls and respond to them. If you know it is against the rule instead of adding to it, report it.

4. Me being too lenient for some, Maggot being one of those who needs to be permanently banned for posting off topic bullshit

Don't feed the Trolls, report the post and if we catch it soon enough, the next step to ban them permanently.

I have made my feelings perfectly clear, there should be no gray area when it comes to politics and attack LE.

 

[catswithguns]

Geez, Maggot, I hate to see you leave. I'll bet less than 1% of the individuals signed on here ever post. About half of those are selling stuff.

Anyway, just realize that the country we knew when we were young is never coming back. It's in stage 4 cancer. So just do like I do, chill out and enjoy what time you have left.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Cats

 

[Philotimos]

I only come here cause VeerG makes me laugh.

 

[valkyries]

If Maggot is on the verge of being permanently banned for posting " off topic b.s.", then I'm guessing a lot of other people are too. Personally I think the op is a bit sensative, as I don't see much L.E. bashing going on around here at all. Even the quotes the op posted I didn't take as L.E. bashing. But then again I am not L.E. Im a delivery driver. When a thread comes up about UPS or Fed Ex not delivering packages, do I get my feelings hurt? No, of course not.There's good ones and bad ones. All I can do is be one the good ones. The bear pit: general site discussion?

 

[my human host]

I'm not going to tell anyone else what they should or should not post. Not my gig.

I will say that some of the people I've come to respect since joining here are cops. I think we would be diminished if they said "fuck it" and stopped coming around.

I would also imagine many Hide sponsors do a fair amount of business with federal, state, and local law enforcement.

 

[pteranadon]

I, for one have and will support LE and military. I have supported them on yahoo feedback crap where there is always some dumb ass thugs/punks/kids thinking they know the laws and every LE is crooked. I have gotten a lot of crap for the support I have given them. Simple minds won't change who I am.

 

[thejeep]

I'm 31 yo and my father brought me up to respect the police because they are here to help and have a tough job.
I would like to pose a few questions. Did any one at the conference take a moment to discuss why a bunch people with similar interest, shooting, who are more or less law abiding, as evidenced by their ability to own firearms, would be cop bashing? Was there any discussion on a pr plan to change that? Why is it ever ok to curb speech/ flow of ideas?
Most times it is pretty easy to look in and decipher between oh here's some asshole spouting off, and oh that makes a lot of since. Without the need to discredit an entire source of info. I mean it's the internet not Harvard.

Ps this post was not meant to bash any of the following, included but not limited to: fathers, sons, cops, tough jobs, people who pose questions, conferences, shooting, people who are more or less law abiding, firearms, discussions, speech, ideas, assholes, Harvard, et al.

 

[hunterb]

I feel it's because of modern technology police officers are under 1000x more scrutiny than they were before. Hard to be perfect 100% of the time.

Also, when did LEO's become robots that never make mistakes? They are held to a rather high standard.

That in addition to any story of police abuse tends to spread like wildfire on social media sites, and you have increased cop bashing everywhere. Just my opinion...

 

[KYpatriot]

This site has more patriotic, liberty minded, enthusiastically American participants than any site I have ever participated in. It also has the best info on the web on the art of precision shooting. These populations are one and the same.

Maybe the question the OP and his buddies at the conference should ask themselves is why so many participants on this site, so many enthusiastic participants in the gun community, and many former military are, in the OP's words, "LE bashing." Seriously. This site probably has a higher percentage of stand up American patriots and men of character and principle than any I can think of on the web. If my profession was losing respect in that audience I'd be very concerned. Maybe the answer to that question ought to be debated elsewhere, but if I were the OP I'd be far more concerned about the fact such a perception exists in the first place than appealing to the mods to avoid getting my feelings hurt while perusing the bear pit for sniper information.

 

[eli polite]

I have taken part in a few of those topics. My stand point has always been i have a lot of respect for law enforcement in general so much so that when i see those that do injustice to that institution it PISSES ME OFF ! In no way does my disgust for bad behavior overflow on to the general population of LE. The real problem is that the public in general is getting tired of poor behavior on the part of ANY ONE! and the outrage is magnified when its by those that take an oath to protect and serve. We can talk about morons that shoot up malls or about the grand father that shot all his grand kids in Florida a few min ago. We just cant bring up LE may be because it will hurt some feelings or something I don't know. I can tell you that if you dont want to fix problems than don't talk about it.

In all reality this forum has a large audience of LE most of witch if not all are great people. So having real conversations with people in the LE community can be extremely helpful to the LE community. Instead its taken as bashing and there is a root to the problem a disconnect from the community and those that ares supposed to serve that community. Instead of being butt hurt over it and taking it as bashing why don't you listen to what is actually being said? Its fine to have an entire thread dedicated to the LE community on here. I just wonder how it would be taken if there was a thread where no LE were allowed? There is a disconnect between LE and those they are supposed to protect and serve the sooner you figure that out and start to pay attention the better. It wont happen by having thin skin there are a lot of people pissed off at bad behavior and they will only shut the fuck up for so long. I am sorry that LE dose not want to here it and there feelings get hurt so easy. On the same note the public in general needs to learn how to have a productive conversation the road go's both ways

 

[Phylodog]

I've been around here for a few years now as well as several other gun related forums. The Hide has always had some spirited discussions in reference to LE but it's also been less frequent here than other forums. I've learned a tremendous amount from this place over the years and met a handful of the best men I know through this site. I learned long ago that providing an insiders perspective was neither appreciated or helpful so I just leave it alone. My back button is pretty easy to click allowing me to move on with minimal effort.

 

[orkan]

I feel it's because of modern technology police officers are under 1000x more scrutiny than they were before.

So are citizens.

 

[ArmyJerry]

I agree with 99% of the comments above, I think the OP was a bit disturbed at some of the comments made about the young trooper in Pa that was assassinated by a cowardly SOB, I have to agree with him on that. Some of the comments were impugning the young dudes character before the facts were in, hell the facts that are known point to a nut case killing random cops, this is not good for civil society in general. The 0.01% of bad cops out there does not give license to shoot random cops that are most likely just like most of us. Citing a particular case like the one in New Mexico and bashing that cop and even the department is understandable, but being categorizing some kid just starting or in the early to mid part of his career got what he deserved by getting shot by this cowardly SOB is just not right, it wouldn't be right for Joe civilian either so practice h=what you preach when criticizing the police, each cop is different and each case is different.

For the OP, who has seemed to be a level headed guy in all the posts I have read of his, the burden of getting back the automatic respect and trust of your natural supporters is on you and your fellow officers. Something is amiss in our civil relationship in this country and the damage needs to be repaired or it will only be bad for the guys and gals in blue as well as our citizens and our liberty in general, you are the ones that are the deciders of the future path, please live up to your oath.

 

[RHunter]

Since some people can't seem to get past this, here you go, THERE ARE DIRTY COPS, yes I said it.
One of my best friends works in PIU (Public Integrity Unit), and yes he has plenty of work. However, contrary to the popular belief of many here, their are Officers who are questioned, investigated, disciplined and fired on a regular basis. Yes the LE community has an issue, as posted above Cops are people, and there are good ones and bad ones, no different than any other part of society.

I think you answered your own question as to why. I think the bashing is being directed at the actions of those bad cops. We all hear the stories in the media about police brutality, no knock raids gone wrong, SWAT raiding the wrong hose and killing the family dog... and now we see our COPS driving down the road in MRAP's dressed like they are going to war when in fact they are on their way to serve a warrant to appear for unpaid parking tickets.

This militarization of our police force is responsible for a lot of the problems. When I see an MRAP I don't think protect and serve, I think seek and destroy because when I dressed like that, that is what we did. That was the attitude we had and don't tell me the guys on SWAT teams don't feel the same way.

Now that I am at a place in my life where I live among the average citizens I understand their disdain for Law Enforcement. It's not all cops, I have some friends that are cops and they are great guys (older cops) and I also know a few that are really really screwed up. They have been dealing with the shit of society for so long that they are starting to get to the point where anyone but a cop is the shit of society. They are drunks, they beat their wives, the pop anti-depressants like M&M's... If you are a cop, you know the guy I am talking about.

I think something that also contributes to the bashing of cops is how people are treated by them when they get pulled over for a burned out tail light. Before I moved to Australia cops seemed to be pretty cool about most stuff. If you got pulled over for speeding or whatever it was like "Hey whats the rush? If I catch you again I am going to give you a ticket, have a good day" When I came back and get pulled over its 50 questions and you are made to feel like a sub-human citizen for having a burned out tail light.

So the way I see it, if cops are so concerned about how they are being bashed in public forums, they need to have a look at why they are being bashed and loose the bad ass attitude when pulling someone over to give them a citation for something stupid. I think departments need to get rid of this military hardware given to them by the Pentagon so people don't feel so intimidated, and try to do a little more community outreach. And quit being dickheads when you pull someone over or called out for some disturbance. Just because I am speeding does not make me a bad guy.

I serve on a board for a condo community where I own a rental unit and we had a situation where the police should have been called and I asked the resident complaining to the board why she did not call the police and she said I don't like dealing with those assholes. The woman is 60 years old! Think about that fellas. People rather not call you because they rather deal with the bullshit than have to deal with your attitudes.

I used to be a big donor to our local Sheriffs organization until we had one of those no knock raids gone wrong locally and I witnessed all the BS that went on to cover the whole thing up through what was told to me by my (older) cop friends. Then I had my car searched once because the K9 said there was dope in my car and I don't even smoke cigarettes. My shit was all over the place, the car was a disaster and all the cop said was, Gee I guess the dog got it wrong laugh laugh.. I wanted to bust him in the mouth right there.

So look fellas (directing this at the LEO's reading this) this goes both ways. You know who the assholes are in your departments, you know the jokes and wisecracks that contribute to the problems, you know there is a lack of community outreach that gives you guys a more human element, and you know there are a lot of you with God complexes. And you all know a couple cops that shouldn't be cops but you all like to take care of your own and cover that shit up. So unless you can come up with a magical way to change the public's new-found perception you are going to have to deal with this BS. Bad attitudes when dealing with the average mom late to pick her kids up from school does not make you seem like you are a good guy.

As far as the BS in the forum:

The success of this form is not because of the information offered about our craft. Lets be honest here. The success of this forum and why there are over 100,000 registered members is because of all the USELESS shit published on it and the fact that Frank tolerates that useless shit because without it, there would be less than 1000 threads if you don't count the sales section and some decent threads about optics. The rest of the stuff published here is garbage but people enjoy participating in the conversation, the fellowship, and bitch slapping, and that is what the Hide has going for it. Take that away and this forum is no different than the other 50 out there reasonably worth a shit that are more strict than this one is.

This summed it up pretty nicely:

Options & Accessories For Sale,... 29,660 threads

Sniper's Hide Rifle Scopes,... 23,090 threads

The Bear Pit,... 12,477 threads

The most important forum to/for a sniper,----------> Field craft,... 962 threads

When it comes to shooting there is not much said anymore that has not been said already. You can pretty much answer your own questions if you are willing to search the older threads. The most entertaining part is calling all the dumb asses, dumb asses.

 

[LRShooter101]

Well lets see, pretty long list of issues, so here goes nothing:

- The Bear Pit & Maggie's, nothing wrong with off topic discussions, that is obviously why those areas exist. That being the case, off topic does not open the door to political, govt, or religious based topics, nor should it lead to attacks on certain groups like MIL & LE. That point has been well beaten to death by now, however it would seem that some people still don't get it for whatever reason?

- LE Issues With The Site, while it is obviously not the sole motivator of this site, if you pay any level of attention, there is a steady stream of topics and comments that question and bash the Govt and LE communities. It may not be hundreds of topics every month, but it is enough that there is always something going on. Thanks to the efforts of Frank and the Moderators, many of these topics and comments are quickly quashed, so many members here never know of their existence. Prime example was the recent "train wreck" where certain people felt the need to question the recent shooting of the PA Troopers, and went as far as to imply "that maybe they just deserved it". Not to also mention that when I responded to the garbage in that topic, that I was called a hall monitor,snitch, and told to mind my own business. Fortunately it was deleted quickly (yes I reported it), because I can only imagine the damage done if that would have made it into the LE circles. You do not have to spend long here to recognize that there are a number of individuals here who have a significant level of contempt for any authority figure and are pushing agendas that have absolutely nothing to do with Long Range Shooting. That being the case, it can create a number of issues for LE members. Why would you support or participate in a Forum that attacks you and your profession? Why would you open yourself to the liability of participating with that group of individuals? Simple answer, you don't, and then this Forum loses as a result of those members withdrawing their participation and support.

- Patriotically Flying Your Flag, hate to brake it to some people, but I am pretty sure that I have as much claim to "Patriot Status" as anyone else. About every generation of my family has fought for this country since day one. I am a bonafide/certified/card carrying Son of the American Revolution thanks to my ancestors who fought in the Revolutionary War. My Grandfather (WW II), my Father (Vietnam), and myself (Desert Storm) all served with the 101st Airborne Division. I have 29 years of SERVICE between the Military (3 combat tours) and Public Safety (I have worked EMS, Fire, & Police). I currently make my living instructing MIL & Public Safety personnel. Sorry, but I am not going to turn my back on my Brothers-In-Arms in the LE Community, just because a very limited few of them have chosen to act in a unacceptable manner. To do so, would be very unpatriotic IMHO. If others would like to disagree with that, then so be it, thanks to those who have SERVED, you have that right.

Having said all of that, I have brought this issue up as I felt that it was warranted, I have expressed my view points on it, I have responded to counterpoints, and ultimately given that Frank has spoken (Thank You!, message received), I will leave it at that!

 

[augnmike]

I tried so hard not to post on this or the thread on the state troopers who were shot for no reason other than a nut with some firearms decided to do something horrible. Instead I hear speculation, within hours of the crime that maybe the cop that was killed was fucking the guys wife, and perhaps all the evidence the cops had was possibly planted in the guys vehicle, and that maybe the suspect wounded the one cop because he was not fucking his wife. Seriously people?**Come on just take your anti government, cops are an extension of wanting to take all our rights away hats off for a minute. I am tired of saying it but I was a cop for 34 years, finished as a chief of police. Not sure but just as you know way more about your line work, I know way more about mine then you do. WE HAVE SOME BAD COPS, OK, GET IT? We deal with them by firing them and prosecuting them when appropriate. It's not a perfect system, but it's pretty damn tight. 12 million arrests per year, 420 officer involved shootings. What business can post stats like that? That's why the Ferguson shit pisses me off. But frankly when I come here and hear nonsense about maybe this young dead officer, a former Marine who served two tours in combat and has a wife and babies was possibly fucking some nut jobs wife (by the way the guy was not married, just crazy) then frankly I find many of you to lack credibility and I see you as not part of a solution but rather part of the problem. I get that cops have to have thick skin to put up with the shit the public sometimes offers up, but I'm retired now so for anyone who wants to throw out wild speculation and disparage good people for no good reason and worse yet without a shred of factual evidence well you can just fuck off.

 

[RHunter]

That whole crap that went on in that thread was really a low point for the Hide... There have been a few others, but that one ranked right up there. It was the exception, not the rule.

But like Jerry said, there is something amiss in our civil relationship in our society and I honestly do believe that the militarization of our police force has a lot to do with it. The new cops are not like the old cops. The old cops were, for the most part your friends (Corrupt ones aside) a lot of the new cops definitely have an attitude issue and it is that military mind. I am not so sure hiring a combat vet to be a cop is such a good idea.

In combat you feel like everyone is your enemy. You bring that kid home, dress him up in military gear and stick him in an MRAP on the streets of anytown USA... And he is a soldier again. He is going to influence the young cops that were not combat trained to think like he thinks because they are going to look up to him out of respect and his service.

Nope, I do not like the militarization of our police force one bit. That is bad ju ju and it is definitely contributing to the issue we are discussing.

 

[Shoottothrill]

+1 Rhunter you nailed it. Just once I wish a LEO would just give me a warning instead of a $220.00 dollar speeding ticket that takes away precious money from my family. First time Iv'e been pulled over in ten years and couldn't even get a warning. How would you feel cop, I felt like someone stole money from my family. I was going 58 in a 45 on a Sunday morning and the streets were empty. I just don't understand why when they know you haven't had a ticket in forever why they can't just give you a warning. I can't believe a ticket is $220.00 dollars in the first place. Should be $50.00 bucks.

+1 on military dress and vehicles these police departments are getting into, huge waste of tax payer money and completely unnecessary and its creating massive amounts of distrust between officers and the public. Starting to look like Nazi Germany right here in the good ole U.S.

You guys that wear the uniform need to look in the mirror and fix your own problems if you don't want people voicing negative opinions of you on the internet. The citizens are not just making this shit up. We all work 10 hours and day and have plenty of other life issues to keep us busy, we just want to be treated fairly and with respect by our Police Officers, if you were doing that then there wouldn't be a problem. The number of Police misconduct news videos are ridiculous, I saw a 19 year old college girl slammed in the face with a Police shield and an officer in full riot gear just for crossing the street down in Tuscon Arizona after a basketball game, the girl weighed all of 115lbs. and the Officer was over 200lbs. She was knocked completely off her feet and over a metal bench onto her back and hitting her head on the concrete, never even saw it coming. How do you think the public views such an action? What if that was your daughter?

I really hate talking about this on the Hide because I really love this site and all that I've learned from it. I know that we should not be talking about any of this on here and this is the last time I will, but you started this thread. Just remember that the publics perception whether it is real or imagined is still the publics perception, and how the Police are viewed by the public is a reflection of the work the Police are doing, and how they are interacting with the citizens. Want everyone to think your all Captain America, then start acting like it and get rid of all the bad apples that are making you all look suspect in the first place. You know who they are.

 

[augnmike]

Wow now we have stooped to "I got a ticket." So when the dpeartment gets complaints from citizens that they are sick and tired of speeders being given a pass and that when "someone is killed" from us eating doughnuts instead of enforcing the speed laws they will be sure to sue us, the flip side of that coin is "why didn't I get a warning?" Not sure how you win that one. Two other points citations have a direct effect on lowering the accident rates, period. It's been studied to death, it works. Secondly, fines are not set by police they are legislated.

Now a discussion of the "miliarization of LE" is worthwhile, we need to look at the impact of that trend. I know there are studies being conducted as to the impact and it's reducing/increasing risk and violence. Hopefully the results will lead to answers. I can tell you for a fact that the level of firepower used by criminals in 2014 compared to 1975 is exponential. That is a problem for LE and one we need to consider.

 

[TheGerman]

Don't care.

The only rules I have when it comes to the police:

- I don't trust the police
- I don't talk to the police
- I believe absolutely none of the bullshit the police try to tell me in order to get me to passively waive any rights to 'help' them regardless of the situation
- They do not have my best interests in mind
- Get a warrant

 

[Trevor300wsm]

There are so many points to be addressed here, on multiple levels, but I will refrain from voicing my opinion on most of them as I feel it would not add anything productive and only butt hurt the OP even more. I do not think I could say it any better than ArmaJerry, Rhunter, and Okran already have. Well said fellas.

I will say this however. People are influenced and form opinions on what goes on around them daily. They then take these opinions/views and apply them on a much larger scale, to what they see on TV and any other form of media. This is how one bad cop (or a group) doing some shady shit can so easily quickly turn into an overall contempt for LE in general. MOST of the public didn't just decide to hate cops for no reason, yes some did, but most didn't. There is a reason for this contempt towards LE and the LE community needs to realize that if they want it to change, its on their shoulders to win back the hearts of the population. We don't have to just give back respect because you say so.

Let me tell you about my "local" PD. I live in a small rural community with a population of maybe 2000 people. A large majority of which are farmers/ranchers. The town consists of nothing more than a small school, two gas stations, a newly built Dollar General, and a ATM. When I was in school (graduated in 98') there was no police at all. Occasionally you might see a county deputy or a Highway Patrol pass thru on a rare instance. There was no need for a "Police Dept". Well, things have changed in my little town. We now have a PD with 3-4 officers including the Chief. Bear in mind, we didn't have any increase in crime to warrant the PD. We just got them.....for whatever reason. These officers, including the Chief are guys I went to school with. These guys weren't very popular and were picked on some as kids. Now....since there is little if any crime in this small rural town, the cops have absolutely nothing else to do besides issue speeding tickets. Our town is now very well known as a speed trap. BUT....to the point of my ramblings. The cops (all 3-4) of them drive totally blacked out cars (2 cars and a SUV). They dress in OD green fatigues. They wear their badges around their neck on a chain like a agent. Ive even seen a couple of them with drop leg holster rigs. So, imagine how these bored assholes treat the average Joe farmer when they pull them over for a minor traffic violation. The few times there actually has been a domestic disturbance, its resulted in them ganging up on one guy, using excessive force, and always using pepper spray at the very least and willingly drawing their weapon when no threat to them exists.

Since it is a small town, word has gotten out that I am a "shooter" since I compete in matches and have a 1,200 yard range at my home. I was recently stopped and approached at the gas station by the Chief. He asked me what my opinion was of the .338 Lapua. After giving my opinion along with some rough ballistics, I asked why he was wanting to know? He then proceeded to inform me that the "Department" was in need of a "Sniper Rifle" for times when they might have to neutralize a long range threat. He told me they were going to purchase a .338L for this. Now, I cant put into words my feelings at that moment, but Fucking Idiot was used more than once in my response to him.

These guys think they are Soldiers........when in fact if faced with even a minor threat from a determined meth head, they'd shit in their OD fatigues and end up killing someone or themselves.

Back to my first thoughts........people form opinions on what they see around them daily. My community hates the local cops........therefore I would say a lot of them have a contempt for all LE now.

99% of the cops that I have encountered in the last 5-10 years (outside of my town) have this attitude that they are doing me some type of favor for being a cop. They act like their job was forced onto them, when in fact they applied for the position. They act like it is them against the citizens. Im just one guy with one opinion and that's not what created this problem, but there are hundreds of thousands more just like me out there that have a single opinion as well. Instead of getting pissed off and resenting the very people you signed up to protect and serve, take a look within and fix the real problem........yourselves.

Anybody watch an episode of Andy Griffith lately....?

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Double post

 

[Maser]

My feeling on the matter is being a cop is no different than any other job in the aspect of if you fuck up then you should be called out on it. Nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism every now and then. And let's not forget that us Americans value what little freedoms we have left and cops represent the authoritarian society that wants to remove our freedoms. So with that being said, it's a given that cops are going to get flack at sites like this where freedom is valued.

 

[Veer_G]

My feeling on the matter is being a cop is no different than any other job in the aspect of if you fuck up then you should be called out on it. Nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism every now and then. And let's not forget that us Americans value what little freedoms we have left and cops represent the authoritarian society that wants to remove our freedoms. So with that being said, it's a given that cops are going to get flack at sites like this where freedom is valued.

Wow. "Cops represent the authoritarian society that wants to remove our freedoms."

Has it ever occurred to you, "Habitrail," that cops, the majority, I'd like to think, are in a position to support and defend our freedoms as expressed by the Constitution and its Amendments? And taking a paycheck on the public dime isn't as easy as those outside the system would like to think it is. Instant experts have never had to wash the blood out of the back of an ambulance, or had to constantly deal with what happens to people either creating mayhem in the lives of others, or victims and families affected by outrageous tragedy. If you'd like to have an opinion that matters, take on some of the responsibilities of a public servant and then feel free to criticize.

 

[FS1]

"Militarization" It started with the FBI shooting in Miami, then the bank heist in Cali. Finally 9/11 happens and the full Militarization is complete. So why have the Police been Militarized...because the bad guys have been militarized. You guys are always talking about ISIL coming across the border....what should the police do? Greet them with .38 specials?

I have a question, this guy is likely some kind of long range shooter....Does that mean all long range shooters must be bad? If you answer no, then why must all cops pay for the actions of a few?

 

[BoilerUP]

I bear absolutely no ill will toward law enforcement, most are good people trying to get home to their families after doing a hard job that by its nature requires interaction with shitty people. If life had been different for me, I am likely to have gone that career route.

That said, I would have thought law enforcement officers would have thicker skin about shit posted on the internet, along with an elevated ability to separate wheat from chaff on this here forum.

One can have a legitimate discussion about macro issues relating to law enforcement as a whole, without it being anything close to "bashing". Use of force, militarization, and policies/procedures are and should all be fair game for the citizenry to discuss. On another forum I'm on, there was a rather heated discussion recently about a SoCal police officer that hit and killed a bicyclist while typing a response to a non-urgent question into his fucking computer WHILE DRIVING down the road, yet wasn't charged with violating the state's texting law...because typing into their computer is required and expected. Evidently, responding by typing into a computer is expected even while driving...despite having a radio on your shoulder and one mounted in the car. There were a few former LEOs that claimed that laws don't apply to them, they have superior training, it is VITAL they type on a computer RFN, while driving, even if solo in a patrol car...and they couldn't understand the basic fact that if I had been typing on a computer while driving down the road and ran over a bicyclist, my ass would have been in jail.

That's not "bashing", that is legitimate discussion about driving while distracted and agency procedures that increase risk to drivers and pedestrians for negligible added benefit to LE given the other communication means available to them that allows eyes on the road.

Obviously if somebody comes out with hateful anti-LE/government posts, the mods bust out the ban hammer and that's that...but squelching discussion because of butthurt?

No.

 

[clyde]

OP -

1) Love to hear your reply to trevor a few posts above.

2) Seriously, is your thesis in the original post "words hurt"?

3) Are you comfortable with the ways LE has changed since, say, the mid-80s?

4) Assuming we can all agree it is changing, when / where do you anticipate "tipping points" that you would be uncomfortable with?

5) This isn't cop-bashing; ER nurses, high school math teachers, social workers, tax collectors, and everyone else who takes money to apply externally-created rules to the public needs to answer these questions... many of them have been doing so for some time now...

Bill

 

[jeo556]

"Militarization" It started with the FBI shooting in Miami, then the bank heist in Cali. Finally 9/11 happens and the full Militarization is complete. So why have the Police been Militarized...because the bad guys have been militarized. You guys are always talking about ISIL coming across the border....what should the police do? Greet them with .38 specials?

I have a question, this guy is likely some kind of long range shooter....Does that mean all long range shooters must be bad? If you answer no, then why must all cops pay for the actions of a few?

You make some good points. Let me offer some differing opinions though.......

First off you mention that criminals have escalated the problem with more gun power and that police are just reacting to this escalation. I wholeheartedly agree with this idea. When a bank heist if going on in broad daylight and the actors are wearing full body armour as well as being armed with fully automatic assault rifles, the militarized response from the police is completely reasonable. What I think irks some is that police will respond to a "swatting" call with little or no actionable intelligence and kick a door in while using flashbangs and other military tactics. If you research the amount of SWAT type raids that have taken place in the US over the last 10 years there is a very scary trend which does not jive with statistics that violent crimes in the US are on the fall.

Speaking on lack of intelligence, SWAT teams now respond almost without question to any random phone call that states someone is holed-up somewhere with a gun. I sleep with a pistol on th night stand and a shotgun or carbine nearby. If I hear a bump in the night I take what action I feel is necessary to protect my wife and two children. What if a SWAT team gets the address wrong or acts on a BS phone call and kicks an innocent mans door in in the middle of the night, do you think that man is going to know that its the police and not respond to the possilbe aggression that threatens his family? Best case scenario, no one dies, worst case the homeowner dies trying to protect his family or kills a police officer and goes to jail for the rest of his life. I don't think that most poice SWAT officers give this idea much thought. If you want to conduct raids, intelligence should be overwhelming, vetted, and there should be no other option to secure or diffuse the threat. SWAT raids should be the absolute last resort, not some BS commando game that gets played night in and night out all over our country. In other words, these tactics are used entirely too much these days and without proper reragrd to public safety.

Not to be rude but your point about ISIS coming over the border and police fighting them with .38 specials is laughable to say the least. ISIS is a military force and should de handled by US military, not police.

To our second point about stereotyping police, you are theoreticaly correct. One bad apple doesn't make the whole department bad. But this reasoning goes both ways. Police stereotype people based on thier life expierences and people will stereotype police based on thier interactions with them. Bottom line is we all need to do a better job at respecting one another.

 

[FS1]

Not to be rude but your point about ISIS coming over the border and police fighting them with .38 specials is laughable to say the least. ISIS is a military force and should de handled by US military, not police.

I would ask who is gonna respond first? I would think it would be laughable to believe it will be the Marines, Etc.

And I do agree that its all about respect. At times I wonder if we as a people know how to respect anything anymore.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I would ask who is gonna respond first? I would think it would be laughable to believe it will be the Marines, Etc.

And I do agree that its all about respect. At times I wonder if we as a people know how to respect anything anymore.

I gotta feeling youre gonna bring up posse comitatus.

If its just a few, or even up to a few hundred, I think police should be able to handle it. If youre talking about them spilling over the border by the thousands heavily armed and taking ground, I think posse comitatus will be forgotten for at least a little while and it`ll be time to treat em rough.

 

[sharac]

What happened to "simply do not visit Bear-pit" if its content is not valuable to a long range shooting? How many times were there threads where celebrating some blownup Haji or deranged psycho and noone got a serious butt inflammation because of it and its also political in nature?

Let's not beat around the bush to much? Frank runs a business, that business or at least part of it is related to and/or needs both LEO's and other interested parties (or NOT wtf do i know and he can simply shutdown all the forums not related to long range shooting - i personally think this is more than just a "long range shooting forum" as membership is really varied from all over the globe and professions). I can imagine that (especially in today's environment) certain forum posts are interesting for LE and US gov in generally (hell if peoples IPHONES are interesting and data of little girls texting about boys is collected, most assuredly a place where competent long range shooters (some with strong opinions and characters - to put it mildly ) hang out IS so much more monitored) and that creates various problems which one has to deal with and that either cuts into business time or makes business difficult (obviously some LEOs are really hurt and consider information on facts around shooting somehow more relevant if given by suck up praising them as opposed to information given by someone who occasionally "bashes them" - as if information relevance is directly related to other information lying about). How many times do you get mockery and arrogance when asking in appropriate threads some info which is either considered to be dangerous to civil order, army or whomever (OPSEC OPSEC OPSEC!!!!! run for your life a wanna be terrorist is asking how to do his job - and most of the time question is in fact is public domain knowledge or common sense for example thread about evading a dog or shooting through holes or glass etc...) to give?

So perhaps before casting stones a hard and deep look into mirror would be in order....

 

[RHunter]

a newly built Dollar General

What is is with that company? I just bought a place out in BFE, 1 stop light, a gas station, a 1 person post office... and a brand new Dollar General... There is like 8 people that live "downtown"..

Anyway LRShooter101, you asked and I think you are getting your answers and it is not like we are making this stuff up. This is what we see from our side of the fence. It's not like we are forum shitheads with chips on our shoulders either. I know some of the guys commenting here and they are good solid respectable men. If they are complaining about LE then it is definitely the cops that have the problem.

augnmike, Thnak you for your service and we all can agree on the safety issue of speeding but 90% of people drive 10mph over the speed limit anyway and I don't know how many times I have seen patrol cars speeding... I also find it curious that insurance companies have supplied departments with more speed cameras than the tax payers have AND we know our legislators look at speeding fines as a great source of revenue. Like Shoottothrill said, the $220 is a little excessive. I got a ticket for not wearing a seat belt and it was $216. You think that pissed me off? I don't need a helmet when I ride my bike but I need to strap myself in when driving my BMW that has 16 fucking airbags. If I get into a wreck I'm going to need a knife, not to cut the seat belt, to puncture the 16 airbags so I can get the hell out of the car.

I am pretty much where The German is at. For the most part I don't see cops as good guys anymore. The way you guys say there are some bad cops and you imply they are the exception, not the rule, from where I am standing it is the other way around, I think good cops are the exception, not the rule. I am sure there are a few sheriff departments out there being run by some great guys but again, they seem to be few and far between anymore. The great thing about a Sheriff is he is elected. I wish Chief's of police were as well...

augmike, you also mention how the bad guys are armed more than they were 30 years ago but statistics don't really support that argument. Granted there is the odd case where you have an active shooter with a high power rifle but 99.9% of crimes involving a gun the gun is a handgun. That has not changed. 1923 Chicago gangs had more firepower than most criminals do today. So the average large department may have a REAL need for SWAT maybe once a year... the rest of the time, in order to justify having a militarized SWAT team, departments use them for serving warrants... no knock warrants where they shoot dogs, terrorize everyone in the house, throw flash bangs in cribs, and recover less than a quarter bag of weed. THAT is excessive and when I see that happen it really pisses me off and thoughts of the brown shirts in Germany come to mind.

Basically agmike, what you mentioned were the usual "talking points" most departments use to justify this stuff but the numbers don't really support the argument for militarized police.

Police departments for the most part do not have any respect for the average citizen anymore. The mentality they use to deal with the shit of society is the same mentality they use dealing with the average folk and the average folk take offense at being treated like shit when we are the ones working our asses off paying the taxes that pay your wages. We are becoming very resentful because of your behavior towards us and your militarization.

Maybe this thread can be part of someone's study. Maybe it should become mandatory reading for all departments if LEO's are truly concerned as to why "we" don't like them and bash them in public and look at them as the enemy.

 

[LRShooter101]

. . . . . Instead of getting pissed off and resenting the very people you signed up to protect and serve, take a look within and fix the real problem........yourselves . . . . .

Sorry, but it is a two way street, that has turned into a one way street, which is one of the reasons why we are where we are at. Where there is an issue with Law Enforcement, rather than the public trying to address the issue, they just say $#@% the Police! When the public says $#@! the Police, then the Police say $#!@ it, what can we do, and it is a downward spiral from there. If you and your neighbors in your community have a problem with your local LE, what have you done about it? The Police there were not just dropped off out of Black Helicopters, someone in your community hired them, and they answer to someone there, who ultimately answers to the citizens of your community. Is coming here and bitching about your local LE problems going to solve anything? NOPE!

Plenty of people who want to jump on the internet, whining and bitching about the Jackbooted Thugs ruining their lives, yet how many of them have made any effort to work with their local govt and law enforcement agencies to fix issues? Why do that, it is much easier to just jump on the Internet and join in a LE bitch & bashing fest!

I acknowledge problems exist, I acknowledge things need to be done, and so do the majority of Officers that I know. Hate, Contempt, and Distrust, are not going to fix problems.

Sorry, but IMHO bitching about what Law Enforcement is doing on Sniper's Hide isn't going to do a damn thing to fix the problems that do exist.

My feeling on the matter is being a cop is no different than any other job in the aspect of if you fuck up then you should be called out on it. Nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism every now and then. And let's not forget that us Americans value what little freedoms we have left and cops represent the authoritarian society that wants to remove our freedoms. So with that being said, it's a given that cops are going to get flack at sites like this where freedom is valued.

Nothing wrong with constructive criticism, but comments like "let's not forget that us Americans value what little freedoms we have left and cops represent the authoritarian society that wants to remove our freedoms" is the garbage that adds nothing to the value of this site, and goes towards discrediting it.

Some people here seem to forget that following the Sandy Hook shooting, when the all out assault was underway on the 2nd Amendment, that for every one LE Officer who spoke out for more gun control, that there were at least 4-5 speaking out saying they would NEVER enforce any action the violates the US Constitution. However rather than acknowledging that, and going after the LE Officers at the local level who would support attacks on the Constitution, it is much easier to just come here and throw all LE Officers under the bus as jack booted thugs who are ready to shred and burn the Constitution.

The frequency of comments being made here in regards to LE that have been completely beyond reproach, have zero factual basis, and will do nothing but discredit this site, are on the rise. Trust me when I say that it is being noted in some aspects of the LE Community thanks to topics like the "Tac Ops Bash Fest", and it may well lead to negative repercussions in many ways.

Finally, for the last time!

I have made my feelings perfectly clear, there should be no gray area when it comes to politics and attacking LE.

For those of you who still choose to ignore that, I will leave it to you and Frank / Moderators to work that out.

 

[RHunter]

Speaking on lack of intelligence, SWAT teams now respond almost without question to any random phone call that states someone is holed-up somewhere with a gun. I sleep with a pistol on th night stand and a shotgun or carbine nearby. If I hear a bump in the night I take what action I feel is necessary to protect my wife and two children. What if a SWAT team gets the address wrong or acts on a BS phone call and kicks an innocent mans door in in the middle of the night, do you think that man is going to know that its the police and not respond to the possilbe aggression that threatens his family? Best case scenario, no one dies, worst case the homeowner dies trying to protect his family or kills a police officer and goes to jail for the rest of his life. I don't think that most poice SWAT officers give this idea much thought. If you want to conduct raids, intelligence should be overwhelming, vetted, and there should be no other option to secure or diffuse the threat. SWAT raids should be the absolute last resort, not some BS commando game that gets played night in and night out all over our country. In other words, these tactics are used entirely too much these days and without proper reragrd to public safety.

That was Excellent!