So I am thinking about buying my first thermal mainly for hunting hogs and as a secondary use of finding wounded deer if on the rare occasion they don’t drop where they stand. I am thinking of going with the FLIR ThermoSight Pro PTS 536 4-16x50.
Night Vision Does thermal work in total darkness?
- Thread starter Steel+Killer
- Start date
This question makes me think you should review a little more about how they work and what works best for each scenario. Thermals are great for being stationary but pretty horrible if you are trying to move/navigate with them. Finding downed game is often hard because when an animal goes down in any type of brush seeing the heat signature can be troublesome. NV is much better if you are moving and WAY better for positive ID of your target, a little better for range estimation, but typically you need to have an aiming laser/NV compatible optic unless it’s weapon mounted.
If you can only have one I’d probably recommend NV just for multi-functionality.
If you can only have one I’d probably recommend NV just for multi-functionality.
I agree with sea2summit. You really want to understand the limitations and make sure it meets your needs.
For example, you aren’t going to be able to follow a blood trail with thermal. It gets cold too quickly and you’ve picked a 4x native magnification device which will have its own limitations (or benefits) depending on the distances and terrain you plan to hunt.
For example, you aren’t going to be able to follow a blood trail with thermal. It gets cold too quickly and you’ve picked a 4x native magnification device which will have its own limitations (or benefits) depending on the distances and terrain you plan to hunt.
Thermal doesn’t need/use any visible light...it detects heat emitted from an object in the infrared wavelength. Total darkness, extremely bright...makes no difference as long as you’re looking at objects with a variance in emitted heat.
I would check out the PVS 30s that are for sale that are refurbished. Might be a good option for you.
I had a Fair thermal scope. It was the optical power range version 1-4 IIRC and was really made to ride on a rifle.
It would help me find all sort of targets in total darkness, many of which were rocks. Yup, it reads heat and rock get hot all day. They don't cool off really fast either. I also found that having the thermal just exacerbated the need for having some sort of NV for navigation. That is when the thermal is of little value. All just my opinion and unknowledgeable observations. I hope whoever has it now is happy cuz I lost my ass selling it.
It would help me find all sort of targets in total darkness, many of which were rocks. Yup, it reads heat and rock get hot all day. They don't cool off really fast either. I also found that having the thermal just exacerbated the need for having some sort of NV for navigation. That is when the thermal is of little value. All just my opinion and unknowledgeable observations. I hope whoever has it now is happy cuz I lost my ass selling it.
I've had very good luck tracking with a SEEK Thermal adapter on my phone. No, it's not a FLIR, but it lights up like a christmas tree when there's an animal down in the thick stuff. It's not so much tracking the blood trail as just lighting up the animal itself. So, it's for those 'right at dark' kills vs. the "oh shit, that was a really bad gut shot and I'm gonna have to chase this thing all night".
As others have previously mentioned A LOT OF HOME WORK WOULD SERVE YOU WELL. I have only been in the (hunting game) with thermal & night vision for 5 years. Dig in do the research, this shit is expensive. I used thermal & N/V for 30 years afloat and thought I knew it all. Wrong answer, I did not know a fraction of what I have learned here on the snipers hide. The learning process never stops. Keep an open mind. Kill switch engage & Wig broke it down to the most elementary of terms for me. Scan with thermal shoot with NV, illuminate as required.
Thanks for everyone's response maybe I can explain my needs/wants a little better, I got a pretty good idea that for thermal to work your surroundings have to have variance in temperatures to show the contrasting temperature differences in what you are trying to view through the scope I understand that if every thing was the exact same temperature it wouldn't show anything. What I meant by "will it work in total darkness" is say in the woods is there enough of a temperature difference between the trees, twigs, branches, ground, etc. A scenario I would like to propose to you guys that have experience is this. I hunt in SC where I hunt is mostly farmland with fields that are usually planted in either corn, cotton, peanuts or soybeans, surrounded by woods, sometimes I may hunt a field stand where the shots could range from 100yds to 1000+yds (i usually don't shoot past 300yds) or I may hunt the woods where the shot is usually 100yds or less. Last year my buddy shot one of the biggest bucks he has ever killed and unfortunately he made a bad shot on it and we couldn't find it the night he shot it we tracked the blood trail for what seemed like 1000yds or more in the woods it was total dark we had our flash lights, but they were running low, the mosquitoes were about kill us and my buddy's glasses broke. It just turned into a bad night we searched for hours and then called it. We came back the next day and found the buck within about 50yds of where we quit looking. All we keep thinking was "damn if we had a thermal scope maybe we could have found him that night". Sorry this has gotten long, I know a thermal monocular would maybe work for that scenario, but I figured why not get a thermal that can be used as a rifle scope also. I know most people lean toward getting NV first, but I was leaning towards thermal am I wrong in what I want to use it for?
Ok I gotta ask is "Fair" a typo or is that what Flir is know as in the Thermal / NV world?.......LOl Kind of like a Bayliner boat we used to call them Prayliners......LOL I don't want the Prayliner of Thermals I thought Flir was top notch.
Auto-correct evidently is a fkn democrat.
I am in no way casting shade on FLIR. It served what purpose it had very well. I am just trying to say the thermal is not all you should have in your NV kit for best results.
Your on the right path to finding your way into the night.
Trivia note: Dollar Tree sells bottles of hydro-peroxide (aka-h202) for one dollar. Place this in an empty spray bottle. Spray over fresh blood spots and it foams up. This is helpful in the fall when the foliage is ripe with color. This should be in every first aid kit.
Trivia note: Dollar Tree sells bottles of hydro-peroxide (aka-h202) for one dollar. Place this in an empty spray bottle. Spray over fresh blood spots and it foams up. This is helpful in the fall when the foliage is ripe with color. This should be in every first aid kit.
Thermal is basically a whole new pair of eyes that see an entirely new class of 'light' energy: The blackbody radiation that all objects emit. Some objects emit more, thus they light up instantly in a thermal sight.
Interesting thing to note: On some of the survival forums in the past, several people mentioned covering one's self with reflective 'space blankets' that trap all body heat in order to avoid being detected by thermal imaging. One of the people on the board who owned a thermal sight did an experiment. He took a pic of his heat signature through the sight while wearing a mylar "invisibility cloak". Turns out, mylar not only traps the user's body heat inside, but also reflects all wavelengths of energy hitting it from the outside, so the surface emits far less blackbody radiation then let's say, surrounding rocks, trees, and vegetation. The photographer showed up as a man sized, clear dark smudge in the picture amongst the lighter gray of the surroundings. Thus, mylar is not a very efficient way of defeating thermal. If an enemy fighter with thermal equipment knows what's going on, he'd simply aim for dark silhouettes in his sight picture instead of the other way around.
By the way these things are expensive as all hell though, holy shit. Last time I checked a basic FLIR unit was $1100 minimum...
Interesting thing to note: On some of the survival forums in the past, several people mentioned covering one's self with reflective 'space blankets' that trap all body heat in order to avoid being detected by thermal imaging. One of the people on the board who owned a thermal sight did an experiment. He took a pic of his heat signature through the sight while wearing a mylar "invisibility cloak". Turns out, mylar not only traps the user's body heat inside, but also reflects all wavelengths of energy hitting it from the outside, so the surface emits far less blackbody radiation then let's say, surrounding rocks, trees, and vegetation. The photographer showed up as a man sized, clear dark smudge in the picture amongst the lighter gray of the surroundings. Thus, mylar is not a very efficient way of defeating thermal. If an enemy fighter with thermal equipment knows what's going on, he'd simply aim for dark silhouettes in his sight picture instead of the other way around.
By the way these things are expensive as all hell though, holy shit. Last time I checked a basic FLIR unit was $1100 minimum...
I can verify this story.
I’ve got about 15 years doing thermography on the high voltage electrical grid...my cameras are Flir units that range from 50k to 200k. Shiny new metal copper/aluminum make finding hot connections fun some times
.A reflective object, or in this case a Mylar blanket will emit very little heat...it will mostly reflect the heat radiated by surrounding objects. So if you’re standing in front of a shiny metal surface that’s 1000 degrees...you won’t see a 1000 degree object. You’ll likely see your 98 degree self holding your cam/scope looking back at it, along with the sky reflecting above/behind, along with anything else in the reflection. It’s basically like looking at a mirror with your naked eyes. I’ll break out one of my cams next week when I’m back in town and take a few photos showing this.
OP, sticks, trees, rocks, animals will all radiate heat differently, and at different rates. If you’re walking through the woods on a 100 degree evening, many things will appear similar in temperature but the sky behind will appear black/cold, and you’ll be able to distinguish between objects.
Scopes aren’t at the same level as the cameras I work with, but I can narrow down the level & span of my temperature range to make temps that are only a few degrees apart look drastically different or make my level/span so far apart that anything that doesn’t have a huge variance will look damn near the same. I’m assuming the more expensive and advanced thermal scopes allow you to set this level and span, but they may all be automatic where it adjusts to suit the objects you are primarily looking at.
But IR isn’t x-ray vision...you can’t see through objects (unless it’s one of the few materials that heat transfers through, such as germanium which IR units lenses are typically made from). So my point is, if your animal is down behind leaves, brush, trees, etc...you still won’t see it. You have to have a direct line of site still. But sometimes a leg peaking out from behind something is all you need to locate it.
Thank you actually thank everybody that has responded this really helps me out....I can verify this story.
I’ve got about 15 years doing thermography on the high voltage electrical grid...my cameras are Flir units that range from 50k to 200k. Shiny new metal copper/aluminum make finding hot connections fun some times
A reflective object, or in this case a Mylar blanket will emit very little heat...it will mostly reflect the heat radiated by surrounding objects. So if you’re standing in front of a shiny metal surface that’s 1000 degrees...you won’t see a 1000 degree object. You’ll likely see your 98 degree self holding your cam/scope looking back at it, along with the sky reflecting above/behind, along with anything else in the reflection. It’s basically like looking at a mirror with your naked eyes. I’ll break out one of my cams next week when I’m back in town and take a few photos showing this.
OP, sticks, trees, rocks, animals will all radiate heat differently, and at different rates. If you’re walking through the woods on a 100 degree evening, many things will appear similar in temperature but the sky behind will appear black/cold, and you’ll be able to distinguish between objects.
Scopes aren’t at the same level as the cameras I work with, but I can narrow down the level & span of my temperature range to make temps that are only a few degrees apart look drastically different or make my level/span so far apart that anything that doesn’t have a huge variance will look damn near the same. I’m assuming the more expensive and advanced thermal scopes allow you to set this level and span, but they may all be automatic where it adjusts to suit the objects you are primarily looking at.
But IR isn’t x-ray vision...you can’t see through objects (unless it’s one of the few materials that heat transfers through, such as germanium which IR units lenses are typically made from). So my point is, if your animal is down behind leaves, brush, trees, etc...you still won’t see it. You have to have a direct line of site still. But sometimes a leg peaking out from behind something is all you need to locate it.
BTW this is the buck my buddy and I couldn't find that night.........
This is a buck I shot last year, but mine usually drop...........LOL BTW I don't normally look that rough, but a few days of hunting and not much sleep or a razor will do that to ya......LOL
Last edited:
Thanks for the tip with hydro-peroxide another one of those why have I never thought of that......LOL
For finding animals like that that just pick up one of the $400-700 offerings by FLIR or Leupold, you don't need to identify anything or see more than ~100m you just need to see hot spots. You're likely using white light already so it's a non-issue. Now if you think you're going to enjoy carrying around your weapon sight size thermal to accomplish the same task have fun with that
Very well said.I can verify this story.
I’ve got about 15 years doing thermography on the high voltage electrical grid...my cameras are Flir units that range from 50k to 200k. Shiny new metal copper/aluminum make finding hot connections fun some times
A reflective object, or in this case a Mylar blanket will emit very little heat...it will mostly reflect the heat radiated by surrounding objects. So if you’re standing in front of a shiny metal surface that’s 1000 degrees...you won’t see a 1000 degree object. You’ll likely see your 98 degree self holding your cam/scope looking back at it, along with the sky reflecting above/behind, along with anything else in the reflection. It’s basically like looking at a mirror with your naked eyes. I’ll break out one of my cams next week when I’m back in town and take a few photos showing this.
OP, sticks, trees, rocks, animals will all radiate heat differently, and at different rates. If you’re walking through the woods on a 100 degree evening, many things will appear similar in temperature but the sky behind will appear black/cold, and you’ll be able to distinguish between objects.
Scopes aren’t at the same level as the cameras I work with, but I can narrow down the level & span of my temperature range to make temps that are only a few degrees apart look drastically different or make my level/span so far apart that anything that doesn’t have a huge variance will look damn near the same. I’m assuming the more expensive and advanced thermal scopes allow you to set this level and span, but they may all be automatic where it adjusts to suit the objects you are primarily looking at.
But IR isn’t x-ray vision...you can’t see through objects (unless it’s one of the few materials that heat transfers through, such as germanium which IR units lenses are typically made from). So my point is, if your animal is down behind leaves, brush, trees, etc...you still won’t see it. You have to have a direct line of site still. But sometimes a leg peaking out from behind something is all you need to locate it.
We use thermal imagers in the fire department a lot. Extremely tough, application specific and designed for extreme heat obviously. If you would be using it for searching, MSA, Draeger, and Scott saftey make some great ones. PD have even borrowed ours for finding scumbags hiding in the woods. Hope this helps. Oh and they definitely work in pitch black
yes designed for extreme heat..not so much for finding people or animals in woods. We have a Draeger 9000...(15000 dollar unit back when we bought it)...ive taken it out at night a couple times..resolution was horrible.its old I guess...you think you spotted something but its only a mouse on a tree ten feet in front of you. (there's a lot of mice in trees btw)!
I found using flashlights worked better then the Fire Dept thermal. It just confused us and cost us time. The backlight screws with your natural night vision....the downsides go on and on.
I would recommend the OP get his hands on a thermal and going out at night and trying it. I wanna bet he'd go the NV route instead if getting only one.
Fair. Havent tested it myself other than for intended use. Suppose the PD guys that borrowed ours were in a parking lot looking into the trees
if you can get thermal up high to find something then its awesome. But from ground level...not so much. I tried to find an 'animal' I had shot that was destroying our precious wine grapes with ours...looked all over..spent 20 min scanning everywhere.. finally when I was standing exactly where the 'animal' had dropped I saw a blip of light on the thermal. Thirty feet into the trees in a small low spot was the animal. Flashlights would've been much quicker!
Our local FD bought a 2000 dollar drone and mounted a 25000 dollar or so thermal on it. Very effective in open fields. In trees with any kind of foliage im sure it'd be worthless.
No clue.
But any FLIR unit I've used 'professionally' or have owned all had a few things in common:
- Overpromised, underdelivered specs/capability
- Customer service that was a complete fucking dumpsterfire
- Having to utilize customer service because something broke/didn't work
- Got rid of it and never looked back
My last venture was with the Breach. After that shit show, if I didn't learn my lesson before, I certainly did then. I know most of their attention is to .gov/.mil but we werent a fan of them either.
I've posted many times here on Thermal use vs NV, and I've posted a bunch of dead animal pics. I've used both systems hunting animals and lost people in a bunch of different scenarios. I keep hearing how NV is so much better for identifying the target.
I posted in a recent thread about the experience of guys looking for an armed person who had just killed one and shot two more.... NV wasnt cutting it at all.
I see the posts about illumination and remember the pre-scout posts on illumination that spooked game because of the different spectrums that different species reacted to.
I remember threads that got into why the mil went to thermal because of smoke, fog, dust, and other cover, and how the push went to blended tech for the best of both worlds.
And I've posted that the manufacturers have created warfare items that work pretty good in the desert but suck in any other venue...
People forget...
However, last night, I didnt have my spotter person.
Normally I drive with NV and he spots with helmet mounted thermal.
We park, and drive the cart about a half mile to fields. We drive through open woods and food plots.
In NV I see most of the natural objects, rocks, holes, down trees, and some highly reflective animals who are not in floral foliage cover, anything basically in the open, and or on contrasting background terrain.
The thermal sees the hot spots that indicate animals, and we stop and look with a bigger thermal and ID the "thing".
Yes, Jerry (Shoot4Fun), you have to learn silhouette identification with a thermal, tree, rock, other junk, like water in an old bucket left out.
Trying to use NV to look off a roadway into woods... not... adding illumination, a big blinding glare off the foliage. Another not...
Thermal will not see through wet foliage, neither will NV. Thermal will not see through glass into the dark room. Neither will NV. Illuminate the glass from the outside and hello blinding glare, you still cant see in with nv.
So, nv with illume, works real good in an open field with low grasses against animals that have never been lit up and threatened, having learned that death follows that eye irritation.
Last night. Alone, driving with NV. Dont see a single live animal. Stop and scan with thermal, deer, coon, possum, armadillo, rats, and birds, all within 20 yards of the road.
Drive on, repeat, same result. Stop on hill top overlooking big field. 2/3 moon, I can naked eye see the camo pattern on my clothes.
I cannot see any animals in field 300 yards out from me, naked eye, or w 10k $ NV. Field looks empty. I can see the tractor, the platform, the target frames, and the dead weeds in the soybeans. But no critters.
Thermal up, 65 deer..... couple of coyotes, some smaller blobs, rabbits or coon, not close enough to tell.
Move closer, change perspective, shadow fall. I can recognize a few deer and the yotes in NV in the bright open, but not the shadows.
Thermal, well hello you 65 feeders, rabbits, coon, and armadillo... Mr. Yote unassed the field. I could see him, he could see me. So could the deer. The deer shifted, maintaining distance.
Lighting deer, rabbits, coons, yotes, and pigs up with IR illume in our fields GUARANTEES they immediately leave. The survivors have seen over 600 of their buds die this year alone. 548 pigs, 45 coons, 27 coyotes, and a deer or so. All of this on crop damage permit on 850 acres of crops.
Change the angle again, and mr pig appears in NV and thermal....
Is true, ymmv, but our experience is consistent over the past 10 years...
I posted in a recent thread about the experience of guys looking for an armed person who had just killed one and shot two more.... NV wasnt cutting it at all.
I see the posts about illumination and remember the pre-scout posts on illumination that spooked game because of the different spectrums that different species reacted to.
I remember threads that got into why the mil went to thermal because of smoke, fog, dust, and other cover, and how the push went to blended tech for the best of both worlds.
And I've posted that the manufacturers have created warfare items that work pretty good in the desert but suck in any other venue...
People forget...
However, last night, I didnt have my spotter person.
Normally I drive with NV and he spots with helmet mounted thermal.
We park, and drive the cart about a half mile to fields. We drive through open woods and food plots.
In NV I see most of the natural objects, rocks, holes, down trees, and some highly reflective animals who are not in floral foliage cover, anything basically in the open, and or on contrasting background terrain.
The thermal sees the hot spots that indicate animals, and we stop and look with a bigger thermal and ID the "thing".
Yes, Jerry (Shoot4Fun), you have to learn silhouette identification with a thermal, tree, rock, other junk, like water in an old bucket left out.
Trying to use NV to look off a roadway into woods... not... adding illumination, a big blinding glare off the foliage. Another not...
Thermal will not see through wet foliage, neither will NV. Thermal will not see through glass into the dark room. Neither will NV. Illuminate the glass from the outside and hello blinding glare, you still cant see in with nv.
So, nv with illume, works real good in an open field with low grasses against animals that have never been lit up and threatened, having learned that death follows that eye irritation.
Last night. Alone, driving with NV. Dont see a single live animal. Stop and scan with thermal, deer, coon, possum, armadillo, rats, and birds, all within 20 yards of the road.
Drive on, repeat, same result. Stop on hill top overlooking big field. 2/3 moon, I can naked eye see the camo pattern on my clothes.
I cannot see any animals in field 300 yards out from me, naked eye, or w 10k $ NV. Field looks empty. I can see the tractor, the platform, the target frames, and the dead weeds in the soybeans. But no critters.
Thermal up, 65 deer..... couple of coyotes, some smaller blobs, rabbits or coon, not close enough to tell.
Move closer, change perspective, shadow fall. I can recognize a few deer and the yotes in NV in the bright open, but not the shadows.
Thermal, well hello you 65 feeders, rabbits, coon, and armadillo... Mr. Yote unassed the field. I could see him, he could see me. So could the deer. The deer shifted, maintaining distance.
Lighting deer, rabbits, coons, yotes, and pigs up with IR illume in our fields GUARANTEES they immediately leave. The survivors have seen over 600 of their buds die this year alone. 548 pigs, 45 coons, 27 coyotes, and a deer or so. All of this on crop damage permit on 850 acres of crops.
Change the angle again, and mr pig appears in NV and thermal....
Is true, ymmv, but our experience is consistent over the past 10 years...
N most Flir sucks..
The cores they sell to others are pretty good. No complaints with cores, outer packaging and other things can stand improvement.
And, fwiw on nv and ID....
People walking in the field. No problem. Too easy.
People wearing clothes washed w UV brightners, hello big glow. Looks like a glow stick.
Cordura straps on tactical gear, hello glow.
Black guns, Si' Si', see see.... helmet without cloth cover, ha, Si' Si', see see....
Dirty cloth cover, SEE, dirty or worn clothes with a sheen, SEE... polished boots, see. ...
Most really high dollar camo hunting rainwear, hello glow.
Average clean live deer, invisible 95% of the time in nv.
Pig, glows ink jet black, as long as it's in the open and not obscured by foliage.
jfwiw
The cores they sell to others are pretty good. No complaints with cores, outer packaging and other things can stand improvement.
And, fwiw on nv and ID....
People walking in the field. No problem. Too easy.
People wearing clothes washed w UV brightners, hello big glow. Looks like a glow stick.
Cordura straps on tactical gear, hello glow.
Black guns, Si' Si', see see.... helmet without cloth cover, ha, Si' Si', see see....
Dirty cloth cover, SEE, dirty or worn clothes with a sheen, SEE... polished boots, see. ...
Most really high dollar camo hunting rainwear, hello glow.
Average clean live deer, invisible 95% of the time in nv.
Pig, glows ink jet black, as long as it's in the open and not obscured by foliage.
jfwiw
Last edited:
Well here's a little wind up your skirt.
Try renting a NV or a thermal for the weekend.
It's usually right around a couple hundred bucks shipped right to your door.
When you do finally decide which one is for you your rental can be applied to the purchase price.
Believe me, it's easier than trying to borrow one, and a lot cheaper than buying one you don't like.
www.ultimatenightvision.com
Try renting a NV or a thermal for the weekend.
It's usually right around a couple hundred bucks shipped right to your door.
When you do finally decide which one is for you your rental can be applied to the purchase price.
Believe me, it's easier than trying to borrow one, and a lot cheaper than buying one you don't like.
Rentals - Ultimate Night Vision
Night vision and thermal scope rentals for night hunting, pre-purchase evaluation and more. We ship thermal night vision rentals nation-wide and can have a rental sent out same-day in most cases.
www.ultimatenightvision.com
My experiences match j-huskey. I drive with NV and have a friend spot with thermal. I see the animals close to the road but the thermal picks up 98% of everything else. We also don’t have issues with pos ID at a few hundred yards with the thermal. So the NV is really most useful for navigation. Once we get to a setup I primarily use thermal unless I just want to look around a bit. If I ever notice any type of movement in the NV I switch to thermal to see what it actually is.
Keep in mind that most of my terrain is high grass fields and woods. And pos ID for us is animal types. I don’t have a bunch of wild dogs running around with the coyotes, etc.
Keep in mind that most of my terrain is high grass fields and woods. And pos ID for us is animal types. I don’t have a bunch of wild dogs running around with the coyotes, etc.
Try your thermal in the daytime -- like tankers.
Flip between white- and black-hot. You may be surprised -- it's not a night-only tool.
Flip between white- and black-hot. You may be surprised -- it's not a night-only tool.
I do, the L3 works really good. The Trijicon ok, the cheapies, not so good, but daytime, absolutely gotta use the collapsible eye piece, absolutely no external eyepiece light allowed.
Adjusting the gain and contrast for daytime use, and find the compromise, and have fun.
For those who want to try it, remember the eyepiece.
Sorry for the late response but you just happen to have hit a topic that is similar to what I experienced. I do mostly thermal hunting for hogs in Florida. I started taking my Pulsar Thermal into the woods for pre-light spotting. It's actually amazing how much is around you just at dark and first light that the naked eye doesn't catch.
Last bow season, my 75yr old father shot a deer with a bow. We were close together so i immediately climbed down and headed his way. We had a good arrow and initial blood but it was getting dark in a cypress swamp fast. I ran back to my truck, got the thermal and saved about 30 minutes of slow tracking by seeing a dead warm deer in some thick brush in the distance.
Last bow season, my 75yr old father shot a deer with a bow. We were close together so i immediately climbed down and headed his way. We had a good arrow and initial blood but it was getting dark in a cypress swamp fast. I ran back to my truck, got the thermal and saved about 30 minutes of slow tracking by seeing a dead warm deer in some thick brush in the distance.
