Rifle Scopes Doesn’t add up

Lawless

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  • Feb 11, 2018
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    My Kidd 22 used to wear a PA 4-14FFP, these have roughly 30 mils total elevation travel (really awesome and repeatable mechanically). I used this scope to shoot out to 400 yards on a shoot, dialing up 19 mils (close to the max up left) and holding 23 using the reticle for one load.

    So this scope with 30 mils total, sitting on a 20 MOA rail ended up being roughly zeroed leaving 2/3rds of the total in up travel. About what I expected.

    Recently, I switched the PA onto my American Rimfire and put a used Argos 6-24x50 on the Kidd. Upon zeroing the Kidd, I only have 9 mils up left from 24 total. This makes no sense on a 20MOA rail. The scope isn’t even as good as centered optically apparently and being on a 20MOA rail to boot.

    Is this scope just optically not centered? The rings are decent and came with the scope, are making solid contact with the rail and do not appear to be weird in any way. Never ran across this before. I figured I’d have at least 15 mils up...
     
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    Unfortunately I’ve been in that situation And you’re not gonna like the answe. My Ruger had the barrel machined out at a very bad downward angle. There was no way to get enough angle even with the 20 Moa base to overcome the badly machined receiver. Ruger wouldn’t fix it and to this day I won’t own another one.
     
    This isn’t a Ruger and the previous scope had the expected up travel.

    Edited to add, I’m referring to zeroing the Kidd and made the OP a little more clear.

    The American has 20 Mils up left with the PA scope. It’s a great shooter too.
     
    I'm not familiar with the PA and Argos scopes. Are these the ones you're talking about?

    https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-4-14x44mm-riflescope-mil-dot-pa4-14xffp
    https://athlonoptics.com/product/rifle-scope-argos-6-24x50/

    Because if so, the specs on those pages don't match yours -- they say that each scope has 18 mils total elevation, not 24 or 30.
    The specs for the PA are different than what my experience and many others have, I don’t know why it says that in the specs, but I assure you that the PA has over 30 Mils of total adjustment and the Argos has just over 24.

    Maybe since PA relaunched the lines of their scopes a spec changed. My scope is several years old.

    It isn’t wise to crank them to the end of the range in that it can affect windage slightly. When I shot out to 400 with the 22, the scope had several 1/10ths left but I stopped at 19 Mils and held on the reticle.

    This guy had the same experience as me.

     
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    The specs for the PA are different than what my experience and many others have, I don’t know why it says that in the specs, but I assure you that the PA has over 30 Mils of total adjustment and the Argos has just over 24.
    Oh, interesting. Is it possible that the "extra" elevation adjustment (12 mils for the PA and 6 for the Athlon) isn't evenly distributed above and below optical center? Maybe you got lucky with the distribution on the PA and/or unlucky with the Athlon?

    Since your rifle is already zeroed, you can find the optical center pretty easly, by first calculating how much elevation travel you lost by zeroing the rifle, than subtracting that amount from the 5.9 mils that you gained from the 20MOA rail. Dial up that much and you'll be at the optical center of the scope. From there, you can dial up and down to see how much range the scope actually gives you in each direction.

    The ballistics calculator at https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj_simp-5.1.cgi will tell you how much elevation travel you lose by zeroing your rifle if you give it this info:
    • ballistic specs (or name of the bullet or factory cartridge)
    • muzzle velocity (there's a chart at http://ruger1022.com/docs/22lrballistics.htm if you don't have a chrono)
    • scope height (distance from bore center to scope-tube center)
    • zeroing distance
    I just tried it out. For a rifle shooting factory CCI .22LR Standard Velocity cartridges at 1070 fps MV, with a scope height of 3 inches and a 50-yard zero, the calculator says I'll lose 13.568 MOA, which is 4.0 mils, of upward travel by zeroing the rifle.

    If I subtract that from the 5.9 mils that I gain from a 20MOA rail, I get 5.9 - 4.0 = 1.9 mils.

    You say your zeroed PA has 19 mils of up travel, and the zeroed Athlon has 9 mils. So if you zeroed your scopes under the same conditions as in my example, the PA would have 19 - 1.9 = 17.1 mils of elevation above optical center (meaning that if there were equal travel available up and down from optical center, that scope would be providing 34.2 mils of total elevation), and the Athlon would have 9 - 1.9 = 7.1 mils of elevation above optical center (only 14.2 mils total elevation if the up/down travel was symmetric).

    Those are both odd results; they don't match up with your 30 mil / 24 mil numbers or with the published 18 mil numbers. They could be correct if both scopes have asymmetric up/down travel, but I'm no scope expert, so I have no idea how likely that is. The only other explanations I can think of are:

    PA:​
    What if PA's published spec for "total elevation" -- 60MOA / 17.8 mil -- is actually the scope's available UP elevation? If that were true, the total elevation would really be around 35.6 mils.​
    (35.6 / 2) + (5.9 - 4.0) = 17.8 + 1.9 = 19.9 mils available elevation, which is around what you reported.​
    Athlon:​
    Let's say the Athlon really does have "over 24 mils" (maybe 24.5 mils) of total elevation as you claim, despite their published 18-mil spec. What if your "20MOA" rail is actually a 0MOA rail?
    In that case, available elevation using my ballistic specs would be (24.5 / 2) + (0 - 4.0) = 12.25 - 4.0 = 8.25 mils available elevation. Which isn't the 9 mils that you reported, but it's close. And if your scope height's a little lower or your muzzle velocity's a little higher than my example, you might be using only 3.25 mils rather than 4.0 to zero the rifle, in which case the 0MOA rail calculation would exactly match what you've reported.​

    Hmm, this post was a lot longer than I thought it would be.
     
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    I ran into the same thing with the athon Argos it didn’t have enough up travel to even get one of my AR’s zeroed. I don’t think there centered I quess the only way to tell would we to run on a 0 moa rail and center and see how close it is but I don’t think I own a rifle with a zero Moa rail.
     
    Well I know the rail is 20MOA, it’s Kidd and marked, plus you can visually see the cant.

    The PA scope gave me approximately 19+ mils, which if we just assume the scope is 30 mils total, on the 20 moa rail, shows it to be fairly centered optically.

    This scope I have to assume, just isn’t centered, not even close.

    I ran it all the way down, then all the way up and it is just over 4 revolutions total with 6 mils per revolution.

    One would hope it had at least more than half of the total for dialing up. If it were anywhere near centered optically it should have between 15-17 mils of up.

    I will switch the rings and see what I end up with. I could pop it onto an AR long enough to see where it lands on a zero rail but with how it is on the 20moa it would not even have a full revolution left.

    I may contact Athlon.
     
    Kinda what you get with low-end chinese scopes I think. No offense of course, but it seems that's about the only possible explanation unless the rings are creating unexpected issues.
     
    Kinda what you get with low-end chinese scopes I think. No offense of course, but it seems that's about the only possible explanation unless the rings are creating unexpected issues.
    No offense taken. My even lower cost Chinese PA has been 100% though and tracks perfectly. May order another Ares BTR while the 549 sale is still on.

    I could buy Burris Zee Tactical rings and get up to 40 additional MOA but that’s only maybe 10 mils more elevation.
     
    No offense taken. My even lower cost Chinese PA has been 100% though and tracks perfectly. May order another Ares BTR while the 549 sale is still on.

    I could buy Burris Zee Tactical rings and get up to 40 additional MOA but that’s only maybe 10 mils more elevation.
    Sure. I think that was my point. Some of the Chinese scopes come out fine. But the odds are certainly less than other higher-end options. I was unaware the PA was Chinese though.
     
    Sure. I think that was my point. Some of the Chinese scopes come out fine. But the odds are certainly less than other higher-end options. I was unaware the PA was Chinese though.
    Their higher end scopes are Japanese but the lower priced stuff is Chinese. The 4-14 is built on same body as the old Falcon scopes but PA specs their own internals.
     
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