Sidearms & Scatterguns Double Stack 1911

Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
if someone pulls out a gun and starts gunning down people in the mall, i'm taking cover and engaging.

but if it were to happen, it wouldn't be a long, drawn out hollywood gunfight. it'll probably be a controlled pair from a relatively short distance that stops any attack on a mall/church/school/etc.

95% of gunfights take place < 21 ft and 3-4 shots are usually fired.

my points are:
1) 6.5 oz is not some negligible amount of weight
2) there is no freaking way that a double stack gun has the same footprint as a single stack gun
3) violence is the last resort </div></div>

Tell yourself whatever you need to justify your decisions.

However all of the above statements are indicative of how little you "know".

Quote all the stats you like and make all the predictions of how the fight will PROBABLY be ended by your magical controlled pair, but at the end of the day nobody knows how an armed encounter will transpire.

Of all the possible concerns over what, how, when, why........to carry, you're superior intellect has boiled the decision down to 1/3 the weight of a bottle of water.....BRAVO!
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

I've also heard bad stuff and read bad reviews on the para ordinance 1911s and double stacked 1911s in general. Don't understand why people want them. I'd go single stack. Less shit to go wrong in a situation. Also people will argue this, but even though I'm a 1911 fan and only carry 1911s, they do tend to malfunction more than other semi autos.

I've been carrying my usp compact in 45 lately since my kimber pro carry 2 has had a few FTF. My kimber has 1500 rounds through it and apparently still isn't broken in enough :p

Check out the usp though. You can have a double stacked 45 mag with the same single action you use on a 1911
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

Smok-
I'm not so sure who is showing how little they know. Professionals study the situations and then determine a best course of action for them. No cookie cutter response.

YOUR thinking on the subject is to say there is no way to know anything about how a situation will go down. I liken that to cavemen cowering in a cave holding their spears infront of them as the 'GODS' thunder in the dark.

Or decide URBAN LE snipers should be armed with 338 Lapuas because you never know when terrorists will use a hijacked Brinks armored car to kill us all.

Some can carry a double stack and not print, some cant. Some carry bunker gear everyday and dont consider a double stack rig bulky and heavy. MOST CCWs dont and do appreciate a lighter rig.

You train to fight fires knowing there can/will always be something different with each fire, BUT do you carry 3 days worth of air on your back? You dont because oneway or another you wont need more than what you carry even if a fire turns on you.

Dont sneer at a guy for anal-izing the problem, sneer at the pocket protector!
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

Since you can't tell which guy doesn't know shit from apple butter, I will let you in on a clue.....

IT"S THE GUY QUOTING DISTANCES AND ROUNDS FIRED IN X % OF GUNFIGHTS......


Thinking that you can predict the gunfight you're gonna be in is the height of self delusion.

Train, for violent encounters in as many scenarios as you can imagine, including violence first. But it is incredibly foolish to think what you practiced will be what your faced with.....just too many variables.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

i don't know shit, and the retired FBI agent who gave me those stats doesn't know shit.

sorozatlovo.jpg

i'm buying one of these. it ONLY weighs 1.5 lbs more than a standard 8 rd magazine.

lms.jpg

or i'll just carry two 1911's

i'm sorry, but i live in the real world. i don't wear a plate carrier and i don't have an LBH under my suitcoat to support the weight of of 5 lbs of pistol and ammo.

1 pistol with an extra magazine coupled with car keys, a cell phone, and a wallet is cumbersome enough.

FWIW- the HK USP's and the FNP-45 are fantastic high capacity 45 caliber pistols.

i was fortunate to spend some time with an FNP-45 and it's controls are very intuitive for a 1911 user. my only gripe is that the thumb safety is a bit small and the built up area in front of the safety can make it tricky to operate.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In regards to the questions concerning reliability.

When these pistols were developed like many other firearm improvements, much of the focus and use was in a competition setting. The technology was new and the evolution of improvements and techniques for building them was rapidly advancing. Couple this with the crucible of competition where many of the setups were tuned to the ragged edge (think top fuel dragster not toyota camry). There was ample opportunity for less than anvil like reliability.
</div></div>

It's obvious you haven't shot too many matches lately, because an unreliable gun has no place in this game and will cost you a match every time. A competitor who is fighting with his gun is not shooting.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how can a pistol that holds twice as many rounds have the same footprint as a single stack pistol? i've shot ParaOrd and Caspian-based double stack pistols and they are definitely thicker; maybe not by much but it is noticably thicker.</div></div>

All you've just explained is why the 2011 was not "prior art" when it was produced. The creators got three patents for it for a reason. The Para already existed when the 2011 was invented. The innovation of the 2011 wasn't just that it held more rounds. The innovation was that the weight and grip made it feel almost exactly like a 1911, while the use of a hybrid polymer/steel frame allowed them to increase the capacity of the magazine. How can it have the same footprint? That's the whole point. Make the grip out of plastic and install a bigger magazine. Obviously not an easy task, but that's why the 2011 is such an amazing piece of hardware when compared to the other attempts at the same thing (Para, Caspian), etc., which are all heavier and thicker than the 2011.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
a single stack 1911 lies beautifully flat against one's side. the magazine, just like the pistol, lies flat and doesn't print.</div></div>

While subjective, I generally agree with that. I also think that the 1911 is too heavy for practical every day carry. It's annoyingly heavy.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
you say 6.5 oz like it's nothing. that's like carrying another blackberry or a roll of quarters. where do you put it all? at what point does being prepared become a burden?
</div></div>

I think what we've been trying to point out is that the weight is not a reason to avoid the 2011 in favor of the 1911, because the 2011 actually weighs less.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...

95% of gunfights take place < 21 ft and 3-4 shots are usually fired.

my points are:
1) 6.5 oz is not some negligible amount of weight
2) there is no freaking way that a double stack gun has the same footprint as a single stack gun
3) violence is the last resort </div></div>

1. 6.5 ounces is not a lot of weight when you're already married to a 43 ounce gun as your daily sidearm. I do think that the 1911 is too heavy for practical every day carry, but if I was willing to carry a full size 1911, I wouldn't give a rat's ass if it was 6.5 ounces heavier, I would welcome the additional capacity, and the last thing I'd remove from a gun to make it lighter for carry would be additional ammunition. I'd rather have a shorter barrel or change some steel parts for aluminum or something before I'd ever consider removing ammunition from the equation, however unlikely it might be that I'd need it.

2. The 2011 has a substantially similar footprint to the 1911. I'd trade my Springfield EMP for an STI of similar barrel length with a double column magazine any day. Plenty of people carry Glock 19/23s. They're just as wide as any 2011 and plenty concealable. In fact, I absolutely hate Glocks but the Glock 19 is an excellent carry gun.

3. It might be your preference that one use violence as a last resort, but fortunately the law doesn't impose a duty based on your preferences. States are passing broader and broader self defense statutes which allow people to stand their ground and fight if they so choose. If someone pointed their gun at me and wanted my wallet, I think it'd be more likely than not that they'd get shot and not get my wallet than the other way around. Of course, any actual scenario would have to be evaluated based on its individual facts, but given the choice between submit and fight, my default is fight, and I don't think I'm in the minority around here. Most states do not expect someone to retreat from a fight in the street, although you should check your laws in your state to be sure, because it was once the rule in every state that a citizen had to retreat before using violence.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

"It's obvious you haven't shot too many matches lately, because an unreliable gun has no place in this game and will cost you a match every time. A competitor who is fighting with his gun is not shooting."

Wow, can't wait to read smokshwn's response to that!! Go get 'em Craig!

Rich
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

Smok-
You be suprized the number of professionals who USE stats and as many AARs on shoots they can gather to form their opinions.

Zero-
I dont really care about the what pistol squabble but do wonder just how many times you have stared down some bad guy's bore and decided the few bucks in your wallet was worth trying to draw your concealed pistol over.

I'm thinking you wont more than once.

I almost have to agree with Smok in your case, you dont know how the fight will start. Unless you are a fat roll of slob waddling to your car outside the all you can eat buffet, or a 98 pound Skeech the badguy wont give you much of a chance to decide a course of action.

Your first clue might very well be a 40 oz upside your head.

I do wish you luck on your next encounter with an armed and ready to shoot bad guy.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I do wish you luck on your next encounter with an armed and ready to shoot bad guy.
</div></div>

I don't know about you, but I left the military years ago. The probability of me facing an "armed and ready to shoot" bad guy is slim to none. It's far more likely that a foolish, young new gang member would be in my sights. And so long as I'm aware of my surroundings and sober, I don't think he'd stand much of a chance.

If I were a cop or something, the calculations would probably be different.

Back in my world, not too many people who are "ready to shoot" are going to point a gun for long without pulling the trigger. When it's time to shoot, I'll be shooting, not talking.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

Down-
underestimationg your enemy might just make you the foolish one. Young gangbangers would be the one quite happy to cap your ass if you decide to try for your concealed weapon infront of him with his weapon pointed at you.

They are the ones out to make a name and will take no disrespect- you sound like you are counting on him not willing to pull the trigger because the distance involved makes missing rather difficult.

Didnt some other guy post how bangers are enlisting to get those combat skills you like to think you have? Some may scorn intel but thats a right handy fact to know.

I do agree with you on one thing- the odds are slim to none you will ever test your theory. I just hope if you ever are confronted it makes the news so we can see just how it turned out.

Good luck
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

One thing I haven't seen discussed is the fact that all autoloaders regardless of who built them or how new or old they are will require a serious function test before deploying in the field. Being autoloaders they are subject to all sorts of problems that crop up seemingly out of nowhere. Anyone that shoots matches with any regularity knows that eventually you have to be your own warranty station. As a shooter of autoloaders it is in your best interest to know more than just the basics of maintenance and function. Having an intimate knowledge of the mechanics of the firearm will allow you to diagnose and repair malfunctions and tweak your weapon for max reliability. Having shot over 400 IPSC and other matches, I have seen EVERY pistol and revolver malfunction no matter who built it. It is the ultimate stupidity to believe that a name buys reliability. Only extensive function testing and intimate knowledge of your personal weapon can come close. After firing hundreds of thousands of rounds in competition I cannot trust my life to an autoloader so I carry a revolver.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

work2shoot,
For the high end of your price range, I would no doubt go with an STI factory gun. Shoot the hell out of it and have fun.
As for a Para, I wouldnt give you a boot full of cold piss for one. From my own personal experience, their quality and customer service just plain suck.
I had an SV custom built by Don Williams at the "Action Works" in .40 S&W that I used in IPSC/USPSA and it never failed me. Don is currently building me an STI Tactical in 10mm. If you decide to go Custom I would highly recommend Don.
The reliability issues that I have seen on the Range in years of IPSC/USPSA competition had a lot to do with the "Gunsmith" that did the work and quality of the reloaded ammo.
The STI/SV are not what I would consider great for concealed carry but I will carry my 10mm in the field after extensive testing.
Hope this helps.
Take care, Mike.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

vinconco obivously has an intimate knowledge of mechanical firearms. I thought function testing your gun would be must do and, looking to see if all parts are still in tolerance would be common sense for any gun owner. Guess not but then again I learned that from a Shop Manual. Glad you caught that.
Its a machine and needs to be maintained as time goes on and it gets used. Parts will be tuned out of spec and need repairs or replacing. Just like changing the oil on your car, or replacing the air filter.

Can we keep this thread from becoming what gun is better than what? Some things work for others while those same things may fail for the other half. I personally just love learning about guns, but wouldn't depend my live on one. Thats my opinion and wouldn't try to force it on anybody. Well...not often anyways I'm only human.

Woodwalker how is that 10mm? Any pros and cons you can list up for it? I've been interested in that round for awhile now and would like to know more about it.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

Woodwalker how is that 10mm? Any pros and cons you can list up for it? I've been interested in that round for awhile now and would like to know more about it.

I'll let you know as soon as its finished. It will be my first 10mm.
Mike
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In regards to the questions concerning reliability.

When these pistols were developed like many other firearm improvements, much of the focus and use was in a competition setting. The technology was new and the evolution of improvements and techniques for building them was rapidly advancing. Couple this with the crucible of competition where many of the setups were tuned to the ragged edge (think top fuel dragster not toyota camry). There was ample opportunity for less than anvil like reliability.
</div></div>

It's obvious you haven't shot too many matches lately, because an unreliable gun has no place in this game and will cost you a match every time. A competitor who is fighting with his gun is not shooting.

</div></div>

Just when I think your IQ can't get any lower you prove me wrong yet again.

Read what you quoted from me again.....the first sentence starts with WHEN as in 20 years ago....1991. Much has been done with respect to improving not only the build quality and reliability of these pistols but also establishing a knowledge base of different setups for various calibers, gun configurations etc. I haven't been shooting long enough to have first hand knowledge of this history but much of what I have learned has come from those who were there....one of them being a certain Voigt whose surname represents the V in SVI. If you would like to call into question any of the veracity of my comments please feel free to question the source, as I am sure he would be easily entertained by your stupidity.

As to the question of how many matches I have attended or not attended lately, again your lack of knowledge is astounding.

Here is a of just the national level matches for 2010 and my planned 2011 schedule:
2010
Superstition Mountain Mystery 3 Gun
MGM Ironman 3 Gun
USPSA Area 1 Pistol Championships
R&R Racing Multigun Championship
Rocky Mountain 3 Gun
USPSA Limited Nationals
USPSA Multigun Nationals
USPSA Area 2 Pistol Rio Solado Desert Classic

2011
Superstion Mountain Mystery 3 Gun
Blue Ridge Mountain 3 Gun
MGM Ironman (start shooting at 0700 tomorrow morning)
Northwest Multigun Challenge
Rocky Mountain 3 Gun
Rockcastle Pro Am ( pending )
Lake of the Ozarks 3 Gun
USPSA Area 1 Multigun Championship
USPSA Multigun Nationals
and either
FNH USA 3 Gun Championship or Rio Solado Desert classic again.

This doesn't even touch the local or regional matches.

So to counter your infantile assertion, yes I have an intimate knowledge of the value of reliability of equipment.

Now let's see your match schedule or did you once again prove you are built of nothing more than an alligator mouth attached to a hummingbirds ass?

BTW I am shooting with Mike in the morning, this should start a great "conversation of the day" concerning internet idiots and their empty headed assertions.

 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Smok-
You be suprized the number of professionals who USE stats and as many AARs on shoots they can gather to form their opinions.

</div></div>

Actually I would not be surprised in the least as much of professional career and operating ability stem from exactly that type of education/training/information. I am not arguing that intimate knowledge of case studies and the lessons they teach are not an immensely valuable and a worthwhile training endeavor. But I would assert that a true professional would also admit that even after extensive study and training that they would be ill equipped to predict the specifics (# of shots fired, distances, # of assailants, time of day etc.) of their next encounter.

In this light the information is valuable but to think that you "have it covered" based on the number of rounds you do/don't carry is ludicrous.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
BTW I am shooting with Mike in the morning, this should start a great "conversation of the day" concerning internet idiots and their empty headed assertions.
</div></div>

I am headed to a match tomorrow morning as well. Perhaps I'll introduce the topic at the match of fellow idiotic internet commandos and see what they think about the assertion that match guns are not reliable.

Or I could just pull out my cell phone and get some video of race guns running all day long.

But in case you're wondering, I shot several majors and staffed a couple last year as well. I'm not shooting any majors this year because I'm broke. I did have a slot to the limited nats, and had every intention of going this year, but the $$$ just isn't there and I'm lucky to have ammo.

If you really think I'm intimidated that you're shooting with the USPSA president, so be it. Furthermore, I'm actually the person who created his Wikipedia entry, so in case you're wondering, I'm well aware of who he is, and not because his initial exists in the acronym "SV" either.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

It still amusing to hear about how "reliable" these race guns are and how they can make it through a whole day of shooting without a malf. I'm sure they can when shooting a load specifically tailored to that particular gun. When travelling and training you often don't get a choice of what ammo your shooting. If I took a bucket of mixed headstamp ammo, put some dirt/dust into the equation, and a little time, I wonder how reliable these guns would be.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

So...
I'm truly curious: Are there any viable double-stack 1911ish pistols within the OP's $1500 budget? How much do good magazines cost? Is this a pistol you would recommend as a first auto pistol? Is this a pistol that you would recommend for concealed carry?

Personally I feel more comfortable recommending a 3rd-Generation Glock 17/19 for folks who live in states that allow full-capacity magazines or a M&P45 for those in limited-capacity states or for those who want/need a thumb safety. Buy a half dozen mags, a quality belt, holster, and magazine pouch, a case of ammo, and take a good training class. Buy a second pistol, a clone to the first that shares mags, holsters, and manual of arms. Practice. Seek more training. Cultivate a warrior mindset.

1911s of any flavor can be an expensive proposition. I've been down that path. I don't advocate others follow unless they just cannot help themselves.
wink.gif
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how can a pistol that holds twice as many rounds have the same footprint as a single stack pistol? i've shot ParaOrd and Caspian-based double stack pistols and they are definitely thicker; maybe not by much but it is noticably thicker.

a single stack 1911 lies beautifully flat against one's side. the magazine, just like the pistol, lies flat and doesn't print.

my points are:
1) 6.5 oz is not some negligible amount of weight
2) there is no freaking way that a double stack gun has the same footprint as a single stack gun
3) violence is the last resort</div></div>

these are interesting statements,

single stack RIA
singlestack.jpg


double stack caspian recon
doublestack.jpg



in my opinion 2 thousands is not "noticably thicker"
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: secondstoryguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It still amusing to hear about how "reliable" these race guns are and how they can make it through a whole day of shooting without a malf. I'm sure they can when shooting a load specifically tailored to that particular gun. When travelling and training you often don't get a choice of what ammo your shooting. If I took a bucket of mixed headstamp ammo, put some dirt/dust into the equation, and a little time, I wonder how reliable these guns would be. </div></div>

Mine will shoot factory ammo all day. In fact, it's more likely to run well with factory ammo because the brass is new and less likely to have the common .40 bulge.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Aubrey</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So...
I'm truly curious: Are there any viable double-stack 1911ish pistols within the OP's $1500 budget? How much do good magazines cost? Is this a pistol you would recommend as a first auto pistol? Is this a pistol that you would recommend for concealed carry?

Personally I feel more comfortable recommending a 3rd-Generation Glock 17/19 for folks who live in states that allow full-capacity magazines or a M&P45 for those in limited-capacity states or for those who want/need a thumb safety. Buy a half dozen mags, a quality belt, holster, and magazine pouch, a case of ammo, and take a good training class. Buy a second pistol, a clone to the first that shares mags, holsters, and manual of arms. Practice. Seek more training. Cultivate a warrior mindset.

1911s of any flavor can be an expensive proposition. I've been down that path. I don't advocate others follow unless they just cannot help themselves.
wink.gif
</div></div>

Brand new 2011 like mine is $1850 from STI.

Yes I would recommend it as a first pistol so long as the user understands how to run a single action gun out of the holster.

Probably not for concealed carry unless it was a compact model; a 5" gun is just too big for every day concealed carry.

I think that the pistols you mentioned are fine choices, as are others. I also think that the trigger is the hardest thing to learn for new shooters, and a single action gun is easier for anyone, but especially new shooters, to place rounds accurately.

Dealing with a gun with a shitty trigger is not really a solution. A firearm, whether it's a rifle, shotgun, or pistol, is much easier to shoot accurately when it is ergonomic. For pistols, that means a light, smooth trigger pull, because a trigger pull weight that exceeds the loaded weight of the gun by 2-3x makes it very difficult to shoot.

Once you build your skills, you can pretty much shoot anything, but most people will be faster and more accurate with a single action.

That is the reason why most competitive organizations don't expect people to shoot Glocks against single actions. That's not to say that it can't be done, either, because Dave Sevigny or Bob Vogel could kick all of our asses using stock Glocks. It doesn't follow, however, that single action isn't easier to shoot.

Single action is MY preference and I try not to impose it on new shooters when I teach them. I've found that I seldom have to say anything though.....the evidence of the ergonomic slim grip and light, smooth trigger is right on the target every time.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you really think I'm intimidated that you're shooting with the USPSA president, so be it. Furthermore, I'm actually the person who created his Wikipedia entry, so in case you're wondering, I'm well aware of who he is, and not because his initial exists in the acronym "SV" either. </div></div>

It had nothing to do with intimidation....but everything to do with giving validity to my statement. As the information I was relaying was not my opinion but rather the story as told by one of the originators of the platform....once again comprehension escapes you.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how can a pistol that holds twice as many rounds have the same footprint as a single stack pistol? i've shot ParaOrd and Caspian-based double stack pistols and they are definitely thicker; maybe not by much but it is noticably thicker.

a single stack 1911 lies beautifully flat against one's side. the magazine, just like the pistol, lies flat and doesn't print.

my points are:
1) 6.5 oz is not some negligible amount of weight
2) there is no freaking way that a double stack gun has the same footprint as a single stack gun
3) violence is the last resort</div></div>

these are interesting statements,

single stack RIA
singlestack.jpg


double stack caspian recon
doublestack.jpg



in my opinion 2 thousands is not "noticably thicker" </div></div>


wait...think ive seeen that ri before?
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VAJayJayPunisher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: slothlacrosse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how can a pistol that holds twice as many rounds have the same footprint as a single stack pistol? i've shot ParaOrd and Caspian-based double stack pistols and they are definitely thicker; maybe not by much but it is noticably thicker.

a single stack 1911 lies beautifully flat against one's side. the magazine, just like the pistol, lies flat and doesn't print.

my points are:
1) 6.5 oz is not some negligible amount of weight
2) there is no freaking way that a double stack gun has the same footprint as a single stack gun
3) violence is the last resort</div></div>

these are interesting statements,

single stack RIA
singlestack.jpg


double stack caspian recon
doublestack.jpg



in my opinion 2 thousands is not "noticably thicker" </div></div>

Win.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you really think I'm intimidated that you're shooting with the USPSA president, so be it. Furthermore, I'm actually the person who created his Wikipedia entry, so in case you're wondering, I'm well aware of who he is, and not because his initial exists in the acronym "SV" either. </div></div>

It had nothing to do with intimidation....but everything to do with giving validity to my statement. As the information I was relaying was not my opinion but rather the story as told by one of the originators of the platform....once again comprehension escapes you. </div></div>

MV is not one of the "originators" of the platform. There are two names on the patent and his is not one of them.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you really think I'm intimidated that you're shooting with the USPSA president, so be it. Furthermore, I'm actually the person who created his Wikipedia entry, so in case you're wondering, I'm well aware of who he is, and not because his initial exists in the acronym "SV" either. </div></div>

It had nothing to do with intimidation....but everything to do with giving validity to my statement. As the information I was relaying was not my opinion but rather the story as told by one of the originators of the platform....once again comprehension escapes you. </div></div>

MV is not one of the "originators" of the platform. There are two names on the patent and his is not one of them. </div></div>

Nice try but once again your 3rd grade level of reading comprehension fails you.

I never stated that Mike Voigt was a patent holder. I stated he was an originator. Meaning as one of only a handful of gunsmiths who has been actively building double stacks from day one until the present.

If that doesn't make him an OG in your book fine, but I am pretty sure most would disagree with you.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

how much time do you spend thinking about how to sound like a douche bag before you post?

everyone else who has picked apart my arguement has atleast done so in a tasteful and/or constructive manner (even VAJayJayPunisher).

you could very well be the bill maher of firearms.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

If you really think I'm intimidated that you're shooting with the USPSA president, so be it. Furthermore, I'm actually the person who created his Wikipedia entry, so in case you're wondering, I'm well aware of who he is, and not because his initial exists in the acronym "SV" either. </div></div>

It had nothing to do with intimidation....but everything to do with giving validity to my statement. As the information I was relaying was not my opinion but rather the story as told by one of the originators of the platform....once again comprehension escapes you. </div></div>

MV is not one of the "originators" of the platform. There are two names on the patent and his is not one of them. </div></div>

Nice try but once again your 3rd grade level of reading comprehension fails you.

I never stated that Mike Voigt was a patent holder. I stated he was an originator. Meaning as one of only a handful of gunsmiths who has been actively building double stacks from day one until the present.

If that doesn't make him an OG in your book fine, but I am pretty sure most would disagree with you.

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I'm pretty sure most people would find "originator" and "inventor" to have the same meaning in this context.

But you can keep backpedaling if you want.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: smokshwn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Nice try but once again your 3rd grade level of reading comprehension fails you.

I never stated that Mike Voigt was a patent holder. I stated he was an originator. Meaning as one of only a handful of gunsmiths who has been actively building double stacks from day one until the present.

If that doesn't make him an OG in your book fine, but I am pretty sure most would disagree with you.

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I'm pretty sure most people would find "originator" and "inventor" to have the same meaning in this context.

But you can keep backpedaling if you want. </div></div>

No backpedaling at all. I will stand fully behind my original statement to the effect that MV has had a very strong hand at being an originator in the sport, the platform, and the knowledge base of anything surrounding the evolution of the doublestack 2011 platform.

Now would you care to defend your statements concerning my inexperience as a shooter and competitor or my familiarization with the platform?

I'd love to be entertained by your boundless ability to teach all the things you don't know.
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

so i had a buddy of mine ask me about buying a handgun so i took him out shooting. he is a very big guy so he said he felt most comfortable shooting my para p14 which is a double stack 1911. i told him i didnt really recommend the para but would look for other doublestack 1911's for him. other than para and STI does anyone else make one worth looking at?
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

I'm gunna give another plug for IPSC guns being reliable. No other gun of mine has as many rounds through it as my 1911 that I used to shoot IPSC with. No other gun of mine has run well with so much sand and shmoo in it, either. Mine didn't go from the case to the line in pristine condition. If I have abused a gun it's that 1911, and I would trust it in any crap situation any day. I, however, wouldn't carry the heavy pig and I sure as heck wouldn't pack it cocked and locked like my bone stock P-12 Para. The Para was made in the mid 80's, it's a good one.

I really think the reliability issue is over-played. I think any (well any that I've seen) modern and well-made pistol has the ability to be extremely reliable.

I think you should buy what you think fits your need, shoot the crap out of it and if it is unreliable you need to fix it or sell it.

I would look for an older Para that doesn't have the "power extractor."
 
Re: Double Stack 1911

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Miles2go</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm gunna give another plug for IPSC guns being reliable. No other gun of mine has as many rounds through it as my 1911 that I used to shoot IPSC with. No other gun of mine has run well with so much sand and shmoo in it, either. Mine didn't go from the case to the line in pristine condition. If I have abused a gun it's that 1911, and I would trust it in any crap situation any day. I, however, wouldn't carry the heavy pig and I sure as heck wouldn't pack it cocked and locked like my bone stock P-12 Para. The Para was made in the mid 80's, it's a good one.

I really think the reliability issue is over-played. I think any (well any that I've seen) modern and well-made pistol has the ability to be extremely reliable.

I think you should buy what you think fits your need, shoot the crap out of it and if it is unreliable you need to fix it or sell it.

I would look for an older Para that doesn't have the "power extractor." </div></div>

I've had the same experience with the same gun. However, mine would gag occasionally if I ran the recoil spring too long. Keep a spare and change it every couple thousand rounds on general principals.
 
The only problem I've ever had with my para p14.45 was a chambering issue that was my fault. When I started reloading,I didn't put enough crimp on them. Once I corrected my mistake, it has run flawlessly! It's my every day carry and I trust my life with it.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk
 
I have been shooting a Para P-14 in pistol, and 3 gun matches for nearly 20 years. I also carried a Para P-13 alloy frame as a duty gun for many years. Anyone who buys a pistol and thinks that the brand or type is going to be fool proof for those reasons is off base. Brand, or type can reduce the probability of a malfunction, but not eliminate them.

I always thought that a wise course of action is to find a pistol with a good reputation that fits your hand and style of shooting, then work with that pistol until it IS reliable.

My para pistols are all prior to Para USA, so maybe I got lucky, but all my para's have been as reliable as any other pistol I have owned (HK, FN, Browning, Colt, Smith and Wesson included). Over time, you figure out what loads, or other factors keep your pistols working properly. With my paras, frequent replacement of the recoil springs was the single most important factor in reliability. I like to run my auto pistols fairly wet, and I realize that over time oil either evaporates, or drains out of a pistol. Regular maintenance keeps the pistols from running dry. If I run my para bone dry and with a worn out recoil spring, the probability of a malfunction increases.

They work for me, and I know what keeps them running properly. That is all I need for now.