DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

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Pete2s

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Minuteman
Apr 20, 2010
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0
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#1
UPDATE:

GA Precision is no longer making custom DPMS rifles due to the change in rail height. They will, however, work on your DPMS rifle if send it in.

SWS railed hand guards no longer work with DPMS. A disclaimer on the site states "Notice to owners of DPMS 308 guns: The new uppers on your guns is about .060” lower from centerline of barrel than earlier models. The E1 or earlier rail systems will not mate up or align to the top of your upper receiver. Please be aware of this before ordering a rail system. Also note that no other rail system will work with your upper."

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I was about to purchase a DPMS .308 when I found out that DPMS changed their A3 upper rail height by a fraction of an inch--from 2.064" to 2.003". New owners of DPMS rifles quickly found that their aftermarket hand guards no longer lined up correctly with the receiver rails.

There has no been no explanation from DPMS other than "it can go easily un-noticed" and "to better accommodate our other 308 components." The change makes all the great aftermarket hand rails incompatible with DPMS. This frustrates me; the biggest advantage of DPMS is aftermarket parts. Will DPMS now require proprietary BUIS like Armalite to account for the change in rail height?

DPMS stated "that other manufacturers (DPMS already has) that make rail systems specifically for the LR308 line are in the process of updating their products to match." I was doubtful of the statement because that would mean the manufacturers would only be compatible with DPMS or have to create a new product line just for DPMS. I called Daniel Defense and they specifically told me they will not be updating their rails to DPMS's new height. Fulton Armory said their custom specifications for upper receiver rails will not be changing. I expect similar comments from other manufacturers.

With KAC's and now LMT's military contracts, the SR-25 design looks like the way to go. But with DPMS changing its standards, I don't believe DPMS is a safe bet for an entry level SR-25 design that a user can eventually build into an ideal rifle. What would you recommend now?

 
#3
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

Check with Iron Ridge Arms...they manufacture excellent receivers (upper and lower) based on the KAC/DPMS pattern. The fit and finish are truly excellent (they are doing AR-10 pattern receivers as well). The rifles I have seen built with their receivers have been excellent! Their uppers should match up perfectly with the DPMS/KAC patterned railed handguards/etc. currently available on the market.

If you don't want to stick with the KAC/DPMS pattern, there is always the Armalite AR-10 setup which is a proven design that has been the basis for decades of successful custom builds.
 
#4
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

If I was going to build a KAC pattern rifle, DPMS would NOT be my choice of platform.

There are too many other options available in custom uppers and lowers.

Now to comment on the OP's original post. AR10's do not need a proprietary height front sight unless you are mounting it to a gas block. If you are rail mounting a front BUIS like most of us do, then standard AR15 BUIS work fine.

.061" change in height will be an issue with devices that would bridge the gap like sight mounts or rings. However this shouldn't preclude BUIS use since you can adjust more than that by moving the front sight pin on most AR style sights.
 
#5
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

Thats good that fulton armory is not changing rail height. It just sucks that dpms is doing that. You might buy an aftermarket rail that changed there specs to the new dpms height and not know it.
 
#6
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Check with Iron Ridge Arms...they manufacture excellent receivers (upper and lower) based on the KAC/DPMS pattern. The fit and finish are truly excellent (they are doing AR-10 pattern receivers as well). The rifles I have seen built with their receivers have been excellent! Their uppers should match up perfectly with the DPMS/KAC patterned railed handguards/etc. currently available on the market.

If you don't want to stick with the KAC/DPMS pattern, there is always the Armalite AR-10 setup which is a proven design that has been the basis for decades of successful custom builds. </div></div>

Thanks for the suggestions. I looked at Iron Ridge Arms but for a base model that I can build on over time it's expensive. The only company that allows you to start under $1,500 is DPMS. With DPMS no longer an option, Armalite is the next price group up but requires going to the AR-10 platform. I would prefer to stay with the KAC/SR-25 design but that may not be an option.
 
#8
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

i noticed this in a sales thread. the seller mentioned that his receiver was the correct height for lining up with forearm rails, and gave a measurment. i thought it was an odd thing to mention. i guess now i need to add this little factoid to my list of notes of things to look out for.

it seems pretty silly to change that. but i thought armalite and dpms having different barrel nut specs was silly too. armalite was first and dpms was the one to deviate i guess. i get the proprietary thing, but its like a car maker having a totally new bolt pattern for his rims. sure everybody will have to buy from you, and eventually someone will make aftermarket stuff for the pattern, but they are kinda screwing every customer out of the ability to use the multitude of options that are out there

gotta wonder though as badger already makes hand guards for both armalite and dpms with the only difference being the block. now they will have to come up with a new extrusion for the new dpms standard. what a pain. makes me wonder about choosing a dpms lower for the build. time to look around i guess since i havent bought the upper as of yet.
 
#9
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

This really isnt a new concept really.

Look at Colt, they did it with the large pin AR recievers.

Ruger did it with the mini 14 and high capacity mags ..... they were only available to LEO.

It does suck but each company does things their own way.

Thats my reasoning behind not doing a piston gun .... there is so set spec like there is for a straight DI gun. There is no mil spec for a 308 gun that everyone is going to conform to.
 
#10
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

True, but if there was one standard across the .308 semi-auto platform, it was the rail height. A Daniel Defense Lite Rail would fit both Armalite and DPMS. Now it will fit every rifle but DPMS.

While some manufacturers might offer a new line of products for DPMS, I wouldn't hold your breath. DPMS changed their rail height 6 months ago; I have not heard of any manufacturers changing their specs to be compatible with DPMS and those I called said they would not be.
 
#11
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Pete2s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Thanks for the suggestions. I looked at Iron Ridge Arms but for a base model that I can build on over time it's expensive. The only company that allows you to start under $1,500 is DPMS. </div></div>

First, all you'd have to do is swap the upper. If you're swapping the handguard, you already took it apart, so no loss there.

Second, do you know whether they did the same thing for the Remington's they make? The R25 is a DPMS build, but maybe Remington doesn't like parts changing spec, so perhaps they still have the old style. They start <lK like the DPMS's do.
 
#12
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

one thing i noticed was when i looked at the parts in a catalog and parts that people posted for sale here, i just couldnt seem to make the math work out. $426 for a stripped lower, $730 for a fixed stock and $700 for a collapsable stock lower with internals. i bought a lower off here for $200, LPK for $65, pardus stock for $60... thats $325? even the uppers are the same way. add up the parts and you sure pay a ton for them to assemble it. that and the BCGs seem to be really high too. almost better to buy a built upper and swap barrels than to build an upper and buy the BCG after. im still crunching numbers


pete, you might try building one from the ground up. look at http://www.8541tactical.com/precisionar10.php
 
#13
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AXEMAN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">one thing i noticed was when i looked at the parts in a catalog and parts that people posted for sale here, i just couldnt seem to make the math work out. $426 for a stripped lower, $730 for a fixed stock and $700 for a collapsable stock lower with internals. i bought a lower off here for $200, LPK for $65, pardus stock for $60... thats $325? even the uppers are the same way. add up the parts and you sure pay a ton for them to assemble it. that and the BCGs seem to be really high too. almost better to buy a built upper and swap barrels than to build an upper and buy the BCG after. im still crunching numbers


pete, you might try building one from the ground up. look at http://www.8541tactical.com/precisionar10.php </div></div>

I might try to build from the ground up. I would like to acquire the tools as well.

The Armalite prices for their best upper assembly and lower assembly are very good. $1500 for guaranteed sub-moa barrel, match trigger, free float quad rail, threaded with flash suppressor.
 
#14
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsydlooknin75</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This really isnt a new concept really.

Look at Colt, they did it with the large pin AR recievers.

Ruger did it with the mini 14 and high capacity mags ..... they were only available to LEO.

It does suck but each company does things their own way.

Thats my reasoning behind not doing a piston gun .... there is so set spec like there is for a straight DI gun. There is no mil spec for a 308 gun that everyone is going to conform to. </div></div>

And I don't like Colt or Ruger and the above contributes to it.

Running pistons now too.
 
#16
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

the sucky part is going to be the search for the right height DPMS upper to complete my build. where are we measuring from? top of the rail to the inside top of the barrel opening? great, just what we all need... more issues from a maker. i wonder what will happen when their sales drop off? will they sit and scratch their asses and wonder why no one is buying their new idea?
 
#17
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

I just called DPMS to see what they would say about all of this.

The goofball tried to tell me that all of the old recievers were too high and this change was made to correct it. When I confronted him with what has been said from the rail manufacture's all he would say is, <span style="font-style: italic">"Well all the information I have been given is that all the rails now fit flush."</span>

He didn't give me a high degree of confidence.
 
#19
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kyshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just called DPMS to see what they would say about all of this.

The goofball tried to tell me that all of the old recievers were too high and this change was made to correct it. When I confronted him with what has been said from the rail manufacture's all he would say is, <span style="font-style: italic">"Well all the information I have been given is that all the rails now fit flush."</span>

When I had my DPMS I called 4 times about a couple difrent issues. I was given the run around 3 times. They gave me answeres a novice should know was BS. I only talkted to one person who knew what they were talkling about and that was suposedly the head gunsmith. As far as I am concerned they should stop making guns and just start making airsoft stuff.

He didn't give me a high degree of confidence. </div></div>
 
#21
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wouldn't it be George's job to make such an announcement here? His web site says nothing about this. Your profile clearly indicates you don't work for GAP. </div></div>

I called and asked because at the time I wanted a custom DPMS. They said they don't make them anymore due to the change in rail height but they'd work on one if I sent it in.
 
#22
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

So, now that I have this DPMS lower, what choices are available for uppers that are rail system compatible?


I did look at Iron Ridge Arms and CMMG but are there any other options for a standard A3 upper with forward assist?
 
#23
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

fulton maybe. i looked at them for a barrel. they carry kreiger. and there are others. lets make a list...

hey badger will only have to change the way the hole in the barrel block is drilled/milled to adjust the top rail height. but still. if others have to change the extrusion, i dont see it for just DPMS. do they make that many uppers? is there that few other choices?
 
#24
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

hey i have a badger handguard/ free float tube. it was off an armalite so i called badger (located just next door in KC) and talked with them about a mounting block for my DPMS. they dont have any plans on making any channges for the new DPMS upper. so DPMS is just blowing smoke if they say the accessory makers will adapt to their changes. not saying that they will never, but i dont think badger was interested in yet another variation to list, market and manage from a customer service "hey this rail wont line up with my upper" standpoint. nice move DPMS. so now, you are limited to what DPMS will sell you to fit their own stuff. but dont worry, they are always so fair in their pricing
 
#25
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

I ran into this problem with my DPMS carbine build. Ended up ditching the DPMS upper and ordering a stripped one from Fulton Armory, and it lined up with my DD rail perfectly.
 
#27
Re: DPMS .308 moving to proprietary standards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kyshooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info, I'll be ordering the Fulton Armory upper shortly. </div></div>

Me too. Can't decide whether to get the side cocking upper receiver or standard A4.
 
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