Has any one seen DPMS' new Panther REPR and there version of the Mark 12 but in 7.62? Any thoughts? Thanks, ADT.
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DPMS 7.62 Semi's
- Thread starter ADT
- Start date
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
I have only seen pictures of the new DPMS "REPR" and have not had the chance to shoot one or look one over in person, but...for $2,600...I think you could do a lot better. Same with the 7.62 Mk12 that DPMS offers for around $1700 or so. With the DPMS, it appears that you are paying for a lot of bells and whistles that may not enhance either the function or the accuracy of the rifle.
You owe it to yourself to check out some of the other sources making precision semi-auto 308 rifles before jumping on the DPMS, including but not limited to: APA, GA Precision, and others. Outfits like these can build you a true custom, precision semi-auto rifle for about the same as what you'll pay for a production built DPMS factory rifle and the GAP or APA will out-perform in every regard (especially the accuracy department). I have personally shot GAP AR-10 rifles (both Armalite and DPMS style) that were capable of approx. 1/2MOA accuracy. You won't likely get that from the DPMS.
I was informed the other day that GAP has quite a backlog of AR's in their pipeline, but definitely check with them anyway. APA may be able to fill your needs a little quicker.
** - To all the DPMS owners out there...I am not bashing the company or their products...they build a fine rifle and I own a few of them so I speak from experience. BUT, when you get to a $2.5k price tag or better, I think you are shooting yourself in the foot if you aren't considering custom build options.
I have only seen pictures of the new DPMS "REPR" and have not had the chance to shoot one or look one over in person, but...for $2,600...I think you could do a lot better. Same with the 7.62 Mk12 that DPMS offers for around $1700 or so. With the DPMS, it appears that you are paying for a lot of bells and whistles that may not enhance either the function or the accuracy of the rifle.
You owe it to yourself to check out some of the other sources making precision semi-auto 308 rifles before jumping on the DPMS, including but not limited to: APA, GA Precision, and others. Outfits like these can build you a true custom, precision semi-auto rifle for about the same as what you'll pay for a production built DPMS factory rifle and the GAP or APA will out-perform in every regard (especially the accuracy department). I have personally shot GAP AR-10 rifles (both Armalite and DPMS style) that were capable of approx. 1/2MOA accuracy. You won't likely get that from the DPMS.
I was informed the other day that GAP has quite a backlog of AR's in their pipeline, but definitely check with them anyway. APA may be able to fill your needs a little quicker.
** - To all the DPMS owners out there...I am not bashing the company or their products...they build a fine rifle and I own a few of them so I speak from experience. BUT, when you get to a $2.5k price tag or better, I think you are shooting yourself in the foot if you aren't considering custom build options.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
I tend to agree with above DPMs seem to be the deal in the under $1500 catagory.When you cross the $2k mark alot more options become available.In that price i would also consider waiting just a bit and looking into the new LMT.
I tend to agree with above DPMs seem to be the deal in the under $1500 catagory.When you cross the $2k mark alot more options become available.In that price i would also consider waiting just a bit and looking into the new LMT.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Agreed. I am awaiting my new to me LR-308. If I were going to spend the coin that the higher end DPMS's require, I would go with the Larue OBR.
Agreed. I am awaiting my new to me LR-308. If I were going to spend the coin that the higher end DPMS's require, I would go with the Larue OBR.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
i agree i have the lr308b it shoots good out to about 450 thats the furtherist i have shot it at 100 its acc is ok. if your going to spend coin on a top shelf auto go with a custom build that way you wont slap yourself when you go to the range and cant shoot with the bolt guns. just my 2 cent.
i agree i have the lr308b it shoots good out to about 450 thats the furtherist i have shot it at 100 its acc is ok. if your going to spend coin on a top shelf auto go with a custom build that way you wont slap yourself when you go to the range and cant shoot with the bolt guns. just my 2 cent.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
I have had problems with mine that act like a short throat. I returned it to DPMS who said they replaced a magazine..I never had any feeding problems though, nor did I report any. They said the throat was fine.
So, I'll have to find out for myself why cases stick in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rims off....and why unfired rounds come out of the chamber with the lands and grooves engraved on the bullet.
All of which were reported to DPMS.
I fired Winchester white box, and Federal red box...when DPMS heard about the white box, they acted as if I were putting ammo from some 3rd world country down the bore. I'm sure as hell not going to break it in with 300 rounds of Federal GMM though!
I have had problems with mine that act like a short throat. I returned it to DPMS who said they replaced a magazine..I never had any feeding problems though, nor did I report any. They said the throat was fine.
So, I'll have to find out for myself why cases stick in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rims off....and why unfired rounds come out of the chamber with the lands and grooves engraved on the bullet.
All of which were reported to DPMS.
I fired Winchester white box, and Federal red box...when DPMS heard about the white box, they acted as if I were putting ammo from some 3rd world country down the bore. I'm sure as hell not going to break it in with 300 rounds of Federal GMM though!
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
DPMS is STILL behaving that way?
They were the biggest bunch of incompetent assclowns when it came to sending stuff back to them.
I've yet to witness something come back, better than it was when it left.
I'm sure it has happened though.
I found that it was much easier to fix factory defects myself than to try and get them to do it.
Their return policy is to placate you until you give up, so give up early and you'll be all fixed much faster.
You could always send the barrel to a competent gunsmith and have the chamber re-reamed.
DPMS will not do this for you, even though they absolutely should.
you don't want them to anyhow, judging by the chambers I've seen, their reamers are overused and undersharpened.
Damn,
and I like DPMS.
I buy many of their parts.
DPMS is STILL behaving that way?
They were the biggest bunch of incompetent assclowns when it came to sending stuff back to them.
I've yet to witness something come back, better than it was when it left.
I'm sure it has happened though.
I found that it was much easier to fix factory defects myself than to try and get them to do it.
Their return policy is to placate you until you give up, so give up early and you'll be all fixed much faster.
You could always send the barrel to a competent gunsmith and have the chamber re-reamed.
DPMS will not do this for you, even though they absolutely should.
you don't want them to anyhow, judging by the chambers I've seen, their reamers are overused and undersharpened.
Damn,
and I like DPMS.
I buy many of their parts.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
I have both a full DPMS LR-308 and a DPMS 6.5 Creedmoor upper on a CMMG lower. The only problem I have had was with the 6.5 Creedmoor upper. It was short stroking. I spoke w/ DPMS on the phone explaining what was wrong and they instructed me to send the upper back. I sent the upper back and had it back in my hands in 2 weeks. The work order stated they had polished the gas system. I figure they had opened the gas port on the barrel, and maybe polished the bolt and where it goes in the carrier. It now works just as it should.
I have both a full DPMS LR-308 and a DPMS 6.5 Creedmoor upper on a CMMG lower. The only problem I have had was with the 6.5 Creedmoor upper. It was short stroking. I spoke w/ DPMS on the phone explaining what was wrong and they instructed me to send the upper back. I sent the upper back and had it back in my hands in 2 weeks. The work order stated they had polished the gas system. I figure they had opened the gas port on the barrel, and maybe polished the bolt and where it goes in the carrier. It now works just as it should.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Good to hear.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hilbillee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The work order stated they had polished the gas system. </div></div>
How does one go about doing that anyhow?
I've got a factory LR-260 that could use a little more cycle energy too.
It will lock the bolt back on an empty magazine about 2/3rd of the time, though it always feeds perfectly.
Not bothersome enough for me to fix.
I've been very happy with its performance considering it only cost $950.
Good to hear.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hilbillee</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The work order stated they had polished the gas system. </div></div>
How does one go about doing that anyhow?
I've got a factory LR-260 that could use a little more cycle energy too.
It will lock the bolt back on an empty magazine about 2/3rd of the time, though it always feeds perfectly.
Not bothersome enough for me to fix.
I've been very happy with its performance considering it only cost $950.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Not real sure but like I said earlier they probably opened the gas post in the barrel, and maybe polished the bolt and the inside o the carrier where is rides.
Not real sure but like I said earlier they probably opened the gas post in the barrel, and maybe polished the bolt and the inside o the carrier where is rides.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
I have a DPMS LR-308 with some minor upgrades but with the factory barrel it shoot under 1/2 MOA everytime. If I use my handloads I get around .0422 I know that GAP makes rifles that get this directly from them while DPMS you might get a good one or you might not. Might be a chance you are willing to take.
I have a DPMS LR-308 with some minor upgrades but with the factory barrel it shoot under 1/2 MOA everytime. If I use my handloads I get around .0422 I know that GAP makes rifles that get this directly from them while DPMS you might get a good one or you might not. Might be a chance you are willing to take.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Hamilton,
Interesting that you should say that they overuse the reamers. That was exactly what I suspected..If a reamer is predicted to wear out at X number of rounds, and actually was worn out at X minus 10, if my rifle was one of that 10, then my throat would be messed up. I think I will do what you suggest, and take it to a gunsmith to have him check the throat, and ream it properly.
About the only good thing I can say about that short throat, is that it will be easier for me to fix a short throat by having a proper reamer used on it, than it would be to try and fix one that had too long of a throat. You can take material off, but you sure have a hell of a time putting it back when too much is removed...
Hamilton,
Interesting that you should say that they overuse the reamers. That was exactly what I suspected..If a reamer is predicted to wear out at X number of rounds, and actually was worn out at X minus 10, if my rifle was one of that 10, then my throat would be messed up. I think I will do what you suggest, and take it to a gunsmith to have him check the throat, and ream it properly.
About the only good thing I can say about that short throat, is that it will be easier for me to fix a short throat by having a proper reamer used on it, than it would be to try and fix one that had too long of a throat. You can take material off, but you sure have a hell of a time putting it back when too much is removed...
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
I have had the exact same problem you described with a DPMS rifle I had bought many years ago.
I sent it in twice for the same problem and each time it was sent back "fixed".
I had spent almost $50 in shipping and I was getting no where.
Their responses were equally lame.
They would say that they "tuned up" my gun and replaced the fetzer valve or whatever (I can't remember exactly, but it was getting insulting).
And all it needed was a proper chamber.
It turns out they had sold LOTS of guns that did this, even to police departments. I'd wager they eventually took care of their LEO customers but everyone else I talked to, that had the same problem, got squat from DPMS.
I had told Dustin (He was the DPMS "go-to guy" at the time) that this rifle was not going to disappear and that many folks would buy it and curse DPMS for making a crappy AR.
Knowing what I know now, it could've been easily fixed by taking it to a gunsmith and having a 5.56 chamber reamer run through it.
I sold it on consignment and it became someone else's problem.
I really hated doing that.
That company wasted so much time and money cutting corners on their chamber reaming.
All they needed was competence, which I'm finding is more and more difficult to come by.
Google used to bring up a ton of similar complains on message boards about DPMS but I'm sure that this has faded, mostly into the past.
I believe that cutting a good chamber is a real skill, and of top importance in any good, reliable rifle.
I have had the exact same problem you described with a DPMS rifle I had bought many years ago.
I sent it in twice for the same problem and each time it was sent back "fixed".
I had spent almost $50 in shipping and I was getting no where.
Their responses were equally lame.
They would say that they "tuned up" my gun and replaced the fetzer valve or whatever (I can't remember exactly, but it was getting insulting).
And all it needed was a proper chamber.
It turns out they had sold LOTS of guns that did this, even to police departments. I'd wager they eventually took care of their LEO customers but everyone else I talked to, that had the same problem, got squat from DPMS.
I had told Dustin (He was the DPMS "go-to guy" at the time) that this rifle was not going to disappear and that many folks would buy it and curse DPMS for making a crappy AR.
Knowing what I know now, it could've been easily fixed by taking it to a gunsmith and having a 5.56 chamber reamer run through it.
I sold it on consignment and it became someone else's problem.
I really hated doing that.
That company wasted so much time and money cutting corners on their chamber reaming.
All they needed was competence, which I'm finding is more and more difficult to come by.
Google used to bring up a ton of similar complains on message boards about DPMS but I'm sure that this has faded, mostly into the past.
I believe that cutting a good chamber is a real skill, and of top importance in any good, reliable rifle.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
I have a SASS that shoots sub-1/2 consistantly without a glitch. It's picky about ammo though...anything other than Lake City or Federal Match and the groups open up to 1.5. I ran some Fiocchi 175 gr match through it recently and you'd think the bullets were freakin bent.
I have a SASS that shoots sub-1/2 consistantly without a glitch. It's picky about ammo though...anything other than Lake City or Federal Match and the groups open up to 1.5. I ran some Fiocchi 175 gr match through it recently and you'd think the bullets were freakin bent.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
I have three DPMS's - One 308 SASS, One AP4 308 16" barrel and a Mini-Sass. I have never had one problem with any of them and they all shoot very well. And, I have called DPMS on several occasions asking questions and they always took the time to help. I am a believer in DPMS and am happy to say so.
I have three DPMS's - One 308 SASS, One AP4 308 16" barrel and a Mini-Sass. I have never had one problem with any of them and they all shoot very well. And, I have called DPMS on several occasions asking questions and they always took the time to help. I am a believer in DPMS and am happy to say so.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Cerrosafe the chamber this will tell you everything you need to know.
~Mike
Cerrosafe the chamber this will tell you everything you need to know.
~Mike
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have three DPMS's - One 308 SASS, One AP4 308 16" barrel and a Mini-Sass. I have never had one problem with any of them and they all shoot very well. And, I have called DPMS on several occasions asking questions and they always took the time to help. I am a believer in DPMS and am happy to say so. </div></div>
Have you noticed any difference in accuracy with different loads with your SASS? I can knock the center out of a dime with mine providing that I use good ammo. I'm sure most rifles are this way but just wondering what you've seen.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JSTARSZ</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have three DPMS's - One 308 SASS, One AP4 308 16" barrel and a Mini-Sass. I have never had one problem with any of them and they all shoot very well. And, I have called DPMS on several occasions asking questions and they always took the time to help. I am a believer in DPMS and am happy to say so. </div></div>
Have you noticed any difference in accuracy with different loads with your SASS? I can knock the center out of a dime with mine providing that I use good ammo. I'm sure most rifles are this way but just wondering what you've seen.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
On my DPMS SASS LRT.308, I had to have the chamber polished and the barrel recrowned. It still does not function with the 4 brand new DPMS magazines that I have, but does run w/o a problem using the PMags. I have used FGMM 168s & 175s/LC M118 & M118LR without any problems at all.
I am using a ROC Button Head Buffer which has resulted in sub MOA from 100 to 800 yards. The factory buffer puts her close to MOA. The ROC buffer I am currently using is a protype. They do have these buffers available for AR-15/M16/M4. I run them in all of my AR-15s.
www.rangeroutreachcenter.com
On my DPMS SASS LRT.308, I had to have the chamber polished and the barrel recrowned. It still does not function with the 4 brand new DPMS magazines that I have, but does run w/o a problem using the PMags. I have used FGMM 168s & 175s/LC M118 & M118LR without any problems at all.
I am using a ROC Button Head Buffer which has resulted in sub MOA from 100 to 800 yards. The factory buffer puts her close to MOA. The ROC buffer I am currently using is a protype. They do have these buffers available for AR-15/M16/M4. I run them in all of my AR-15s.
www.rangeroutreachcenter.com
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had problems with mine that act like a short throat. I returned it to DPMS who said they replaced a magazine..I never had any feeding problems though, nor did I report any. They said the throat was fine.
So, I'll have to find out for myself why cases stick in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rims off....and why unfired rounds come out of the chamber with the lands and grooves engraved on the bullet.
All of which were reported to DPMS.
I fired Winchester white box, and Federal red box...when DPMS heard about the white box, they acted as if I were putting ammo from some 3rd world country down the bore. I'm sure as hell not going to break it in with 300 rounds of Federal GMM though! </div></div>
I have a DPMS LR-308b, had some cases sticking so i followed the recomendation of a post I read somewhere and polished the chamber with flitz metal polish on a 20ga bore mop, no more sticky cases.
Here are the Max COL. for a few bullets in my rifle
Nosler 125 BT 2.901
Nosler 168 CC 2.857
Hornady 150 FMJ 2.807
Hornady 150 SST 2.859
Hornady 178 A-Max 2.851
Sierra 175 SMK 2.842
Again these lengths put the bullets touching the lands, hope it helps somebody. So pretty much any bullet loaded to 2.800 should not touch, unless your handloading round nose bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unknown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had problems with mine that act like a short throat. I returned it to DPMS who said they replaced a magazine..I never had any feeding problems though, nor did I report any. They said the throat was fine.
So, I'll have to find out for myself why cases stick in the chamber, and the extractor rips the rims off....and why unfired rounds come out of the chamber with the lands and grooves engraved on the bullet.
All of which were reported to DPMS.
I fired Winchester white box, and Federal red box...when DPMS heard about the white box, they acted as if I were putting ammo from some 3rd world country down the bore. I'm sure as hell not going to break it in with 300 rounds of Federal GMM though! </div></div>
I have a DPMS LR-308b, had some cases sticking so i followed the recomendation of a post I read somewhere and polished the chamber with flitz metal polish on a 20ga bore mop, no more sticky cases.
Here are the Max COL. for a few bullets in my rifle
Nosler 125 BT 2.901
Nosler 168 CC 2.857
Hornady 150 FMJ 2.807
Hornady 150 SST 2.859
Hornady 178 A-Max 2.851
Sierra 175 SMK 2.842
Again these lengths put the bullets touching the lands, hope it helps somebody. So pretty much any bullet loaded to 2.800 should not touch, unless your handloading round nose bullets
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will it reveal roughness? </div></div>
Yes...it will provide you with an exact inverse copy of your chamber.
Google it.
MUST be removed in 30-40 mins.
Most high level BR guys do it to monitor throat erosion and the seating to lands.
Haven't heard of anyone doing an 'AR' though.
~Mike
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will it reveal roughness? </div></div>
Yes...it will provide you with an exact inverse copy of your chamber.
Google it.
MUST be removed in 30-40 mins.
Most high level BR guys do it to monitor throat erosion and the seating to lands.
Haven't heard of anyone doing an 'AR' though.
~Mike
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dreamweaver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will it reveal roughness? </div></div>
Yes...it will provide you with an exact inverse copy of your chamber.
Google it.
MUST be removed in 30-40 mins.
Most high level BR guys do it to monitor throat erosion and the seating to lands.
Haven't heard of anyone doing an 'AR' though.
~Mike </div></div>
that is a great idea i have to try that too.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dreamweaver</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hamilton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Will it reveal roughness? </div></div>
Yes...it will provide you with an exact inverse copy of your chamber.
Google it.
MUST be removed in 30-40 mins.
Most high level BR guys do it to monitor throat erosion and the seating to lands.
Haven't heard of anyone doing an 'AR' though.
~Mike </div></div>
that is a great idea i have to try that too.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine functions flawlessly...just a minor accuracy issue with anything other than good match loads. Both Federal and LC match will give me groups like this all day long...
</div></div>
Well, concidering the size of a dime (aprox .700") thats close to a 1.1 to 1.2 moa group. 4 shot? Its a good group but thats a long, long way from the "consistantly, all day sub .5 moa" you claimed in the earlier post. It takes a fine rifle to consistantly shoot sub .5 moa groups. Few customs truely do it and even fewer shooters can. Not saying you cant, just that THAT group dosn't even come close to proving it.
okie
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine functions flawlessly...just a minor accuracy issue with anything other than good match loads. Both Federal and LC match will give me groups like this all day long...
Well, concidering the size of a dime (aprox .700") thats close to a 1.1 to 1.2 moa group. 4 shot? Its a good group but thats a long, long way from the "consistantly, all day sub .5 moa" you claimed in the earlier post. It takes a fine rifle to consistantly shoot sub .5 moa groups. Few customs truely do it and even fewer shooters can. Not saying you cant, just that THAT group dosn't even come close to proving it.
okie
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
That group measures under 1/2 inch and was fired off of a cheap wobbly bipod with no rear support. Aren't the guys <span style="font-style: italic">"doing it"</span> shooting high-$$ bolt guns using essentially machines and sand bags to hold their guns for them so they won't break a nail? Hell, this is what is essentially a mid-grade auto with a mid-grade quick-detach scope (removed and reinstalled for every session without re-zeroing) firing off of ...well...sticks.
Unless I'm measuring incorrectly (it's possible) isn't a group measured from the round centers? And isn't 1 MOA @ 100yds something like 1.047 inches? (The stray was a sighter, winds were 15 knots)
Either way, yes...all day long and it impresses the hell out of me.
That group measures under 1/2 inch and was fired off of a cheap wobbly bipod with no rear support. Aren't the guys <span style="font-style: italic">"doing it"</span> shooting high-$$ bolt guns using essentially machines and sand bags to hold their guns for them so they won't break a nail? Hell, this is what is essentially a mid-grade auto with a mid-grade quick-detach scope (removed and reinstalled for every session without re-zeroing) firing off of ...well...sticks.
Unless I'm measuring incorrectly (it's possible) isn't a group measured from the round centers? And isn't 1 MOA @ 100yds something like 1.047 inches? (The stray was a sighter, winds were 15 knots)
Either way, yes...all day long and it impresses the hell out of me.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine functions flawlessly...just a minor accuracy issue with anything other than good match loads. Both Federal and LC match will give me groups like this all day long...
</div></div>
Well, concidering the size of a dime (aprox .700") thats close to a 1.1 to 1.2 moa group. 4 shot? Its a good group but thats a long, long way from the "consistantly, all day sub .5 moa" you claimed in the earlier post. It takes a fine rifle to consistantly shoot sub .5 moa groups. Few customs truely do it and even fewer shooters can. Not saying you cant, just that THAT group dosn't even come close to proving it.
okie</div></div>
First, BattleAxe did not make any claim. His factual comments and example are typical from marksmen shooting the DPMS rifle. With a really good position, as well as consistent sight alignment and trigger control, groups could be even smaller, in part due to the gun's easily managed recoil which inspires consistant control over the rifle.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mine functions flawlessly...just a minor accuracy issue with anything other than good match loads. Both Federal and LC match will give me groups like this all day long...
Well, concidering the size of a dime (aprox .700") thats close to a 1.1 to 1.2 moa group. 4 shot? Its a good group but thats a long, long way from the "consistantly, all day sub .5 moa" you claimed in the earlier post. It takes a fine rifle to consistantly shoot sub .5 moa groups. Few customs truely do it and even fewer shooters can. Not saying you cant, just that THAT group dosn't even come close to proving it.
okie</div></div>
First, BattleAxe did not make any claim. His factual comments and example are typical from marksmen shooting the DPMS rifle. With a really good position, as well as consistent sight alignment and trigger control, groups could be even smaller, in part due to the gun's easily managed recoil which inspires consistant control over the rifle.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a SASS that shoots sub-1/2 consistantly without a glitch. </div></div>
Sorry guys, but its a "claim". Nothing is fact just because its is stated by either of you...or me. He said nothing about any "sighter" or anything else in his earlier post. Hell, let me go pick the best three shots from each of the five shot targets I shot sunday.....damn!...I've got several sub .5 moa rifles I didn't know I had and they did it all day! Sterling, I wont get into arguing how fantastic DPMS rifles are or how "easily managed" the large caliber ARs reciol impulse is, competitors all over the country are constantly trying different things to "manage" it, you believe what you will. BattleAxe, if you have that good of a rifle then good for you, you're lucky. I stand by what I said about the target though and I think its pretty easy to look at it and see how I came to my conclusion.
okie
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a SASS that shoots sub-1/2 consistantly without a glitch. </div></div>
Sorry guys, but its a "claim". Nothing is fact just because its is stated by either of you...or me. He said nothing about any "sighter" or anything else in his earlier post. Hell, let me go pick the best three shots from each of the five shot targets I shot sunday.....damn!...I've got several sub .5 moa rifles I didn't know I had and they did it all day! Sterling, I wont get into arguing how fantastic DPMS rifles are or how "easily managed" the large caliber ARs reciol impulse is, competitors all over the country are constantly trying different things to "manage" it, you believe what you will. BattleAxe, if you have that good of a rifle then good for you, you're lucky. I stand by what I said about the target though and I think its pretty easy to look at it and see how I came to my conclusion.
okie
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Here's a thought flipper...you're taking my post and reason for posting that target wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out of context.
Here's freakin "claim" for you...
You need to go take a Midol and get back to your needlepoint.
Here's a thought flipper...you're taking my post and reason for posting that target wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out of context.
Here's freakin "claim" for you...
You need to go take a Midol and get back to your needlepoint.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Blow it out your ass. Sorry I could'nt read your mind ass hat. The target you posted is what I said. Flip this.
okie
Blow it out your ass. Sorry I could'nt read your mind ass hat. The target you posted is what I said. Flip this.
okie
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blow it out your ass. Sorry I could'nt read your mind ass hat. The target you posted is what I said. Flip this.okie </div></div>
I have but one feeling and you're absolutely not capable of hurting it sparky. You're the one that jumped all over my post for no apparent reason. What, do I need to post all of my targets? Do I exist to prove anything to some keyboard commando or internet sniper?
The SASS is a <span style="text-decoration: underline">known</span> precision instrument. I don't have to claim anything that isn't common knowledge. Here...I'll play the same game with you and maybe you'll get my point...
<span style="font-style: italic">You don't even own a gun. As far as I'm concerned you're just some poser that may or may not own a BB gun and a slingshot. I haven't seen your guns and couldn't believe the pics if I did since you may be posting from a prison cell while nursing your anal puncture wound and dreaming of chocolate starfish.</span>
Pretty dumb don't you think?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Blow it out your ass. Sorry I could'nt read your mind ass hat. The target you posted is what I said. Flip this.okie </div></div>
I have but one feeling and you're absolutely not capable of hurting it sparky. You're the one that jumped all over my post for no apparent reason. What, do I need to post all of my targets? Do I exist to prove anything to some keyboard commando or internet sniper?
The SASS is a <span style="text-decoration: underline">known</span> precision instrument. I don't have to claim anything that isn't common knowledge. Here...I'll play the same game with you and maybe you'll get my point...
<span style="font-style: italic">You don't even own a gun. As far as I'm concerned you're just some poser that may or may not own a BB gun and a slingshot. I haven't seen your guns and couldn't believe the pics if I did since you may be posting from a prison cell while nursing your anal puncture wound and dreaming of chocolate starfish.</span>
Pretty dumb don't you think?
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Wasn't trying to hurt your feelings, although I obviously did. I did not "jump all over" your post but called it like it is, pure and simple. You havn't hurt my feeling either, it'd take a whole lot more than name calling and "anal puncture" talk to do that. You come up with that chocolate starfish deal all on your own, that from experience? The DPMS is a precision instrument....I guess. It is however, a long way from being a "known" sub .5moa "precision instrument". Common knowlege my ass. Doubt I'm the only one here that will dissagree with you there. Its gotten to where .5 moa rifles as as thick as flees on a hounds back on this forum and I call bull shit when it applies. Been shootin long enough to know that they are few, even with the UBER accurate DPMS line. If your rifle does it and you post pics to prove it, then make sure they do.
As for your last statement....You're right, it is pretty dumb and a little bit disturbing on a public forum. Glad you said it instead of me. BTW, my reputation here speaks for itself, I never claimed to be a sniper or commando. Enjoy your "known precision instrument" I'm done.
okie
Wasn't trying to hurt your feelings, although I obviously did. I did not "jump all over" your post but called it like it is, pure and simple. You havn't hurt my feeling either, it'd take a whole lot more than name calling and "anal puncture" talk to do that. You come up with that chocolate starfish deal all on your own, that from experience? The DPMS is a precision instrument....I guess. It is however, a long way from being a "known" sub .5moa "precision instrument". Common knowlege my ass. Doubt I'm the only one here that will dissagree with you there. Its gotten to where .5 moa rifles as as thick as flees on a hounds back on this forum and I call bull shit when it applies. Been shootin long enough to know that they are few, even with the UBER accurate DPMS line. If your rifle does it and you post pics to prove it, then make sure they do.
As for your last statement....You're right, it is pretty dumb and a little bit disturbing on a public forum. Glad you said it instead of me. BTW, my reputation here speaks for itself, I never claimed to be a sniper or commando. Enjoy your "known precision instrument" I'm done.
okie
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wasn't trying to hurt your feelings, although I obviously did. I did not "jump all over" your post but called it like it is, pure and simple. You havn't hurt my feeling either, it'd take a whole lot more than name calling and "anal puncture" talk to do that. You come up with that chocolate starfish deal all on your own, that from experience? The DPMS is a precision instrument....I guess. It is however, a long way from being a "known" sub .5moa "precision instrument". Common knowlege my ass. Doubt I'm the only one here that will dissagree with you there. Its gotten to where .5 moa rifles as as thick as flees on a hounds back on this forum and I call bull shit when it applies. Been shootin long enough to know that they are few, even with the UBER accurate DPMS line. If your rifle does it and you post pics to prove it, then make sure they do.
As for your last statement....You're right, it is pretty dumb and a little bit disturbing on a public forum. Glad you said it instead of me. BTW, my reputation here speaks for itself, I never claimed to be a sniper or commando. Enjoy your "known precision instrument" I'm done.
okie </div></div>
You didn't hurt my feelings okie, it's just that I don't take crap from anyone. Had you been standing in front of me while calling me a liar (which you essentially did) instead of hiding behind a keyboard, you'd have found out rather quickly that you picked a fight with the wrong freakin' squid.
Quite frankly, your "reputation" means jack squat in electric la-la land and means even less in my world. I'm not sure who placed you in my chain of command as a watchdog of the information I choose to post, but I can assure you...they made a huge mistake.
Hell I'll listen to what you have to say and maybe even agree with you on occasion BUT treat me like a kid, and I promise you I'll make you look like an idiot in front of your electronic friends.
You're correct...you are done.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wasn't trying to hurt your feelings, although I obviously did. I did not "jump all over" your post but called it like it is, pure and simple. You havn't hurt my feeling either, it'd take a whole lot more than name calling and "anal puncture" talk to do that. You come up with that chocolate starfish deal all on your own, that from experience? The DPMS is a precision instrument....I guess. It is however, a long way from being a "known" sub .5moa "precision instrument". Common knowlege my ass. Doubt I'm the only one here that will dissagree with you there. Its gotten to where .5 moa rifles as as thick as flees on a hounds back on this forum and I call bull shit when it applies. Been shootin long enough to know that they are few, even with the UBER accurate DPMS line. If your rifle does it and you post pics to prove it, then make sure they do.
As for your last statement....You're right, it is pretty dumb and a little bit disturbing on a public forum. Glad you said it instead of me. BTW, my reputation here speaks for itself, I never claimed to be a sniper or commando. Enjoy your "known precision instrument" I'm done.
okie </div></div>
You didn't hurt my feelings okie, it's just that I don't take crap from anyone. Had you been standing in front of me while calling me a liar (which you essentially did) instead of hiding behind a keyboard, you'd have found out rather quickly that you picked a fight with the wrong freakin' squid.
Quite frankly, your "reputation" means jack squat in electric la-la land and means even less in my world. I'm not sure who placed you in my chain of command as a watchdog of the information I choose to post, but I can assure you...they made a huge mistake.
Hell I'll listen to what you have to say and maybe even agree with you on occasion BUT treat me like a kid, and I promise you I'll make you look like an idiot in front of your electronic friends.
You're correct...you are done.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Why dont you take a standard benchrest target that has nine shooting targets on it and shoot 5 shots into each one thus proving or disproving your rifle and your ability. I think this would either prove your point or show it a farse..I shoot benchrest alot and would like to see this from a gas gun,Might even win me over..And I dont like Ar platforms, but if they are that Accurate I might!
Why dont you take a standard benchrest target that has nine shooting targets on it and shoot 5 shots into each one thus proving or disproving your rifle and your ability. I think this would either prove your point or show it a farse..I shoot benchrest alot and would like to see this from a gas gun,Might even win me over..And I dont like Ar platforms, but if they are that Accurate I might!
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Done? Nah, I changed my mind. YOU are the one giving me crap. YOU are the one getting personal, making threats and hiding behind your electronic bodyguard. Its always easy to say what you'd do when you dont have to. Come kick my ass if you want, you wont want to have to do it twice. This whole thing came from the fact that you posted a 1 moa+ target to prove a sub .5 moa rifle and I called it like it was. Then one of your little girlfriends came up and backed you on it and made you feel like a big girl so YOU decided to get personal. Calling me names and threatening me on your keyboard will never make ME look like an idiot on this forum but you do whatever makes you feel good Susan.
Done? Nah, I changed my mind. YOU are the one giving me crap. YOU are the one getting personal, making threats and hiding behind your electronic bodyguard. Its always easy to say what you'd do when you dont have to. Come kick my ass if you want, you wont want to have to do it twice. This whole thing came from the fact that you posted a 1 moa+ target to prove a sub .5 moa rifle and I called it like it was. Then one of your little girlfriends came up and backed you on it and made you feel like a big girl so YOU decided to get personal. Calling me names and threatening me on your keyboard will never make ME look like an idiot on this forum but you do whatever makes you feel good Susan.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stevep51d</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Why dont you take a standard benchrest target that has nine shooting targets on it and shoot 5 shots into each one thus proving or disproving your rifle and your ability. I think this would either prove your point or show it a farse..I shoot benchrest alot and would like to see this from a gas gun,Might even win me over..And I dont like Ar platforms, but if they are that Accurate I might! </div></div>
It wouldn't prove anything. I'll admit up front that I'm no bench rest shooter. Never claimed to be. My shooting experience is purely from service rifle/iron sight work with a M1A. I have maybe 10 hours experience shooting through glass. My SASS is 3 months old and have fired maybe 400 rounds through it. Every time I shoot it and it <span style="text-decoration: underline">doesn't</span> shoot 1/2 MOA, I know exactly why and it has nothing to do with the rifle...its absolutely me every time. I can tell, and anyone that shoots service rifle with irons knows exactly where the sight picture is when things go bang and knows exactly what I'm saying (if they're any good)
I typically shoot 4 shot groups with the 1st as a sighter for wind. Not for any other reason than I shoot only match pills and they're not cheap. Reading the wind visually is not practical at the range I use so its easier to just spend a sighter round. That and I didn't think I'd find myself having to prove ridiculous things to some "internet guy". That target I posted was no fluke...
Nor was this one or the 5 others I shot with it. Bench rest targets? I seriously wouldn't know what one looked like if it were to bite me LOL. I get these cheap (free) things from some web site and they're good enough for my purposes although they're a bear to see with the sun on them since they're printed on white copier paper.
With that said, <span style="text-decoration: underline">I</span> never claimed to be a consistent sub-1/2 MOA shooter, but I'm absolutely certain that the gun is, in the right hands of course. The only way to prove it is to buy one of those shooting vice/gadgets to take the human element out of the equation and I'm not going to do that just because some forum guru doesn't believe me. What on earth do I have to gain by making this stuff up? The Dept. of the Navy seems to think I'm an expert shot, at least with irons...maybe they're making things up too? Given what I'm seeing here in this thread I don't think there's anything I could post that couldn't be disputed as a fake.
Truth be told...I don't want every swingin' dick having one of these things. They're not real common and I'm beginning to like it that way.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stevep51d</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Why dont you take a standard benchrest target that has nine shooting targets on it and shoot 5 shots into each one thus proving or disproving your rifle and your ability. I think this would either prove your point or show it a farse..I shoot benchrest alot and would like to see this from a gas gun,Might even win me over..And I dont like Ar platforms, but if they are that Accurate I might! </div></div>
It wouldn't prove anything. I'll admit up front that I'm no bench rest shooter. Never claimed to be. My shooting experience is purely from service rifle/iron sight work with a M1A. I have maybe 10 hours experience shooting through glass. My SASS is 3 months old and have fired maybe 400 rounds through it. Every time I shoot it and it <span style="text-decoration: underline">doesn't</span> shoot 1/2 MOA, I know exactly why and it has nothing to do with the rifle...its absolutely me every time. I can tell, and anyone that shoots service rifle with irons knows exactly where the sight picture is when things go bang and knows exactly what I'm saying (if they're any good)
I typically shoot 4 shot groups with the 1st as a sighter for wind. Not for any other reason than I shoot only match pills and they're not cheap. Reading the wind visually is not practical at the range I use so its easier to just spend a sighter round. That and I didn't think I'd find myself having to prove ridiculous things to some "internet guy". That target I posted was no fluke...
Nor was this one or the 5 others I shot with it. Bench rest targets? I seriously wouldn't know what one looked like if it were to bite me LOL. I get these cheap (free) things from some web site and they're good enough for my purposes although they're a bear to see with the sun on them since they're printed on white copier paper.
With that said, <span style="text-decoration: underline">I</span> never claimed to be a consistent sub-1/2 MOA shooter, but I'm absolutely certain that the gun is, in the right hands of course. The only way to prove it is to buy one of those shooting vice/gadgets to take the human element out of the equation and I'm not going to do that just because some forum guru doesn't believe me. What on earth do I have to gain by making this stuff up? The Dept. of the Navy seems to think I'm an expert shot, at least with irons...maybe they're making things up too? Given what I'm seeing here in this thread I don't think there's anything I could post that couldn't be disputed as a fake.
Truth be told...I don't want every swingin' dick having one of these things. They're not real common and I'm beginning to like it that way.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done? Nah, I changed my mind. YOU are the one giving me crap. YOU are the one getting personal, making threats and hiding behind your electronic bodyguard. Its always easy to say what you'd do when you dont have to. Come kick my ass if you want, you wont want to have to do it twice. This whole thing came from the fact that you posted a 1 moa+ target to prove a sub .5 moa rifle and I called it like it was. Then one of your little girlfriends came up and backed you on it and made you feel like a big girl so YOU decided to get personal. Calling me names and threatening me on your keyboard will never make ME look like an idiot on this forum but you do whatever makes you feel good Susan. </div></div>
Oh Boo-freakin-hoo. You earned all the crap you received.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Done? Nah, I changed my mind. YOU are the one giving me crap. YOU are the one getting personal, making threats and hiding behind your electronic bodyguard. Its always easy to say what you'd do when you dont have to. Come kick my ass if you want, you wont want to have to do it twice. This whole thing came from the fact that you posted a 1 moa+ target to prove a sub .5 moa rifle and I called it like it was. Then one of your little girlfriends came up and backed you on it and made you feel like a big girl so YOU decided to get personal. Calling me names and threatening me on your keyboard will never make ME look like an idiot on this forum but you do whatever makes you feel good Susan. </div></div>
Oh Boo-freakin-hoo. You earned all the crap you received.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
"I typically shoot 4 shot groups with the 1st as a sighter for wind. Not for any other reason than I shoot only match pills and they're not cheap. Reading the wind visually is not practical at the range I use so its easier to just spend a sighter round. That and I didn't think I'd find myself having to prove ridiculous things to some "internet guy". That target I posted was no fluke..."
BattleAxe, from the begining, you never said anything like this. This might have made things a little clearer if its true. No one ever accused you of claiming to be a sub .5 moa "shooter". My dad was concidered "expert" too, I'm very familiar with that. To quote you, "I have an SASS that shoots sub .5 moa without a glitch",... as I said, maybe it does. You then posted a pic with a group that dosn't prove that, which is what I said. I'm growing tired of posting the facts over and over. You took exception to me pointing this out and you decided to get personal. Now, I'm an "internet guy"? Let me get this straight. I'm on the net, trading post to a guy on the "internet" but he's NOT an internet guy??
"Boo-freakin-who"? You're USN retired? You're one hell of a reprasentative. You argue like my ex wife, glad she's gone too....bye.
okie
"I typically shoot 4 shot groups with the 1st as a sighter for wind. Not for any other reason than I shoot only match pills and they're not cheap. Reading the wind visually is not practical at the range I use so its easier to just spend a sighter round. That and I didn't think I'd find myself having to prove ridiculous things to some "internet guy". That target I posted was no fluke..."
BattleAxe, from the begining, you never said anything like this. This might have made things a little clearer if its true. No one ever accused you of claiming to be a sub .5 moa "shooter". My dad was concidered "expert" too, I'm very familiar with that. To quote you, "I have an SASS that shoots sub .5 moa without a glitch",... as I said, maybe it does. You then posted a pic with a group that dosn't prove that, which is what I said. I'm growing tired of posting the facts over and over. You took exception to me pointing this out and you decided to get personal. Now, I'm an "internet guy"? Let me get this straight. I'm on the net, trading post to a guy on the "internet" but he's NOT an internet guy??
"Boo-freakin-who"? You're USN retired? You're one hell of a reprasentative. You argue like my ex wife, glad she's gone too....bye.
okie
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Both you need to knock it off or take it to PM's. Get back on topic before this gets worse.
I think the DPMS lr-308 rifles are a pretty decent bargain considering the uppers are extruded and the lowers are milled from billet. Someone spent a large amount of time putting together that system. Mine fits like a glove and seems to shoot just fine. I built mine from a stripped upper and lower and the whole thing couldn't have been much easier. Considering most parts are readily available and you may be able to swap a few parts here and there to fit your needs even better than a stock SASS, I would strongly look into assembling your own. The assembly was actually easier than several of the AR15's I've put together. Just a thought...
Both you need to knock it off or take it to PM's. Get back on topic before this gets worse.
I think the DPMS lr-308 rifles are a pretty decent bargain considering the uppers are extruded and the lowers are milled from billet. Someone spent a large amount of time putting together that system. Mine fits like a glove and seems to shoot just fine. I built mine from a stripped upper and lower and the whole thing couldn't have been much easier. Considering most parts are readily available and you may be able to swap a few parts here and there to fit your needs even better than a stock SASS, I would strongly look into assembling your own. The assembly was actually easier than several of the AR15's I've put together. Just a thought...
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
All,
I think most any modern rifle that is not broken will shoot exactly where pointed. All that's necessary is for the shooter to understand where that is, mantaining control of the rifle until the bullet has left the bore, that's to say, execute the firing task without disturbing aim. There is nothing esoteric or apocalyptic about good shooting; and, certainly, today, if bullets aren't all hitting right-in-there, it's mostly about the shooter not coming to an exact understanding for where the gun was pointed. This stuff is ridiculously simple, yet, some folks, usually those without any marksmanship training, persist with their notion that it's all about the rifle.
Here's my notion: properly align the sights and pull the trigger smoothly from a steady support to expect good hits. Make your position consistent and muscularly relaxed to the molecular level and expect bullets to group in the one hole arena. Until distracted, most shots will hit to the consistency of the bullets themselves.
The only thing that is clear here is that BattleAxe knows how to execute the firing task; and, he is shooting a rifle which is not broken. Anything else is speculation and assumption, although I have the impression that BattleAxe knows how to shoot. I think he'd get good results with most anything shouldered.
All,
I think most any modern rifle that is not broken will shoot exactly where pointed. All that's necessary is for the shooter to understand where that is, mantaining control of the rifle until the bullet has left the bore, that's to say, execute the firing task without disturbing aim. There is nothing esoteric or apocalyptic about good shooting; and, certainly, today, if bullets aren't all hitting right-in-there, it's mostly about the shooter not coming to an exact understanding for where the gun was pointed. This stuff is ridiculously simple, yet, some folks, usually those without any marksmanship training, persist with their notion that it's all about the rifle.
Here's my notion: properly align the sights and pull the trigger smoothly from a steady support to expect good hits. Make your position consistent and muscularly relaxed to the molecular level and expect bullets to group in the one hole arena. Until distracted, most shots will hit to the consistency of the bullets themselves.
The only thing that is clear here is that BattleAxe knows how to execute the firing task; and, he is shooting a rifle which is not broken. Anything else is speculation and assumption, although I have the impression that BattleAxe knows how to shoot. I think he'd get good results with most anything shouldered.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BattleAxe, from the begining, you never said anything like this. This might have made things a little clearer if its true. </div></div>
I shouldn’t have to okie. I made a rhetorical comment based on real world experience directly related to the context of this thread. Nothing more. There was no secret agenda and I’m surely not trying to sell guns for DPMS. Quite frankly, (and you’re not the only one) I don’t understand why people get so freakin bent over the notion that technology has reached a point where commonly available autos are teasing the sub-1/2 MOA mark. We should welcome and exploit this…not go out of our way to dispute and discredit it. This is truly a great day for all shooters.
Lastly, most think I’m I fine representative of our armed forces. I take crap from no one and willingly jump head first into the pile. If <span style="text-decoration: underline">we all</span> weren’t exactly like this…you’d likely be speaking Russian or Arabic.
And you can have that last insult…secretly I think you want to be my BFF anyway
Hell…I can’t wait to show you the sub-MOA shotgun I’m building LOL.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BattleAxe, from the begining, you never said anything like this. This might have made things a little clearer if its true. </div></div>
I shouldn’t have to okie. I made a rhetorical comment based on real world experience directly related to the context of this thread. Nothing more. There was no secret agenda and I’m surely not trying to sell guns for DPMS. Quite frankly, (and you’re not the only one) I don’t understand why people get so freakin bent over the notion that technology has reached a point where commonly available autos are teasing the sub-1/2 MOA mark. We should welcome and exploit this…not go out of our way to dispute and discredit it. This is truly a great day for all shooters.
Lastly, most think I’m I fine representative of our armed forces. I take crap from no one and willingly jump head first into the pile. If <span style="text-decoration: underline">we all</span> weren’t exactly like this…you’d likely be speaking Russian or Arabic.
And you can have that last insult…secretly I think you want to be my BFF anyway
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
Gentleman, NOTHING was ever said by me about BattleAxe's shooting ability, its obvious he knows how and I never brought it into question. Sterling S., please stop trying to do just that, its easy to see BA is capable of speaking for himself. I am fully aware of the quality of the modern rifle, I know you guys have a lot of experience and I've shot a year or two myself. Enough that I dont need any lessons on breathing and muscle control, not today anyway.
BA no insult was intended, I simply commented on the facts as I saw them. I thank you for your service and respect you for it. Look forward to seeing the groups from that shotgun.
okie
Gentleman, NOTHING was ever said by me about BattleAxe's shooting ability, its obvious he knows how and I never brought it into question. Sterling S., please stop trying to do just that, its easy to see BA is capable of speaking for himself. I am fully aware of the quality of the modern rifle, I know you guys have a lot of experience and I've shot a year or two myself. Enough that I dont need any lessons on breathing and muscle control, not today anyway.
BA no insult was intended, I simply commented on the facts as I saw them. I thank you for your service and respect you for it. Look forward to seeing the groups from that shotgun.
okie
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gentleman, NOTHING was ever said by me about BattleAxe's shooting ability, its obvious he knows how and I never brought it into question. Sterling S., please stop trying to do just that, its easy to see BA is capable of speaking for himself. I am fully aware of the quality of the modern rifle, I know you guys have a lot of experience and I've shot a year or two myself. Enough that I dont need any lessons on breathing and muscle control, not today anyway.
BA no insult was intended, I simply commented on the facts as I saw them. I thank you for your service and respect you for it. Look forward to seeing the groups from that shotgun.
okie </div></div>
Listen. No harm no foul. Lets move on and go shooting. I've finally got a weekend off and the range is calling.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: okiefired</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Gentleman, NOTHING was ever said by me about BattleAxe's shooting ability, its obvious he knows how and I never brought it into question. Sterling S., please stop trying to do just that, its easy to see BA is capable of speaking for himself. I am fully aware of the quality of the modern rifle, I know you guys have a lot of experience and I've shot a year or two myself. Enough that I dont need any lessons on breathing and muscle control, not today anyway.
BA no insult was intended, I simply commented on the facts as I saw them. I thank you for your service and respect you for it. Look forward to seeing the groups from that shotgun.
okie </div></div>
Listen. No harm no foul. Lets move on and go shooting. I've finally got a weekend off and the range is calling.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,
I think most any modern rifle that is not broken will shoot exactly where pointed. All that's necessary is for the shooter to understand where that is, mantaining control of the rifle until the bullet has left the bore, that's to say, execute the firing task without disturbing aim. There is nothing esoteric or apocalyptic about good shooting; and, certainly, today, if bullets aren't all hitting right-in-there, it's mostly about the shooter not coming to an exact understanding for where the gun was pointed. This stuff is ridiculously simple, yet, some folks, usually those without any marksmanship training, persist with their notion that it's all about the rifle.
Here's my notion: properly align the sights and pull the trigger smoothly from a steady support to expect good hits. Make your position consistent and muscularly relaxed to the molecular level and expect bullets to group in the one hole arena. Until distracted, most shots will hit to the consistency of the bullets themselves.
The only thing that is clear here is that BattleAxe knows how to execute the firing task; and, he is shooting a rifle which is not broken. Anything else is speculation and assumption, although I have the impression that BattleAxe knows how to shoot. I think he'd get good results with most anything shouldered. </div></div>
I appreciate that and my hat's off to your DM accomplishment...It was a DM in my unit that recruited me into service rifle/pistol back in 91 and the guy was amazing to say the least. I was hooked ever since. It was my goal to to achieve DM status but my deployment schedule and Desert Storm made it impossible to shoot as much as I needed. I did get to shoot at the Pac-Fleet match in 93 and picked up 3rd place team pistol my 1st time out, but couldn't quite place in the rifle category. Now that I'm in more control of things I'm going to jump back in.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">All,
I think most any modern rifle that is not broken will shoot exactly where pointed. All that's necessary is for the shooter to understand where that is, mantaining control of the rifle until the bullet has left the bore, that's to say, execute the firing task without disturbing aim. There is nothing esoteric or apocalyptic about good shooting; and, certainly, today, if bullets aren't all hitting right-in-there, it's mostly about the shooter not coming to an exact understanding for where the gun was pointed. This stuff is ridiculously simple, yet, some folks, usually those without any marksmanship training, persist with their notion that it's all about the rifle.
Here's my notion: properly align the sights and pull the trigger smoothly from a steady support to expect good hits. Make your position consistent and muscularly relaxed to the molecular level and expect bullets to group in the one hole arena. Until distracted, most shots will hit to the consistency of the bullets themselves.
The only thing that is clear here is that BattleAxe knows how to execute the firing task; and, he is shooting a rifle which is not broken. Anything else is speculation and assumption, although I have the impression that BattleAxe knows how to shoot. I think he'd get good results with most anything shouldered. </div></div>
I appreciate that and my hat's off to your DM accomplishment...It was a DM in my unit that recruited me into service rifle/pistol back in 91 and the guy was amazing to say the least. I was hooked ever since. It was my goal to to achieve DM status but my deployment schedule and Desert Storm made it impossible to shoot as much as I needed. I did get to shoot at the Pac-Fleet match in 93 and picked up 3rd place team pistol my 1st time out, but couldn't quite place in the rifle category. Now that I'm in more control of things I'm going to jump back in.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was I addressing you? No. </div></div>
Ha ha. Am I not included in the category of "All" ? Especially since BA and I were the only ones speaking on this thread for the past couple pages or so and I'm pretty sure you weren't addressing him. BTW, you weren't addressed by anyone in any way before you posted....but thats ok, its a public forum so we can say what we want and expect to be held accountable.
okie
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Was I addressing you? No. </div></div>
Ha ha. Am I not included in the category of "All" ? Especially since BA and I were the only ones speaking on this thread for the past couple pages or so and I'm pretty sure you weren't addressing him. BTW, you weren't addressed by anyone in any way before you posted....but thats ok, its a public forum so we can say what we want and expect to be held accountable.
okie
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
BattleAxe,
BTW, I sell the LRT SASS at the store in Louisville where I work part-time. Back about a year ago, a very good customer asked me to help him square his LRT SASS with an NF scope. He invited me to his range to shoot the rifle too. From a sandbag support on a bench, my first 5 shot group to zero revealed one hole barely bigger than the diameter of a single bullet (for any that think I'm exaggerating, I'll say the hole was the diameter of two bullets). What was impressive here was not so much the group as it was I did not have the sort of muscularly relaxed position I'd work to get shooting prone with tight sling. Also, the trigger was somewhat heavy, reducing my confidence in being able to pull the trigger smoothly. At any rate, I was impressed that it was so easy to come to an understanding for exactly where the gun was pointed, as well as be able to maintain extremely consistent control of the rifle until recoil subsided. I think the design, which supports consistent control until recoil subsides, is what makes this rifle, apparently, for many, so easy to shoot for precision.
I've been a fan of DPMS products for a while now as it appears they are well engineered, reliable, and have more added value than you'd expect for the price point. In particular, the integrated shell deflector/forward assist allows the rifle to be fired from the left shoulder in prone position without fear of breaking open a lip and/or knocking out some teeth.
BattleAxe,
BTW, I sell the LRT SASS at the store in Louisville where I work part-time. Back about a year ago, a very good customer asked me to help him square his LRT SASS with an NF scope. He invited me to his range to shoot the rifle too. From a sandbag support on a bench, my first 5 shot group to zero revealed one hole barely bigger than the diameter of a single bullet (for any that think I'm exaggerating, I'll say the hole was the diameter of two bullets). What was impressive here was not so much the group as it was I did not have the sort of muscularly relaxed position I'd work to get shooting prone with tight sling. Also, the trigger was somewhat heavy, reducing my confidence in being able to pull the trigger smoothly. At any rate, I was impressed that it was so easy to come to an understanding for exactly where the gun was pointed, as well as be able to maintain extremely consistent control of the rifle until recoil subsided. I think the design, which supports consistent control until recoil subsides, is what makes this rifle, apparently, for many, so easy to shoot for precision.
I've been a fan of DPMS products for a while now as it appears they are well engineered, reliable, and have more added value than you'd expect for the price point. In particular, the integrated shell deflector/forward assist allows the rifle to be fired from the left shoulder in prone position without fear of breaking open a lip and/or knocking out some teeth.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
My experience with it has been very similar and I have yet to be able to shoot it prone or from any reasonably relaxed position, usually having to shoot from a poorly made bench with the stability of a see-saw. I picked up a mono-pod for it and I'm going to try to get some prone firing in today to see what she's really made of.
I had trouble finding one initially and was told by one popular shop that there was a several month wait, until a DHS buddy turned me on to a little known tactical supply shop that caters to the local LEO/SWAT community. The SASS has become very popular with the SWAT guys and in this economy...the price point is definately part of that popularity. While surely not cheap, it's phenominally inexpensive for its performance.
As we can see on the forums, many can't believe believe the stories but what peopple are forgetting is that the SASS was developed specifically for military field trials in which it scored quite well for a very discrimminating audience. I believe it lost out only to Knight's Armament which won the contract for GI production.
If I had only one complaint it would be its appetite for match grade ammo. Anything other than quality stuff and sub-MOA performance deteriorates to 1.0-1.5 MOA, which given the mission-specific role of this rifle, is really not a valid complaint.
My experience with it has been very similar and I have yet to be able to shoot it prone or from any reasonably relaxed position, usually having to shoot from a poorly made bench with the stability of a see-saw. I picked up a mono-pod for it and I'm going to try to get some prone firing in today to see what she's really made of.
I had trouble finding one initially and was told by one popular shop that there was a several month wait, until a DHS buddy turned me on to a little known tactical supply shop that caters to the local LEO/SWAT community. The SASS has become very popular with the SWAT guys and in this economy...the price point is definately part of that popularity. While surely not cheap, it's phenominally inexpensive for its performance.
As we can see on the forums, many can't believe believe the stories but what peopple are forgetting is that the SASS was developed specifically for military field trials in which it scored quite well for a very discrimminating audience. I believe it lost out only to Knight's Armament which won the contract for GI production.
If I had only one complaint it would be its appetite for match grade ammo. Anything other than quality stuff and sub-MOA performance deteriorates to 1.0-1.5 MOA, which given the mission-specific role of this rifle, is really not a valid complaint.
Re: DPMS 7.62 Semi's
We've been waiting for 25 LRT SASS rifles ordered back in Oct. of 08. Hope to see them in a few days according to DPMS. A previous order of 3 rifles came into store inventory about a week ago and all of those rifles were sold before noon on day of arrival-the store opened at 10 am.
We've been waiting for 25 LRT SASS rifles ordered back in Oct. of 08. Hope to see them in a few days according to DPMS. A previous order of 3 rifles came into store inventory about a week ago and all of those rifles were sold before noon on day of arrival-the store opened at 10 am.
