DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

[steelcomp]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ...using extrusions instead of forgings</div></div>
The notion that an extruded receiver is lower quality is a myth. The extrusion process benefits the billet that's fed into it much the same way that forging benefits the metal. Extrusion has the added benefit of reducing finishing time. It still gets machined like a forged unit. I can't speak for all DPMS offerings but the SASS's receiver makes my Colt receiver look cheap by comparison. It's very nicely done and the machining is about flawless.

Planes flying over your house are full of very critical aluminum structural parts that have been extruded. </div></div>It's not a myth, and it's one of the reasons the DPMS is inferior to the Armalite. There's no comparison between a forging and an extrusion as far as structural integrity and using airplane parts as an example is just nonsense. The extruded parts don't know if they're in an airplane or a vacuum cleaner, so making the excuse that because they're in an airplane somehow makes them "superior" is ridiculous. The reason DPMS uses extrusions instead of forging is it's cheaper. Period. Does it do the job? It seems to. Is it as good or better than a forging? Not on your life. Same reason they use AR15-size take down and pivot pins. Do they do the job? They seem to. Are they as strong as the pins in an AR10? Not hardly. Is it cheaper to use an already existing pin than to make your own proprietary pins? Of course. Is it cheaper to use already existing magazine designs? Of course. Is ANY magazine on the market a better mag than the AR10 GenII mag? Nope. Armalite spent a lot of money perfecting that magazine instead of "going cheap", even if it was an outgrowth of the M14 mag, which in itself, is basically indestructable.
I'm not sayig the DPMS isn't what everyone says it is, but it <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> what some won't admit it to be. And as I said before, that's just my opinion.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not a myth, and it's one of the reasons the DPMS is inferior to the Armalite. There's no comparison between a forging and an extrusion as far as structural integrity and using airplane parts as an example is just nonsense. The extruded parts don't know if they're in an airplane or a vacuum cleaner, so making the excuse that because they're in an airplane somehow makes them "superior" is ridiculous. The reason DPMS uses extrusions instead of forging is it's cheaper. Period. Does it do the job? It seems to. Is it as good or better than a forging? Not on your life. Same reason they use AR15-size take down and pivot pins. Do they do the job? They seem to. Are they as strong as the pins in an AR10? Not hardly. Is it cheaper to use an already existing pin than to make your own proprietary pins? Of course. Is it cheaper to use already existing magazine designs? Of course. Is ANY magazine on the market a better mag than the AR10 GenII mag? Nope. Armalite spent a lot of money perfecting that magazine instead of "going cheap", even if it was an outgrowth of the M14 mag, which in itself, is basically indestructable.
I'm not sayig the DPMS isn't what everyone says it is, but it <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> what some won't admit it to be. And as I said before, that's just my opinion. </div></div>

When you're caught being wrong...changing the argument and putting words in my mouth won't make you appear right. Hell I'm starting to NOT like Armalites for no other sane reason than a tool like you seems to be their spokesmodel. You go girl...maybe you'll sell a few.

Here...I'll help you out. DPMS makes cheap ass crap and Armalite freakin rules dude. Now go suck off your Armalite and leave us alone.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It's not a myth, and it's one of the reasons the DPMS is inferior to the Armalite. There's no comparison between a forging and an extrusion as far as structural integrity and using airplane parts as an example is just nonsense. The extruded parts don't know if they're in an airplane or a vacuum cleaner, so making the excuse that because they're in an airplane somehow makes them "superior" is ridiculous. The reason DPMS uses extrusions instead of forging is it's cheaper. Period. Does it do the job? It seems to. Is it as good or better than a forging? Not on your life. Same reason they use AR15-size take down and pivot pins. Do they do the job? They seem to. Are they as strong as the pins in an AR10? Not hardly. Is it cheaper to use an already existing pin than to make your own proprietary pins? Of course. Is it cheaper to use already existing magazine designs? Of course. Is ANY magazine on the market a better mag than the AR10 GenII mag? Nope. Armalite spent a lot of money perfecting that magazine instead of "going cheap", even if it was an outgrowth of the M14 mag, which in itself, is basically indestructable.
I'm not sayig the DPMS isn't what everyone says it is, but it <span style="font-style: italic">is</span> what some won't admit it to be. And as I said before, that's just my opinion. </div></div>

When you're caught being wrong...changing the argument and putting words in my mouth won't make you appear right. Hell I'm starting to NOT like Armalites for no other sane reason than a tool like you seems to be their spokesmodel. You go girl...maybe you'll sell a few.

Here...I'll help you out. DPMS makes cheap ass crap and Armalite freakin rules dude. Now go suck off your Armalite and leave us alone. </div></div>LOL...run out of facts? Did I insult you somehow? Are you what, like 12 yrs old?

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL...run out of facts? Did I insult you somehow? Are you what, like 12 yrs old? </div></div>

Not at all. I just know better than to engage in a battle of wits or intelligence with an unarmed man. I'll bet you actually believe that "billet" is a type of aluminum.

 

[Oodin]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same reason they use AR15-size take down and pivot pins. Do they do the job? They seem to. Are they as strong as the pins in an AR10? Not hardly. Is it cheaper to use an already existing pin than to make your own proprietary pins? Of course. </div></div>

Why do you suppose they didn't make the pins, say, 1/2" in diameter on the AR-10? They would be stronger, proprietary and they would do the job. It's probably because it's not needed... the LR308 works and works fine. I'm not the most experienced person in the world, but I've never heard of someone SNAPPING a take-down pin on an LR308.

Also, and this is probably just me, I prefer it when a company utilizes already available hardware/parts rather than creating proprietary parts that do the exact same thing.

ETA: steelcomp, by your own admission you haven't been spouting any facts at all, just opinion. I can't help but feel that as childish as that last post was, Battleaxe has contributed more to this thread than you have.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oodin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you suppose they didn't make the pins, say, 1/2" in diameter on the AR-10? They would be stronger, proprietary and they would do the job. It's probably because it's not needed </div></div>

That logic won't work here. In fact, I have a Barret 98B with a takedown pin that looks identical in diameter or close to the one in my SASS. I think I may just need to take that cheap POS back and demand bigger pins.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oodin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Same reason they use AR15-size take down and pivot pins. Do they do the job? They seem to. Are they as strong as the pins in an AR10? Not hardly. Is it cheaper to use an already existing pin than to make your own proprietary pins? Of course. </div></div>

Why do you suppose they didn't make the pins, say, 1/2" in diameter on the AR-10? They would be stronger, proprietary and they would do the job. It's probably because it's not needed... the LR308 works and works fine. I'm not the most experienced person in the world, but I've never heard of someone SNAPPING a take-down pin on an LR308.

Also, and this is probably just me, I prefer it when a company utilizes already available hardware/parts rather than creating proprietary parts that do the exact same thing.

ETA: steelcomp, by your own admission you haven't been spouting any facts at all, just opinion. I can't help but feel that as childish as that last post was, Battleaxe has contributed more to this thread than you have. </div></div>I think there's a fair amount of fact in my opinions, and not a bunch of childish saracsm and insults just because I disagree with someone. I dind't design either rifle, I'm just pointing out some of the differences. Some people just take things a little too personal, and a little too far.
FYI...the diameter of the pin itself isn't the issue. It's the increase of bearing surface in the aluminum that's significant. I build racing engines...it's the same difference between a 500hp big block Chev with a two bolt main block and cast crank, vs a four bolt main block with a forged crank. Both will do the job, and make the smae power, but one will certainly take more abuse than the other and would be considered "better" by just about anyone I know. Would it be worth the added cost? Only the person spending the money can decide that, hopefully on sound information and not a bunch of emotional nonsense.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL...run out of facts? Did I insult you somehow? Are you what, like 12 yrs old? </div></div>

Not at all. I just know better than to engage in a battle of wits or intelligence with an unarmed man. I'll bet you actually believe that "billet" is a type of aluminum. </div></div>Huh? Aluminum sleeping quarters?

 

[Oodin]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I build racing engines...</div></div>

Good for you, I guess. I program computers and don't even own a car so your analogy was, for the most part, lost on me. If the "bearing surface in the aluminum" is what "is significant" why didn't they make it even larger? What is so critical about this area that warrants the extra attention and expense of a proprietary part when DPMS et al. didn't see the need for such changes and seems to be getting along just fine. Is there some issue these rifles (DPMS) are known for that is directly related to this design change or is it just a difference that you are choosing to say is better because it's bigger?

Also, and this might be completely unrelated, if this "bearing surface in the aluminum" is important, how do manufacturers who make .50 BMG uppers get away with using standard AR-15 receivers with standard AR-15 pins?

ETA: Was that sarcasm and childish behavior comment directed at me?

 

[steelcomp]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Oodin</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I build racing engines...</div></div>

Good for you, I guess. I program computers and don't even own a car so your analogy was, for the most part, lost on me. If the "bearing surface in the aluminum" is what "is significant" why didn't they make it even larger? What is so critical about this area that warrants the extra attention and expense of a proprietary part when DPMS et al. didn't see the need for such changes and seems to be getting along just fine. Is there some issue these rifles (DPMS) are known for that is directly related to this design change or is it just a difference that you are choosing to say is better because it's bigger?

Also, and this might be completely unrelated, if this "bearing surface in the aluminum" is important, how do manufacturers who make .50 BMG uppers get away with using standard AR-15 receivers with standard AR-15 pins?

ETA: Was that sarcasm and childish behavior comment directed at me? </div></div>Like I said..I didnl't design the rifles, I was just pointing out the differences. I only mentioned the pin/surface areaa in response to a comment about pins not breaking. It's not about the pin breaking, it's about more surface area on the AR10 receiver taking the increded load of the .308 over the .223, and not wearing the receiver from repeated full auto use. Interestingly enough, the current verson of the AR10, the AR10B was never prototyped. The first full prototype AR10B was the first rifle off the production line. The original Stoner AR10 was improved with lessons learned from the AR15 and designated the AR10A, and was only produced as a prototype. Most people don't know that Knights Mfg. developed the SR25 <span style="font-style: italic">before</span> the AR10B was made, and the AR10B was originally patterned on a SR25. The SR-25 had features of the AR-10, but with as many parts of the AR-15 as could be used. The AR-10B uses far fewer parts from the AR15-M-15/M-16 rifles than the SR-25 does.
The sarcasm comment was not directed at you.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think there's a fair amount of fact in my opinions, and not a bunch of childish saracsm and insults just because I disagree with someone. I dind't design either rifle, I'm just pointing out some of the differences. Some people just take things a little too personal, and a little too far.
FYI...the diameter of the pin itself isn't the issue. It's the increase of bearing surface in the aluminum that's significant. I build racing engines...it's the same difference between a 500hp big block Chev with a two bolt main block and cast crank, vs a four bolt main block with a forged crank. Both will do the job, and make the smae power, but one will certainly take more abuse than the other and would be considered "better" by just about anyone I know. Would it be worth the added cost? Only the person spending the money can decide that, hopefully on sound information and not a bunch of emotional nonsense. </div></div>

Not so much fact at all. You may be dialing it back a bit now but your initial posts sounded like an arfcom escapee who's sister was raped by a DPMS employee. I'm not sure what your agenda is but clearly you have some bone to pick with DPMS. The problem is that many of us own these weapons. That's NOT significant in the sense that we're somehow offended by the bashing, the frustration lies in that we've held and shot these weapons and know with 100% certaintly that you couldn't be farther off base, and you're here giving some unwitting soul advice on a firearm purchase. I personally don't believe you could have ever held one and still reached your conclusion. Which begs the question...why are you commenting at all?

In one breath you equate <span style="font-style: italic">cheap </span>with extruded aluminum, then in the next you build racing engines ignoring the fact that the block is usually cast (as cheap as it gets). You're right in one sense (although you likely don't know why) in that extrusion is a more cost effective manufacturing process (cheap and inferior in boy-racer ninja speak)...resulting in less material waste, less machining, and less finish work. That's pretty much about it. An extruded receiver done right is a precision item and pretty much overkill.

Then you move on to hinge pin size and bearing surface. Great concept but the hinge pins aren't intended to "bear" anything. In fact if we dig really deep we may just find that the Armalite is more expensive simply because their production methods are outdated and their expenses are higher. For all you know their prices may have more to do with the fact that their stuck in a really bad lease on their facility.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think there's a fair amount of fact in my opinions, and not a bunch of childish saracsm and insults just because I disagree with someone. I dind't design either rifle, I'm just pointing out some of the differences. Some people just take things a little too personal, and a little too far.
FYI...the diameter of the pin itself isn't the issue. It's the increase of bearing surface in the aluminum that's significant. I build racing engines...it's the same difference between a 500hp big block Chev with a two bolt main block and cast crank, vs a four bolt main block with a forged crank. Both will do the job, and make the smae power, but one will certainly take more abuse than the other and would be considered "better" by just about anyone I know. Would it be worth the added cost? Only the person spending the money can decide that, hopefully on sound information and not a bunch of emotional nonsense. </div></div>

Not so much fact at all. You may be dialing it back a bit now but your initial posts sounded like an arfcom escapee who's sister was raped by a DPMS employee. I'm not sure what your agenda is but clearly you have some bone to pick with DPMS. The problem is that many of us own these weapons. That's NOT significant in the sense that we're somehow offended by the bashing, the frustration lies in that we've held and shot these weapons and know with 100% certaintly that you couldn't be farther off base, and you're here giving some unwitting soul advice on a firearm purchase. I personally don't believe you could have ever held one and still reached your conclusion. Which begs the question...why are you commenting at all?

In one breath you equate <span style="font-style: italic">cheap </span>with extruded aluminum, then in the next you build racing engines ignoring the fact that the block is usually cast (as cheap as it gets). You're right in one sense (although you likely don't know why) in that extrusion is a more cost effective manufacturing process (cheap and inferior in boy-racer ninja speak)...resulting in less material waste, less machining, and less finish work. That's pretty much about it. An extruded receiver done right is a precision item and pretty much overkill.

Then you move on to hinge pin size and bearing surface. Great concept but the hinge pins aren't intended to "bear" anything. In fact if we dig really deep we may just find that the Armalite is more expensive simply because their production methods are outdated and their expenses are higher. For all you know their prices may have more to do with the fact that their stuck in a really bad lease on their facility. </div></div>Well FYI some of the engine blocks and heads I work with are CNC'd from forged aluminum billets or solid bars stock. Cranks and cams are from billets as well. I spend enough time around extremely high end machining and manufacturing to have a <span style="font-style: italic">fairly</span> good idea of what I'm talking about (far more than I'll say here) and I'm not running on emotions here, like you are. Hinge/TD pins aren't meant to bear anything? Now who doesn't know WTF they're talking about. It sounds to me like you're the one with the bone to pick against Armalite. I've shot several DPMS's, and built half a dozen AR10's, two of which I still have and love. I couldn't care less about the name...when I decided I wanted a .308 SA rifle I did the research, and with a strong background in manufacturing and machining, it was clear to me that the Armalite was a better rifle, even if only for a few basic reasons which I've pointed out here. I never said the DPMS is a <span style="font-style: italic">bad</span> rifle. They're both good rifles...I just think the Armalite is a better rifle. The DPMS is less expensive, and for a reason. If that makes it a better deal for you, that's cool.
I've made my point and I'm done arguing with your nonsense.

 

[BCP]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

FWIW, Dpms 308 takedown pins are the same as Armalite AR-10 ones, at least in diameter. I toyed with the idea of using an ARmalite oversize takedown pin but went with the JP tensioner instead.

Diesel, if you're still reading this thread and haven't bought a rifle yet, consider one of these:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=195867084

It's a bit more money but you get a much better barrel and fit & finish. Also, my buddy's 16" POF 308 has as much or more muzzle velocity than my 18" SASS upper with the same ammunition. So you'd have something that's a little more compact, a little bit lighter with the same or more punch.

If you don't want to spend that much, something like:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=195606912

Would make a good hog gun too.

 

[Hooper]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The DPMS SASS stands for Semi Automatic Sniper System and is a commercial rifle that they tagged "sniper system" because it sounds cool and sells rifles. </div></div>
False.

The DPMS SASS evolved from a prototype that lost out to KAC durng Army field trials. There's a bit more of a pedigree there than just being "tagged" as a Sniper System. It's been quite successful as a commercial spin-off and is in service with numerous LEO/SWAT agencies. It's more likely the tight little groups that sell the rifles. </div></div>The DPMS will always be an Armalite copy. The rifle available today is not the same rifle that was offered as the military version, as you stated...it's an evolution of the prototype, which was an Armalite wannabe/copy from the start. It's popularity is purely based on it's price because it's no more accurate than any of the others. I'm sure DPMS makes the LE agancies smoe sweet deals, too. Face it...when you build a cheap rifle, you can sell it for less. </div></div>

I guess then, that all AR rifles no matter the caliber are a copy of the Armalite since they introduced it from its begining. So Colt, DPMS, Bushy, etc, are all copy cats.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BCP</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Diesel, if you're still reading this thread and haven't bought a rifle yet, consider one of these:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=195867084

It's a bit more money but you get a much better barrel and fit & finish. Also, my buddy's 16" POF 308 has as much or more muzzle velocity than my 18" SASS upper with the same ammunition. So you'd have something that's a little more compact, a little bit lighter with the same or more punch.

If you don't want to spend that much, something like:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=195606912

Would make a good hog gun too.

</div></div>

This is about the best advice here. When you look at platforms like the DPMS and Armalite, you really are splitting hairs when deciding which way to go and there's not too much that differentiates them. You're essentially reduced to deciding over which ones have the best roll pins

The reality is when you spend a bit more than a just a little, you can get something more innovative with integrtated rail/upper, better barrels, etc such as POF, LMT, Larue just to name a few. With those platforms you can easily see why they cost more and the weight difference can be substantial.

If you're going to go with lower priced units that are virtually indistinguishable, you're better off saving as much as possible on the rifle (provided it performs), and putting that money into optics which arguably adds as much if not more performance to the package than the rifle does.

Money was really no object for me when I considered purely just the rifle, but I also wanted a USO so price of the rifle became an issue and the DPMS is likely the best bang for the buck out there. With the right optic/mount its a tack driver.

All of this becomes especially relevant to the guy here wanting to shoot hogs at 600yds...regardless of rifle choice you're not going to pull that off with a cheap optic unless you're very very good.

 

[pe5b]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

I agree. Like I said 10 "roll pin" posts ago I have had an Aramalite & a DPMS (not really much different to me)
And I now have a POF MRR 20" and love it!

By the way if there all copies, shouldn't the AR10 have the current style DPMS,KAC,POF,OBR,LMT style mags? Isn't that the original pattern mag?

 

[demonsmokr]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

My opinions come from reading many different horror stories about DPMS. Do a google search and you will find more problems associated with DPMS style rifles and Armalite's AR-10. Yes, DPMS will stand behind their product when it breaks on you, but its the fact that it will break very soon. Unless you use the aftermarket industry to upgrade your factory DPMS. You dont have to admit DPMS is cheaply made, how else can you make a 308AR under 1000$? The facts speak for themselves. No im not an expert, no I have not shot X number of DPMS and Armalites. I am going by what most everyone here does as well, word of mouth, forums, research, gun shops talking about customers rigs. Say what you want about my integrity, I own an Armalite. DPMS is about making money, and flooding the market, "standardizing" the industry to less efficient design. The only thing DPMS style rifles have over the Armalite is two things- aftermarket support, and the use of a crappy throw away magazine. But I dont know what Im talking about.

 

[DP425]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
FYI...the diameter of the pin itself isn't the issue. It's the increase of bearing surface in the aluminum that's significant. I build racing engines...it's the same difference between a 500hp big block Chev with a two bolt main block and cast crank, vs a four bolt main block with a forged crank. Both will do the job, and make the smae power, but one will certainly take more abuse than the other and would be considered "better" by just about anyone I know. Would it be worth the added cost? Only the person spending the money can decide that, hopefully on sound information and not a bunch of emotional nonsense. </div></div>

You were doing well until you strayed away from the bearing surface. A better example would be between a Large Journal crank in say a Ford 351/400 vs the small journal in a 351W- the benefit of which is increased bearing surface area (in addition to increased strength between two identical alloy's). The argument the way you stated it would be saying they use a higher quality of pin material, that being the only difference. The actual benefit to using larger diameter pins is in bearing surface area- assuming both materials are the same. Of course as you increase the hardness of both materials, you effectively do the same- decrease the amount/quickness of impact wear. Here-in is where the likely benefit of the Armalite pins being larger comes into play- a larger surface area in which to distribute the force. Both pins and receivers are obviously strong enough for the intended use.

 

[demonsmokr]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

DPMS=Ford Armalite=Chevy, Chrysler

Ford didnt take bail out money, because the majority of their product is made in Mexico.

GM and Chrysler both were bailed out, due to trying to keep American cars made in America.

DPMS uses the cheapest, quickest ways to get their rifles tot he market. Much like the Ford F150 and Mustang

Armalite takes the time, effort, and money necessary to make a quality product. Much like the Corvette and Dodge Ram, yeah they cost more, yeah they are better built, and yeah they perform better across the board.

Take it as being biased if you want, Im just a blunt person that says things with out the sugar coating most people have become accustomed to. Im from Texas, and if you dont people saying things the way they are, you could always move to a more community oriented country.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoatHead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">DPMS=Ford Armalite=Chevy, Chrysler

Ford didnt take bail out money, because the majority of their product is made in Mexico.

GM and Chrysler both were bailed out, due to trying to keep American cars made in America.

DPMS uses the cheapest, quickest ways to get their rifles tot he market. Much like the Ford F150 and Mustang

Armalite takes the time, effort, and money necessary to make a quality product. Much like the Corvette and Dodge Ram, yeah they cost more, yeah they are better built, and yeah they perform better across the board.

Take it as being biased if you want, Im just a blunt person that says things with out the sugar coating most people have become accustomed to. Im from Texas, and if you dont people saying things the way they are, you could always move to a more community oriented country. </div></div>

Union greed drove Chrysler and GM into a bailout...there is nothing noble about what they did to the taxpayer.

I own a Corvette ZO6. Sure, it runs like a scalded cat and will pull a 1G turn, but everything outside the chassis and drivetrain is cheap plastic crap that rattles like an old school bus. I do love that car though.

 

[DP425]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Lastly... DPMS uses 6061T6 aluminum as I recall... Armalite uses 7175T7 It is undoubtedly a superior material. That doesn't mean the DPMS won't get the job done. It comes down to how much you want to spend and what options you want. I can sit here and say the DPMS is a pile of junk and if you're going to buy a DI the only acceptable one to buy is a Larue... I can sit here and list all of the things that make it better. But in the long run, if you don't want to drop $3000, it is not the gun for you. If you can pick up a DPMS for $200-$300 less than an Armalite and it does everything you want, and you'll be happy with it... go for it. Anyone who deny's they are reliable and accurate shooter is a flat out liar.

As far as mag design goes- I've run Larue, Magpul and KAC mags- all without any problems at all. The magpul and KAC I've ran OVERSEAS. Bitch all you want about the reliability of DPMS mags- I know for a fact they have a few issues... but to discount the entire design is ignorant.

Also while we're on this topic of mags... Don't forget that the current "KAC" pattern mags are nearly identical to ORIGINAL AR10 mags. What AR10's run today is more than likely a result of the need to produce a rifle with a large supply of high-cap magazines already in circulation. At this time, 308 pattern AR's were not very popular and Armalite's previous versions hadn't faired that well. Given the new AR-10 was introduced in 1994, they certainly couldn't produce a bunch of new high-cap mags and there were a limited supply of 20rd mags in the US in anything but the M14/M1A style. So, you tell me... was it a decision out of reliability or legal/marketing necessity? There had never been a complaint on mag design with the original or KAC produced mags- only when DPMS started to produce them did you have issues. Drop the mag reliability argument- it's counter-productive. Until Magpul started producing mags, you could have argued cost of good reliable mags, but now that argument doesn't even have merit... unless you're talking 5rd mags.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

The is a Barret .338 Lapua lower side-by-side with a SASS lower. The Barret actually has a smaller pin. they make up for it merely by increasing the thickness of the pin bosses. The recoil from this Barret is easily double that of the SASS plus it has no buffer to absorb the shock.

This is the part of the lower that takes the brunt of the recoil forces...NOT the pins or pin bosses.

 

[steelcomp]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
FYI...the diameter of the pin itself isn't the issue. It's the increase of bearing surface in the aluminum that's significant. I build racing engines...it's the same difference between a 500hp big block Chev with a two bolt main block and cast crank, vs a four bolt main block with a forged crank. Both will do the job, and make the smae power, but one will certainly take more abuse than the other and would be considered "better" by just about anyone I know. Would it be worth the added cost? Only the person spending the money can decide that, hopefully on sound information and not a bunch of emotional nonsense. </div></div>

You were doing well until you strayed away from the bearing surface. A better example would be between a Large Journal crank in say a Ford 351/400 vs the small journal in a 351W- the benefit of which is increased bearing surface area (in addition to increased strength between two identical alloy's). The argument the way you stated it would be saying they use a higher quality of pin material, that being the only difference. The actual benefit to using larger diameter pins is in bearing surface area- assuming both materials are the same. Of course as you increase the hardness of both materials, you effectively do the same- decrease the amount/quickness of impact wear. Here-in is where the likely benefit of the Armalite pins being larger comes into play- a larger surface area in which to distribute the force. Both pins and receivers are obviously strong enough for the intended use. </div></div>You may have misread what I said...I siad it has nothing to do with the pin being larger, it has to do with more bearing surface <span style="font-weight: bold">in the aluminum...</span>
My very first sentence in the paragraph:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI...the diameter of the pin itself isn't the issue. It's the increase of bearing surface <span style="font-weight: bold">in the aluminum </span>that's significant.</div></div>. I was refering to the increase of aluminum load bearing surface in the recevers. The shear strength of the smaller pins is plenty. You have to remember...the first AR10 was full auto and designed for military use.
I should have started a new paragraph with the engine analogy..it had nothing to do with the pin, just relating "good enough" (DPMS) with "better" (Armalite).

 

[steelcomp]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The is a Barret .338 Lapua lower side-by-side with a SASS lower. The Barret actually has a smaller pin. they make up for it merely by increasing the thickness of the pin bosses. The recoil from this Barret is easily double that of the SASS plus it has no buffer to absorb the shock.

This is the part of the lower that takes the brunt of the recoil forces...NOT the pins or pin bosses.

</div></div>First, I didn't realize that DPMS had upgraded their pins to the AR10 size...Hmmm...I wonder why they did that? Second, how many uppers and lowers have you seen with gaps between the back of the upper and lower where you're claiming all the load is taken? If there's a gap there, even a small one, where, then, do you think the load is distributed? If you don't think there's any load on the pins during the fire cycle, you really don't have much of a grip on the mechanics of the system. It looks as if the Barret is clearly designed to take a load at the back of the receiver, so the pins are probably secondary, but I guarantee they still see a good load.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: steelcomp</div><div class="ubbcode-body">First, I didn't realize that DPMS had upgraded their pins to the AR10 size...I wonder why they did that. Second, how many uppers and lowers have you seen with gaps between the back of the upper and lower where you're claiming all the load is taken? If there's a gap there, even as small one, where, then, do you think the load is distributed? If you don't think there's any load on the pins during the fire cycle, you really don't have much of a grip on the mechanics of the system. It looks as if the Barret is clearly designed to take a load at the back of the receiver, so the pins are secondary, but I guarantee they still see a good load. </div></div>

I don't recall saying that there isn't a load on the pins. I'm merely illustrating that the pins and bosses don't do all the work. Yes, there is a gap at the anvil. Its necessary to allow separation of the upper from the lower and to allow for heat expansion. The gap on my SASS is .010. Even if it could move it couldn't move any farther than .010

Problem is that this thread is about the SASS and you're lumping it in with everything else DPMS makes. Yet you'll separate Chevy from Corvette. Sure I'd agree that DPMS makes some cheap stuff but the SASS is quite stout and well made. It's as tight a firearm as anything I've seen. Sure there are a few features I'd have liked to see them add but the parts that make the little holes and hold everything together are spot on.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Try this trick...stand your weapon on its stock on the floor and push down on the barrel. You will completely close the gap between between the rear of the upper, and the anvil on the lower merely by the slight play in the pins. Pretty telling I'd say.

 

[DIESEL758]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Well I really did not mean for this question to get out of hand I am on a budget of around 3000 for gun and optics maybe a little more if need be, or find a nice used one. I know there are better guns but these are the only two I might be able to afford, trust me I have looked at just about every rifle out there. I just needed a little advice on which one of the two guns would be a better gun in the long run for want I want to use it for. Everybody has there opinion and that is great, I am new to this so any advice is great just don't want to wast money. I all ready got my ass chewed out for asking about the counter sniper scope. Anyways thanks for all the help guys.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DIESEL758</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I really did not mean for this question to get out of hand </div></div>We really have nothing better to do than to argue about guns. Even if you lose it beats arguing with your wife over who takes out the trash

 

[steelcomp]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DIESEL758</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I really did not mean for this question to get out of hand </div></div>We really have nothing better to do than to argue about guns. Even if you lose it beats arguing with your wife over who takes out the trash

</div></div>Well we can agree on that.

 

[cruzie27]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DIESEL758</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I really did not mean for this question to get out of hand I am on a budget of around 3000 for gun and optics maybe a little more if need be, or find a nice used one. I know there are better guns but these are the only two I might be able to afford, trust me I have looked at just about every rifle out there. I just needed a little advice on which one of the two guns would be a better gun in the long run for want I want to use it for. Everybody has there opinion and that is great, I am new to this so any advice is great just don't want to wast money. I all ready got my ass chewed out for asking about the counter sniper scope. Anyways thanks for all the help guys. </div></div>


sorry brother,.. can you tell we are all a little attached to our chosen rifles?

for that price range with a optic,. i say buy a AR-10T BNF and a Leupold Mk4 4-14x50mm TMR,. add other stuff as you can if you want it looking like a SASS.

 

[demonsmokr]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Im just being an ass guys. I was trying to be the blatant asshole that chimes in to disrespect one of the 2 choices. I know both guns are made well, but its true DPMS using cheaper materials and manuf. process to get their guns to market quicker and keep all of use satisfied. I honestly just did not like the way the DPMS felt compared to the Armalite. This is also with A4 style models, no bells or whistles.

DPMS will stand behind their products though. And you have alot of options to upgrading the DPMS compared to the Armalite.

And about Ford Chevy and Dodge, its greed that screwed them all over. I believe the auto industry died in 2000. I think they should have been left to die and let some other company come up. Thats the true capitalist way. Sure people would be out of jobs, but most of them are union pricks who need to be brought down a few levels.

 

[frankythefly]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

My friend and I shot his Armalite SuperSASS today first time shooting it,
Shot old 168 grn lakecity match.

5 shot group at 100 yds was better than I have seen most bolt guns looked like one ragged hole. 1/4 moa or better.

I am a fan of the LWRC those just plain shoot good, but this Armalite I shot today was just as good and is changing my opinion about why these rifles cost as much as they do.

If you want the best out of the box semiauto for the money get the Armalite SuperSASS if you have the money get the LWRC. DPMS is ok but you will never get the accuracy of the Armalite.

 

[Snakum]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Poor OP. Dontcha love it when people treat a <span style="font-style: italic">tool </span>as if it were a religion and get all indignant about differing opinions?

Life's too short. Select a couple in your price range, flip a coin, then shoot the hell out of it.

 

[demonsmokr]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Hey tools are important. Would you rely on a cheaply made jack stand to keep your truck up? Or poorly insulated pliers that get you electrocuted when wiring up a panel? You want to get a good tool, whether its a gun, channel locks, kleins, or whatever. You want to get the best you can afford. DPMS is ok. Nothing more. Armalite is great. LWRC 308s are pretty good. But IMO Armalite is the best, standard models come with the good stuff standard, chome lined barrel, M4 feed ramps, true 20rd mags that work. The best bet for the SASS, is to get a complete upper. Then pick out your triggers and stock and your good to go. And save a few hundred bucks as well.

 

[WldWldWest]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: frankythefly</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My friend and I shot his Armalite SuperSASS today first time shooting it,
Shot old 168 grn lakecity match.

5 shot group at 100 yds was better than I have seen most bolt guns looked like one ragged hole. 1/4 moa or better.

I am a fan of the LWRC those just plain shoot good, but this Armalite I shot today was just as good and is changing my opinion about why these rifles cost as much as they do.

If you want the best out of the box semiauto for the money get the Armalite SuperSASS if you have the money get the LWRC. DPMS is ok but you will never get the accuracy of the Armalite. </div></div>

I refuse to get sucked into the whole which one is better conflict but I for one had both, I still have the DPMS SASS which would outshoot MY Armalite hands down. So to make a comment like the last sentence is simply untrue! If ya want pic's how my DPMS shoot's email me and I'll send em to ya as I dont want to break the rules on here for group posting.

Which one to buy....Ya cant go wrong either way!

My Opinoin!

Doug

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DougW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I refuse to get sucked into the whole which one is better conflict...</div></div>

Even beyond this...the notion that buying brand A over brand B will somehow make you a super sniper is ridiculous to begin with. Its almost as crazy as the notion that buying a set of forged Nike irons will get you onto the PGA tour. I'm always at the range and I look at peoples targets. Very few can get top performance out of autos. Even a high dollar bolt gun is no guarantee that YOU can shoot well with it. Money won't buy consistency or accuracy.

 

[demonsmokr]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Well said BattleAxe.

 

[demonsmokr]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Hey DougW, is your Armalite a SASS as well?

 

[WldWldWest]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GoatHead</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey DougW, is your Armalite a SASS as well? </div></div>

Sorry, It was an SASS as well. And it was a Shooter too but 3/4 to an inch was the average with handload's I never ran any factory ammo through either one of em but I just liked to DPMS better so I traded the Armilite for a SOCOMII.

 

[skinney_7]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

i have an armalite super sass, and love it, sub moa with handloads, i also have a dpms "mini" sass, not the 308, both guns are great, but IMHO i prefer the armalite.

 

[btrapr]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

DMPS is a great choice for all the reasons listed above...

Here is the Gunboker link to current LR308 rifles!
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SearchResults.aspx

I even saw one 24" Krieger barreled 260 Rem....has a CAR stockl though...
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=196093527

My personal favorite from what is currently listed
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=196380563

One of my favorite smiths is RWSgunsmithing Check out what he has listed right now!
308 Lawton in a JR chassis
408 Cheytac
260 carbon
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SellerAuctions.aspx?User=589700

Good luck

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

I always love these debates. If you're just starting out, they are food for thought. In my case, owning an AR-10T, I'll op for a SASS upper to go with the existing Armalite lower. From Armalite, the order-ship time may take so long that I can't see well enough to appreciate what the stick is capable of.

Keep it coming guys, but remember, some newbie will be totally confused.

 

[vwpilot]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

I think the thing that is being missed here is that both companies make mechanical items and both will vary from piece to piece. Both will make mistakes and have bad units out there on the market.

Take any random DPMS and any random AR10 and you will probably at some time have a DPMS be more accurate and from another sampling have the AR10. You may have a DPMS with an issue and from another sampling the AR10 will have an issue.

So you may likely get a good or poor version of either rifle at any particular time.

However, if you really search the internet and some of the facts out there, it seems that there are more issues with DPMS rifles than with Armalites. Search this forum and others and you'll see more handfuls of DPMS rifles not shooting as well as they should than AR10s. At least that has been my experience of following these forums for a couple years.

The other facts that have been attempted to be argued here about quality, may be true, but also may mean nothing.

Like was said, Armalite does use forged receivers out of better material. That is true. Does it make a difference? Hard to say. There are other CNC'd and forged receivers out there that cost almost twice the price of the Armalite pieces. Are they better and cost more to produce? Yes. Will it make a difference? Probably not. Do people spend more money on them anyway because they believe that over the course of a rifle lasting 20, 30 40 years or more? Yes they do.

It comes down to what you want. Do you want to spend more money on parts that may last longer and take more abuse? Only you can answer that.

People argue all the time in the AR15 world about how guns such as Colt and LMT and some others are "better" because they meet "mil spec" and every single bolt or barrel is MPI tested instead of just batches like on some other brands such as RRA or Armalite.

People pay more for those features because they think its important. Others pay less because they do not. Do both rifles go out and fire away equally well? They certainly do. Will an RRA possibly have an issue somewhere down the line due to its specific bolt not being tested and there being a hidden flaw? Maybe. But who knows. If you feel you NEED to know for sure you're using the best, you spend the money.

Same here. If you feel that better materials or manufacturing makes a difference for you to be sure, or you feel that you do not want to take a chance that you are one of those people with an issue with accuracy, then maybe you pay more for an AR10 or an OBR or whatever.

If you dont care about those things, save some money and I'm sure you'll be happy. There are plenty of people that are happy with both brands and plenty that are not happy with one or the other.

Look at the facts about how each are built. Look at how many people are reporting issues with each model and decide what is important for you. Both will work.

Last thing is do you really think you need the SASS version? Do you really want a rail? Possibly something like an AR10T would more than fit your bill and you would not be spending issues on items you do not need like an adjustable gas block and rail system.

Good luck with your decision.

BTW, I own a basic flat top AR10, under $1800 for rifle and scope and it will shoot MOA if I do my part. Not as good as some custom GAP with a $1000 scope, but does the job for what I need it to do. 6" at 600 yards should be more than enough for a hog right? You probably do not need a $3000 SASS rifle.

 

[NEW SHOOTER]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Talk about info over load. lol

 

[TheGoodDoctor]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

I have always liked the fit and finish of the Armalite better personally. If you get the chance to lay them down side by side you will see what I mean. The DPMS is a good gun that shoots well I prefer the Armalite. BTW if you get a Noveske upper you will never look back.

 

[gnfiter3]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

I looked into the Noveske upper for my 10T. Lots of great press, but I still have a problem spending as much for the upper as I did for the whole stick. Speaks to how long I have owned the 10T, and too what vwpilot was referring too. What's it worth to me.

 

[EricCartmann]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

I too am partial to Armalite, and not because they work better, I am sure a DPMS will treat me good just as well as my Armalites have.

I just think the Armalite looks better. Also I love the Armalite mags (I don't consider these mags disposable).

At the end of the day I chose the Armalite because I look much cooler with it than the DPMS.

 

[Patriot Prepper]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

vwpilot, I like your post. I am planning on purchasing a .308 in an AR platform. The DPMS is priced nicely and is popular. But I have a RRA AR and like it. I have heard they were having issues with the LAR 8 but that it has been resolved. I like the .308 Rock River with 20" barrel because it has a match trigger, and posts 1 minute of angle. The gun will be used to bridge the gap between the AR and my bolt .308 - I do not need a SASS. It would be a 100 to 300 yard gun. But I do like a degree of accuracy. What are your thoughts?

 

[vwpilot]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

Personally, I like the AR10, I got a basic one so that I could eventually build my own SASS down the line and it shoots right about MOA with good ammo.

I went Armalite because of what I said before, I read more issues with the DPMS models than I did with the AR10 so decided it was worth the few extra bucks to lessen the chance of issues.

If I were you, I'd strongly look at the AR10T, it gives you a full floated handguard, match two-stage trigger, and a heavier barrel, also guaranteeing better accuracy. It costs over $1000 less than the SASS, but will give you similar performance without the rail and adjustable gas block and other things you probably do not need.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.aspx?it...a0-49488ec48776

But again, there are a lot of good options out there and some options may be even less. But this would be a good rifle for you and I'm sure you'd be happy.

Good luck.

 

[CavScoutSniper]

Re: DPMS LRT SASS vs ARMALITE SUPER SASS

ARMALITE makes thier own magazines for the AR-10 and they charge $25.00 apiece for them or you can get 'em at a discount in a 5 pack. They started this back in 2010. My AR-10A4-SPR shoots 1 hole, 5 shot groups with 42 grs of RE-15 under an SMK 175gr and, under 1MOA with factory ammo. Harris Bipod and SS10X42 are all I have added to it since I bought it for $789.00 + a Savage Model 99E from Buds online in 2009 to replace one some lowlife stole from me. You can't go wrong with the Original! Armalite.