DPMS real accuracy ?

#51
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

The single biggest reason for shooting badly with a "tricked-out" AR10 is called "lock-time. It takes almost twice as long for an AR10 to ignite the round as compared to a bolt action. Yes - the AR10 shoots almost instantly, but if you flinch, or have other nasty habits, they will be magnified with an AR10 style rifle. Have a friend load your rifle. However, only your friend will know if a live round has been chambered. See how your body reacts when you pull the trigger and no "boom".
 
#52
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TCW</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The single biggest reason for shooting badly with a "tricked-out" AR10 is called "lock-time. It takes almost twice as long for an AR10 to ignite the round as compared to a bolt action. Yes - the AR10 shoots almost instantly, but if you flinch, or have other nasty habits, they will be magnified with an AR10 style rifle. Have a friend load your rifle.</div></div>
All righty--just calculate the difference in lock time between a bolt gun and AR in thousandths of a second, or ten-thousandths, and then calculate the time between hammer/striker release and bullet exiting the muzzle, and see whether the bullet is long gone before the shooter can react in any way. Also, why is it different for a "tricked-out AR-10" as opposed to a stock one?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">However, only your friend will know if a live round has been chambered. See how your body reacts when you pull the trigger and no "boom". </div></div>
This is flinch, a different problem altogether, and while ball-and-dummy drills are excellent therapy, it has nothing to do with lock time. It has everything to do with where the rifle is pointing when the shot breaks.
 
#53
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

My experience with the brand suggests everything they make will shoot in the direction pointed, unless broken; and, on occasion, I've realized close to zero dispersion, as many as 6 consecutive rounds at 100 from sling supported prone and irons (DPMS DCM).
 
#54
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

I agree totally. I know DPMS stands for "didn't pass military specifications" but I did very well with my DPMS DCM, once getting 181-6x at 600 without much practice, and my LR-308 holds at least 1.5MOA with match ammo and a bargain basement Bushnell 3200. I hit a trotting feral dog yesterday from offhand at 50 or so and it went right where the crosshair said it would. That's all I can ask, although it took two shots since the first time the crosshair was not in the right place due to shooter error.
 
#56
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And what are the specs on this rifle? Maker? </div></div>

The specs are as follows.

DPMS: lower, upper, BCG, 16" HBL
JP Enterprises: trigger, 12.0 handguard, lo pro adjust gas block
Badger Ord: 22 MOA base, charging handle latch
IOR: 3-18x42mm and 35mm low rings
CAVALRY MANUFACTURING: A1 stock
Brownells: heavy buffer spring
Tango down BG 16 grip

I built this rifle with my partner http://www.bbshooting.com/Home_Page.html

John
 
#58
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

Calculations? Moi? it's <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> theory.
smile.gif


But I did look up some lock times, and supposedly a stock AR FCS is about .016s, a Rem 700 .004s, and the Geissele, which I put in my LR-308, .0044 according to the factory. Not sure what any human can deliberately do in .012s difference between G and stock, less than half the blink of an eye, or .0004s difference between M700 and G.

Great triggers are necessary to great marksmanship, but lock time seems not to be part of greatness. I doubt lock time has been a marksmanship factor at least since the switch from flintlock to percussion, and maybe not since matchlock to wheellock. Just today the sniper episode of Weaponology claimed that the inventor of the percussion cap kept missing birds because his fowling piece's flint spark caught their eye just in time for them to dodge all that birdshot. A likely story. I think he just missed, although I am glad for percussion caps.
 
#59
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

Lock time?...interesting. I think a crisp trigger and good barrel matter. The recoil and bolt cycling in a semi-auto cause recoil management to a bigger factor than a bolt action. In other words the shooter and his technique matter the most.
 
#60
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fairdebtlawyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Calculations? Moi? it's <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> theory.
smile.gif


But I did look up some lock times, and supposedly a stock AR FCS is about .016s, a Rem 700 .004s, and the Geissele, which I put in my LR-308, .0044 according to the factory. Not sure what any human can deliberately do in .012s difference between G and stock, less than half the blink of an eye, or .0004s difference between M700 and G.

Great triggers are necessary to great marksmanship, but lock time seems not to be part of greatness. I doubt lock time has been a marksmanship factor at least since the switch from flintlock to percussion, and maybe not since matchlock to wheellock. Just today the sniper episode of Weaponology claimed that the inventor of the percussion cap kept missing birds because his fowling piece's flint spark caught their eye just in time for them to dodge all that birdshot. A likely story. I think he just missed, although I am glad for percussion caps.</div></div>

Lock-time is an aid to follow-through. You may not understand the effect until you start evaluating bullet placement on the SR target shot from the standing position using the GA trigger, then, comparing results to targets shot using something like the Jewell trigger, you'll appreciate the greatness or usefulness of the GA trigger's lock-time.

For me, even in 600 yard slow prone, the GA trigger's incredible lock-time supports average scores in the 197.5 arena, which is fractionally higher than when I was using the Jewell.

Yet, getting back to the heart of this thread, although float tubes, match triggers, and barrels that stay straight may support good shooting they are not substitutes for marksmanship. There is no substitute for the development of picture and motor memory skills with iron sights.

Without discipline, however, to pursue basic marksmanship with proper training, the freshman shooter may be lured instead by the promise of scopes, bipods and other supports, perceiving, that with such devices, marksmanship will be assured; but, that mindset will undermine such a novice shooter, actually assuring that this shooter will not become much more than a mediocre shooter. Thing is, with the scope and bipod helping this shooter get good results at SR, the shooter will believe he's mastered it all. He does not yet know the scope and bipod have deceived him. Shooting at MR or LR of course will reveal that this shooter knows nothing about marksmanship, that's to say, he knows nothing about what's really important to good shooting, but by then the shooter is fixated on improvement of equipment. He is no longer interested in marksmanship. The GUN has become the thing for this shooter. It is from shooters like these that we get questions like "DPMS real accuracy?". If these folks would submit to some basic marksmanship training they would not ask such absurd questions. Instead they'd ask about how to perfect their position, sight alignment, or trigger control.
 
#61
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fairdebtlawyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Calculations? Moi? it's <span style="font-style: italic">your</span> theory.
smile.gif


But I did look up some lock times, and supposedly a stock AR FCS is about .016s, a Rem 700 .004s, and the Geissele, which I put in my LR-308, .0044 according to the factory. Not sure what any human can deliberately do in .012s difference between G and stock, less than half the blink of an eye, or .0004s difference between M700 and G.

Great triggers are necessary to great marksmanship, but lock time seems not to be part of greatness. I doubt lock time has been a marksmanship factor at least since the switch from flintlock to percussion, and maybe not since matchlock to wheellock. Just today the sniper episode of Weaponology claimed that the inventor of the percussion cap kept missing birds because his fowling piece's flint spark caught their eye just in time for them to dodge all that birdshot. A likely story. I think he just missed, although I am glad for percussion caps.</div></div>

Lock-time is an aid to follow-through. You may not understand the effect until you start evaluating bullet placement on the SR target shot from the standing position using the GA trigger, then, comparing results to targets shot using something like the Jewell trigger, you'll appreciate the greatness or usefulness of the GA trigger's lock-time.

For me, even in 600 yard slow prone, the GA trigger's incredible lock-time supports average scores in the 197.5 arena, which is fractionally higher than when I was using the Jewell.

Yet, getting back to the heart of this thread, although float tubes, match triggers, and barrels that stay straight may support good shooting they are not substitutes for marksmanship. There is no substitute for the development of picture and motor memory skills with iron sights.

Without discipline, however, to pursue basic marksmanship with proper training, the freshman shooter may be lured instead by the promise of scopes, bipods and other supports, perceiving, that with such devices, marksmanship will be assured; but, that mindset will undermine such a novice shooter, actually assuring that this shooter will not become much more than a mediocre shooter. Thing is, with the scope and bipod helping this shooter get good results at SR, the shooter will believe he's mastered it all. He does not yet know the scope and bipod have deceived him. Shooting at MR or LR of course will reveal that this shooter knows nothing about marksmanship, that's to say, he knows nothing about what's really important to good shooting, but by then the shooter is fixated on improvement of equipment. He is no longer interested in marksmanship. The GUN has become the thing for this shooter. It is from shooters like these that we get questions like "DPMS real accuracy?". If these folks would submit to some basic marksmanship training they would not ask such absurd questions. Instead they'd ask about how to perfect their position, sight alignment, or trigger control. </div></div>

I see your point because the driver obviously can make all the difference. However, it's wrong to say this thread is absurd. The best shooter in the world with mastery of all the fundamentals cannot turn an average 3 MOA gun into a 1/2 MOA gun. So it is a valid question to ask what a certain RIFLE'S accuracy potential is, so that aspiring shooters can know what they are capable of once they have become more proficient. In other words, it's legitimate to wonder weather a DPMS AR-10 is closer in performance to a precision bolt gun,or a FN FAL battle rifle.
 
#62
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

And 5min using the search function would have answered that. Its either a defective rifle, or its the operator as the vast majority of owners have had great success w the LR308 and the SASS. The real difference is that the fundamentals of firing that weapons system are different from that of a bolt gun and if the operator is not aware of that fact he will not acheive any measure of the fullest potential of that system.
 
#63
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoveSPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And 5min using the search function would have answered that. Its either a defective rifle, or its the operator as the vast majority of owners have had great success w the LR308 and the SASS. The real difference is that the fundamentals of firing that weapons system are different from that of a bolt gun and if the operator is not aware of that fact he will not acheive any measure of the fullest potential of that system. </div></div>

I have used the search function to look at DPMS because I am considering one currently.This thread had some info that I hadn't seen in my search. I don't disagree with what you are saying about the shooter, but just because old hands here on the hide have "been there, done that" doesn't mean some people aren't still interested. There is reason enough for this thread because of the fact that people new to the Semi-Auto Precision idea could easily become convinced that if they don't buy an LMT or a Noveske or GAP that they will have no chance of having a good shooting stick. As nice as those rifles are, it seems that DPMS in certain configurations can come close in at least accuracy, if not looks or "cool" factor(for 1k less at least). Of course, if you assume it will shoot like your favorite bolt gun without experience, it doesn't matter if you spent 1k or 3k on your semi, you will probably be dissapointed.
 
#64
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Lock-time is an aid to follow-through. You may not understand the effect until you start evaluating bullet placement on the SR target shot from the standing position using the GA trigger, then, comparing results to targets shot using something like the Jewell trigger, you'll appreciate the greatness or usefulness of the GA trigger's lock-time.

For me, even in 600 yard slow prone, the GA trigger's incredible lock-time supports average scores in the 197.5 arena, which is fractionally higher than when I was using the Jewell. </div></div>
Glad to hear from somebody who has proven shooting ability and results. All I did was make Sharpshooter and haven't shot a match in years.

Here's how I see it:

Lock time happens before the bullet leaves the case neck. Followthrough happens after the bullet leaves the case neck. I don't see how one could possibly have anything to do with the other.

Speaking of followthrough, and to do the calculations I was trying to throw back on somebody else, a match bullet is going oh say 2800fps at the muzzle, so its average speed while in the barrel is 1400fps. If the barrel is 1.667 feet long, the bullet spends only 0.0011s in the barrel. Adding that to even 0.018 stock AR lock time gives at most 0.02s. Human reaction time being 0.2s, the bullet is long gone before the rifleman can possibly know the hammer has started to fall. I don't see how knocking off 0.01s elapsed time can make any difference to where the bullet goes.

I suspect I am wrong somewhere, but where?
 
#65
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

Follow-through is simply maintaining aim until recoil has subsided. It's important since relaxation before the bullet has cleared the bore will result in not hitting where aimed. Follow-through relates to lock-time since follow-through does not as you think begin when the bullet begins to move; but instead, is part of a mental mangement program which begins before the rifle is even shouldered. For me, this process is essentially an awareness and execution of what's important to good shooting in five steps: shoulder the rifle without consideration of target (cognisant of the five factors of a steady position), adjust NPA, focus on sight, smooth trigger control, and follow-through.

With focus on the sight and follow-through the shooter can call his shot, that's to say, the shooter will understand where the barrel was pointed as the bullet cleared the barrel. With this skill, the shooter can properly analyze the call/strike corollary to correctly determine the source/s of shooter error leading to bullet misplacement.

For the best results a shooter must understand that even minuscule inconsistency in any aspect of the shooter's relationship between the gun and ground shot to shot before the bullet has cleared the bore will result in angular error, which increases with distance. I alluded to this in my previous post.

One more thing, the brain can indeed sense completion of trigger pull; and, if the shooter associates this with job completion, relaxation will come about before the bullet has begun to move, thus producing a bad shot. A faster lock-time serves to support shooter synchronization to the firing task. The bottom line is that a faster lock time minimizes the effect of something less than ideal follow-through.

Interestingly, I think the AR platform supports better shooting than the typically stocked bolt action rifle. AR style rifles produce recoil which is more linear than angular, and, seems to me, is therefore more forgiving of some inconsistency in the shooter's position. HP and LR shooters realize this and have modified their bolt guns to mimic the Tubb 2000, essentially a bolt action AR.
 
#67
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boyette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I shot a 4" group at 700yds today.

With this rifle:

DSCN0252.jpg


John </div></div>
What the heck? Are you left handed?
 
#68
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

im new and not really sure how to put pictures on here yet but my DPMS LR308 will get 1 1/2" 5 shot group at 300 yards. I love it i did however have some problems with extracting (bad extractor) it was replaced and worked like a champ. they have awesome customer service.
 
#70
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

.4 moa here, with a 24" LR308. This gun was my introduction to LR, and I experienced some of the same doubts you are having. It definitely takes a while to get your act together when driving these things, but rest assured, the gun will shoot once you figure it out. When I switch back to a bolt gun now, it seems so simple.
 
#71
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: verdugo60</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoveSPR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And 5min using the search function would have answered that. Its either a defective rifle, or its the operator as the vast majority of owners have had great success w the LR308 and the SASS. The real difference is that the fundamentals of firing that weapons system are different from that of a bolt gun and if the operator is not aware of that fact he will not acheive any measure of the fullest potential of that system. </div></div>

I have used the search function to look at DPMS because I am considering one currently.This thread had some info that I hadn't seen in my search. I don't disagree with what you are saying about the shooter, but just because old hands here on the hide have "been there, done that" doesn't mean some people aren't still interested. There is reason enough for this thread because of the fact that people new to the Semi-Auto Precision idea could easily become convinced that if they don't buy an LMT or a Noveske or GAP that they will have no chance of having a good shooting stick. As nice as those rifles are, it seems that DPMS in certain configurations can come close in at least accuracy, if not looks or "cool" factor(for 1k less at least). Of course, if you assume it will shoot like your favorite bolt gun without experience, it doesn't matter if you spent 1k or 3k on your semi, you will probably be dissapointed. </div></div>

Don't believe everything you hear about DPMS. Especially the comment, Didn't Pass Military Specs.
eek.gif
I own an LMT MWS Armalite AR10A4 and a DPMS SASS. Of the 3 the DPMS SASS is my favorite. It has by far the best standard trigger (JP) and is just as accurate as the LMT MWS (whose accuracy sucked until I had to re-torque the barrel) and more accurate than the AR10A4. My shooting buddy shoots a DPMS LR 308 and shoots groups well under an inch all day long. He did put a JP trigger in. The stock trigger left a lot to be desired.
 
#72
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

Mine is a 24 SS fluted bbl, I bought it new in 06 and installed a Burris 4.5-14x42? FF II scope, it shoots really good with 168 gr smk with benchmark, Remington 91/2 primers and Winchester brass, it shoots around 1/2" at 100 yds, I have several 5 rd groups that were shot during load development with Sierra 168 & 175 smk that are well below 1/2", I put the rifle in the safe for a few years and recently decided to do some upgrades and put it to work again, I installed a PRS stock, Jewell trigger, viper PST 4-16x50 ffp MOA scope and tried the load I used to shoot in it and I still don't know why but I haven't been able to match the small groups ( .3" ) I used to do with it with factory trigger, stock and Burris scope, I am still pleased with the accuracy ( 1/2-1" ) but I don't understand why ? I guess I need to go back to fundamentals and do some studying.
 
#73
Re: DPMS real accuracy ?

I have an ap4. New it shot 1/2 moa with fed GMM.I have recently had it rebarrelled with a Green mountain mini gun barrel @ 18 in.It is shooting the same now.I rebarreled it because of round count and wanted a rifle length gas system.With a carbine gas system in .308 its rough on brass.
 
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