Gunsmithing Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

microsuck

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 30, 2007
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Richardson, TX
So I was looking at a few rifles that have ported barrels like the MP5SD, the VSS Vintorez and some integrally suppressed 10/22's and I noticed they all have the ports drilled in the groove. I presume for accuracy purposes. So, my question is, How do you indicate the groove so you can drill into it from the outside and not the land?
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Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

Sounds like a job for CNC only, unless you have mega patience on a manual and do quite a bit of math ahead of time also.

Im sure Chad Dixon will chime in here on how he would do it.
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

On one that I saw, they marked the grooves on one end, then wrapped a string around the outside to correspond with the twist rate of the barrel (lining up with the groove at both ends), and used that as a guide to draw a spiral line around the outside, and then drilled on that line to hit the grooves.

That said, I also heard that it did not make a spits worth of difference, and so long as you chamfer the edge of the holes where they come through inside the barrel, you will not have to worry about shaving the jacket of the bullet on the way by.

Onyx
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

This is pretty easy on the surface, but requires a little faith in math and your skills to execute.

First: Twist rate
Second Land grooves

Say its a 9 twist and has 4 grooves

360/4='s a groove every 90*.

If your twist rate is 1 rotation per 9" of travel then your rotating 40* per inch. We'll call 12 o clock "zero degrees".

If it were me doing this:

I'd make a lead lap and shove it down the bore till a portion was sticking out the crown. Then I'd use an centering microscope to find the root of the groove.

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Since this kind of job would almost certainly be done with a 4th axis on a CNC although a dividing head could easily get the job done too (if time is of no importance to you)

You center your A axis so your spindle is directly overhead the lead slug. You datum off the muzzle. Now focus in on the groove feature. Rotate one direction till you catch the edge. Zero out in A. Rotate the opposite till you cath the other edge. Note the degrees of rotation, divide by two, and you now have the center position.

From here you just start rotating the proper "pitch" based on your X location change. Say it was 2.5" from the muzzle. To keep it timed with the groove you'd rotate 100 degrees.

Drill your first batch of holes, then return to zero. Incrementally rotate 90* for the next groove and repeat for the remaining 2 grooves.

For a six groove just divide 360/6 to get your index, so and so forth.

Note that the more grooves you have the small the drill you'd have to use to stay out of the lands.

To do this "really right" you should angle your drill by around 2.5 degrees to mitigate the "cheese grater effect" the interruption will have in the bore. This complicates things a little as your setup just got a whole lot more kinky.

Can still be done though.

My guess is that anyone doing this in any sort of quantity has mandrels made up that will fixture inside the muzzle a bit. This would greatly simplify things in a production status.

Hope this helped.

C.


PS:

In all my years of building NM AR's and whatnot I never paid attention to hole indexing. TILL a conversation with a very talented barrel maker/AR builder took place.

In all his years of building them he never paid attention either. Then when guns started coming back for new barrels he got curious and started looking. When he got "lucky" and nailed the groove he noticed these were the guns that shot exceptionally well.

So he/I do all of them that way now. Keep in mind the 2.5* relief on the hole is another critical aspect.

If I'm a bullet traveling down the bore and a small sliver of my jacket is peeled off it changes my rotational center of gravity. It has to.

If I'm a 80 grain bullet in a 8 twist barrel traveling at 2800fps I'm rotating at 252,000RPM. That's ALOT of RPM's.

Just using the common sense were born with try to envision the centrifugal force at work here. To grossly/poorly offer an anology, go tape some fishing weights on a football and try to throw a nice pass. It jumpropes right?

Same thing here.

Gnite.
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

Drilling holes in the grooves is not that difficult.A tool is made like a two tinned fork,one tine has a spring loaded Vlier pin(a miniature ball spring)and the other tine has a drill guide.The two are drilled on the same axis so they align.A handle is made inline with the first tine.The use is simple adjust the pin for bore size insert in barrel it will track the groove you have selected transfer punch the hole location through the drill guide remove tool and drill.A stop collar can be added to drill holes around the circumference on the same plane.A center cutting milling cutter will leave a cleaner hole than a drill bit.
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shootist2004</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wont even ask how you chamfer the hole from the inside.
(prolly involves trained ants or something like that) </div></div>
I like the idea of ants I guess they will work for bread crumbs.A good cutter will leave almost no burr and a lead lap can remove whats left, but for a champfer Mr.Dixon is +1 on that idea.
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

I guess if you had access to one, you could use a plunge EDM and have no burr at all. If you have access to a CNC setup the dovetail cutter, as Mr. Dixon described, would be more desireable though.
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big E</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess if you had access to one, you could use a plunge EDM and have no burr at all. If you have access to a CNC setup the dovetail cutter, as Mr. Dixon described, would be more desireable though. </div></div>

You hit the nail on the head,....EDM not drilling is indeed how the rifles mentioned by the original poster are done.
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

So many questions...If you are repairing/replacing a barrel and are looking for an exact replication, see above.

If not...a few basic questions as integral CF rifle cartridges are a whole other set a issues.
Huge difference between .22 and just about everything else. On the .22 it is now one hole.
Which is it, .22 or other?
Are you looking to drop SS CF rounds to subsonic?
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

looks like the CNC machine is turning out to be the best invention since the arc welder! a young kid would do well to learn how to operate one of these...he could write his own ticket!
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

Holy cow RollingThunder! What exactly are we looking at there, other than a soup sandwich of some flavor.....
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Onyx
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

No that is the reality of an MP5SD and departments that dont follow the cleaning process dictated by the SD. Those pics are not relevant to the ports in the groove discussion.

It is relevant for those who run ported barrels and dont think they need to clean...
 
Re: Drilling port holes ONLY in the grooves. How?

I am trying to explain why the OP's observations are correct. The MP5 taps gas in the groove right after the chamber because the issue is velocity reduction to sub sonic. The example that the OP posted taps gas as part of an early first stage, but still ss, can design (the reason for my first question). The reason why the photo points to the importance of tapping in the groove is that many think that the porting can be placed anywhere, and it can if the result is for barrel rise/braking/flash. But when one is interested in tapping for velocity reduction and close to the chamber, three more things come into consideration. Two of those are the reason the ports are in the groove, namely avoidance of tearing the copper clad to minimize super heated lead particulate from filing in the blast chamber. The other is that structurally one want to keep the thickest part of the barrel wall intact (the land). Nothing will cut clad like a hole that cuts the corner of the land, especially the inside rotational edge (antithesis of R5, 5C, canted, polygon) . Those photos show what the effect is of the former just from either excessive amounts of lead tail exposure of relatively low pressure clad 9mm pistol ammo, or, unfortunately, pure lead bullets, either with in groove taps. The required cleaning for clad in the SD is after only 200 rounds (HK). That says something, as the requirements for cleaning a blast can in 9mm with the same ammo (clad) is perhaps 100x. Add the latter and the problem exacerbates. Add CF rifle cartridges and it gets more interesting. Like I said, perhaps it might come into play, but we need to know more.

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