Night Vision DT vs ST

aslrookie

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Mar 19, 2017
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I’m new to night vision and looking for some insight on which way I should lean towards. For those of you who have dual tubes, do you find the cost to be worth having duals vs a single tube?

My uses for NV would be general night time plinking with friends and patrol use. Although it will probably be used more for recreational purposes since my patrol area is in the cities.
 
One tube, for fun uses, does everything I need. Duals, for fun uses, makes it all the more fun. I wouldn’t go in debt to get duals but if the budget affords it, it’s a lot of fun. If you’re debating it, budget wise, it’s probably not worth the cost. If you know you’re into NV for the long haul and want to buy once, duals are the choice I’d make.
 
As said above, if budget allows then dual tube. Otherwise single tube and go dual later if you want. Single tube has allot of advantages in urban environments where you are going to be transitioning different light levels allot.

I got a pvs14 about 5 years ago and loved it. I’m just now starting to build goggles. I’ve used goggles at work regularly for the last 6 years and always loved them but can just now budget to afford them. If you start with a single tube of good quality you can always trade up years down the road. Or you could save while you have the single tube and just keep it then get goggles. I’m going to use my single tube for loaner one or for shooting video at night.
 
Maybe I will just start with a single tube setup then. I’ve been leaning towards white phosphorus vs the green. Have either of you used both and notice a difference? I’ve used green before but I’ve only seen pictures of white. White seems to be easier on the eyes.
 
Single offers more FOV in most cases. Your unaided eye can actually help you navigate like in the woods in most cases.

Dual offers more safety when driving lights out.

Dual offers better ability to see thru the tubes see at night in most cases. More aided info reaching the brain thru 2 eyes.

In most cases white tube sees as well as green tube, but costs more.

I find green tube easier on the eyes.

Green versus white might be a personal thing.
 
Awesome. I think single tube is the way I’m going to go. If later on I feel it’s worth it, I’ll just get another tube. I don’t have access to a bunch of personal land to shoot at night much. Do you know any places to buy used pvs 14 from?
 
Depends on the white tubes. Some white tubes you get commercially are not as good as what the spec ops guys are getting. There is a big demand for them right now because they are new, sometimes but not all the time your buying a lower spec white tube that did not quite meet the specs for current mil/le/other contracts. The good white tubes in my opinion are totally worth it and is a big difference. We are slowly starting to get our white tubes replaced in our green tube systems at work. I can see into shadows and dark areas much much better without supporting IR than green tubes. Since we don’t use IR that much at work it’s kind of big for me.

With all that said above, is it worth it, no... for personal use green is more than adequate. Wait a few years when they are not the new great thing and pick up a great spec white tubes goggles and the valve will be much more worth it.

Shop around for used and you will find a good deal. There are allot of deals that pop up on ar15.com as they have a night vision specific sale section. I just saw a Omni vii pvs14 go for $1400ish so they are there.

Good luck and once your hooked your hooked, it’s the worst kind of money grabbing addiction.
 
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Do you use single tube or duals for work? I’ve listened to some instructors say that a single tube system can be more beneficial in urban areas because it allows you to still see things that others are seeing with the unaided eye.

I’m not on a special team or swat, so it would be more for someone who fled on foot from a major highway into the woods or looking for someone in a state forest.
 
The white tubes that are lower spec than the spec ops guys use are considered commercial tubes.

There are also cheaper white tubes being sold right now that are photonis echo tubes. Do not mistake these tubes for 4G tubes because they are not. When photonis are producing 4G tubes, some of them miss the 4G specifications for whatever reason. Maybe bad pc response, bad resolution etc... They then dub them an echo and sell them off cheap to dealers. Some of these can look very pleasing to civilians, some of these look like complete crap. About 1 out of 5 are actually worth using from what I’ve been seeing. I have sold a few with 74lp resolution and low 30 snr lately but the rest of the batch were trash.

The comm spec L3 white filmless tubes can be amazing. These L3 Omni VIII tubes have a really tight spot chart. You won’t see many with so much as a spec in the view. So if there’s a really nice spec tube with a little tiny spot in zone 3 it gets dubbed comm spec and kicked aside. For someone that doesn’t know any better they think commercial they think it’s not near as good as milspec, well that’s not always the case. I sold a comm spec last week that was 72lp,35.7snr, 2,550 pc sens, .6 ebi,68,500 gain and 2570 FOM for $3200 in a Vyper C housing with 5 year warranty all because it has a .006x.008 spot in zone 3....

As the gentleman said above, with the L3 white tubes you can see into shadows better with these tubes than any other tube on the market. NOT because they are white though. It is because they are filmless. When L3 introduced the white phosphor tubes, the phosphor screen color was just an added kicker to sell the tubes and have people notice them. They changed their whole manufacturing process of filmless tubes when they came out with white phosphor. The older filmless tubes were all green and had decent specs but nothing like we see today. An occasional 72lp and usually 27-28 snr was typical. After this change even the green tubes can hit mid 30’s on snr and usually 72lp. The white phosphor doesn’t help or hurt anything. It’s just preference. Green was selected to be used in i2 optics for a reason and that reason being that the human eye can see more shades of green than any other color. Not white. Personally either one is fine with me. The actual specifications of the tube is what matters in the end.

Happy Father’s Day men, pour yourself a stiff one tonight, you deserve it.

Jay
 
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Yes what was said above is what I have heard as to white tubes right now. That was explained much better than I could have and even learned a few things.

I use dual tubes at work as we fly with them and two tubes do much much better at controlling vehicles and aircraft than single tube. My personal NVD is a pvs14 and im starting to build a RNVG dual tube goggles with some older anvis spec tubes now. I find dual tubes are much more easy to learn on and maneuver with which is why they are better for vehicle use. Having both eyes see helps the brain function a little easier with what it’s seeing. Dual tubes suffer a little in higher light environments when moving from high to low or low to high light allot in gun fight type of situations. The advantage of nightvision is staying in the dark areas as much as possible to use the dark places as a sort of concealment. If you’re changing lighting environments and on goggles you have to pay allot of attention to if you are actually in the dark areas or if you’ve been lighted or worse backlit. The goggles adjust pretty well so if you’re not paying attention you could walk into a area that makes you more visable to others and losing your advantage of concealment in the dark. You can help with this by looking under the goggles and paying attention to lighting. In most cases when you get to that point you can transition your goggles up and switch to rifle optic and white light. You can also choose to keep them down so you can see into the shadows better and just understand you don’t have as much concealment that you once. At that point you can choose to move to cover and gain concealment that way or move back into the shadows.

With a single tube it’s harder to drive with but better in a way for gun fighting. If your right handed then you put the nod over your left eye. The eye typically with the most light is going to dominate. You also have a free eye to see in the higher light environments you might move to. This allows you to keep the single tube down and work in the higher lighting. You can see your being lit up by lighting more and you can also transition to your rifle optic without flipping it up.

Just depends on really if I’m going to be playing around a kill house that has lots of different lighting then I might choose the 14. I live in the country so duals are supreme for me. That said there is a reason why allot of MIL/LE are using duals more and more. With a little bit of training and awareness you can think ahead enough to take all the advantages of duals and not suffer as much of the few downsides.

I will say this is based on a very very limited opinion as I do the gun fighting stuff more for fun and learning. I am in no way or even close to an authority in NVG gun fighting. I’ve just picked up a few tips from the experts and correlate allot of that with my very good understanding of NVG’s abilities and down falls.

A good gen 3 single tube may not be the cool hotness but it is cheaper and is really not behind dual tubes by much. A good pvs14 holds its own against goggles and I see use for having both but staring at a 14 is a very very good way to start. In my opinion for what it’s worth.
 
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Agree with the last several posts but I will add one detail from experience ...

A single 14 actually works better than you might think, better than I would've thought, navigating in thick woods in dark conditions. It is VERY rare, that conditions are so dark, that that unaided eye sees 100% total blackness.

I did a recent night walk exercise with 12 of us. All the weapons were cleared and had BFA. We had a total of 9 i2 head mounted nods and a total of 4 head mounted thermals, 2 weapon mounted thermals and 1 hand held thermal. We were in 3 teams of 4. The OPFOR were 4 guys and they were the refs. They had 3 x i2 NODs and 1 handheld thermal. My main shooting buddy and I had all 4 head mounted nods, each with patrol on left eye, 14 and COTI on right eye. He had Pulsar APEX on his carbine, I had mk3 60mm on my carbine. Our Blue team divided into 2 teams of 4 each. One team rode to their insertion point via truck, my team humped to our OP on our LPCs.
Our team lead was #2 ... our point (#1) had 1 pvs-14, #2 had 1 pvs-14, #3 had my mk3 60mm, He could provide rapid support to #2 to check out a given area with thermal. I was tail end charlie doing 360s with the patrol on my head, expecting the OPFOR to try to sneak up on our flanks and rear.
We were in rough hilly woods with large gullys and large (some large than man sized) boulders. Lots of tree fall. The point guy did an amazing job of keeping us moving quickly in the directions we planned out with our map planning prior to starting the walk. We took 2 min hydration breaks about every 10m. Our #2 did radio checks with the other blue team #2 about every other stop.
I had to "run" (haha) to catch up often after doing my 360s which I did mostly stationary.
Once our #2 thought we were about to contact our friendly team (after which we were supposed to "assault" the enemy camp), he moved me to point. I think that was because I had the head mounted thermals and would be better able to spot critters with two legs.
So I was point. I had already focused my 14 down about at my feet, that enabled me to see the ground I was moving across, but I had the patrol focused at infinity where i normally have it ... for spotting.
It was very rough going, and between looking out ahead for 2 legged critters, and following the general directions of the team lead as to path and trying to negotiation over and around the deadfall and tree clumps and branches, I think I was frustrating the TL a little, because we were not moving as fast as we had been. But I saw a 2 legged critter and we all went to ground. So did the 2-legged critter I saw. Then that critter waved ... and the TL told me to wave, so I did. Then we made Radio contact with out other team and we were good, we had meet up. Then we oriented towards the OPFOR camp which our brother team had located and assaulted.
In the post mission review, my buddy told me he had been point the whole time for his team and had ditched the patrol, so he had an unaided eye to help navigate thru the woods. Our point also told me that it was critical to his ability to move fast having the one unaided eye. I could see around my NODs but the brightness still made it difficult to rely on what I could see outside the bright round halos.
On my land I navigate on foot a lot with no head mounted nodes, or just a thermal or just a 14 and a COTI, but this was the first time, on unfamiliar ground, I was realizing that less NODs on your head might be better for navigating thru thick woods in the dark. that extra FOV is worth more than the extra seeing ability with reduced FOV. And be aware ... I've had some people tell me they think goggles have twice the FOV over one PVS-14. That is NOT the case. Those two circles better overlap exactly !!! :)
 
Thanks for the info guys! My friends make it seem like I’d be foolish to buy a single tube 14. I can see how the duals would make it easier to drive vs a single tube, but if I’m looking for a lost person or potential suicidal subject in a forest, chances are I’ll be on foot rather than in a vehicle when using them.
 
There is another aspect we have not mentioned yet and that is the "brain" issue. Apparently, some people get "dizzy" when running a single tube (or display) NOD on their head. I am not among them, so I forget about this. But for instance, the single tube PVS-7 might help those people even though it is a single tube device it is a "bi-ocular" and shows the image from that one device to both eyes, thus perhaps mitigating this "dizzy" issue.
The good thing about PVS-14 is if you want to get a second one and run it side by side one day that is totally possible. Further more, folks like Pet Lesbo (i2 tech) can "collimate" the two separate tubes so things line up well.
I have two 14s and I run them as a pair sometimes ... especially when driving a vehicle with glass, lights out on unfamiliar ground.

But for stepping around in the woods or pastures, 1 x 14 seems pretty good in most conditions because you can still use your unaided eye to help.
 
The other thing that kinda bugs me about using duals is you are pretty much reliant upon an IR laser as an aiming device. Unless there is a technique I’m missing? At least with a single setup I can switch to white light/use the optic without having to tilt my head back or flip tubes out of the way.

My experience with NV is very limited. I used it maybe 3 times in my entire military time (used white light mostly) and trying out my friends NV setups.

From a LE perspective on routine patrol, if I come across someone, chances are I’ll end up switching to white light because if anyone else is around they will have no clue what I’m seeing. “Drop the weapon” commands would make me really nervous if my partner could see and I couldn’t. The chances of my partner having NV are slim to none.

It’s interesting that it was mentioned the single tube goes over the non-dominant eye. I would have thought otherwise. Does it matter whether you shoot both eyes open or does this help with navigating?
 
With duals, or even a single for me, I either use the laser or a flip up (or out ... my bridge allows flipping out which does not point the vis light end of the pvs-14 towards the target).
I use the pas-29 on the pvs-14 to allow thermal overlay to the nv image. That way I can target a critter in or behind brush, that I can only see with thermal. The 14 sees the laser, the thermal sees the critter.

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In my terrain, along the banks of the creeks especially, that scenario happens quite a lot.

But, I don't risk the 14 touching a gun moving under recoil much ... I have done it and paid the price ... malignant black recoil spot in the 14 tube. So don't do it any more. Of course if life or death .. the risk matrix works differently. But in general, if I am "ambushing" meaning I see the target in time to flipout quitely and aim before the target detects me, then I flip out ... and aim with the thermal on the rifle ... else if "hip shooting" ... I aim with the laser and the 14/29 ...

if hunting critters that shoot back ... I would train with this gear 100s of times before I used it in real life ... when I started practicing at night, I was told it would take me two years to get there. That said, the guy that told me that, went to Iraq, straight into combat, using NODs in battle with zero prior training ... so the military doesn't always follow this advice ! But I would train a lot before hand if I could ... the devil is in the details.

For instance... there are "Force to Overcome" flipup systems .. and there are "button" systems. I like the button systems because I can flip up out out with zero sound with one hand.
Most people who have gone in harms way prefer the FTO systems because they are faster. I have both and I use both, but just pointing out that which one you use does matter ... and this is just one of 1,000 "devil in the details" ... that you will learn when you go out those 100s of times I'm talking about.
 
... if I’m looking for a lost person or potential suicidal subject in a forest ...

Also, if you are doing this, I think you need thermal. At the very least a thermal to detect, then perhaps big green vis light (will light up the woods without so much reflection coming back at you as white light does ... you must try green filtered vis light in woods).
Or, preferably thermal AND pvs-14 ... which is what I do.

But for detecting people in the woods, under most conditions, I would want thermal. That's leaning towards the strength of thermal.
 
I figured thermal would be better, but thermal is even more money than a 14. Everything that I’ve seen that’s in the price range of a Gen 3 14 is a thermal weapon mounted optic.

Unfortunately my dept is paying for this. For me, it’s the occasional look for someone in dark areas attempting to elude or missing persons. After that, it’s hobby use.

The 14 and thermal option, how much is something like that?
 
Well a "useful" thermal for your use case ... almost designed for it .. though far from "the best at it" ... is the new FLIR "Breach" ... those list for around $2,500 ... and hopefully street price is around $2,000.

And a useful 14 with a used tube will be around $2,000 ... if you can work with a blem tube ... maybe down to $1,500.

So around $4,000 for both. You would wear the 14 on your head and the Breach on a lanyard around your neck.
 
Well a "useful" thermal for your use case ... almost designed for it .. though far from "the best at it" ... is the new FLIR "Breach" ... those list for around $2,500 ... and hopefully street price is around $2,000.

And a useful 14 with a used tube will be around $2,000 ... if you can work with a blem tube ... maybe down to $1,500.

So around $4,000 for both. You would wear the 14 on your head and the Breach on a lanyard around your neck.
That sounds like an absolute great setup for the money. Not elite tier stuff but it gets you so much capability. The only thing I may change, if you aren’t head mounting the breach, is to look at one of the Pulsar handhelds. Seems they have a few 384 core options in the $1500-$1700 range. That savings spent either on a better pvs14 or just saved seems like a good use, though the form factor of the breach is top of the line.
 
Wow, he'd better hurry! I didn't think there were any of those left to buy as NEW for over a year!

As to used tube 14s I would send him to surgeon_shooter ...
 
BLUF: If I were starting over today and knowing what I know now, if I could afford it, I would start with white phosphor duals.

Now the much, much longer version, hahaha. Lots of good points brought up in this thread so far that I’m going to try to address, starting, obviously, with the original question, but also moving into some of the other points that have been brought up in the discussion.



One of the unfortunate things about NV is that a lot of times it’s simply hard to know what will work best of you until you try it. For example, some people simply cannot use a monocular. It’s a small proportion, but they are out there, their brains simply cannot reconcile the single-NV aided eye and single unaided eye, and actually prefer biocular devices like the PVS-7 to monoculars like the PVS-14.

On the opposite end of that spectrum, very few people I have met, especially when it comes to professional end-users—i.e., people who are using issued devices and therefore would neither care to justify an expensive purchase, nor try to convince themselves that they like something cheaper better profess to prefer a monocular after using dual tubes.

That being said, they are out there.

Unfortunately, the only real way to find out where you might fall here is to try multiple different devices before purchasing, but this is understandably not always a realistic option for many people. However, the “average” user will be able to do fine with a monocular, but will prefer a binocular if it is an option.

Now, beyond individual differences and preferences:

How effective is a monocular alone? A monocular can be very effective when used by a trained user. As others have alluded to, most people have a fairly strong eye dominance, meaning that even in your day to day life in daylight conditions, your brain is primarily processing input from your dominant eye. Your non-dominant eye is primarily providing depth perception (viewing everything from a slightly different angle), supplementary data, and peripheral vision. Granted, most people can change back and forth fairly easily if the dominant eye is no longer receiving good information, whether through injury, sweat, blood, or... because the non-dominant eye has an NVD in front of it, and it’s freaking dark out.

With a monocular, under most lighting conditions, your unaided eye can still provide much of the same supplementary information you’re used to getting from your non-dominant eye, whether you consciously realize it or not. For this reason, a monocular will provide most people with much better depth perception and situational awareness than a biocular device, which uses a single tube to project the same image to both eyes, effectively “tricking” the brain into thinking that it has stereoscopic vision, despite the fact that it is not getting all the supplemental information it thinks it is.

Meanwhile, it is somewhat obvious why so many people prefer duals if they are an option—it allows you to use your eyes the way you’re used to using them, namely, both of them, looking at slightly different things, allowing you to create a stereoscopic image.

A note on wearing dual tubes:

A lot of people will claim that a monocular will give you better situational awareness of lighting changes, along with better peripheral vision because they are able to use their unaided eye. This can be true to a certain extent, however, the reality is that often, whether wearing a monocular or binocular NVD, most users simply wear them too close and too low to their faces, to the point where their entire FOV is consumed by the device. Rubber eye-cups make this even worse, as they close off your eye(s) from any external inputs.

A much better option is to both a) either to remove or at least roll back the rubber eye cups, and b) wear the NVD (mono or bino) further forward and higher up, so that the NV image sits in the upper 2/3rds of the “natural” field of view, while leaving the lower 1/3rd or so of your FOV unobscured, rather like wearing bifocals. This also gives you a “full” FOV “beyond” the 40 degree FOV offered by the device alone.

This allows you to “look” up (or slightly tilt your head down), and still have a full NV view, but you can also tip your head up, and look under the NVD if you’re suddenly in a lit environment and don’t have time to stow your NVDs. This also allows you to continue to receive supplementary information about lighting conditions and peripheral vision, even while wearing dual-tube goggles, and while it is true that binoculars eliminate the possibility of keeping one eye dark-adapted, the reality is that under most conditions that a dark-adapted eye is needed—an NV-aided image will be more useful, most other scenrios involve stronger artificial light situations, whether they are street lights/room lights, or weapon-mounted white lights, where the “advantage” of having a dark-adapted eye is largely moot.

A lot of folks have brought up how much better duals are for driving, or god forbid, flying—but this is only part of the story: the reality is that duals give you better information about your environment, surroundings, and relative distances, the difference is that when you’re moving very fast, i.e., driving or flying, it makes a big difference, it’s just that when you’re walking, you’re moving slowly enough to be able to manage sub-optimal visual data, nevertheless, the things that make dual tubes far superior while moving extremely fast don’t go away when you’re moving slowly, they’re just a little less important.

Taking a detour—using both a thermal monocular and an NV monocular at the same time head mounted is not necessarily impossible, but extremely difficult for most people, because the images and information are not only so different, but depending on the type of thermal device, you may have a lag due to refresh rates of the thermal image that you may not consciously notice, but your brain most certainly will. This of course does not apply to fusion systems like the PAS-29 and other COTI devices or devices like the AN/PSQ-20 ENVG and PSQ-36 FGS.

Others have covered white phosphor versus green phosphor fairly well, so I would only have a couple of things to add:

The main benefit of currently available WP tubes versus green phosphor tubes is mostly a function of the extremely high-specs of the L3 WP Unfilmed tubes, not the phosphor color itself. [Shameless plug] The unfilmed white phosphor tubes we carry in our devices come direct from L3 and must meet out custom spec requirements, and while the very highest spec’ed tubes are being reserved for those at the very tip top of the spear, our custom specs are comparable to the tubes to those being delivered to for military use.

At the same time, as others have mentioned—just because a tube is white phosphor does not necessarily mean that it’s an L3 unfilmed tube, there are filmed white phosphor tubes, as well as Gen. 2+ white phosphor tubes, and these tubes can run the full spectrum of quality, but white phosphor itself is not an indicator of quality or performance, it’s the other specifications that you need to look at to ensure that you get a good tube.

Now, in terms of which is “better” in an equal spec’ed green or white tube:

Most users report that they find white phosphor preferable, that it creates less eye strain, particularly during sustained use, provides a better image, and gives them more contrast and detail. This opinion is strong enough that US SOF is almost completely making the shift to WP tubes.

That being said, every individual is different, and almost certainly, someone will again point out that the human eye is supposed to be able to perceive more shades of green than any other color (hence the reason for green phosphor being selected in the first place), and that the WP image being brighter is simply a matter of perception, but is not actually true.

Ultimately, this all may be scientifically correct, however, none of it changes the fact that again, with a small minority of exceptions, professional end users who are not constrained by budget concerns tend to prefer WP over green for their purposes. Again, the reality is that while the scientific body of knowledge is extremely useful, we still don’t necessarily understand fully how the brain receives and interprets the information being received from the eyes and how that translates to operational performance.

So, some thoughts about employment, starting with dominant versus non-dominant eye for a monocular:

The conventional wisdom has long been to prefer the use of the non-dominant eye with a monocular like the PVS-14. This is the way I was taught as I was “coming up,” and has been taught a long time by some very experienced guys.

This technique was often driven by a rationale that your dominant eye would be “better” at receiving information without NV-aid, while your non-dominant eye would get the better information, “evening things out.”

However, as I explained above, that’s simply not really how most people’s eyes work, and in fact, the “confusion” of receiving the “better” image through the non-dominant eye can cause some people bad enough headaches to make non-dominant eye use almost impossible.

On the other hand, with the increasing proliferation of dual tube goggles, end-users have begun to realize that even when using only a single tube, having your dominant eye be able to see well is really, really useful. In fact, your brain doesn’t really care how well your non-dominant and/or un-aided eye can see as long as it’s getting its supplemental information—however, your brain is used to using your dominant eye to get most of its information, and is therefore simply generally better at interpreting information from that eye.

This, and a few other reasons I will also go into have led to many people beginning to change from recommending the use of monoculars over the non-dominant eye to the dominant, or at very least, “whatever you’re most comfortable with,” i.e., don’t try to fight yourself to use your non-dominant eye if you’re more comfortable with your dominant.

Another reason also relates to the final point I will touch on, aiming:

In the past, the conventional wisdom about aiming while using NVDs has been “IR Laser or nuttin’!”

However, while IR lasers are still extremely effective and extremely useful, it has become increasingly obvious that the US and its allies are not the only ones with NV technology—NV devices can be bought on Amazon, units have been lost or stolen overseas, and in many cases we have fielded large numbers of devices to host nation forces that can and do fall into enemy hands with disturbing regularity.

Moreover—it doesn’t take a top of the line Gen. 3 device to be able to detect a force trying to sneak around in the dark if they’re flashing their IR lasers all over the place and lighting up their movement like a Christmas Tree, under the mistaken assumption that they can’t be seen.

Because of this, there has been an increased interest and emphasis on using passive aiming techniques when the situation may dictate, that is using a head mounted NVD to sight directly through an NV-compatible weapon sight.

Of course, depending on the height of your weapon sights, you can run into some significant hardware interference if you’re trying to run “traditional height” optics/optic mounts, and a “nose to charging handle” (with ARs) shooting technique. This has then contributed to the increasing popularity of “tall” optics, as well as the use of risers under traditional height optics to make it easier to aim passively through the sight with an NVD. Obviously, there are other advantages to high mounted optics, but interoperability with head-mounted NVDs has been one of the main advantages of these mounts, with companies like Geissele, KAC, ADM, and others now offering mounts ranging between 1.93” to 2.33” above the top of an AR reciever rail (for comparison, most absolute cowitness optics are ~1.52-1.54” tall).

Now, another one of the reasons often cited for using an NV monocular over the non-dominant eye has been that been that the day sight could still be used, either as an occluded eye sight, or in a transition to white light. While this will work, IMHO, it is far from an ideal situation compared to using the monocular to aim through the primary sight while on an NV-setting.

Meanwhile, during transitions to white light, with the NVD mounted “forward and high,” and with the optic on a taller mount, the user can engage with the primary optic from under the NVD. Moreover, many users seem to continue to think the NVD’s can’t be used in visible lighting conditions. However, it’s not that they won’t function, it’s simply not good for the device, however, you can still engage through an NVD with white light, either using the IR laser or primary optic if need be. Again, positioning the NVD high and forward allows you to have a full FOV “when the lights go on,” but you will still be able to see IR lasers through it—the housing will largely “disappear,” much like the housing of an RDS disappears when shooting with the both eyes open. Both these techniques will work with either a monocular or binocular NVD.

Whew. A little longer than I intended, hahaha...

~Augee
 
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I have both.

I have extensive experience fighting with the PVS14, but never used a dual/ANVIS until just recently.

Without a long ass explanation, you'll be fine with either and you won't be at a disadvantage regardless of which you go with as long as they are quality tubes/housings and not some ATN shit. For plinking/night shooting I'd personally just go with a PVS14 due to cost. If you were going to be driving I'd say get the duals.

As far as shooting with them, it takes a bit of time to set up your PVS14 to work with how your gun and your stance are. As mentioned above, you'll want to modify how your PVS is angled and set on your helmet so that its sort of looking up; you'll realize why the first time you try and get any kind of 'fighting stance' going while shouldering your weapon. My advice here is to wear your PVS over your left (weaker, assuming your right handed) and abandon trying to aim down a RDS that is NV compatible. It sounds great on paper, but its fucking retarded and takes more effort than its worth. Duals come in here with a slight advantage as you will have 2 eyes that are lit up instead of trying to get it all done with 1. With some time and practice, you'll be fine and you'll figure it out.

Duals to me seem clearer and give a huge field of view. PVS14 I've always liked the fact I had 1 eye in the dark; for some reason I always feel it gave me better peripheral vision.
 
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Thanks for the info guys! My friends make it seem like I’d be foolish to buy a single tube 14. I can see how the duals would make it easier to drive vs a single tube, but if I’m looking for a lost person or potential suicidal subject in a forest, chances are I’ll be on foot rather than in a vehicle when using them.

YMMV - I do not find driving (shitty 1.5 lane wide logging roads) hard with an ST. What is hard is depth perception issues related to things like stepping over a log, a significant elevation change on trail or off, traversing rock - I find those things hard.

DTs would be fun and as noted above it would afford a wider FOV.
 
DTs would be fun and as noted above it would afford a wider FOV.

I've heard several people say this about wider fov for 2 x 14s, but I am not on board.

A PVS-14 has 40 degrees. Two PVS-14s mounted properly with the two circles merged into one circle (that's what I see .. one circle) ... well that's still 40 degrees. Now maybe, maybe it is 42-ish due to the interpupillary distance ?? Or maybe it is still 40 or maybe it is 40.0002

But I'd bet is isn't much more than 40 if not exactly 40.

==
I would actually argue ST is more fov in most cases. Your unaided eye can actually see useful amount of terrain out there ... on most nights ... not all nights ... but on most nights ... so add the fov of that eye ... and you have waaaay more than 40.
 
wig Is right, duals won’t get you anymore field of view than a single will. But it will offer depth perception when walking around on those really dark nights. Most people hunt in fields, including myself. So depth perception isnt a huge thing because In most cases the only thing you can trip on is an occasional cow patty. But when I deer hunt I walk to and from my tree with a helmet and duals on my head. I’ve learned that a pvs-14 is my favorite when slaying hogs or yotes. But when I need to walk quietly through the wooded areas where I will be stepping over logs, crossing creeks and reaching for over hanging limbs to keep them from knocking me in the head, there is no doubt whatsoever that dual tube set ups are king.

Jay
 
There actually isn’t any more depth perception with 2 tubes vs one. There is a perceived depth perception with two tube and is your brain tricking you. Both eyes are seeing the same flat 40 degree image of which you can’t pick out any more depth than you would with a single tube seeing the same flat 40 degree image. Some argue that you do get actual depth perception increase with two but that’s not entirely true. You may get a slight increase due to the image you are seeing from ether eye is slightly offset from each other but it reality it’s not enough. Fact is you are still seeing the same image projected on the flat screen by both eyes and just doesn’t give you actual increased depth only perceived. Looking only through the tubes your not going to gain depth perception any better with one vs two tubes. Allot like staring at a landscape on a tv with one eye closed or both open, it’s a flat image anyway you look at it. This is why they train us in flight to also look under the goggles and looking for certain visual clues. There are tricks to use to gain depth from a flat image but those same tricks can also trick you right back. I would agree that a single tube would allow better depth perception to a degree because you have one eye unencumbered by a flat image producing tube.

At any rate that is what they teach us and right or wrong the brain has an amazing way of adapting and functioning that it can fill in a lot of gaps for us.
 
.. But when I need to walk quietly through the wooded areas where I will be stepping over logs, crossing creeks and reaching for over hanging limbs to keep them from knocking me in the head, there is no doubt whatsoever that dual tube set ups are king ...

I've even come to think differently about this. Again, in depends a bit on the conditions ... and even the person. But, it a recent multi-person night walk exercise (which I described in detail in the "practicing" thread) the first point guy in my squad had a single 14 ... I was tail end charlie with a 14 on one eye and a patrol on the other. I was doing 360s often to make sure the OPFOR weren't coming up on our flanks and rear ... the guys looking and the guy picking the trail are best off being different people. The terrain was rough. A wooded hill with big gulley's and larger than man sized boulders and lots of dead fall. I was amazed at how well 01 (our name for point) was moving so quickly through the rough terrain. I had to almost run to catch up sometimes after a 360.
Just prior to the point where the squad leader thought we would make contact, he switched me to point, since I had the thermal on my head and would be more likely to first see any live critters out there in the woods. I really struggled picking the "best" path through the woods, trying to balance rate of speed with minimal noise generation, with moving in the direction indicated by the squad leader, with trying to stay upright, with trying to spot live critters. I thought I was making entirely too much noise.

During the debrief after the event, the OPFOR said they saw us before they heard us, which was shocking to me given the amount of noise I was making.
Our point told me, even given how dark it was in the woods, he was still getting significant useful input from his unaided eye. And so I've become an ST guy IF I am finding the path in the woods .. I've tried it several times now and I am sold on the ST for the path finder. The next guy should be the one with the helmet mounted thermal ... and a 14 ... but point should have 1x14 IMHO.

==

Maybe "depth perception" is not the right term. But with 14s, if everything is working correctly, both the gear and the human, then there are two slightly different images being projected onto two different retinas, which should give the brain the needed input to triangulate. Perhaps the correct term is "steropsis" ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereopsis

==
Apparently, some of the people who study this subject in humans are ophthalmologists and I am not one of those people !!! :)

... that is what they teach us ...

So we bow to the ophthalmologists and their teachers !!!
 
I strongly disagree with you here.

With an image intensifier you do not look at a screen. You look through the image intensifier. Your statement would ring true if we were talking about thermal optics because then you are in fact looking at a screen and not through the optic. Don’t believe me then test for yourself. Reach for something your looking at with a thermal optic and then repeat with a i2 device.

I do see where your coming from with the un aided eye offering better depth perception. On those half-full moon nights I actually prefer a single. It’s lighter, I retain my natural vision in my un aided eye and I can see up close and mid distance without having to focus a lens. But if you have used i2 very much at all you surely know that on some nights it’s dark. Really really dark. Then you walk into some thick wooded areas with no moon and you have thick cloud cover and it feels like you fell into a black hole. That un aided eye is good for nothing.... Hell the Filmless L3 on your head is barely useful at this point.

Whether someone can walk around quieter with a single, dual or quad tube set up depends solely on them I guess. But people don’t need to get the idea that dual tube setups do not offer depth perception. If they didn’t have perks they never would have been put into service by the special forces.

Wigawatimus, your in Kansas. Your idea of wooded area is a tree line ?. Louisiana is like Vietnam in places. The moonlight couldn’t get through the canopy if the moon fell to earth.
 
... I strongly disagree with you here. ...

Great ! I support you having an opinion if you likewise support my having one !!! :D

==
... Your idea of wooded area is a tree line ...

Your assumption is invalid. We have "jungles" around here in which you could not move, period.

==
I think we should each speak to our own experience and not try to instruct others on their environments and experiences. :)

That is certainly what I try to do!
 
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Lots of good info in this thread. Most of my overseas tours saw me using ST's. Now I use DT's. I can take either and not feel badly equipped at all. I think it just comes down to practice and experience. Though I will say, driving in Afghanistan with a 14 was not the most fun I've ever had. Probably would have been glad to have DT's then! One of these days I'll have to mess with thermals, but for my personal and professional use, I'm still using DT's and clipons.
 
I strongly disagree with you here.

With an image intensifier you do not look at a screen. You look through the image intensifier. Your statement would ring true if we were talking about thermal optics because then you are in fact looking at a screen and not through the optic. Don’t believe me then test for yourself. Reach for something your looking at with a thermal optic and then repeat with a i2 device.

I do see where your coming from with the un aided eye offering better depth perception. On those half-full moon nights I actually prefer a single. It’s lighter, I retain my natural vision in my un aided eye and I can see up close and mid distance without having to focus a lens. But if you have used i2 very much at all you surely know that on some nights it’s dark. Really really dark. Then you walk into some thick wooded areas with no moon and you have thick cloud cover and it feels like you fell into a black hole. That un aided eye is good for nothing.... Hell the Filmless L3 on your head is barely useful at this point.

Whether someone can walk around quieter with a single, dual or quad tube set up depends solely on them I guess. But people don’t need to get the idea that dual tube setups do not offer depth perception. If they didn’t have perks they never would have been put into service by the special forces.

Wigawatimus, your in Kansas. Your idea of wooded area is a tree line ?. Louisiana is like Vietnam in places. The moonlight couldn’t get through the canopy if the moon fell to earth.

Yes and no on looking through the intensifier. The electrons striking the phosphor screen is what is producing the image. The phosphor screen in and of itself is a flat image producing screen. It lights up the image as the electrons strike it. If you were looking through it then you would be able to see some sort of light when the device was off. Converting photons (visual particle of energy) to electrons (a slightly different electrical particle energy) is the only way to get the phosphor screen to produce an image and react to the electron. So yes you are looking through the image intensifier and well your not at the same time. That said the same thing can be said about our eyes. Our eyes are picking up light and the brain interpreting that light based on allot of different variables to produce an image. We rely heavy on our peripheral vision as well as our large field of view to interpret depth perception. Our brain also uses the distance between our eyes and the slightly offset viewing to help with depth perception. In dark enviroments we lose our peripheral for the most part and our field of view is cut way down to 40 degrees. About the only thing we gain from dual tubes is the space between our eyes allowing some improved depth perception but negligible at best as our eyes do use the space between them to help with depth perception. The brain is a miraculous thing and can adapt to allot of things including visual. This is why doing basic things under NVG's for the first time is hard but the brain adapts quicker and with dual tubes it adapts much quicker than single tube as our brain was designed for two eyes and when only one is seeing an image it has to adjust for that. It takes more initial time to adapt to single tube. Over time you get use to it as your brain adapts and it becomes second nature, the uncomfortable becomes comfortable.
 
Yes I agree with most of that and I understand how an image intensifier works. Looking at a image intensifier is absolutely nothing like looking at a LCD screen. If you don’t have good depth perception with dual tube i2 then you are a unique person. I can’t talk you into having depth perception, if you don’t have it then I’m sorry. Lol

Carry on folks I give up.
 
What is vision other than perception?

PVS-7s and other biocular devices "trick" you because you're seeing the same image.

That slight offset is exactly what creates depth perception. Whether or not you're conscious of it (it's not unless you have abnormal sensory function), your brain understands when it sees two images that are slightly different that it needs to integrate them and build a subconscious "3D map" of your environment--all sorts of perception and vision studies that have been done confirm the fact that a large part of what you think you "see" is really just your brain filling in the gaps and interpreting the images.

We can argue over the semantics of scientific terms all we want, but practically speaking, there's a reason that dual tubes are essentially a requirement for moving fast, i.e., as you mentioned, aviation, driving at high speeds, etc.--these things are not done with single tubes, driving under PVS-14s is something that's done at a much slower pace than usual over terrain, and much more slowly than can be achieved with dual tubes--I've spent a lot of time in motorized units using NVDs and other sensor systems.

When the military moved away from the AN/PVS-5s, they moved to the ANVIS for aviators (dual tubes), while they moved to the PVS-7s for infantry and other ground forces, largely on the logic that a single tube was "good enough" for infantrymen walking at a glacial pace, but that for flight applications, the dual tube was considered an absolute necessity. This isn't because aviators' brains were being "tricked."

If they taught you not to fully rely on your NVDs, it's likely out of an abundance of caution, because anyone would admit that NVDs aren't as good as unaided vision when you can use it, and your brain can pick up a lot of information that you might not be consciously aware of to help build that "mental picture" of the world--the point is, don't get "target fixated" on staring through your NVD, something that happens to novice NV users with great frequency.

As I've mentioned, even on the ground, you should spend a fair bit of time looking under and around your dual tube goggles, which gives you most of the supposed "benefits" of having a single tube versus a dual tube.

Once again, you can "science" it all you want, but there's a reason that over sixteen years into a conflict that has arguably been faster moving, in terms of actual speed of movement, OPTEMPO, and changes in TTPs--wherein much of the most kinetic stuff has been conducted at night, that almost all high-level professional end users are now using dual tubes, and the Army and Marine Corps are both looking at moving to dual tubes for conventional infantry as well.

~Augee
 
I’m curious on this as my dual use is a borrowed set for a weekend a year, far from extensive.

How are you setting the tubes up? Close to the eyes or far? How is the focus setup? Close or far? Depth perception is a close range feature and most of the advice I have seen is to set the I2 close to infinity. That seems to negate the effects of depth perception.

Say in a vehicle, moving at a fast pace. How are thing adjusted and does this minimize depth perception? I’d assume hiking would be different than driving (potentially one eye at distance and one closer for looking at the ground).

I’ve only driven twice with duals and it was on a wide, smooth, known trail so I don’t find that a good knowledge point. In that situation, I didn’t notice much/any difference from a single but it’s a very cherry picked setting that is far from driving in a hostile environment.

I guess my thought has always been that depth perception happens in part because we can change focus with our eyes as fast as we do. If you are focused at 200+ yards, everything close in is blurry enough that the offset is tough if not impossible to notice.

Can someone with experience chime in? I can’t say I picked up in depth better with the duals but I’m mostly sitting in a blind waiting for pigs to come in and my focus is set somewhere around 300-400 yards.
 
Benz,

As for set up I run my duals about the distance that an eye cup would put you but I never run eye cups. If I were to go to war and my life be on the line, maybe then I would use eye cups to conceal as much of the face splash as possible. But hogs can hardly see during the day muchless at night. As for focus, that can be a large opinion subject. I focus my duals on where I’m looking. If I’m in a field and scanning for critters I focus them out to 100-200 yards. If I’m in a wooded area I HAVE focused one eye for close (about 5yards) and focus the other eye to 50 or so yards. I’ve found that that works pretty good for navigating through and around obstacles. But if I’m moving through a wooded area that is pretty well lighted with moonlight or if I’m using a ir flood there’s a truck to reallllly help dual tube users.

There are a couple lens covers that are really expensive that do the same thing but you can do it yourself. If you take a pair of butler creek flip caps and put them on your objectives then cut a small hole in the center of the butler creek cap (about the size of a pencil) your focal range increases drastically. For instance, usually if your focused on something at 25 yards objects at 50 yards is blurry. If you do this with the butler creek cap the distance of your focus point will reach further than before. This not only works on duals but on monoculars as well. Start with a smaller hole and work your way up. If the hole is too small your tubes will become more noisy. Increase the holes until the image clears. Note that on really dark nights this may not be beneficial because your tubes will struggle with gathering light through the small holes.

Jay
 
Went out last night for some good ole real world evidence gathering :)

IkBzXR4.jpg


Before going out, I adjusted the sh^t out of the 14s, to get the best possible alignment, so i would be seeing ONE CIRCLE with my two eyes.

After going out, I focused the sh^t out of the 14s ... both diopters and both focus rings. I used the "artillery method". Turn it one way until it gets fuzzy, then turn it the other way until it gets fuzzy and back or forth, shorter distance each time until it is "in the middle" (bracketing). And I did that with all four "focus rings". I was focused. Then I looked around.

My memory, is that with 2x14s I can see better placement of what is closer than what. Like a 3D electronic shooting gallery game, the nearer weeds stand out from the weeds 20yds behind them. So, I was looking for that phenomena. This might be called "occulation" by the "experts" (the ophthalmologists). When moving laterally, I could certainly see "motion parallax" though this cue is one of the monocular cues, not one of the binocular ones.
Stereopsis and Convergence are the two true binocular cues ... and those are not easy for me to judge. Stereopsis is caused by the triangulation of the object involving the interpupillary distance (IPD). Yes the brain can perform this activity. And all the parts are in place for the brain to perform this activity when we use dual 14s or other dual tube devices. Slightly different images projected on to the two retinas. So, I cannot understand why some might believe Stereopsis cannot happen when we use dual 14s or other dual tube devices. When the Ophthalmologists or their ilk show up, I guess they can tell us for sure, but until then, I will continue to believe that we do have depth perception with dual tube devices. Provided everything (including the human) is working.

After 5 minutes of looking around and testing for ability to perceive 3D, I repeated the 4 knob focusing exercise. I focused at about 100yds like I usually do and I adjusted the MG on both 14s as well, to optimize ability to see images from both tubes. So, I actually decreased the gain slightly in the dominant eye vis a vis the non-dominant eye. I keep first one eye open and then the other eye only open ... and then both eyes. So I was testing each eye individually as well as both together while moving and while standing still to see the differences. The monocular cues were pronounced, I could see them and I think I could see them more clearly (occulation and motion parallax especially) with both eyes than with either one. I do not know how to judge stereopsis, but again, I must believe it exists for duals, if it exists for our unaided eyes.

==
One other detail. There was mention of looking around outside what we see thru the tubes to gain more information ... and I'd say we do that whether we think about doing it or not. But, if we only have one tube, then the unaided eye has much better night vision and much better ability to gather information, at least in the majority of night time circumstances I am in. So I do not consider that we have equal ability to gather info outside the tubes between dual and single tube use cases.

Even on a moonless night, the star light is tremendous out here. The milky way is very bright ... and before I moved out here I never saw the milky way, but when I first did see it out here I guessed right away what it was. What else could that giant swath of stuff up there be !!?? And it is very visible on the clear nights right now, like last night. From the SSE to the NNW a giant swath of gas and stars all the way across the sky. And looking at it with NV is great, that's one sight even our neighbors and my wife like to see through NV.

==
For me, right now, if I am operating a vehicle, lights out, I want dual i2.

Otherwise, I want one thermal and one 14 on my head with the pas29 on the 14. That gives me intermediate distance thermal spotting (IR-Patrol or Skeet IR) on my head hands free while moving, as well as navigation and ir-laser visibiity (PVS-14) and thermal overlay to engage close targets the thermal can see that the 14 cannot, with the laser the 14 can see (the 29 on the 14).

As an exception, if I am point moving thru woods or other rough terrain, and I am supported by others having thermal spotters, then I will take the thermal off my head and go with one 14 with the 29 and use the un-aided eye to provide more FOV.
 
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really a good thread, and it is very clear that there is no single right answer that fits everyone,but there sure is a lot of good experience here.
I have a fair amount of time using both NV and thermal. but not near as much as some here. I have tried just about everything at one time or another. My use these days is pig and varmint hunting, on mostly open or very slightly wooded terrain. After having tried a lot of options I now navigate on foot and SUV with a single 14, and leaving the other eye clear, As far as thermal goes I always have a hand held with me and stop and scan with it periodically, seeing nothing then I move on until I need to scan again, My thermal gives me good distance most of the time, as this works well for me.


I do have the dual set up and do use it now and then just to do something different, but my go to is a single 14 helmet mounted. as far as shooting goes I have weapons dedicated to a trijicon MK2 thermal, in 6.5 Grendel. I also have a 6.8 set up with a CQBSS and a CNVD in front of that. I am partial to the NV set up and yes I do use both a laser and Ir Illuminator and it works great. No eye pieces on either as the pigs have yet to figure it out. If I were back in the Stan then the eye piece is necessary.

I have spent a lot of time and money getting to where I am and it has been fun, and I would do mit all over again if I was not happy with what I have.
 
I am not a scientist nor a medical doctor, so I'm not going to speak to the semantics of different "types" of "depth perception," however:

Under most circumstances, I would recommend keeping your NVDs, single or dual, focused to infinity. Range specific adjustments can make sense in some contexts, but for general purpose use, including social use, infinity is the better option for most people.

Dual aperture devices (e.g., a Hoplite or BC cap with a hole in the center) can be extremely useful tools, however they will significantly cut down on light collection, so it's something to keep in mind.

Part of the natural function of perceiving and navigating our environments that we do unconsciously is to build a "three dimensional map" of the world around us--viewing two similar but different images while using dual tubes, helps the brain do this, as the slight differences between the two images based is used and interpreted by the brain to "build" the map. Biocular devices trick your brain into thinking that it's seeing two different images, but it can't resolve depth because they are the same image, making you simultaneously more confident but less aware of your surroundings, making you relatively more likely to take a stumble, because your brain "thinks" it knows what's going on, when in reality, you're not getting the proper impression of depth.

With a monocular device, you're not getting nearly as much information as you would be with dual tubes--for every little bit of "extra" information you think you're getting from having one eye dark adapted, you're losing much more by not having the NV augmentation, if you're not, you probably didn't need to be wearing NVDs in the first place.

Once again, a lot of people come up with a lot of reasons that they think monoculars are "better," and some may genuinely prefer monoculars--but consider it this way: if you had to traverse an obstacle course at night with intermittent lights along the course, which would you perform better with? I would submit that almost any person with normal visual function would do far better with duals than with a monocular, despite the supposed "benefits" of using a monocular. The guys with the monoculars might be able to do it--but given the same level of training and experience, the guys with the duals would be able to do it faster and more confidently. The other benefits--peripheral vision, awareness of lighting conditions, and ability to use primary weapon sights/white light transitions, have already been addressed.

It's fine if using a monocular is more convenient to you because you're using it in conjunction with other technologies/equipment, and moving slowly over known terrain, and monoculars surely work, and the PVS-14 is a workhorse as thousands of Infantrymen can attest, but if you're talking about general purpose, I^2 pure use--duals are generally going to be better for movement and maneuver--one of the main purposes of using I^2 technologies.

All that being said, my personal preference is not to align my tubes so that I am seeing a single, perfectly round image, rather, I prefer a very very slightly "elongated" view. The FOV increase is likely negligible to the point of being a non-issue, however, this is important to get the proper IPD--the two tubes should be centered over your eyes, you shouldn't be forcing your eyes to look into the tubes to create a single "perfect circle" image, as whether you realize it or not, you're almost certainly crossing your eye's slightly, leading to increased eye strain over time.

Re: rubber eyecups--while there are some specific circumstances where they may be necessary, again, for general purpose social use, few if any experienced professional end-users actively use them, and using them is usually a conscious decision to do so. They are typically either removed, or at least rolled back, and again, minus some specific scenarios, if you've got your NVD close enough to your face to actually get a "seal" with the rubber eyecups, you're probably running your NVD too close to your face.

~Augee
 
Anything set to infinity (or close to it) can’t have stereoscopic depth benefits. Again, stereoscopic depth perception is a very short range phenomenon. Most agreed 10-15m was the range that is ends. One study I found suggests potentially out to 40m. But it won’t do anything at 100+ yards where an infinity focus is sharp and at ranges where it may matter, it will be too blurry to give any useful info on image offset. You have to focus close to get the benefit. If you don’t, it’s not the second tube that gives depth perception.
 
Are you saying that you can’t see clearly inside of 100 yards when you focus your NVD?

I’m not going to argue with what you’re saying you see, but focused to infinity, I have no problems seeing short range up to a few feet in front of me, and certainly well within 10-15m. Is it as sharp at all distances? No, but it's certainly clear enough to use the information for depth perception.

Moreover, I think you underestimate the eye/brain's ability to resolve even blurry images. While not a perfect example--I am quite nearsighted, but I can still resolve depth in autostereograms ("Magic Eye") images without my eyeglasses far beyond my ability to actually resolve the image with my uncorrected vision--meaning that even when the image presented to me is blurry beyond belief (when asked to read optometrists' eye charts without corrective lenses, my response is usually "dark gray smudge at the top, light gray smudge underneath"), even with complex shapes like used in many Magic Eyes, I can still resolve enough difference between what my left and right eyes are seeing to resolve the stereoscopic illusion of depth--and my uncorrected vision is orders of magnitude worse than my close vision when using NV goggles set to infinity focus.

P.S. I can do Magic Eyes while wearing dual tube NODs, too, though it usually requires some fiddling with the focus and/or moving back and forth physically. :geek:

~Augee