Night Vision Dual Band Vs Dual Tubes + COTI/Handheld

[Ironman8]

Didn’t want to derail any of the other threads touching on these subjects, so I’m hoping I can finally wade through all the options I’m weighing and avoid wasting a ton of money as I finally pull the trigger on the NV game.

First, this forum has been a great resource learning from some knowledgeable and very helpful guys. @WhereNow&How @TheHorta @The King @SkyScrapin and plenty of others, much thanks.

Reading through the threads it’s not entirely clear what the actual application is of the poster discussing it and if certain setups would fit my perceived needs. So here’s my perceived application:

Primary consideration is having a system that is night fighting oriented. This is just general preparedness, training classes, and legal activities only...I’ll leave it at that.

Secondary consideration is for hunting and general “navigation” in the woods/backcountry.

All that said, I’m coming around to the idea of having Bino NV but “Dual Band” is a new concept to me and I’m wondering which system would be best for the stated application(s):

1) PVS14 with Skeet/MH25 on a bridge

2) BNVD with COTI

3) BNVD with handheld thermal (which thermal would be recommended if not the MH25)?

 

[GBMaryland]

So... for practicle experience, you need to talk to TNVC or one of the folks above.

Cost wise, there is a firesale on the COTI right now. However, those are th PAS-29A versions, as opposed to the current good ones sold to the military and LE.

They work, somewhat well, and you get a decent composite image.

The advantage, you are not paying $15k for a SkeetIR-X, and another $4500 for a very good L3 Unfilmed or Intens WP system.

If COST is not a problem, that's one thing.

- Mod3B with L3 Unfilmed or HIGH FOM Intens (both hard to get at the moment)
- BNVD (same tubes)
- etc... etc...

If it IS:

- Elbit with high FOM BNVD
- China skeet with WP Elbit PVS-14 on a dual bridge of some sort

If money is REALLY not an issue... you can find some really nice stuff that the folks here can help you with. $20k+

If you can get an E-COTI, that would be pretty nice...

 

[Ironman8]

@GBMaryland yeah budget is definitely not unlimited. Looking for the best value with whatever I buy but I do agree with the “buy once” mentality.

I’m likely looking for thin film Elbit tubes if going with binos or L3 UF WP if going with a PVS14. The thermal part just depends on what fits the application best. And may need to be a purchase down the road.

 

[TheHorta]

A great “starter” setup is:

$3K — Elbit or L3 WP highspec PVS-14
$3K — Optics1 firesale COTI
$1K — Bump, Mount, TOR, SF Vampire, Counterweight.

For a lousy ~$7K something like this will fill your immediate needs and will last you a few years. Then, take your time, become a student, figure out exactly what you want, and be opportunistic with your purchases.

 

[Ironman8]

@TheHorta thanks, so reading in between the lines, the COTI would be more appropriate for my use? I’m considering just going all in with binos (BNVDs) if I can swing it.

I’ve got a helmet now and just need the IR laser/illum and NVG mount

 

[CoryT]

For fighting at night, you really, really want a dual tube system. Preferably, that dual tube system will allow you to articulate the individual pods. In an ideal world, that will include thermal, either as an overlay (COTI) or dual-band (thermal on one eye I2 on the other).

The COTI is the 'clean' solution to adding thermal, with the patrol and outline modes being most useful. It permits the use of the IR laser, which a pure thermal device cannot see.

More 'bang for the buck' can be achieved by using a thermal monocular for a dual band system. The IRay unit is great, but a bit on the fragile side and more-or-less single purpose. It really needs the PVS-14 eyepiece, bringing the actual price to $4.7k or so, but it's not very rugged. The Trijicon M300W is a fair jump in price, $7k, but provides quite a bit more utility and is FAR more rugged. With it, I have a handheld/headmount monocular, AND a weapon sight. Mine is an older version with both reticles and the clip-on mode, I'd try to find that version if I was buying another.

I use the Knights/RQE bridge, light, solid, adjustable and flips up either side as needed.

This will increase the system price by about $4K above The Horta's starter system listed above, dropping the COTI in favor of the M300W. If budget permits, I'd go that route.

 

[TheHorta]

Sure, binos are great, if you’re comfortable with the sticker shock.

In my personal case, I’d probaby opt for a single WP14 and the CoronaSkeet on a KAC bridge. The image and detection range are so much better than the 240px COTI that I’d make much more use of that combo.

 

[CoryT]

The hot ticket is of course the AN/PSQ-36. I've no idea how you would get one, and if you have to ask how much it's not in your budget. The demo unit I used is the cat's ass though.

 

[TheHorta]

The hot ticket is of course the AN/PSQ-36. I've no idea how you would get one, and if you have to ask how much it's not in your budget. The demo unit I used is the cat's ass though.

There’s even better now, with 640px thermal — ENVG-B with FWS-I capability.

 

[SkyScrapin]

I’m split on the practicality of most high end thermal and NV because I have options in my tool bag that allow me to be picky.

In a perfect world, a fused system is THE way to go, but the option on the commercial market aren’t many.

As far as the options go, you’re going to be hard pressed to find a more capable system than the -14/Skeet setup. Nothing will escape your sight and you can still use a laser or passive for shooting.

I would skip the COTI unless you’re a nut like many of us playing the gotta-catch-them-all game.

 

[PlinkIt]

Opinions are like other things...
And I'm 100% a Low speed & High drag type of guy that night hunts a little bit, but I think if my world goes sideways I have a "flexible" enough group of toys to be better prepared than most which I think is ultimately the position you are trying to get to?...

Flexibility in items gives you the ability to change up for the circumstances better I believe.

Now for flexibility I'd say the m300 @CoryT suggested above is a good choice since it can be helmet mounted, neck scanner, or a thermal scope... That's a good bit of flexibility, and you can purchase a magnifier if you want to make it a more powerful scanner. It allows you to use the pic rail to mount a laser for designation to others where something is. @wigwamitus has also made his into a handheld thermal rangefinder using the magnifier.

I use 2x pvs14s on a RQE bridge and I have a m300 patrol that I can swap out either 14 for and switch from dual band to dual 14s as the activity calls for it(target shooting & plinking = 2x14s / hunting = dual band / driving or boating = 2x14s)...
I can still throw the patrol around my neck if I like while driving to scan once in a while with the window down. I can go dual band and give one 14 to a partner. I can go dual 14s and mount the m300 to the rifle or shotgun as a scope... In all the above scenerios I have at least one 14 on my head so I can keep an ir laser on the rifle to shoot with as well

Definitely buy better stuff out the gate if you have the option... I've talked to very few people that didn't "upgrade" if they bought economy stuff in the beginning and they had the ability to do more... (Me being one of those people)

Now if I had more money I'd have the skeet already as it can be multipurpose and smaller than the patrol, but the patrol was my "budget" choice

Good luck

 

[NateSavannah]

Opinions are like other things...
And I'm 100% a Low speed & High drag type of guy that night hunts a little bit, but I think if my world goes sideways I have a "flexible" enough group of toys to be better prepared than most which I think is ultimately the position you are trying to get to?...

Flexibility in items gives you the ability to change up for the circumstances better I believe.

Now for flexibility I'd say the m300 @CoryT suggested above is a good choice since it can be helmet mounted, neck scanner, or a thermal scope... That's a good bit of flexibility, and you can purchase a magnifier if you want to make it a more powerful scanner. It allows you to use the pic rail to mount a laser for designation to others where something is. @wigwamitus has also made his into a handheld thermal rangefinder using the magnifier.

I use 2x pvs14s on a RQE bridge and I have a m300 patrol that I can swap out either 14 for and switch from dual band to dual 14s as the activity calls for it(target shooting & plinking = 2x14s / hunting = dual band / driving or boating = 2x14s)...
I can still throw the patrol around my neck if I like while driving to scan once in a while with the window down. I can go dual band and give one 14 to a partner. I can go dual 14s and mount the m300 to the rifle or shotgun as a scope... In all the above scenerios I have at least one 14 on my head so I can keep an ir laser on the rifle to shoot with as well

Definitely buy better stuff out the gate if you have the option... I've talked to very few people that didn't "upgrade" if they bought economy stuff in the beginning and they had the ability to do more... (Me being one of those people)

Now if I had more money I'd have the skeet already as it can be multipurpose and smaller than the patrol, but the patrol was my "budget" choice

Good luck

this game aint for the poors when the budget option comes in at $7k.

 

[Victor-TNVC]

this game aint for the poors when the budget option comes in at $7k.

7K?? That is the poors when you're talking about TheHorta! Lol

 

[WhereNow&How]

As far as the options go, you’re going to be hard pressed to find a more capable system than the -14/Skeet setup. Nothing will escape your sight and you can still use a laser or passive for shooting.

I would skip the COTI unless you’re a nut like many of us playing the gotta-catch-them-all game.

In an amped up dynamic scenario on a two way range, the COTI will likely outperform for 99% of the people versus a PVS 14/and bridged Head Mounted Thermal setup. Simply because it is not natural for the brain to be looking at basically 2 TV screens (for lack of a better analogy).

Yes the PVS 14 and bridged Thermal works great in low stress hunting/observation settings. When you gotta move fast and need depth perception and less stress on your brain, the COTI fused onto a dual NV setup will way outperform IMHO.

 

[PlinkIt]

this game aint for the poors when the budget option comes in at $7k.

Yea tell me about it...

Some guys here got more in night gear than I spent building my house!

We are not all on the same playing field here lol

 

[SkyScrapin]

In an amped up dynamic scenario on a two way range, the COTI will likely outperform for 99% of the people versus a PVS 14/and bridged Head Mounted Thermal setup. Simply because it is not natural for the brain to be looking at basically 2 TV screens (for lack of a better analogy).

Yes the PVS 14 and bridged Thermal works great in low stress hunting/observation settings. When you gotta move fast and need depth perception and less stress on your brain, the COTI fused onto a dual NV setup will way outperform IMHO.

wouldn’t disagree with any of this. My adversaries have four legs and don’t shoot back.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Yea tell me about it...

Some guys here got more in night gear than I spent building my house!

We are not all on the same playing field here lol

Yeah but always remember that old saying, fear the man with one gun. He probably knows how to use it real well.

It ain't the bow, it's the Indian.

 

[PlinkIt]

Yeah but always remember that old saying, fear the man with one gun. He probably knows how to use it real well.

It ain't the bow, it's the Indian.

View attachment 7378183

Oh I agree
Some of us around here like...
I got this new white phospher 1280 thermal overlay with arrow tracking...

Then there is the "handicapped" guy with just a 100 lumen flashlight duct taped to the bow going...

 

[WhereNow&How]

wouldn’t disagree with any of this. My adversaries have four legs and don’t shoot back.

I am with ya, bu...t what are we to do if Antifa shows up with nefarious intentions to do harm. Just Saying.

Its better to have and not need, than need and not have.

 

[TheHorta]

I am with ya, bu...t what are we to do if Antifa shows up with nefarious intentions to do harm. Just Saying.

Its better to have and not need, than need and not have.

I literally pray to GOD that this never happens. I’m not the average Keyboard Commando with dreams of Operating in my back yard. I’m not a life-taker. In fact, I dread the thought of having to do harm to another human being. Heck, I feel bad schwacking coyotes on my farm (which is why I don’t post photos of my kills, it makes me feel weird).

I’ll do it to protect those I love and care about, but I don’t know if I could ever sleep well again — regardless of whether they “deserved” it, or not.

Call me a pacifist, a pussy, or whatever but I’ll use everything I can to avoid a fight.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I literally pray to GOD that this never happens. I’m not the average Keyboard Commando with dreams of Operating in my back yard. I’m not a life-taker. In fact, I dread the thought of having to do harm to another human being. Heck, I feel bad schwacking coyotes on my farm (which is why I don’t post photos of my kills, it makes me feel weird).

I’ll do it to protect those I love and care about, but I don’t know if I could ever sleep well again — regardless of whether they “deserved” it, or not.

Call me a pacifist, a pussy, or whatever but I’ll use everything I can to avoid a fight.

I am with you. If that day ever comes things done turned to real sh^t. However, real fighters don't fight because of what they hate. They fight to protect what they love. Doing everything you can to avoid fighting is also a sign of being a true civilized person as fighting always comes with a cost no matter winner or loser.

However, evil is evil anyway you cut it and will show you no quarter, so understanding that and being prepared to triumph over that is just all part of life. Always has been, always will be.

 

[NHPiper]

@GBMaryland where did you see COTI's on sale? Or were you just saying keep a look out?

 

[PlinkIt]

@NHPiper I think he was referring to the lot that Europtic bought out

 

[NHPiper]

@NHPiper I think he was referring to the lot that Europtic bought out

I'm not super familiar with the COTI history, just on my bucket list to get after playing with one. I thought L3 had the contract or submissions, and the EuroOptics are Vectronixs. Same thing?

 

[WhereNow&How]

I'm not super familiar with the COTI history, just on my bucket list to get after playing with one. I thought L3 had the contract or submissions, and the EuroOptics are Vectronixs. Same thing?

No, L3 lost out on that contract. Vectronix is a European Company that's US subsidiary is Safran Optics 1.

Their COTI design won the DOD contract to furnish COTI's

COTI was suppossedly designed specifically for door kickers in dynamic Urban environments. It works very well out in the deep dark forests as well.

 

[Ironman8]

Thanks for the discussion guys, lots of good posts and a lot to digest and make a decision.

 

[jeffl838]

I'd weigh it on how/where you're going to be fighting/hunting, but the only way i'd do skeet/pvs14 is if you won't be doing any running/maneuvering.

Your last two options, coti vs mh25 i'd decide based on whether you want some sort of thermal overlay hands free or a good thermal that requires hands. They fill almost two different roles with just a little overlap in the fact that they are thermal.

I'd go coti if you're gonna be going thru thick-ish terrain or doing raids. Even slightly thick terrain it's nice because you can be walking through a field and oh what do you know there's a rabbit or person ten feet from you that you wouldn't have seen otherwise.

I'd go with a MH25 otherwise (hunting/fighting out of fixed positions)

Another option is to go 2 x pvs 14 (2.5k each), 1 x mh25, and 1 x coti and have the best of 3 worlds, but 2 x 14 is pretty heavy compared to any other option.

 

[WhereNow&How]

I'd weigh it on how/where you're going to be fighting/hunting, but the only way i'd do skeet/pvs14 is if you won't be doing any running/maneuvering.

Your last two options, coti vs mh25 i'd decide based on whether you want some sort of thermal overlay hands free or a good thermal that requires hands. They fill almost two different roles with just a little overlap in the fact that they are thermal.

I'd go coti if you're gonna be going thru thick-ish terrain or doing raids. Even slightly thick terrain it's nice because you can be walking through a field and oh what do you know there's a rabbit or person ten feet from you that you wouldn't have seen otherwise.

I'd go with a MH25 otherwise (hunting/fighting out of fixed positions)

Another option is to go 2 x pvs 14 (2.5k each), 1 x mh25, and 1 x coti and have the best of 3 worlds, but 2 x 14 is pretty heavy compared to any other option.

I figured you would weigh in sooner or later. You probably got lots of time in the real world with COTI on NV when it counts for real.

Thanks for your input. Most valuable.

 

[Ironman8]

Thanks @jeffl838 I had a conversation via PM that was very similar to what you outlined. I was starting to discount the COTI based on YouTube videos I was able to find, and the fact that you can’t use it unless attached to a helmet worn NVD. It didn’t impress me that much by watching the vids, but it seems that it performs better in person.

What I’ll likely do is start with a 14+COTI, then save up for either a 2nd 14 or just go for a BNVD and thermal handheld in the future. That way I have options and backups...Way more than I wanted to spend in other words

 

[jeffl838]

Don't get me wrong the COTI totally sucks but it'll let you know something is out there, even if it's well camouflaged. In like 3 years there's gonna be a super COTI that doesn't suck, I'm sure - but for now the COTI is all we've got. EDIT: I just want to re-emphasize that you'll be totally disappointed with the image of the COTI, but keep in mind the point isn't to resolve any detail, it's to detect something that you otherwise wouldn't.

If you can swing it, I think you'd be better off going with a set of bino's first and a shitty handheld 1k mono because bridged 14's are really really heavy compared to other binos. Dual 14's are 100% super usable with a bump/carbon but since you mentioned fighting, if you plan on wearing a ballistic helmet, dual 14's might eat your lunch.

Speaking of binos, another thing to consider is a set of thermal bino's. I've been really interested in pulsar's accolade 2 LRF. I think they're going to be around 5.5k? It's 1k more than an MH25 but if you can deal with the size/weight, I plan on getting a set and storing them in a bino harness.

As a thermal suite, a coti, an MH25, and the accolade 2 (assuming they don't suck) would be pretty intense. A suite like that would cover every base except for something to shoot with. There aren't any good affordable clip ons but as standalone rifle scopes, the trijicons have good image quality (I think the 60mm is on par with a UTC and a 4-16 day scope) but garbage reticles. I've heard the halo's have the same image quality with better reticles, but they don't make a 60mm.

 

[jeffl838]

I figured you would weigh in sooner or later. You probably got lots of time in the real world with COTI on NV when it counts for real.

Thanks for your input. Most valuable.

thanks for the kind words, likewise to y'all

 

[Ironman8]

@jeffl838 I think at this point, I'm going to have to choose between a 14+COTI OR just a BNVD. If things are looking crazier and crazier by the end of the year, then I'll do what I need to do to get the BNVD in my hands...and maybe a handheld/helmet mounted thermal if I can swing it. There may not be an opportunity to get a COTI by that point either.

RE: Helmet - I've got a Revision Viper P4 High Cut that's reasonable on weight at ~2.5#. I don't have experience with dual 14's or binos for that matter, and the weight is somewhat a consideration but I am pretty fit (squat 400ish, deadlift upper 400's and run 8:00 or better miles - just an example)...so I'm not sure if it would be doable or not. That said, adding a COTI is another 5-6 ounces to consider. I'll definitely be adding a counterweight and looking at helmet mounted ear pro, so that should help stability.

Thanks for your advice brother.

 

[WhereNow&How]

@Ironman8 from the sounds of it I doubt you would have much trouble with a set of Dual 14's with a COTI. I'm probably a lot older than you and can't do near that on weight or running and I routinely have pulled 10 sometimes 12 hours under a set of Dual 14's with COTI walking around in rough terrain hog hunting.

The two secrets are 4D pads in your helmet and proper counterweight. Once that is accomplished it is amazing how comfortable even "that heavy" of a system becomes. If I put on a single 14 and COTI, I feel like I aint got nothing on.

Actually a set of Dual 14's on a Mod Armory Lightweight Bridge comes in about the same weight as the older coveted standard issue bino PVS 15's do that were used for a long time.

I believe that majority of guys that complain about headach's, weight and such is because they don't have the proper 4D pads, counterweight and H-Nape setup on their helmets IMHO. Any kind of ratchet type suspension in a helmet always give me a headache. Not so with the H-Nape chinstrap.

 

[jeffl838]

yeah i'm torn about the coti sale right now too. i really want one, but it's 3k for something that i think will experience leap-ahead development within the next 2 years

something that sucks about dual 14's vs bnvd's is not being able to run it comfortably on a crye skull cap. which may or may not be an issue for you. it's not a deal breaker for me (i have dual 14's), but it's worth noting. something in the weight range of 31's with a counterweight on the skull cap is completely fine

2.5 lbs is pretty hefty, carbon/bump helmets are like .7 lbs or something like that. it's not so much about fitness, it's just the fact that it's heavier than it needs to be

 

[WhereNow&How]

@jeffl838 I actually do wear a set of Dual 14's with COTI on a Crye Nightcap. I don't do it a lot because I usually just wear a helmet. Now I do have a fair amount of counterweight back there, but I added a piece (sewed on) of velcro to the Crye Counterweight Pouch such that I am able to position it much lower down the back of my head versus the higher position typically used on the Crye. Exploiting Gravity so to speak. I also have a Streamlight Sidewinder 2 sewn into the side of the Nightcap such that I don't have to use my onboard Illuminators in really dark places.

I have slung a lot of loads on pack mules using Decker Pack saddles and balancing pack loads on live mules and horses is critical to success. So I guess that helps me figure out how to "sling" a Nightcap or Helmet. LOL

 

[jeffl838]

dude when i tried it, if i didn't have the chin strap sucked in all the way and with like 2 lbs in the counter weight pouch, it was super floppy and at the point of having 2lbs in the counter weight pouch it wasn't a cargo pocket item anymore

good call on lowering where the weight pouch is though, i will revisit and give that a shot

 

[Ironman8]

yeah i'm torn about the coti sale right now too. i really want one, but it's 3k for something that i think will experience leap-ahead development within the next 2 years

something that sucks about dual 14's vs bnvd's is not being able to run it comfortably on a crye skull cap. which may or may not be an issue for you. it's not a deal breaker for me (i have dual 14's), but it's worth noting. something in the weight range of 31's with a counterweight on the skull cap is completely fine

2.5 lbs is pretty hefty, carbon/bump helmets are like .7 lbs or something like that. it's not so much about fitness, it's just the fact that it's heavier than it needs to be

2.5 lbs is the whole system weight (shell, pads, suspension, rails, etc.). The .7lbs on a bump/carbon is referring to just the shell. It will end up at least 1.5 lbs once you add all the above.

Personally I see the Crye skull cap as something I would use just messing around in the woods or possibly hunting where a ballistic helmet isn’t needed. I’d try it with a dual setup, but would probably be fine (I think) just running a 14 on it.

 

[Ironman8]

@Ironman8 from the sounds of it I doubt you would have much trouble with a set of Dual 14's with a COTI. I'm probably a lot older than you and can't do near that on weight or running and I routinely have pulled 10 sometimes 12 hours under a set of Dual 14's with COTI walking around in rough terrain hog hunting.

The two secrets are 4D pads in your helmet and proper counterweight. Once that is accomplished it is amazing how comfortable even "that heavy" of a system becomes. If I put on a single 14 and COTI, I feel like I aint got nothing on.

Actually a set of Dual 14's on a Mod Armory Lightweight Bridge comes in about the same weight as the older coveted standard issue bino PVS 15's do that were used for a long time.

I believe that majority of guys that complain about headach's, weight and such is because they don't have the proper 4D pads, counterweight and H-Nape setup on their helmets IMHO. Any kind of ratchet type suspension in a helmet always give me a headache. Not so with the H-Nape chinstrap.

Thanks, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the COTI today and working on the 14. Once I get both in hand, and some time with them, I’ll make a decision on a 2nd 14 or just save a little more for a BNVD as my main rig.

 

[WhereNow&How]

The Crye Nightcap excels where you need a low profile system to carry while traveling etc.

Run lean and mean with a Nightcap, Single 14 and COTI. With a little practice a man can get pretty effective with a simple system like this.

You can have all that packed in basically a large shaving kit.

Pair that with a Pistol with IR Point on it and you can make do pretty- goody.

 

[WhereNow&How]

Thanks, I went ahead and pulled the trigger on the COTI today and working on the 14. Once I get both in hand, and some time with them, I’ll make a decision on a 2nd 14 or just save a little more for a BNVD as my main rig.

Congrats. You are well on the way to "owning the night" as the saying goes.

 

[Ironman8]

The Crye Nightcap excels where you need a low profile system to carry while traveling etc.

Run lean and mean with a Nightcap, Single 14 and COTI. With a little practice a man can get pretty effective with a simple system like this.

You can have all that packed in basically a large shaving kit.

Pair that with a Pistol with IR Point on it and you can make do pretty- goody.

I was gonna mention that as a travel kit and for a “get home bag”, but didn’t wanna get any strange looks

 

[WhereNow&How]

I was gonna mention that as a travel kit and for a “get home bag”, but didn’t wanna get any strange looks

LOL. Yeah I have gone with other people in their vehicle for some long distance couple of day business trips and laughed to myself if they knew what I had in my little carry bag that was just a few feet from them. LOL

 

[Ironman8]

LOL. Yeah I have gone with other people in their vehicle for some long distance couple of day business trips and laughed to myself if they knew what I had in my little carry bag that was just a few feet from them. LOL

Lol same here...much less what I carry on me...if they only knew!