Dummy starting to reload

[Near miss]

Hello.

I am starting to reload for 223 because the amount I shoot is a lot and I would like to shoot way more.
I did some calculations and I will not save enough money by reloading bulk ammo in a single stage but precision ammo will be a lot cheaper, by 40 to 50% and it enough to justify the time.

I shoot them out of 16" MR 223 and I expect to get near or less than moa, the factory match ammo (SB 77gr) is around 0.7 and 0.8 moa. So hopefully, I can even beat that, but I think I really need to play more with my scatt to get below that number..

Materials:
Being in Finland I will probably use VV540 and 77gr scenars. I have gotten some help and I have a few thousand pieces of once fired Sako brass. There 2 batches of those btw, separated by different color of primers used. They have clear weight difference so I will have to figure them out and probably standardize to one batch.

Press and tools:
I am planning on buying the Hornady Lock and Load classic kit as it has quite good variety of reloading gadgets and it is quite hard to find those separately. I do not have a trimmer but I was suggested to just throw the too long cases to a bag and once (if ever) I run out of cases or the bag gets big enough, get a trimmer and deal with them.

I also thought that once I find a good load I will try to make some in big numbers in the Dillon 750 my shooting club owns but I have no clue what parts are needed to run it for 223. The club also has a tumbler that can fit up to maybe few hundred cases at a time.

Dies:
I was suggested to buy forster ultra die but since it costs as much from brownells as the redding I can get locally faster I thought of buying the Redding National Match die set.

Question is, do you find anything to critize about the plan or parts above?

I have no clue how tight ES will I get with each method, electronic scale, powder thrower or beam scale. I have Frankford Arsenal and the Hornady electronic scale and I know the beam scale is the best but it is also slow, I am thinking of buying used RCBS 505 but is it really needed? Or rather, what SD difference can I expect against an electronic scale? I looked on hit probability calculator and 30fps SD is good enough for me, I hope to get better SD, 15ish for 500m and out but 30 is good out to 300m.

I figure the Hornady powder dispenser might be a bit tricky to use for precision loads? I read it should be cleaned of oil and polished for best results. I like to shoot long range, 500m to 700m typically, out to 1km (though I rarely shoot the 1km target because it is freaking hard) few times a year so should I load the closer range load time efficiently and the load for shooting farther with more time spent with the scale?

I have understood the powder throw is set to few tenths below wanted weight and then the rest is added manually. Can you give me some kind of estimation, is the thrower good for 30fps, electronic for 20 and beam for 10?

 

[GreenCanoe]

Your choice of dies will be fine. I don't think there's too many people that will raise their nose to a set of Redding national match dies.
Either a beam or an electronic scale can serve you well. But the thing to be careful of with electric scales at least is that you need to be cognizant of scale drift. Almost all scales drift (some more than others) so you just have to make sure that they do return to zero and they don't throw off your charge weight. Usually it's pretty straightforward process, and yes they are faster than beam scales, but I often found them just too sensitive to be worth the possible trouble. I use a beam scale, but since I have a single stage setup, I am already dedicating some amount of time to reloading whenever I decide I'm going to actually reload so it doesn't bother me too much if I invest a little bit more time in making sure that my powder change is as accurate as I can possibly make it. A single tenth of a grain can have a significant effect when you're looking at extreme spreads, or standard deviations.

 

[Near miss]

I also have very bad luck finding 77gr scenars or sierras.. I guess they are coming go stock soon but I found 70gr Berger VLDs and this very exciting thread:

70gr Berger VLD instead of 75/77gr HPBT?

Does anyone load the Berger 70gr VLD? I'm considering loading it instead of my normal 75gr H or 77gr SMK load. Rationale: same BC, but possible to get them moving ~150fps faster than the 75/77, and still mag length loaded. This is for a precision AR load for 600 to 800yd steel targets. I...

www.snipershide.com

Should I buy those? On estimate I would be reaching 1mil higher at 700, 2mil at 1k with minor (but very important) windage reduction of 0.2mil at 700 in 10mph.

Their price is quite competitive, with berger being top-noth bullet manufacturer.

 

[MarkyMark007]

go with 1 base powder like N140, not N540.
if you will shoot a lot, than maybe buy turret press, if not progress.
if you have a wide node, than maybe best powder thrower will be also good option, and you won't need electronic dispenser.

 

[Near miss]

go with 1 base powder like N140, not N540.
if you will shoot a lot, than maybe buy turret press, if not progress.
if you have a wide node, than maybe best powder thrower will be also good option, and you won't need electronic dispenser.

Why 1 base powder? I have understood the 2base have less temp sensitivity and bit more speed. Although I can wrestle temp sensitivity with my kestrel and recorded temp table, it still helps.

I hope I can get the dillon running 223s but I have no knowledge of how to do it yet. Watching videos about it without ever having used one has not been very helpful. Basically I need part codes and I will probably learn how it works using the current set up for 9mm.

The node point is good, I intend to find an OCW load so with luck I may have it easy? Although bad SD still ruins long range precision, it will print to the same group.

 

[GreenCanoe]

No, single base powders have less temp sensitivity and generally less MV. But with double based powders to achieve a safe MV in all temperatures you often have to download them enough that you'll get the same MV as a single base.

 

[Near miss]

No, single base powders have less temp sensitivity and generally less MV. But with double based powders to achieve a safe MV in all temperatures you often have to download them enough that you'll get the same MV as a single base.

Thank you, another good point.

 

[GreenCanoe]

No, single base powders have less temp sensitivity and generally less MV. But with double based powders to achieve a safe MV in all temperatures you often have to download them enough that you'll get the same MV as a single base.

 

[MarkyMark007]

Why 1 base powder? I have understood the 2base have less temp sensitivity and bit more speed.

Although bad SD still ruins long range precision, it will print to the same group.

N540 is too hot and too stupid. If you want 2 base, get Reload Swiss 52. we were all at your stage, and move away from hot powders...

your gun in not for long range. so dont worry about SD for low BC 77gr lapua from your 16'' barrel... have fun and dont worry about things, which are not for your application.

 

[Near miss]

N540 is too hot and too stupid. If you want 2 base, get Reload Swiss 52. we were all at your stage, and move away from hot powders...

your gun in not for long range. so dont worry about SD for low BC 77gr lapua from your 16'' barrel... have fun and dont worry about things, which are not for your application.

It indeed is quite vain. But I do enjoy doing excellent work with 223 at long range, similar to 22LR at long range. Still remember how getting multiple hits with rapid fire at 700m on a 2/3 ipsc in 6-12mph wind was really cool.

And now I can use the bullets I want, or at lest the good stuff I can find. I want to gain at least some MV compared to factory and I am pretty happy.

 

[MarkyMark007]

77gr are probably very accurate (old design) and cheap, but have quite low BC. If you can go higher for 80gr+ (or maybe for 75gr or even 69gr), you can maybe get better balistic out of it...

 

[Near miss]

77gr are probably very accurate (old design) and cheap, but have quite low BC. If you can go higher for 80gr+ (or maybe for 75gr or even 69gr), you can maybe get better balistic out of it...

I want to stay in mag length.
I could and maybe will shoot some of those just for the fun of trying it out but the competitions really do not give the possibility of single loading. And it is not nice during winter to fumble with them anyways.

Considering how big of a difference the 77gr does against 55gr, 223 is like another caliber with it and I am quite happy with that fact alone.

 

[MarkyMark007]

'mag length' is very wide concept.
MDT TAC polimer aics magazine 'mag length' for 223REM is 2.550' ! this suits 85.5gr berger very well !
probably not for your gun but just a thought.

 

[huntnh]

Don’t forget to get a crimp die Lee makes a good one for cheep money

 

[GreenCanoe]

Don’t forget to get a crimp die Lee makes a good one for cheep money

I do love that Lee taper crimp...

 

[Near miss]

'mag length' is very wide concept.
MDT TAC polimer aics magazine 'mag length' for 223REM is 2.550' ! this suits 85.5gr berger very well !
probably not for your gun but just a thought.

Indeed, I have mainly Pmags and have "standardized" to them but I have few other mags, like HK steel mag that also allows very long loads. Unfortunately I have always read only negative reviews about seating long bullets with AR mags so I really thought to let go of the idea. I am very interested in fitting a 85gr, it might not be the optimal but fun to see how it goes though, when I have the basics in control. Too bad the barrel is only 16" but it is a relief when I actually have to move and run with it.

Don’t forget to get a crimp die Lee makes a good one for cheep money

I think the national match set includes one, at least the description lists one. I hope it gets the job done. But I read somewhere that crimp is not needed always? What is your experience in this matter?

 

[GreenCanoe]

Personally, I don't crimp anything unless it's going in a gas gun. If it is, then it gets a little crimp - never a lot. A little crimp goes a long way.

 

[Near miss]

Hey, I thought of letting you know I am still alive and have my eyesight left too.

After testing that the factory ammo I used to shoot also moves plenty when loaded I decided to not crimp. I load the rounds to inner wall of pmag and so far I have not had problems. I shall see, possibly problems arise when the cases get shot more and neck tension changes? I tested with the neck tension alone and average movement is around 0,011" upon chambering. It seems that to reach the lands I would have to chamber the same round approximately 6 times. Before that it becomes non-magazine fit.

At the moment my reloads hold 0.46" mean radius on average, and my latest charge / ocw test (I try to make ocw compliant data as I test my charges) I accomplished to put 12 rounds of Scenar 69s between 24,8 to 25,3gr of N140 within 1moa. So it seems I found a very wide node! And this was shot with the bipod gliding on ice.

-What do you think of adjusting the resizing die higher, will it make the case seat better to the chamber and improve precision? I tested and the difference between having a problem with chambering a case (just the case) and the die being tight to the press was around 1/4 of a turn. I turned the die around halfway of that, so quite far from being too tight with the chamber but not too loose either.

-How much variation should I expect from the powder thrower? I weighted 44 charges and gave an extreme spread of 1.54 grains. 10 charges varied more than 1% outside the median charge.

Does polishing it help any?

-Do magnum primers I chose to use maybe alter the normal primer pressure signs? I still have not noticed any pressure signs at 25.5gr of N140 with the 70gr bergers or 25.3gr with scenar 69s. Of course I am also looking for changes in brass.
My shooting conditions have so far been around 30F but in the summer it will be near 100F at max, how many grains would you recommend to lower once I reach pressure signs?

 

[MarkyMark007]

probably too much questions...

headspace maybe is not a problem, if only you have it the same from case to case.

and for powder charge you should see, what group you have with the best load (not crimp, powder accuratly measured...), and than load for semi auto with crimp, powder thrower and see what causes the group to open up too much for your taste, and what does not infest your groups too much... imho...
just reload for the best (and single feed), and than see what you can expect from this rifle and what is ok for your taste.

with hard primers like BR4 it is hard to see pressure signs, because they are so tough and I even couldnt pierced them with over load because primer pocket streched... almost every other primers can be pierced, but no BR4 in my rifle...

 

[Near miss]

probably too much questions...

headspace maybe is not a problem, if only you have it the same from case to case.

and for powder charge you should see, what group you have with the best load (not crimp, powder accuratly measured...), and than load for semi auto with crimp, powder thrower and see what causes the group to open up too much for your taste, and what does not infest your groups too much... imho...
just reload for the best (and single feed), and than see what you can expect from this rifle and what is ok for your taste.

with hard primers like BR4 it is hard to see pressure signs, because they are so tough and I even couldnt pierced them with over load because primer pocket streched... almost every other primers can be pierced, but no BR4 in my rifle...

My charge tests have been loaded kernel by kernel. But I have done few tests where I test what kind of groups I get with the thrower only.

I have been mag feeding since I thought that if I intend to go with the neck tension only I should try if I get problems. And mostly because single feeding an AR when it is sub 40, it rains snow or water, and you work in the dark with a head light in hurry before the range is closed at 20:00 (noone other is there but noise rules forbids shooting after it) is REALLY tedious. I hope the be able to do more load testing on weekends.

I tried crimping and I crimped and chambered one round 18 or 19 times, with few others 5-10 times with varying force and they still grouped submoa with 0,41" mean radius, all 5+5 (tested also HK vs PMAG seating depth) did 1.1moa group. So it seems after some more testing I will be crimping them if I see a need for it.

Good to know that about the primers, that is exactly the pitfall I was thinking of. But I should however be able to see the peak pressure in the brass head all the same, so I will focus more on it.

Here is my reloading info/tests gathered here:

Reloading diary_old.xlsx

1drv.ms

 

[Near miss]

What about short vs long cases?
What kind of accuracy behaviour should I expect?

I have so far shot 1.751-1.754 cases.
Last night I loaded 15 rounds with 1.757 to 1.759 long cases. I intend to shoot them into 2x5 groups and collate them. I hope they will group well.

I indeed do not have a trimmer yet, but I figure that if I shoot high volumes, I should load high volumes. And sub moa seems like very easy to reach, so why make things too complicated / waste time on tasks that do not matter.

So have you conducted similar tests and what kind of results have you seen?

 

[MarkyMark007]

what i see from your data, you went from min to max with scenar and berger. and at the same OAL.

try to measure length at OGIVE (if you are not ding it right now).

it would be good to find classic node in your loads (to go up and down and up once again with your loads in 0.3gr increment) and measure velocity and measure point of impact, to see where you have nod.

and than when you have nod, or you have smallest ES/SD of your load, than shorten your OAL (in maybe 0,005'' increment) at this powder charge to find the best group (if you wont be happy with group from groups where did you look for nodes).

right now you just went from min to max with your load. if you find good groups, than ok. if not, do like i write.

 

[MarkyMark007]

cases doens't matter, just trim them to same lenght and make FL. you dont need all this stuf. you over complicate things, like you want to won BR championship.

 

[Near miss]

what i see from your data, you went from min to max with scenar and berger. and at the same OAL.

try to measure length at OGIVE (if you are not ding it right now).

it would be good to find classic node in your loads (to go up and down and up once again with your loads in 0.3gr increment) and measure velocity and measure point of impact, to see where you have nod.

and than when you have nod, or you have smallest ES/SD of your load, than shorten your OAL (in maybe 0,005'' increment) at this powder charge to find the best group (if you wont be happy with group from groups where did you look for nodes).

right now you just went from min to max with your load. if you find good groups, than ok. if not, do like i write.

I indeed went. The thing is on the next trip I just clamped on my scope while slinging the rifle and the scope was not pushed forward and it resulted in POI difference of 1"
I have all the groups now in electric form but unfortunately I cannot track the POI movements between range visits. However I still have not picked up the 77gr bullets, these have been just a warm up / process check.

cases doens't matter, just trim them to same lenght and make FL. you dont need all this stuf. you over complicate things, like you want to won BR championship.

The reason I do the test is I want to trim as few as I can, as rarely as I can. But if the long cases compromise the whole lot (1800+ cases ready now) by making flyers, I want to eliminate them.