Durable do-all .308 semi auto - which one to get?

[762libertarian]

I'm a novice when it comes to modern semi auto rifles. Please bear with me.

I've an old m1a that I use for hog hunting at night. It's kind of a handful to access the buttons on the digital nv scope while standing up on my feet. I imagine a modern layout with a pistol grip, a shorter overall length and perhaps slightly lower weight would help. Especially since I'm looking to get a suppressor on the rifle.

All in all I'm looking to get a new semi auto .308 (or 6,5 creedmoor - doesn't really matter) for hunting, but I'm not really finding a rifle that I feel fit my needs.

I'm in Europe, which means it's an absolute horror show to send rifles back and forth to the US for warranty repairs. The gun must run.

- warranty is no substitute for durability
- must have an 18" barrel or longer (legal)
- must be under 8,5 lbs
- must have 2 MOA accuracy with quality ammo
- must have a good solid way to mount optics, preferrably picatinny
- must be suppressor compatible
- ergonomics: must have an easy to operate safety, ambi is tolerated but not preferred.

What options do I have?

-If the SFAR would have a great reputation and track record, it would win.

-A SCAR 17s would fit the bill perfectly with a replacement 18" barrel, but the barrel alone is as much as most of the competing options.

-Most AR 308's are unknown to me. The DD5 seems great but ambi controls is really not what I'm looking for. To me those are just an extra thing to go jam up in the mud. We can get Aero precision M5E1 rifles here but I can't find the weight for the 18" listed anywhere. The more expensive AR's in 308 are generally 16" or very heavy SASS type rifles.

- I've actually warmed up to the idea of a PTR-91. Except for weight, it checks all boxes.

- I could get an M1a scout squad and trick it out with a nice pic rail mount and a schuster gas plug. But that's kind of an underwhelming option considering where I started out.

 

[Westcoast308]

A JP Enterprises or a Larue Tactical AR will fit your needs. Not the cheapest but go to war reliability and incredibly accurate. I’ve shot several 1/2 to 5/8” 5 shot groups at 100yrds with a friend’s JP using 168gr gold metal match. The the fit and finish with an exceptionally well designed system on both rifles. The only thing I would do to a Larue would be add a JP silent capture spring. I’m sure a Daniel Defense would fit the needs to but I have personally never shot one. For a non AR recommendations a (my favorite)Sig SG751 or the Galil Ace .308 is a very well built billet receiver AK. There are aftermarket parts to tune them now too. I’m sure it will hit your accuracy requirement no problem. For a cheaper down and dirty solution a .308 Zastava AK will get the job done and can be customized to suit. Since you’re in Europe maybe you can get one of those new trick FB Radom .308’s. FB AK’s have the finest machining I’ve seen and I’m sure their new designs are no different. The PTR 91 hits you like sledgehammer and the one I shot didn’t seem all that accurate to me plus it just felt clunky by design. A quality AK with a polished action and a nice aftermarket trigger has a great feel and will eat any ammo. My buddies Saiga .308 runs and runs. If available a Vepr .308 would awesome too. My 7.62x39mm Vepr converts AK haters all the time with its accuracy and smoothness.
Cheers

 

[Bobby Ball]

Hk MR 556? Could just be me vocalizing my own wishes. Does kind of tick a lot of those boxes though. And maybe most importantly, already on your side of the pond.

 

[MK20]

Haenel made some type of sweet AR10 a while back I think. I would look at that.

 

[WindstormSCR]

given your european situation, I think the best answer anyone can give you is a SCAR 20S in either .308 or 6.5

20" barrel out of the box, you don't care about warranty so mounting a suppressor would be no issue, and it has a stellar reputation for reliability in all conditions, and there are some aftermarket options to tame the recoil.

downsides: Obviously Price; The scar magazine does restrict the length of ammunition used, so my suggestion would be to go with 6.5CM where that is less of an issue, and will give you better accuracy and terminal performance via retained velocity anyway; finally you need to be very careful in optics selection, as the recoil has a tendency to destroy low-quality optics (I've seen a scar 17s eat three optics personally)

However, with the correct selections, you have a rifle that I would absolutely trust my life to, and will run even in the harshest conditions.

brownells europe and euro optic I believe also import some of the common scar accessories that people like, such as the KDG rails.

 

[MK20]

The 20S is indeed fantastic but it is a bit heavy. Stupidly reliable and very accurate. The 20 does not eat optics like the 17 does.

 

[762libertarian]

What's causing the optics issue on the 17S anyway? Does it go away if you run it suppressed and dial down the gas? Or if you bolt a bunch of weight to the gun?

The 20S looks amazing but with that weight I night as well get something else for half the price. Getting a replacement 18" barrel for the 17S is also an option.

Both the Haenel and the HK rifles are on par with an M1a on weight.

At the moment I'm inclined to just take the bet on the SFAR, but I'll probably change my mind ten more times before I manage to make a decision. With a 20 inch barrel and a suppressor I think it would run pretty smooth, but I imagine it would feel very delicate compared to, say, a ptr-91.

 

[MK20]

What's causing the optics issue on the 17S anyway? Does it go away if you run it suppressed and dial down the gas? Or if you bolt a bunch of weight to the gun?

The 20S looks amazing but with that weight I night as well get something else for half the price. Getting a replacement 18" barrel for the 17S is also an option.

Both the Haenel and the HK rifles are on par with an M1a on weight.

At the moment I'm inclined to just take the bet on the SFAR, but I'll probably change my mind ten more times before I manage to make a decision. With a 20 inch barrel and a suppressor I think it would run pretty smooth, but I imagine it would feel very delicate compared to, say, a ptr-91.

Do not bet on the SFAR. There have been a string of problems.

Honestly, there is no free lunch. You want to shoot a full size rifle cartridge you have to pay the price.

 

[crc1028]

Honeslty, most modern higher end semiautos are comparable. More than anything, the rifles highlight shooter weaknesses. If your fundamentals are solid, you will be pleased with a myriad of rifles with good glass and ammo.

That being said, treat yourself and build a JP. You will never want for anything gas gun related again. It's a hard improvement over anything I've shot in my military or civilian career (though, my issued m110 is a durable horse). Just make sure you have a quality source of ammo where you are when deciding your caliber.

Cheers,

 

[WindstormSCR]

What's causing the optics issue on the 17S anyway? Does it go away if you run it suppressed and dial down the gas? Or if you bolt a bunch of weight to the gun?

The 20S looks amazing but with that weight I night as well get something else for half the price. Getting a replacement 18" barrel for the 17S is also an option.

Both the Haenel and the HK rifles are on par with an M1a on weight.

At the moment I'm inclined to just take the bet on the SFAR, but I'll probably change my mind ten more times before I manage to make a decision. With a 20 inch barrel and a suppressor I think it would run pretty smooth, but I imagine it would feel very delicate compared to, say, a ptr-91.

the reason the SCAR eats optics is because the main part of the gun is light, and all the mass is in the carrier. coupled with a not so great buffer stop in factory configuration and the recoil imparted to the optics when the carrier hits end of travel is significant. its an easy thing to fix with a simple aftermarket parts swap.

The primary reason for me suggesting the 20S over anything else is it's pretty much the last gun I would expect to need warranty work, and as has been shown in adverse conditions testing, keeps going no matter how much crap you throw at it. Secondary reason is that FN has a good and deserved reputation for accuracy out of the box on that platform.

 

[MK20]

The 20S has indeed earned its reputation for reliability and accuracy.

 

[xxflyingturtlexx]

the reason the SCAR eats optics is because the main part of the gun is light, and all the mass is in the carrier. coupled with a not so great buffer stop in factory configuration and the recoil imparted to the optics when the carrier hits end of travel is significant. its an easy thing to fix with a simple aftermarket parts swap.

The primary reason for me suggesting the 20S over anything else is it's pretty much the last gun I would expect to need warranty work, and as has been shown in adverse conditions testing, keeps going no matter how much crap you throw at it. Secondary reason is that FN has a good and deserved reputation for accuracy out of the box on that platform.

Well that was in 2004; most optics manufacturers use scars for test bed for durability today. Even if you check primary arms optics they mention “scar tested” in descriptions.

That is a 20 y/o thing of past.

 

[JimmyT]

I have a DD5 in 6.5 creedmoor with an 18” barrel. I would buy another one (my 3rd) with absolute confidence. It holds its own with more expensive rifles and is easy to shoot well wot a Mark 5 scope on top.

 

[TheOE800]

In Europe I would buy a gun of European manufacture or a DD out of that list.

 

[MK20]

I would look at the CZ Bren if that is available in your area.

 

[BravoSector1]

B&T APC308 DMR has an 18" barrel and would be close to a SCAR 17S weight. Should be very reliable and accurate.

 

[BCP]

Considering how hard it is to get a rifle over there (importation, licensing etc) I would get a haenal or other Euro rifle first, or an LMT or DDefense if it has to come from the USA.

The SFAR makes sense for people in the USA because they sell for 995$ and Ruger has support right here in the states. I would not buy one for the inflated overseas prices and then have to worry about sending it across the pond and back again.

 

[david walter]

I ran this experiment more times than I can count and eventually went back to an AR-15 with a 6mm ARC upper for this use, and a 300 HAMR for out to 250 with more energy.

 

[Riverlife87]

Scar 17s dmr 6.5 cm

 

[Grubber]

Lmt mws defender

 

[762libertarian]

For reference, the B&T with an 18" barrel is $6700. The Haenel is only $3800 but it's really quite heavy, as is the HK417.

A surprising candidate is the Tavor 7. It's durable, compact and weighs about 1,5lbs less than the Haenel, and it's noticably less expensive.

 

[msgriff]

For reference, the B&T with an 18" barrel is $6700. The Haenel is only $3800 but it's really quite heavy, as is the HK417.

A surprising candidate is the Tavor 7. It's durable, compact and weighs about 1,5lbs less than the Haenel, and it's noticably less expensive.

If you're used to conventional configurations and have never shot a bullpup, I would suggest trying one out (if possible) before considering the Tavor 7.