edit: Having a hard time seeing impact.

[Garvey]

Last June I was finally able to call my own shots with my .22-250. Not a lot of recoil I know. I've been doing load development for my .308 which is a Savage 10 FLCP-K with a freakin break! And I still can't ride the recoil just right to see my impacts even from the prone position. I've read the fundamentals of marksmanship over and over and put it into practice. I have been printing some pretty tight groups during my load development, but still can't seem to call my shots. I'm sure you guys are going to tell me that I need a video, but that'll have to wait a few days till I make it back to the range.

Thoughts? Questions?

 

[427Cobra]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

Sign up for the Online Training, Jacob and Frank will learn you the Jedi way of shooting

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

Learn to call your shots first by dry firing. Focus/concentrate on the reticle, and as you pull the trigger, consciously follow through. You should, upon completion of the firing task, know exactly where the reticle was in relationship to the target, and thus, have your call. Since all firing takes place at the firearm watching a video to learn about calling shots is not as meaningful as perhaps looking at examples of sight pictures which are identified by a statement regarding the proper calls for the examples.

 

[wettjp04]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

It seems to me that you don't really know how to describe what you are trying to do. You ask about calling your shots, but you talk about riding your recoil to see where you have hit. In my book those are two different things. Calling your shots is just that giving a description of where you belive that bullet went after you pulled the trigger. What is the last thing you saw before the gun went bang, where did that bullet go. Was the sight lined up, good sight picture etc...anything that could account for a "flier". It helps to train in that if you are noticing a group off of where you would expect or maybe a larger group than you know the gun is capable of, then it is you (as it most always is), and you need to try to address the fundamentals again to rule things out to make you the best shot you can be.

What it seems that you are describing in your post is that you are use to a low recoil rifle that you can see your bullet impacts, that is not calling your shots. As was mentioned above dry firing will help imensly with staying on rifle (follow through) after recoil to bring you back on target sooner and will also help you if you look for it and keep it in mind, try to take a mental "picture" when you hear the rifle go "click" while dry firing, or bang on the range. This will help any flinching that may pull you off of the rifle when it recoils which will push you more even with a brake attached...
Good luck!

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

As mentioned above you are confusing "calling" your shots with "spotting" your shots.

"Calling" is a mental picture of the alignment of your sights when the sear breaks prior to the rifle recoiling. When done properly you know where your shot impacted without actually seeing the hole. When you hear guys say that it was a "called" bad shot, it's because they knew they blew the shot before the recoil subsided.

"Spotting" your impacts is all in the body position and follow though. Dry firing will help with this. If you have a good position and perfect follow through you will not see the reticle move at all when the sear breaks.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

Thanks guys. I appologize for the misterminology. That reinforces my belief that I always have something to learn.

I'm doing well at calling my shots but not seeing impact (that better?) I'm about to have the ability to ping some steel targets and would like to see the impact as well as hear it. I understand the fundamentals are the main factor to accomplish my task. I think my main problem is not loading the bi-pod enough. My firing hand is, fairly, gently gripping the rifle (problem there?). The pad of my trigger finger is 90 to the trigger. No trigger jerking, slow and smooth steady pressure. My non firing hand is under the stock and very close to my chest. It is what is aligning the rifle/ scope on target. I've made a conscious effort to get straight behind the rifle. Even had a friend look at my position to see if when I felt I was behind the rifle I actually was. I also make a conscious effort to to try and not even blink (almost impossible) when the rifle fires. I figure if I'm trying to do that I will keep my alignment behind the scope. And lastly, I'm not getting in a hurry to cycle the bolt. I'm waiting until the recoil is done and I'm looking at the target again before I cycle. All while maintaining cheek weld.

So does it sound like a bipod loading issue? Firing hand needs to be gripping the stock a little more forcefully?

 

[Every Day Gun Guy]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

When you are straight behind the rifle how do you check your Natural Point of Aim? Do you first close your eyes for a couple seconds then open them to see that your reticle is where it was when you closed your eyes. Then second dry fire the rifle and watch to see if your reticle will jump slightly. If this is happening, this is where you rifle wants to naturally make the bullet impact and you are not strait behind the rifle. Natural Point of Aim is achieved by proper alignment of the spine being parallel to the bore and shoulders perpendicular to the bore. Load the Bipod by using your toes to push your core to the rifle then drop your heals and take all the pressure off and be a slab of dead meat behind your weapon. If your sight picture isn't properly on target, move your body and rifle as one, don't try to muscle the optics on target. If you are straight behind the rifle and have a good natural point of aim, you could relax every muscle in your body and the lay of your sights should still be in the target vicinity. Now the recoil only has one way to go, straight back and not horizontal when you squeeze the trigger and therefore putting you back on target vicinity. Also when using your firing hand to bring build your stockweld you must Isolate your BICEP only, so as not to cause unnecessary fatigue and shake to disturb the lay of your sights. Just my $.02. Hope it helps.

 

[Teggy1]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

I had alot of problems with poor shot placement and seeing my impacts as well. I got behind my .22 trainer and shot about 200 rnds before I realized what my problem was. I was not relaxing my shoulder, although I thought I was doing it right. It was really a zen moment and I started laughing, and laughing. If you have tension in your shoulder your going to have problems! Trying to keep your shoulder relaxed, and tension in your bicep doesn't sound difficult, but it took a while to get it right. I now have alot better shot placement, but I need to work on my follow through a little more.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

Spotting your shot will also have a great deal to do with the range you are shooting at. Trying to see the bullet go through the paper / hit steel at 100 yards is damn near impossible w/ a centerfire of any size. It takes all of the 1/10th of a second from bang to target to get your eye opened and closed. At 200 it's still .2 ish seconds, possible but not probable w/ any consistency. Most folks can't call their impacts with any regularity until 300 yds.

Back to definitions:

If what is happening is that your rifle is no longer pointing at the target after you get done w/ the recoil you have a positional issue.

OR

Your rifle is incorrectly set up for you (too long/short on the butt stock) cheek piece is too high/low etc.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Spotting your shot will also have a great deal to do with the range you are shooting at. Trying to see the bullet go through the paper / hit steel at 100 yards is damn near impossible w/ a centerfire of any size. It takes all of the 1/10th of a second from bang to target to get your eye opened and closed. At 200 it's still .2 ish seconds, possible but not probable w/ any consistency. Most folks can't call their impacts with any regularity until 300 yds.


Doc</div></div>

Okay... if you say so... LOL

 

[doc76251]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

Common Frank, you're saying you can catch trace and see the hole appear at 100? I got's to get me some more Lucky Charm's

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Graham]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Common Frank, you're saying you can catch trace and see the hole appear at 100? I got's to get me some more Lucky Charm's

Cheers, Doc </div></div>Trace, no. But I can watch the hole appear, on occasion, when I am doing everything right. It's like the feeling I get in a motorcycle race when in the 'flow' of everything: watching yourself do something as you are doing it. Pure Zen. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

I can see the hole appear in the paper... that is what I am saying. I can call impacts from 100 -- out.

In a sentence, <span style="font-style: italic">"we don't loose time"</span>

it's explained in detail in our classes, as well if you watch video of the rifles recoiling, they don't move enough to not be able to continue watching through the scope. Provided you don't get sloppy, but yes, it can be done and is taught that way.

Some people blink, some black out, some white out, but you can train yourself not to. We have a block on it.

As Graham said, it is definitely a Zen moment, definitely an advanced skill.

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

Doc,

You really have to be careful with blanket statements like "damn near impossible"

I did it 53 consecutive times this morning at 100 yards and a few others from alternate positions at 100

Not only is it possible, but for many it happens more often than not

 

[doc76251]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

I stand humbled and corrected for my generalization. Perhaps it's just my 30-06 w/ 210's and such that preclude me from seeing hits on most occasions. I will confess to having seen them impact w/ a 308 at 100 but I don't regularly run mine at 100 (or anything else for that matter except a .22LR).

I'll need to find the links to the vid's and such mentioned as I'd hate to be missing something important.

Jacob. Ever find that M1A?

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

I got it lovingly stored in my vault. Which I have repeatedly forgotten to mail to its rightful owner.
Bowed head, I will get it back where it belongs.
The upside is that it is in great condition as it has not been used or abused in any manner, however the manual has been thumbed through and referred to countless times. I may have even spilled a drop or two of morning coffee on it.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I got it lovingly stored in my vault. Which I have repeatedly forgotten to mail to its rightful owner.
Bowed head, I will get it back where it belongs.
The upside is that it is in great condition as it has not been used or abused in any manner, however the manual has been thumbed through and referred to countless times. I may have even spilled a drop or two of morning coffee on it. </div></div>

LOL,

So that means I have to scrape the Texas mud out of the stock

!

Sweat it not. Keep the book as I have electronic copies of them now and have forgotten more than is printed there regarding that platform. FWIW the last address provided is no good, do not send there.

You might have to take her out and drive her once or twice as I don't think that one has even had the feathers knocked out of the barrel yet. Careful, it may turn you into an iron sight and leather sling guy

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

I have had an affinity for irons and leather slings for a long time. You have to work at that!

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

For what it's worth I've never seen one of my bullets hit so I can't see where my shots are on a steel plate but I can call my shot if I've not done something right when it goes off. After a lot of practice and pills sent downrange and knowing your gun you'll be able to call your shot when it goes off. As for seeing your hits, that is something that I've read on here a lot about for the rifle guys and when all is done correctly and with most guns designed for long range shooting it can be done each shot. The correct technique with shooting a rifle seems to be the key to seeing your hits. I can live with not seeing my hits... I just gotta learn to not miss so it's not a problem.

It's kinda like when ya release a bowling ball and it just "feels right" and it's right in the pocket for a strike, same with shooting, if it looks right and goes off and feels right it's usually a hit. Usually me and a bud spot for each other to help with any windage problems. That is one HUGE advantage to be able to see your misses for a quick adjustment without relying on a "hopefully" correct call by a spotter. I can see it's something that would be wise to learn how to do correctly. I compete with a nontypical type gun at these long range matches and I don't think I'll ever see a hit but I'd not have it any other way.

I have gained a wealth of info from the Hide that I sort thru to fit my needs and don't even pretend to be a sniper or even tacticalcool but I do really enjoy ringing steel way out there. Thanks for the site and sharing of info.

Topstrap

 

[doc76251]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have had an affinity for irons and leather slings for a long time. You have to work at that! </div></div>

Much to that. Especially if you can translate.

Cheers,

Doc

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

I never could hold tight enough to keep the scope right on my target through firing. My .308 and most stuff smaller I can get it right back and see where the hole is. But, I never see the impact. I can keep the target in the scope but not focus on the target through the moving scope.
Saturday I was shooting my Grendel @ 300 and could see the impacts in the sand right behind the paper but couldn't see the holes. Wind and mirage pretty much reduced my shooting through the scope to holding a sight picture.

Edit:

I did notice my poor holding making my rounds go high and right 1/2". Then low center about 1/2"

 

[Garvey]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

Well, Saturday I had 7 loads to shoot, each 5 shot groups = 37 rounds. I set up paper at 300 and got in a prone position on the ground, and in the shade. I concentrated on the fundamentals, but without a witness I don't know if I was straight behind the rifle or not. One thing I did adjust was the height of the bi-pod. In the beginning of the session it was approximatly 7" out, I later let it out all the way to 9", to get more of the stock on my shoulder. This seemed to help me recover faster after the shot, but I still could not see trace or impact.

I'll have to elicit some help and keep practicing. I was doing something right, since some of my loads produced sub MOA even with a 5mph cross wind. Thanks for all the replies.

 

[doc76251]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

One thing I teach my students is to make an "upside down snow angel", in other words get behind your rifle (already pointed at the target) in push up position so that your shoulder drops right behind the stock. Drop down and swing both arms wide around so that the right hand lands on the pistol grip and the left on the bean bag. Then throw your legs out ~15 - 20* on either side.

From there you should be able to lift the rifle STRAIGHT up into your shoulder and push it into your cheek weld from below. Scrunch the bag up so that the rifle holds still. Now push forward w/ your toes to pre-load the bipod. Make any minor adjustments w/ the bag. Without moving your elbows or chest cycle the bolt. Breathe, trigger finger placement, breathe, grip, breathe, press....... BANG!

The rifle generally drives right straight back into your shoulder.

FWIW I like my bipod as close to the deck as possible. I'm a bit more "aerodynamic" than some but I have found it effective for those with higher BC's as well

Cheers,

Doc

 

[sandwarrior]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I teach my students is to make an "upside down snow angel", in other words get behind your rifle (already pointed at the target) in push up position so that your shoulder drops right behind the stock. Drop down and swing both arms wide around so that the right hand lands on the pistol grip and the left on the bean bag. Then throw your legs out ~15 - 20* on either side.

From there you should be able to lift the rifle STRAIGHT up into your shoulder and push it into your cheek weld from below. Scrunch the bag up so that the rifle holds still. Now push forward w/ your toes to pre-load the bipod. Make any minor adjustments w/ the bag. Without moving your elbows or chest cycle the bolt. Breathe, trigger finger placement, breathe, grip, breathe, press....... BANG!

The rifle generally drives right straight back into your shoulder.

FWIW I like my bipod as close to the deck as possible. I'm a bit more "aerodynamic" than some but I have found it effective for those with higher BC's as well

Cheers,

Doc</div></div>

Doc,

Sounds like good methodology.

I was more referring to shooting without the bipod. When I hold the rifle in tight seems like that artery that runs under the collarbone wants to make the rifle jump back and forth about ten degrees. I have wide shoulders and the act of getting my elbows mostly vertical under the gun creates a tight fit through my chest that seems to excacerbate heartbeat. I can ease that by shooting with my body at a 45-60 deg. angle to the rifle.

 

[Garvey]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One thing I teach my students is to make an "upside down snow angel", in other words get behind your rifle (already pointed at the target) in push up position so that your shoulder drops right behind the stock. Drop down and swing both arms wide around so that the right hand lands on the pistol grip and the left on the bean bag. Then throw your legs out ~15 - 20* on either side.

From there you should be able to lift the rifle STRAIGHT up into your shoulder and push it into your cheek weld from below. Scrunch the bag up so that the rifle holds still. Now push forward w/ your toes to pre-load the bipod. Make any minor adjustments w/ the bag. Without moving your elbows or chest cycle the bolt. Breathe, trigger finger placement, breathe, grip, breathe, press....... BANG!

The rifle generally drives right straight back into your shoulder.

FWIW I like my bipod as close to the deck as possible. I'm a bit more "aerodynamic" than some but I have found it effective for those with higher BC's as well

Cheers,

Doc </div></div>

Recieved Doc,

I'll be more conscious about placing my feet straight behind the rifle and then getting in position the way you described. Fortunatly for me, my chest outmeasures my waist by a significant margin. (I know that makes me a better fireman, and most likely will make me a better rifleman.) Being a good rifleman is like practicing medicine, we practice because we havn't mastered it yet. (Paramedic to Doctor

)

Thanks

 

[pickpick]

Re: Having a hard time calling my own shots.

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