Education on modern ar's

[GhengisAhn175]

Gents, my experience with ar's have been with what the military offered me: colts or Daniel defenses.

I'm looking for a thread that goes into pros/cons of higher end 5.56 guns as I'm seeing more and more names, each with high regards. This thread is not to start the following:
Piston vs gas
Company a vs company b

What I want to start a discussion is more along the lines of what makes each company unique with their features.

Mega, noveske, JP, LMT , these are names I'm unfamiliar with and going through their websites is more of aesthetic shopping vs KNOWING what features set them apart and why I should buy them. I want to buy too quality for me( and again not saying brand x is better than brand y) just want to know what the hive has to say.

And here we .... Go


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[N0mad]

You didn't specify your intended use for the weapon. Self defense, casual target, precision target?
Do you want to build or buy a complete package?

 

[kilos]

LBC

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Nomad,

My intentions were to buy a complete rifle.

As far as uses, I stayed away from that as I feel it would eliminate options as I want to know more about mechanical differences or unique features.

To be caliber specific, 5.56 and not an sbr as I'd like to take full advantage of powder burn and bullet capabilities. Figuring 16" ballpark is fine.


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[sib1948]

Many good choices available. I have a stock HK 556 A1 about 3years old with Harris bipod and ACOG 4X with red chevron and BDC reticle. Very accurate to 400 yards or so, but haven't pushed it further. About 3000 rounds so far and no issues. I think piston driven bolts are less of a pian than the gas driven bolts. Fewer parts to get gummed up or break! I'm more into bolt action rifles now and certainly not​ an expert!

 

[maggitas]

In my opinion the best manufacturers combine multiple elements. From fit and finish to selecting high quality parts. The use of high quality parts such as Chrome match grade bolt carriers, Adjustable gas blocks, match grade barrels, free float Rail adapter systems. Once you get into the bigger calibers the gas system becomes more of an issue. The ability to adjust the gas enables the user to taylor their rifle to their specific needs. There are plenty of manufacturers out there with fine rifles. Just pick your poison.

Novekse Great barrels, switchblock
Knights Armament Simple system all around performer(lightweight Accurate, dependable), great fit and finish
Larue See KAC above but with a little bit different eye candy
GAP Akin to Noveske but with more caliber choices
JP Rifles Soft shooting great accuracy light weight, adjustable gas block.

 

[jasonfaz]

I'd have to agree with N0mad. When the AR15 is the topic at hand and the focus is on the advantages realized via design, mechanical, and/or operational variations there really isn't a way to effectively answer the question considering it will be wholly dependant on subjective criteria. The fundamental value to be had from an AR15 set up - regardless of caliber, but also inclusive of caliber - is so subjective that the mere question as you state it is counterintuitive to what you seek. The same differences that you might consider to be great could also be a significant disadvantage for others based on the application at hand and what you personally prioritize as differentiators. A little more detail with respect to your intended uses, what aspects you consider important (reliability with all types of ammo, accuracy, weight, ergonomics, application, cost, etc), and how you would prioritize those are all things I would ask someone before making any kind of recommendation. All you'll likely see in response to your question as it's stated are comments directed towards brands that someone already owns and have a bias towards that "does what they want it to do". Not necessarily what you want it to do, nor have any discernable difference in function or end result. It all depends my friend!

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Okay I'll try to define my scope.

I have an hk mr762 that I have an eotech/magnifier on that I use as my battle rifle, but I feel it'll be better suited as a DMR
Out to medium distances.

Thought about picking up the little brother (556) and putting the eotech on their and get a 1/6 or 1-8 for the big brother,
But I wanted a variety.

I'm familiar with hk piston system and how it works also got a deal on it.

So for my 556 choice looking at different ones out there. I dont need it to be an sbr for cqb uses, just something to engage within 10-300 meters (and 300 will be pushing it to be honest).

Weight wise, haven't held a heavy 556 but I heard the hk one is heavy but it wasn't a choice anyways. I think a 16" barrel as stated earlier will suit me fine.

I'm familiar with kac and larue and what makes kac innovations strong (their bolt system for example) but until recently haven't looked into other brands like noveske, JP,
LmT.

Of course I want accuracy and quality as best as it can be (don't need wobbly upper/lower) tight tolerances, etc.


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[tickled pink]

I know you wish to buy a complete rifle, but this is what I would do if I had to do it over.

I originally bought a new Colt LE 6920 M4. It only shot 1" to 2" groups at 100 yds. even with the Giessele SSA-E trigger I installed. I am an accuracy nut so so after reading suggestions on Forums here and others I came to the conclusion that I would order a complete 18" varmint upper from White Oak Armament with a 1 in 7" twist in .223/5.56.

The mistake that I made was buying the complete rifle. Even though the Colt is a good rifle it was not accurate enough for my intended uses. What I should have done was to buy a complete lower on sale then buy the SSA-E trigger install it and then add the WOA complete upper. This way I would have saved almost the price of the WOA upper. Before I forget I had WOA Flute the barrel to save some weight and dissipate heat faster. All you have to do is align the two places where the upper and lower attach and push the two pins in. WALLA you have your complete rifle.

WOA makes all their barrels to competition quality so you should get a very accurate rifle. They warrant their work so if you are not satisfied they will make you happy.

Here is mine and the very first 100 yd. 5 shot target after two sighters. I also put a Bushnell AR/223 scope with 4.5-18x40mm zoom with Warne ULTRA HIGH QD aluminum mounts. They are 1.5 inches from the top of the Picatinny rail to the middle of the scope tube. This gives me a cheek weld that is comfortable for"ME". You may need the scope to be lower for "YOU". I also added a B-SQUARE bubble level to help me not to cant while shooting. I also added a CUSTOM TURRET LABEL for long range so I don't have to count clicks. Just range the target then turn to the distance hold for wind and shoot.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Thanks tickled but I'm gonna stay away from adding magnification to this 223/556 set up.

Gonna strictly be my cqb run and gun weapon and if I needed zoom for whatever reason up to 300, a 4x would work fine.

Again this is y lack of knowledge but frankensteining a upper/lower with different machines tolerances is what I don't want.

I heard this was an issue when you get larue upper or lowers as they machine it a certain way.


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[tickled pink]

Thanks tickled but I'm gonna stay away from adding magnification to this 223/556 set up.

Gonna strictly be my cqb run and gun weapon and if I needed zoom for whatever reason up to 300, a 4x would work fine.

Again this is y lack of knowledge but frankensteining a upper/lower with different machines tolerances is what I don't want.

I heard this was an issue when you get larue upper or lowers as they machine it a certain way.


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My WOA upper is as tight to my Colt lower you would want and the bolt is machined to match its barrel. They are all mass produced. They are not hand made where all the parts only fit one gun. Besides the good ones are made to the same MIL SPEC. tolerances. They may???? be assembled with different torques with each company may have different???? standards.

I'd like to see a complete rifle shoot smaller groups than mine which shoots .375" at 100 yds with Sierra 69 gr. Match Kings. The target I posted was shot with 65 gr. Game Kings loaded up for the colt with the original upper which grouped 1" to 2 "s with the same bullets. Both the uppers shoot like a sewing machine.

If you pay $4,000 plus I don't think it would shoots much smaller groups than mine.

 

[tickled pink]

If you want a complete rifle you could get a DCM, but it may be to heavy, but should shoot under 1/2".

 

[Matno]

I would definitely consider Rainier Arms on the list. Just shot one of their new .308s, and it oozed quality. Fit and finish are beautiful. They can customize it with lots of options, and price is actually competitive. Plus their barrels have a stellar reputation. I'm sure their .556 offerings are just as nice as the one I used. I built my own Franken rifle, but looked for quality in every component. I went with WMD nickel boron coated upper and bcg and couldn't be happier. I actually went with a 16" pencil barrel for weight, and it is a tack driver. I've shoot a few sub half MOA groups with it using just an ACOG. Can't wait to see what it will do now that I have a PST scope on it!

 

[jasonfaz]

Thanks Ghengis, that clarifies things a bit. That said, there are so many companies and so many quality products it'll be painstakingly difficult to hit all of them, but I'll highlight a few things I've noticed over the years that differentiate the quality and function of some companies design and products over others.

First, here's a few general assumptions. Barrels will be either CHF chrome lined or stainless steel. Stainless barrels are traditionally designed for the best possible accuracy and sacrifice a bit on the barrel life component. The CL types are meant to last as long as possible and sacrifice slightly on the accuracy front. However, I say that from a 'design intent' perspective only as I've had very good accuracy (sub MOA @ 100) with many CHF CL pipes.

KAC:
I personally put Knights at the top for a few reasons. They are seemingly always first to market with better designs and extremely high quality products.
- Their E3 round lug bolt design is very effective in increasing reliability and extending bolt life which is important considering the bolt is one of the key weaknesses of the AR15 system as a whole.
- Their 16" rifles would come with what KAC calls a proprietary mid-length gas system (pretty close to an intermediate gas length) which makes them super soft shooting rigs.
- Their lower receiver design is by far my favorite (worst case tied with AXTS for #1). Fantastic placement of Ambi controls that makes manipulation of the rifle fast and fluid. Very conducive to a CQB type of set up.
- Their URX 3.1 and URX4 handguards are very well made and are some of my favorite. I think highly enough of the URX4s that I have them on 90% of the rifles I have and use them for 75% of the builds I do for others.
- I also use KACs barricade supports exclusively. Just designed perfectly for my uses and same uber quality products you get used to seeing from KAC.

Noveske:
I'd put Noveske at #2 in terms of factory built rifles. That is based almost entirely on their barrels and the Switchblock.
- Their barrels use a proprietary 5.56 chamber and rifling. They are EXTREMELY accurate. Even their 10.5" 5.56 SS w/Mod 1 would shoot 1 to 1.5" at 400 yds with a variety of projectiles.
- I consider the switchblock a huge advantage but only when shooting suppressed and specifically when one is switching back and forth from suppressed to unsuppressed often. It's a speed thing. Outside of that application I use SLR gas blocks exclusively. Those two things are really the only things I buy from them.

JP:
- I love JPs QPQ carriers. They are IMO the very best out there. They slide like they're floating in butter inside your receiver. Mine has around 10k on it and it looks new.
- I'm also a huge fan of their PSC line of upper receivers. If you don't perceive any value coming from a dual charging apparatus (side charging and rear charging capable) you might not agree. But I love the side charge capability when shooting from prone. Might not make sense for a CQB set up, but they have to be one of the nicest machined uppers out there.
- JP is also well known for their Silent Captured Spring. It's a fantastic buffer/spring system that can accommodate a variety of different spring tensions and cycles extremely smooth and is very quiet. I think they are best used in carbine length REs.

AXTS:
- Their lower is right up there with KAC and arguably the very best out there. It will lock up tight with ANY upper as a result of some of the design advantages in incorporates. Quality is unsurpassed.
- the AXTS charging handle is extremely popular as well. It's very well made and is probably the best designed CH out there.

Seekins Precision:
- one of the prettiest receiver sets around. Very ergonomic operating controls and it includes a tensioning screw machined into the lower to ensure tight lock up as well as an overtravel adjustment screw already machined into the lower. Nice things to have when tuning a rifle.

BCM:
I use their grips and KMR handguard on lightweight builds. That's about it from them though.

LWRC:
- If you are right handed you might like their M6 lower. It's a very unique design that I also think very highly of that enables the user to use the right hand to not only release the bolt but also hold it back with the same motion when charging the weapon to lock the bolt back. It's the only lower with that functionality. Again, whether that's important or not is entirely subjective.
- I absolutely love LWRCs compact and UCIW collapsible stocks. For me, they offer a perfect cheekweld, LOP, and are extremely light and well built. I use them whenever I can.

LMT:
- their enhanced bolts and enhanced carriers are fantastic. I use the bolts exclusively in every 5.56 and 300BLK that I own. IMO they are the best bolts hands down (yet very very close to the KAC). Bolt has radiused and rounded lugs, dual extractor springs and relief cuts underneath the extractor for optimal reliability.
-Their enhanced carriers are very effective in mitigating issues surrounding pressures, dwell time, gas mgmt and overall cyclic operation. Probably the best carrier/bolt combo around. That's about all I buy from them.
- the other design difference LMT is known for are their true monolithic upper receivers and their ability to accommodate multiple barrels to make a rifle system that is able to quickly change calibers. A mono upper could be beneficial when mounting a variable optic but not so much with a fixed mag or red dot sight.

Vltor:
Makes the patented A5 buffer system. Very soft shooting as the buffer has the same length of travel as an A2 rifle length set up but also gives you the option of running an adjustable stock.
- make a very nice polylithic upper as well as a hugely popular MUR upper that you'd traditionally see on the majority of compete Noveske uppers.

Primary Weapons Systems:
- I love their enhanced buffer tubes. Very fluid design and very well built with integrated sling attachment points. Removes the need for a castle nut and locks up tighter IMO.
- They make the heaviest DI bolt carrier on the market. I love it in my short rifles or rifles that are larger caliber with heavy recoil. Provides significant advantages in those contexts. For a 16", not so much.
- if you're interested in piston set ups, the PWS is hard to beat. Fantastic quality, customer service, very innovative products and rifle design.

Larue:
I'm sure these are great guns. I'll let someone who has one chime in on the advantages. Other than XTRAXN and their free float design, I'm not sure i see anything special about them. I've used their receivers on a couple builds, but I think there are far better options available. I do use their Surefire QD mounts for all of my weapon lights and occasionally use their POD and riser for Magpul furniture when the intended uses of the rig make sense.

I probably missed some - like San Tan who I'd throw definitely throw in their of you were building your own - but that's a snap shot of what jumps out to me. At the end of the day, if I wanted to buy a complete 16" rifle, I'd buy a KAC if going DI. I'd buy PWS if you want a piston. Out of those two KAC would be my choice. Hope that helps!

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Haven't heard of dcm but will definitely look into it thanks


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[jashmore1234]

Okay I'll try to define my scope.

I have an hk mr762 that I have an eotech/magnifier on that I use as my battle rifle, but I feel it'll be better suited as a DMR
Out to medium distances.

Thought about picking up the little brother (556) and putting the eotech on their and get a 1/6 or 1-8 for the big brother,
But I wanted a variety.

I'm familiar with hk piston system and how it works also got a deal on it.

So for my 556 choice looking at different ones out there. I dont need it to be an sbr for cqb uses, just something to engage within 10-300 meters (and 300 will be pushing it to be honest).

Weight wise, haven't held a heavy 556 but I heard the hk one is heavy but it wasn't a choice anyways. I think a 16" barrel as stated earlier will suit me fine.

I'm familiar with kac and larue and what makes kac innovations strong (their bolt system for example) but until recently haven't looked into other brands like noveske, JP,
LmT.

Of course I want accuracy and quality as best as it can be (don't need wobbly upper/lower) tight tolerances, etc.


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I have a different set of criteria for a rifle to apply for the job of CQB (10 yards) and engaging targets to 200 yards.

It must feed and operate reliably when it is dirty from being carried in the field using quality ball ammo (must go bang when I need it to go bang), it needs to hold a 2MOA group (6" at 300 yards), be reasonably light (, quick acquisition sights (with BUIS) and it needs to have a high round count life (for training and more training). Add the sling of your choice, maybe stock that fits the shooter, lose the do-dads (flashlight, four rails, lasers, etc.) and shoot the shit out of it until it is second nature.

If it won't make it through a 1000 round weekend training session without fucking up, it goes to a gun smith. If it continues to fuck up, it is a detriment and should be culled from the heard.

Safe Queens, match rifles and scoped rifles need not apply.

 

[GhengisAhn175]

So what do you use for your purposes jashmore?


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[GhengisAhn175]

Appreciate all that info Jason. Loved the customer PoV instead of companies description saying "this is the best design".

Unbiased and practical.

Surprised you didn't bring in scar / hk or the likes.

Not trying to buy a fad gun but again looking at the Pros and cons.

From the description sounds like a kac with a noveske barrel with some other adjustments would be tits


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[jstalford]

It's easy to get caught up in all the fads and modularity. If I could do it all over again, I would get a kac sr15 + Aimpoint and be done with it.

 

[BuzzinSATX]

Ghengis, all I'd tell you is when it comes at AR's, it's all about the quality of the components. I believe the most critical components are the barrel and bolt carrier group. I want mil spec and tested/verified. I also want a high round count barrel, so mine are all hammer forged. When I get an AR to drive tacks, it will be a quality stainless steel barrel.

I've found the best deals for the money on guns I can trust for CQB in my limited experience are Daniels Defense and Bravo Company. Lots of love for Colt too, but I've been reading too much bad about the company lately and I'm passing on them.

Right now, Primary Arms is selling Daniels Defense rifles for $400 off all rifles in stock. Great deal IMO.

I own a DDM4 and built a rifle using BCM complete upper on a quality lower I built. Both guns run all day long as long as they have some oil on them.

My DDM4 has an Aimpoint Pro that I bought 3 years ago and have not turned off since. Just recently replaced the battery, even though it was still going strong. Just figured after 2+ years I'd change it as it's my go-to HD weapon. The BCM upper gun had a 1*4 scope...not enough shooting with it to give you any valid opinion, but I like it thus far.

Good luck to you.




Take Care,

Buzz

 

[GhengisAhn175]

Thanks fellas! Anyone have input on mega maten? I know they have high regards but unsure why, same with JP.

Hogue was something I came across but unsure, but getting more info on WOA as well.

I haven't totally discounted DD as I'm familiar with DD but making a "short list" so to speak.


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[502Chevelle]

Putting one upper on a different lower is not Frankensteining a gun! All these guys build their parts to a tight tolerance spec, and you should be able to mate most brands with another. If you need to call something a Frankenstein, look no further than what I call my "bastard child". JP barrel, coolie comp, heat sink, lower and trigger. Vltor emod stock and guts, Vltor Muir upper, PRI cf hg, Stark grip ( which are awesome and under rated), Youngs Nmlw bolt and carrier along with a High Standard small parts kit. Top it off with a Larue spre mount and Burris Euro optic (pre xtr) with a custom bcc reticle. This is a "Frankie" gun, that runs like a top and is very very accurate. When I take it around cops or swat units, they all sneer at it, talking about their 6920's. Once the shooting starts, everybody wants to know about my gun!

 

[jashmore1234]

So what do you use for your purposes jashmore?


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For that purpose a basic RR Entry Tactical LAR-15 with a co-witnessed EOtech that just works. I freely admit that it is not a high end AR. It isn't as pretty as some, it isn't as accurate as others, but it goes bang when I pull the trigger and it is minute of chest accurate with bulk ammo at what I consider its effective range (300 yards). For its intended purpose, it works just fine.

If I want to create groups to take pictures of and brag about, I have other higher end AR's (2xCLE) that are very accurate, but they also are very picky (based on their chamber design) about what they will shoot and bulk ammo is not on the menu.

Just my .02.

 

[tickled pink]

A DCM ( Director of Civilian Marksmanship ) is a style of AR 15 that is used in High Power competition. When I was competing in High Power I bought a Bushmaster DCM and right out of the box with an 18 power scope off of sand bags it would shoot 10 shot groups at 100 yds. less than 1/2" with Sierra 69 gr. moly coated Match Kings with Varget and CCI BR4 primers. The barrel under the hand guard was about one inch in diameter and had a 2 stage competition trigger. Was super accurate all day long without cleaning.

http://www.bushmaster.com/electronic-documents/TechSheets/XM15 Model PDFs/DCM Rifle.pdf

 

[BC83]

Gents, my experience with ar's have been with what the military offered me: colts or Daniel defenses.

I'm looking for a thread that goes into pros/cons of higher end 5.56 guns as I'm seeing more and more names, each with high regards. This thread is not to start the following:
Piston vs gas
Company a vs company b

What I want to start a discussion is more along the lines of what makes each company unique with their features.

Mega, noveske, JP, LMT , these are names I'm unfamiliar with and going through their websites is more of aesthetic shopping vs KNOWING what features set them apart and why I should buy them. I want to buy too quality for me( and again not saying brand x is better than brand y) just want to know what the hive has to say.

And here we .... Go


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OP,

You have some valid questions and to tell you the truth I only talk about companies that i have personally put hands on. If your are seriously thinking of getting into AR's I will say this, don't get stuck on buying a named brand AR (ie) LMT, JP, LWRC, POF... ... Take the time and build you own and you will see that every company out there has there own little twist on things but it's really not that hard to make a 1/2 MOA rifle with a little research and a couple quality parts to start with..

 

[jasonfaz]

All good responses, and all have valid points. Ultimately, many people shrug off design improvements to address weak points of the system as 'fads' just because they bought something different. While that's complete bullshit, those people will probably never be in a scenario where they have to genuinely test that theory out (hopefully). I've not been so fortunate. Those experiences have taught me that, for example, the $85 monetary value one might place on the difference in cost between a milspie bolt and an LMT enhanced is no where near what it actually can turn out to be. It depends on what you're willing to risk based on your application and in what environment you plan on using it.

Generally speaking - and with respect to the top companies out there who've EARNED their brand name by consistently producing quality, reliable products - Every discernible variation in your rifle's durability (barrel longevity, quality of materials used in parts, etc) and accuracy will more than likely not be noticeable to you based on one or two components by themselves. It takes the complete system working together like you want and need it to, based on the context of the task at hand, for expectations to be met. For example, using a BM DCM (which stands for Dept of Civilian Marksmanship btw) which weighs over 13 lbs, is over 3 feet in length, is not free floated has an A2 stock, non-removable carry handle, etc, etc, would be the ABSOLUTE worst choice for a CQB rifle. Sure, it's probably fan-fucking-tastic from the bench, but it would be so detrimental to your stated purpose that you really couldn't choose anything worse - like genuinely - you couldn't. I wouldn't even run a 16" or a 14.5" for that matter. $200 for a stamp? Can I get five please?

As it's been sort of mentioned, the AR platform is immensely valuable for the versatility inherent in the design. Meaning you can build EXACTLY what you want based on your unique set of requirements. Factory guns can't be built as such. There's just too many variables involved. That said, some just want a gun that runs with 'meh' accuracy, but even worse, does it that way every time. Those are a dime a dozen. Close your eyes and pick one and you're gtg. For me, I want the absolute best kit that coincides with the granular details of my intended uses. Those requirements will vary - at times dramatically so - from person to person as will the perceived value of improved products and designs (aka, "fads").

 

[BC83]

All good responses, and all have valid points. Ultimately, many people shrug off design improvements to address weak points of the system as 'fads' just because they bought something different. While that's complete bullshit, those people will probably never be in a scenario where they have to genuinely test that theory out (hopefully). I've not been so fortunate. Those experiences have taught me that, for example, the $85 monetary value one might place on the difference in cost between a milspie bolt and an LMT enhanced is no where near what it actually can turn out to be. It depends on what you're willing to risk based on your application and in what environment you plan on using it.

Generally speaking - and with respect to the top companies out there who've EARNED their brand name by consistently producing quality, reliable products - Every discernible variation in your rifle's durability (barrel longevity, quality of materials used in parts, etc) and accuracy will more than likely not be noticeable to you based on one or two components by themselves. It takes the complete system working together like you want and need it to, based on the context of the task at hand, for expectations to be met. For example, using a BM DCM (which stands for Dept of Civilian Marksmanship btw) which weighs over 13 lbs, is over 3 feet in length, is not free floated has an A2 stock, non-removable carry handle, etc, etc, would be the ABSOLUTE worst choice for a CQB rifle. Sure, it's probably fan-fucking-tastic from the bench, but it would be so detrimental to your stated purpose that you really couldn't choose anything worse - like genuinely - you couldn't. I wouldn't even run a 16" or a 14.5" for that matter. $200 for a stamp? Can I get five please?

As it's been sort of mentioned, the AR platform is immensely valuable for the versatility inherent in the design. Meaning you can build EXACTLY what you want based on your unique set of requirements. Factory guns can't be built as such. There's just too many variables involved. That said, some just want a gun that runs with 'meh' accuracy, but even worse, does it that way every time. Those are a dime a dozen. Close your eyes and pick one and you're gtg. For me, I want the absolute best kit that coincides with the granular details of my intended uses. Those requirements will vary - at times dramatically so - from person to person as will the perceived value of improved products and designs (aka, "fads").

You Sir are a God Damn Poet...

I wish more people on here were like you..

 

[jasonfaz]

You Sir are a God Damn Poet...

I wish more people on here were like you..

Thanks brother. I just call em like I see em

 

[Cobracutter]

If there was a god,

He would shoot KAC.........

/thread

 

[jasonfaz]

Hahaha! Yep. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Father, the Son, and even the Holy Ghost all run SR-15 IWS Mod 2s. Then again, they'd probably laugh and say, "Of course not. We slang SR16s E3s. Why? Because when you create universes and shit, you do what you want to do."

 

[Cobracutter]

LOLOLOL..... SR16's and KAC QDC cans for all

I am partial to the Mod 0 (legacy), really need to find one of the green ones to go with the taupe.

Might have to pick a Mod 2 just to keep the mod1's in the safe company. One of my life goals is to fill out a M16 rack with all KAC guns.