Could be the dumbest statement I've seen on the Hide in a long time.
effectiveness out of 10.5
- Thread starter steelsnob47
- Start date
Why are we discussing the illegal-to-own, impossible to acquire M855A1?
77gr OTM's do surprisingly well in short barreled rifles. Speer Gold Dot is also a runner-up choice. If you're working inside the space of a home I think you can get away with a lot of other options. If you want a round that is effective throughout the entire usable range of a 10.5" barrel, go for the 77gr, it does surprisingly well down to a pretty low velocity.
77gr OTM's do surprisingly well in short barreled rifles. Speer Gold Dot is also a runner-up choice. If you're working inside the space of a home I think you can get away with a lot of other options. If you want a round that is effective throughout the entire usable range of a 10.5" barrel, go for the 77gr, it does surprisingly well down to a pretty low velocity.
Black Hills states the 77 TMK reliably fragments down to 1900 fps and I have seen evidence of it even lower. Do the math.
And your response illuminates your deficiency as well.
The ar15 is not a battle rifle.
An m14 is a battle rifle, the FAL is a battle rifle.
The ar15 is a semi automatic version of an assault rifle.
It has a 50 year record of mediocre terminal effectiveness.
Ok keep spewing your lame excuses. Regardless of what year's Gun Digest you were reading about classifications, it's the most widely used firearm in this country and that didn't come from being mediocre.
The AR is and has always been a compromise. Lighter, handier, super modular, etc... How far the platform has come since the M16A1's while keeping the same design is a testament on it's own. We all understand it's not going to be a one shot show stopper like a 30-06, but we take that trade off and work with it.
In my mind, you aren't loosing all that much moving from a rifle length barrel to a short one, when you consider how powerful 5.56 is with respect to other calibers. When comparing 5.56 out of a 20" barrel to 5.56 out of a 10.3" barrel it seems like a lot, but it's really not.
It's all about perspective.
In my mind, you aren't loosing all that much moving from a rifle length barrel to a short one, when you consider how powerful 5.56 is with respect to other calibers. When comparing 5.56 out of a 20" barrel to 5.56 out of a 10.3" barrel it seems like a lot, but it's really not.
It's all about perspective.
If you think M80 ball is a killer you should see modern 5.56mm loads.
You have a real problem with comphrehension.
Come on out of the basement and ask your parents explain what was actually said.
nosler says ballistic tips perform down to 1600 fps. still leaning 77's now though. thanks for all replies.
Everything in life is a compromise. There is no such thing as perfection.
that is unless you somehow managed to discover a gun that aims itself, has no recoil, has the energy of a .50cal, infinate magazine, 100% reliable, works from 0-5000 yards , is cheap to make, a monkey can maintain it and weighs less than a feather.
yet is the most prolific rifle in the hands of special operations, spooks and law enforment the world over. You should let them know its just a compromise.
I don't give a shit about your retarded claim about mediocre terminal effectiveness. Use the right bullet for the job and put rounds where they need to go and it's game over. The AR with current choices of ammo does this better than any other platform.
Wow. You are really emotionally invested in your AR. So much so, you fail to see the shortcomings of the original chambering, which is exactly why they have been improving it since he day it was released.
2590-2620, 55 Vmax, 10.5” bbl
43.70 grains the jacket was attached it fell off as I pulled bullet out of gel. 13 inches of penetration.
Primary cavity started less than 2 inches in
I run 60 Vmax for my SBR / pistol optimized ammo. Shooting buddy has ballistic gel but no 60 Vmax, he did have 55 Vmax. 60s run 2570 from my 10.5”.
Pretty sure 60 or 55 Vmax from a 10.5” will do just fine as a SD / HD bullet.
Better options available?
Possibly.
1-4 NXS, dope to 400 meters but if using 10.5 for longer engagements it is just to get me to better tool for task.
And yet people who canoe foreheads for a living and can chose from any small arm in the world.....use that shortcoming of the original chamber as you say?
interesting.
Good work there.
keep in mind ballistic gel doesn’t tell the whole . In fact is just the closest thing we have (and not really that close) to shooting bodies for testing. I always thought shooting hogs would be more appropriate, but bacon is expensive.
human tissue has a variety of density materials that all effect terminal performance. Bone, cartilidge, muscles, fat plus anything the human is wearing. Ballistic gel tells us some things but it’s really a small piece of the picture. A homogeneous solution really can’t replicate that.
The problem with a lot of the varmit rounds is the thin jacket and when they hit something hard they tend to just shred, bleeding off energy and not penetrating. Look at what is used on dangerous game, to defeat bone and hard tissue while still getting to vitals.
It’s true rounds like the Amax had proven hits on live humans and put them down. Then again hitting the target is better than missing.
Y'all know you get more than one shot, right?
I agree fully.
I chose 60 Vmax for my SBR / pistol ammo with intent being SD / HD.
Prefer bullet not leave intended target w/much if any energy.
When Vmax shreds on a bone, it’ll slow’em down enough the next one will finish job. Pretty sure @ 100 and in, gonna break said bone too.
If all goes well, I’ll never find out.
I’m confident that 2 rds of the 60 Vmax to UMT, 1 rd neck / cranium will do as planned in a HD / SD situation.
If SD / HD involves people w/soft armour & plate then most of the equation changes and I’ve got a different problem.
Pretty sure we agree more than disagree.
No they can't. They use what they are issued. Even in the world of spec ops they are still limited.
Yeah bro. I think they know.
I use one for work and would be hard pressed to find something I'd want more as a do all rifle to take into an unknown high stress situation.
I was making a similar point. Clam down.
Thanks for the information?
55 / 62 / 75 GD & 55 / 62 / 70 TSX more better for smashing and penetrating to vitals if hitting bone on way in. I understand that.
Will a 60 Vmax stop perp in fleece jacket, flannel shirt, cotton T-shirt w/polypropylene base layer (expedition weight) or get stopped before breaking skin?
Tis but a scratch!
Always a better choice if you have enough time to weight out everything.
60 Vmax was chosen as it was heavier varmint bullet so even if lose jacket, core still going forward.
Purpose / intent of going with the 60 Vmax was if passes through or intended target missed, bullet fragments sooner than later to minimize collateral damage.
Provided intended target is hit, wanted bullet to dump all energy inside. All indicators are that will happen.
SD / HD 10.5” has a magazine full of 60 Vmax. I’d prefer to never fully know the answer but confident enough in 60 Vmax to get me to other side of said encounter if it ever happens.
Wrong. Black side SOF has R&D teams in each unit who do nothing but test out new products, materials and methods. They can literlay buy COTS or order gov specified gear with their special aquisitiion authority.
White side tends to purchase for the whole, however if they deemed something better such as the 6.5cm guns they are currently running, there is a process for it. It just takes longer however units can get a special authority of there is a capability gap.
Same thing with CIA, DIA, FBI , DEA, CBT, FMS for both their uniform and covert units. If the m4 sucks they would use something else.
They are issued what they are issued becuase that is what works under controlled testing and evaluation when taking all factors into consideration.
If the m4 sucked we would have migrated to something else by now. If 5.56 sucked so bad they would be running 6.8 or 6.5 or one of hundreds of other calibers that fit their needs that you fanboys seem to think they should run.
Maybe, just maybe , they run what they run because its the one of the best tools for the job all things considered.
To have a gun that is over 60 years old be considered one of the best picks in 2020 is amazing. We're experimenting with 6.8mm rounds and other interesting stuff, but the reality is that you can only do so much with a rifle cartridge. Even the most fringe precision cartridges today aren't that different from other calibers, because there are thousands of calibers out there and there hasn't been some incredible advance in gunpowder, barrels, or projectiles.
I don't get the incessant hate of the AR-15. Of COURSE it isn't perfect. Every thing, ever designed, for every purpose, ever, and into all future, will always be an imperfect compromise, without exception.
I don't get the incessant hate of the AR-15. Of COURSE it isn't perfect. Every thing, ever designed, for every purpose, ever, and into all future, will always be an imperfect compromise, without exception.
It's called evolving. You're starting to sound pretty ignorant so maybe you should digress for a while and educate yourself on how this concept is applied to the military and firearms.
Mk262 or similar is my choice if something like 62gr Fusion, 64gr Gold Dot, or Mk318 isn't an option. Hornady GMX would also make a good choice, but I'm leery of their Superformance sub-brand.
On Topic Update:
We're seeing a theme here.
Heavy for caliber projectiles and projectiles that are known to reliably expand/fragment/react at slower speeds [~2100fps] seem to be the way to go according to the responses.
We're seeing a theme here.
Heavy for caliber projectiles and projectiles that are known to reliably expand/fragment/react at slower speeds [~2100fps] seem to be the way to go according to the responses.
Bingo. Sierra took their highly successful 77gr Matchking and improved on it by adding the polymer tip to initiate expansion/fragmentation at slower velocities, making it extremely effective out of shorter barrels.
Lol if civil unrest is bad enough that people don’t have ammo il be using a 16” 556 or 20” 6.5
SBRs are for city people and people who fantasize about doing structure clearing. Both are good ways to have a short life expectancy if SHTF.
SBR's are good for a lot more friend. Even just moving around the side of a single building, I'll tell you that you'll want something as short as you can get in that moment. Moving through dense vegetation, short and handy is the way to go. Getting in and out of vehicles or garbing a rifle out of a vehicle, short and handy is what you'll want.
Truth be told, there are fewer situations where I would want something 16"+ rather than shorter. There aren't very many scenarios I can conjure up where I need to take a 300yd+ shot with a 5.56, much less positively identify things that I'd justifiably use deadly force uppon that far away.
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i thought sbrs were for 40 rounds ontap dustoff from a mob blocked freeway and my family needs thru. one that i can maneuver without leaving drivers seat.
In a hypothetical, one has to make an assumption about a situation, specifically in this case “Is the opposition armed and with what?”
Are we talking fending off yeet cannon-wielding jackasses via superior firepower, or engaging multiple trained competent shooters with carbines or rifles over extended distances?
You don’t have to be a DeltaSealReconBro to see benefit in a system whose core competency is inside 300m and let’s be honest, without training most people even with LVPOs will struggle to place accurate fire under stress on a man-sized target at half that range.
Are we talking fending off yeet cannon-wielding jackasses via superior firepower, or engaging multiple trained competent shooters with carbines or rifles over extended distances?
You don’t have to be a DeltaSealReconBro to see benefit in a system whose core competency is inside 300m and let’s be honest, without training most people even with LVPOs will struggle to place accurate fire under stress on a man-sized target at half that range.
11.5 wedges under the PTO lever on my tractor. 16” doesn’t fit. The gun near to hand is better.
Suppressed 16” in a ACE case fits real well to the left of my seat.
My 8” suppressed 300 sucks sitting there tho. Too short to fit correctly and slides down to the floor.
I was looking at SBR lengths specifically for farm use. Inches matter when going in and out of vehicles and equipment, and you lose a lot more when a can gets involved. Most situations that require quick shots are almost always within 200 yards, if not less than 50 for me.
Personally, I struggled to get a 20" rifle from the passenger floor to my window and that is what started the pursuit for a shorter farm rifle.
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Haha!
Good example of finding what works for the given task.
Rock that 16" man. 300bs is overrated anyway.
300 is good stuff for doing quiet work. Surprising how far out subs will killHaha!
Good example of finding what works for the given task.
Rock that 16" man. 300bs is overrated anyway.
If my targets didn’t involve groundhogs and other varmints to 4-600 yards I would ditch the 16” as a gp rig
If you are wanting a round specifically for your 10.5", check out Hornady's SBR Black - 5.56NATO or their SBR TAP
They use a purpose built 75gr interlock and propellant optimized for short barrels.
5.56 NATO 75 gr Interlock® HD SBR™ Hornady BLACK® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
5.56 Nato 75 gr InterLock HD SBR Hornady Black is designed specifically for 10.5-11.5 SBR’s by using proprietary propellant technology and a bullet designed with technology from industry leading Critical Duty FlexLock bullets. This round provides exc...
I run it in two 10" guns with excellent function and accuracy.
./
unfortunately currently have exactly 20 of those. not enuf for a mag.If you are wanting a round specifically for your 10.5", check out Hornady's SBR Black - 5.56NATO or their SBR TAP
They use a purpose built 75gr interlock and propellant optimized for short barrels.
5.56 NATO 75 gr Interlock® HD SBR™ Hornady BLACK® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
5.56 Nato 75 gr InterLock HD SBR Hornady Black is designed specifically for 10.5-11.5 SBR’s by using proprietary propellant technology and a bullet designed with technology from industry leading Critical Duty FlexLock bullets. This round provides exc...www.hornady.com
I run it in two 10" guns with excellent function and accuracy.
./
If you are wanting a round specifically for your 10.5", check out Hornady's SBR Black - 5.56NATO or their SBR TAP
They use a purpose built 75gr interlock and propellant optimized for short barrels.
5.56 NATO 75 gr Interlock® HD SBR™ Hornady BLACK® - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc
5.56 Nato 75 gr InterLock HD SBR Hornady Black is designed specifically for 10.5-11.5 SBR’s by using proprietary propellant technology and a bullet designed with technology from industry leading Critical Duty FlexLock bullets. This round provides exc...
I run it in two 10" guns with excellent function and accuracy.
./
I like that they still used a 20” barrel as the test bed for that round. How very useless of them.
Look at the Black Hills testing on the 77 TMK. Gel shot from a 14.5 barrel looked better than the 77 OTM shot out of a 20". The 77 TMK excels in shorter barrels.
Magtech has an excellent 5.56 MK262 equivalent load.
Finding it (or much of anything else) may prove a challenge.
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