Effectiveness with ar10 and 15

[ChrisWay]

I want to start a discussion on speed, effectiveness, and where you feel the cost benefit for the platforms transitions to bolt guns.
What are your thoughts and how did you come to this conclusion?

 

[Lowlight]

We had a great weekend working these platforms and trying to see how to increase speed vs accuracy at distance.

Exploring the speed drop vs other methods as well as getting back to 308.

This 556 we took to 1k, so it’s been fun working the systems again as they are so different compared to the wind cheaters

 

[wvfarrier]

Personally, I have always been more accurate with an AR platform that I am with a bolt action. Of course, being a lefty, I was well into my 30s before I actually shot a left handed bolt action . The ability of a semi auto rifle (lets say of equal quality to a well made BA) is just as accurate but also allows repeat firing without moving your hands.

 

[bigjake83]

Shooting Large Frame Gassers in PRS is definitely challenging in it's own right.
After returning to PRS this year after a 15 year break things have definitely changed to say the least.

Bolt gun VS Gasser

Depending on what the circumstances and requirements are for that current stage you're on will make all the difference. Due to the fact you can't "Free Recoil" a Large Frame Gasser any stage that requires you to operate the rifle without any rear support will put you at a great disadvantage compared to bolt rifles especially when engaging targets outside of 450 yards in my experience is when things definitely seem to get really challenging.

When shooting from a fixed position with front and rear support I didn't feel at a disadvantage at all, and now that I know what to expect after such a long break from competing and after learning a few tricks here and there like using your non firing hand for rear support by gripping a Tripod which gives you a rock solid rear support but also causes more lost time trying to drag around a tripod.

As for cost, there is really no advantage beside most people feel more comfortable rebarreling or customizing thier Gasser than a Bolt Rifle.

So far I haven't experienced any real advantages to running a Gasser over a bolt rifle other than challenging yourself and learning a new skill.

 

[Kinked_Chrome]

My personal experience and observations shows that for target sizes 1mil or larger, gassers can be faster by many users. Once you get down to .5mil or smaller though, it takes a really proficient gas gun user to keep up with a bolt gun, especially in scenarios where no make up shots are allowed.

I have noticed that having a gas gun that is as consistent as a bolt gun in all positions and all weather conditions everytime you pull it from the case is more challenging. These issues are often hidden by large target sizes that are more typical at gas gun matches.

 

[Lowlight]

It's sounds like people understand the gas gun is a different system to drive but they are not familiar with the quirks of the individual rifle because it can vary

My gas guns are very accurate, and very consistent the deciding factor that I find is the follow through and in PRS competition nobody has time for follow through

No even with their bolt guns, the majority, "tap" the trigger and are moving way too fast for the shot process to complete. With a gas gun that is a miss every time as you have to let the system do it job before you move. That extra second hesitation is hard when you are on the clock.

 

[BCP]

Easier to get reliable/repeatable performance out of a bolt action plus with all of the newer "budget" tactical rifles out there it's more accessible to the average shooter. Howa and Tikka both have rifles with magazines/adjustable stocks that are a little over a thousand dollars.

 

[Lowlight]

If you say so,
I find my ARs to be infinitely repeatable and accurate it's how you drive them

Today the platforms are so much better than they were in the past...

 

[ActualCryptid]

not a PRS shooter of any note but:

"Pull trigger, bang, click" is seared into my memory from PI. That good foillow-through and a good wind call are the money makers when you're shooting a 500yd line with an M4 or raggedy M16A2 and M855, and it doesn't become less true when you use a better rifle, better ammo, and longer distance. I particularly notice this on Ar10s and when I got behind a SCAR17.

The thing I also notice is that most semiautos also buck the scope more (round for round), which can make self-spotting impacts tougher until your flight time gets longer than the action cycle. For me, it took time to adjust to that and I ended up preferring to run lower magnification as a result, like running a 3-15x at 12 instead of 15 just to reduce how jarring the action cycle is. Piston guns/piston uppers seem to be worse about it, but that could just be unfamiliarity.

Which brings me to: gas tuning. I think where many shooters go wrong on ARs specifically is having one overgassed, which exacerbates the above. probably less an issue for the average Hide bubba, but worth mentioning in the context of gaming, especially if you run a silencer or handload. Getting the rifle to run reliably without being overgassed like the aforementioned raggedy military rifle will make a smoother, and more precise weapon in the hands of a good shooter. You may find that the load your bolt action liked does not play well in a semi-auto without being overgassed.

And since I mentioned handloads, mag compatibility seems to be a turnoff for folks running rounds outside the STANAG family. Grendel had mag issue for a while, I have not played with ARC or Valkyrie to see if they also struggle but the STANAG box and the DPMS/SR25 mag can limit some of the newer loads or feed less reliably, especially the long-nose/fat-body rounds. Just another quirk to consider before you start plotting a 6 Dasher build. IIRC there are some threads about modding mags for the Dasher specifically in a gas gun. Steel body mags are your friend in the ARs as well as they give you a little more space to stretch seating depth, KAC mags have been the gold standard in the SR25 platform as well.

I built a straight-pull .223 when Lantac was still offering them here in the states and it's an odd duck. Recoil impulse like a turn-bolt, cycles faster than turn bolt but slower than a semiauto, and since there's no rear charging to worry about you can get as close on the glass or mount a cheek rest without issue. I would probably jump at trying another straight-pull AR-based rifle if I could find one that I liked.

 

[Milf Dots]

Good topic of discussion...

 

[BravoSector1]

From a dude with a "regular guy" tab on his shoulder, I've transitioned from bolt guns to semi-auto's for big game hunting. I still can't get the bare/slick weapon to a weight below the new 5-6 pound bolt guns, but the platforms are reliable enough, and fast enough, for me to take that hit. I'm also enjoying the employment of these rifles in the field. I always have great conversations with the guys carrying their featherweight bolt guns when we pass each other on the trail.

 

[ActualCryptid]

As an afterthought, there is one other downside to a semiauto.

In a hide or treestand, i have had a dumb buck walk by before I'm completely settled in. IMO a manual action allows me to much more quietly chamber a round, ever so slowly, than I could reliably do with a semiauto that relies on the recoil spring to ensure the round seats and bolt closes fully.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I got rid of my large frame AR a long time ago but I really enjoy shooting a 5.56 AR, and regularly shoot it out to 1K. If the need is for something larger than 5.56, I use a bolt action, as reloading the ammo for the bigger cartridges is easier to deal with after being shot with a bolt gun.

A bolt gun is about a 1/4 MOA more accurate for me to shoot over a AR.

 

[bigjake83]

not a PRS shooter of any note but:

"Pull trigger, bang, click" is seared into my memory from PI. That good foillow-through and a good wind call are the money makers when you're shooting a 500yd line with an M4 or raggedy M16A2 and M855, and it doesn't become less true when you use a better rifle, better ammo, and longer distance. I particularly notice this on Ar10s and when I got behind a SCAR17.

The thing I also notice is that most semiautos also buck the scope more (round for round), which can make self-spotting impacts tougher until your flight time gets longer than the action cycle. For me, it took time to adjust to that and I ended up preferring to run lower magnification as a result, like running a 3-15x at 12 instead of 15 just to reduce how jarring the action cycle is. Piston guns/piston uppers seem to be worse about it, but that could just be unfamiliarity.

Which brings me to: gas tuning. I think where many shooters go wrong on ARs specifically is having one overgassed, which exacerbates the above. probably less an issue for the average Hide bubba, but worth mentioning in the context of gaming, especially if you run a silencer or handload. Getting the rifle to run reliably without being overgassed like the aforementioned raggedy military rifle will make a smoother, and more precise weapon in the hands of a good shooter. You may find that the load your bolt action liked does not play well in a semi-auto without being overgassed.

And since I mentioned handloads, mag compatibility seems to be a turnoff for folks running rounds outside the STANAG family. Grendel had mag issue for a while, I have not played with ARC or Valkyrie to see if they also struggle but the STANAG box and the DPMS/SR25 mag can limit some of the newer loads or feed less reliably, especially the long-nose/fat-body rounds. Just another quirk to consider before you start plotting a 6 Dasher build. IIRC there are some threads about modding mags for the Dasher specifically in a gas gun. Steel body mags are your friend in the ARs as well as they give you a little more space to stretch seating depth, KAC mags have been the gold standard in the SR25 platform as well.

I built a straight-pull .223 when Lantac was still offering them here in the states and it's an odd duck. Recoil impulse like a turn-bolt, cycles faster than turn bolt but slower than a semiauto, and since there's no rear charging to worry about you can get as close on the glass or mount a cheek rest without issue. I would probably jump at trying another straight-pull AR-based rifle if I could find one that I liked.

Shooting PRS is a completely different animal, 2 minutes goes by real God Damn quick! And depending on the requirements for the current stage that you're on you will be engaging multiple targets all at different distances and even some moving targets such as a Texas Star or spinners all from Various shooting positions that you need to quickly move to in that 2 min time frame... sound fun? , cuz it is.

Current production Precision AR rifles are not jarring or hard to follow/sight impacts or trace. (IE, JP Rifles)

Myself as well as others prefer to build thier own PRS AR's not only are all my rifles guaranteed to shoot Sub Half MOA but they are well thought out and dialed in for very minimal Sight Disruption under recoil, and that is achieved by bringing many operational components in these machines we Call Sporting Rifles all together for a well balanced harmony.

Not only is Gas Regulation imperative but so is regulating Reciprocating Mass, spring rate and selecting the correct barrel length and contour for a perfectly balanced barrel harmonics and optimal gas Port location for your specific caliber along with a effective and adjustable Muzzle device like the APA Gen3 will bridge the gap between the behaviors of Bolt Rifles VS Gassers.

And lastly fitting the rifle and optics to you for proper eye relief, length of pull and cheek weld height, once you get all the above shit done then you can worry about load development and mag selection or light Vs Heavy projectiles.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Easier to get reliable/repeatable performance out of a bolt action plus with all of the newer "budget" tactical rifles out there it's more accessible to the average shooter. Howa and Tikka both have rifles with magazines/adjustable stocks that are a little over a thousand dollars.

which howa or tikka do you recommend

 

[ActualCryptid]

Shooting PRS is a completely different animal, 2 minutes goes by real God Damn quick! And depending on the requirements for the current stage that you're on you will be engaging multiple targets all at different distances and even some moving targets such as a Texas Star or spinners all from Various shooting positions that you need to quickly move to in that 2 min time frame... sound fun? , cuz it is.

Current production Precision AR rifles are not jarring or hard to follow/sight impacts or trace. (IE, JP Rifles)

Myself as well as others prefer to build thier own PRS AR's not only are all my rifles guaranteed to shoot Sub Half MOA but they are well thought out and dialed in for very minimal Sight Disruption under recoil, and that is achieved by bringing many operational components in these machines we Call Sporting Rifles all together for a well balanced harmony.

Not only is Gas Regulation imperative but so is regulating Reciprocating Mass, spring rate and selecting the correct barrel length and contour for a perfectly balanced barrel harmonics and optimal gas Port location for your specific caliber along with a effective and adjustable Muzzle device like the APA Gen3 will bridge the gap between the behaviors of Bolt Rifles VS Gassers.

And lastly fitting the rifle and optics to you for proper eye relief, length of pull and cheek weld height, once you get all the above shit done then you can worry about load development and mag selection or light Vs Heavy projectiles.

i haven't played yet but thought about it. What I would really like is more of the Brutality style matches. other than the aforementioned straight pull, I don't really have a gun that would hang in PRS; even the Cross and my AR10 would be putting me technologically behind the other shooters for both weight (both are under 9lb scoped and silenced) and caliber (.308 because I have oodles of it) so i satisfy myself with a mix of local NRA Hunter matches and club matches, and some nice peaceful music making on the lovely array of gongs.

Mostly I just don't want folks thinking I'm putting myself out there as a serious competitor with serious competition focus, when my major metric is just beating the last group I shot and making sure I can drop what I'm aiming at confidently on the first shot.

 

[diggler1833]

As someone who battles a feral hog problem, the semi-auto (specifically the AR platform) distinguishes itself as the best way to deliver fast and relatively accurate fire on multiple, moving targets.

I say "relatively accurate" because frequently the rate of fire split times are one second or less, and the limiting factor is how quickly you can transition between targets.

General precision does take more application of fundamentals in an AR that one can finagle around with a bolt gun (firing hand position and grip force etc...) I have found...but that may be just me.

Regarding effective range, I see no limitations to hunting situations within the effective distance of the popular cartridges used. For an 18" .308, you're under ~2K FPS before 350 yards...and just about any off-the-shelf rifle is capable of accuracy of within the vitals of medium-sized game at that distance.

Yes, target shooting distance is usually limited more with a semi-auto as barrels are shorter, and the gas system does reduce velocity some. However, I'd be willing to bet that difficulty in peak accuracy at distance is more closely related to how much harder it is for many to drive a large frame AR. That lock time isn't a joke, and trigger manipulation flaws get exaggerated pretty quickly.

My woods rifle, and training rifles for the girls (collapsible buttstock FTW) have all become ARs. With cartridges like the 6.8, 6.5G, and 6ARC, they hit well above their weight class.

 

[BCP]

As someone who battles a feral hog problem

AR15 are fantastic for that. I'm supposed to take my 716i to hunt javelina but it's probably overkill.

 

[roostercogburn98]

If you say so,
I find my ARs to be infinitely repeatable and accurate it's how you drive them

Today the platforms are so much better than they were in the past...

Even with good fundamentals and good ammo, the old A2s were capable of so much more than people give them credit for. Shooting the All Army Small Arms comps many many years ago, the AMU “loaner” guns and Black Hills 77 OTM made for some decent shooting out to 500 yards with iron sights.

 

[diggler1833]

AR15 are fantastic for that. I'm supposed to take my 716i to hunt javelina but it's probably overkill.

I use both the .308, 6.8 SPC, and 6.5 Grendel. They are fantastic. No overkill for the damage that one can do to you if you end up on the wrong end of a tusk.

The .308 offers increased lethality with less-expensive (standard bullet) ammunition. The penalty for .308 use is usually weight. However, I was dropping hogs (hydrostatic shock) more frequently using 150gr Hornady Interlocks, than I was using premium bullets in the Grendel or SPC.

Good luck on your javelina hunt!

 

[diggler1833]

Even with good fundamentals and good ammo, the old A2s were capable of so much more than people give them credit for. Shooting the All Army Small Arms comps many many years ago, the AMU “loaner” guns and Black Hills 77 OTM made for some decent shooting out to 500 yards with iron sights.

I was once good enough when I was in to compete in the Interservice Service Rifle Matches as a member of the 2d MARDIV team. We shot against the USAMU and Marine Corps Rifle Team (among a whole bunch of other teams). Those guys could flat out shoot.

We did have to use the 80gr SMK when we shot from the 1K yard line though. The 77gr SMK fell apart after about 800.

I've told the story to my friends many a time, but my second day shooting at the 1K line at Quantico in the summer of 2001, I was sharing a target with a USAMU guy. We had ridiculous wind that day, no shit about 12-15MPH constant full-value with frequent gusts up to 20. That guy and I talked wind calls (he talked, I listened more) and I spotted for him after he went 29 clicks right. Frigging 29 (about 150" with 1/2 minute rear sight clicks). I remember it because we were on target #29. I lost trace at about the 5-600 yard line, but his bullet started out a target and a half right and was moving left fast when I lost trace. Sure as hell his target went down...and came back up with a "10". I think he shot a low 190/200 possible that match (yard line). I crushed it with a 169 IIRC . My "Wind-Fu" game has never been on that level.

I pulled the target for the guy that won it overall in 2001. He shot a 995/1000 possible points across all matches. He dropped 2 points in the 200 offhand (20 shots), 2 points in the 300 rapid, and 1 point at the 1K yard line after he cleaned everything at the 600.

Its the Indian most of the time.

 

[roostercogburn98]

I was once good enough when I was in to compete in the Interservice Service Rifle Matches as a member of the 2d MARDIV team. We shot against the USAMU and Marine Corps Rifle Team (among a whole bunch of other teams). Those guys could flat out shoot.

We did have to use the 80gr SMK when we shot from the 1K yard line though. The 77gr SMK fell apart after about 800.

I've told the story to my friends many a time, but my second day shooting at the 1K line at Quantico in the summer of 2001, I was sharing a target with a USAMU guy. We had ridiculous wind that day, no shit about 12-15MPH constant full-value with frequent gusts up to 20. That guy and I talked wind calls (he talked, I listened more) and I spotted for him after he went 29 clicks right. Frigging 29 (about 150" with 1/2 minute rear sight clicks). I remember it because we were on target #29. I lost trace at about the 5-600 yard line, but his bullet started out a target and a half right and was moving left fast when I lost trace. Sure as hell his target went down...and came back up with a "10". I think he shot a low 190/200 possible that match (yard line). I crushed it with a 169 IIRC . My "Wind-Fu" game has never been on that level.

I pulled the target for the guy that won it overall in 2001. He shot a 995/1000 possible points across all matches. He dropped 2 points in the 200 offhand (20 shots), 2 points in the 300 rapid, and 1 point at the 1K yard line after he cleaned everything at the 600.

Its the Indian most of the time.

Those guys can shoot, it was impressive to watch them and learn what I could in such short times.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

Wish I had something useful to add here, but bolt guns bore me despite being easier to get hits with, and I've never shot a large frame AR that I liked enough to shoot more than once, much less own one. So I'm an AR15 guy all the way.

 

[Gohring65]

A buddy and I built a couple decently accurate 20” ARs, I’ve found with a good optic with a 3 power low end up to 15-18 power high end they are extremely capable for fast paced shooting. More effective than a bolt gun for sure, where my bolt gun shines is we can’t seem to get a single digit SD with our gassers and it starts to show at 600 and beyond. (Cheap 75 grain bthp is probably the culprit) How important is that? Probably not much on Moa sized targets. If we’re talking minute of torso accuracy then I’m going to pick my AR every time. If I want to hit a 4in plate at 1k I’ll try it with my gasser, it might take me 20-30 rounds to get a impact, but it will have data gathering benefits in the process.

 

[strikeeagle1]

In a hide or treestand, i have had a dumb buck walk by before I'm completely settled in. IMO a manual action allows me to much more quietly chamber a round, ever so slowly, than I could reliably do with a semiauto that relies on the recoil spring to ensure the round seats and bolt closes fully.

The wheel house of the forward assist.

 

[bigjake83]

I just got back from the range today, setting up a upper for a friend with a CLE 20" Bartlein. These were shot during Gas Block Adjustment. Both are 5rd Groups with Black Hills 77gr.

 

[hlee]

It’s been a couple of years since I have shot a PRS event. But, I found that, most of the time, I had an easier time tracking the target through recoil with a gasser (6.5 Grendel) than I did finding the target with a bolt gun (6.5 creedmoor) after cycling the action. I’m just better “married to” the gas gun than the bolt gun.

I score better with the bolt gun on prone stages, modified prone stages, and any stage with a stable prop. But, stages with unstable props (like a 45 deg slope, or a rotating ‘tic Tac toe board’ to shoot from) I generally score better with the gasser.

Basically, if the problem to solve is the target array, I score better with a bolt gun. But, if the problem to solve is the prop, I score better with a gas gun.

 

[hlee]

The wheel house of the forward assist.

Or you can chamber a round when you settle into your hide. I’ll never figure out why people are chambering rounds with the buck of a lifetime in the scope…

 

[bigjake83]

Here she is all finished...

CLE 20" Bartlein / 4 Groove / 1-7.7 Twist / CLE Match Chamber / Rifle Length Gas / M110 Contour / .875 Gas Block journal / 5/8x24 Treads / 11° Target Crown / WOA Competition Barrel exstenion polished to a mirror finish.

SA Adjustable. 875 Gas Block.

APA Gen3 Little Bastard Adjustable Muzzle Brake.

Seekins Precision IRMT-3 V3 Billet AR-15 Upper Receiver and 15" Handguard.

Raptor Ambi Charging Handle.

Seekins Precision SP223 Gen2 Billet Ambi Lower.

Oversized JP Micro Take Down Pins hand fitted front and rear for rock solid lock-up.

Triggertech Single stage AR15 Diamond with flat Trigger Shoe and TT Ambi Safety.

JP Standard SCS.

JP Enhanced Buffer Tube.

Rubber City Armory Titanium BCG, 7.8 oz

MagPul PRS Light Adjustable Stock.


As Pictured above the two 5rd groups were shot by loading and firing 1rd at a time during Gas Block Adjustment waiting for Lock Back and a 3 o'clock ejector pattern with Black Hills 77gr, the orange targets are 1/2". I'm confident with handloads it will be a consistent Sub Half MOA shooter.

There is almost zero recoil with this set-up making it a absolute pleasure to shoot.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

Oversized JP Micro Take Down Pins hand fitted front and rear for rock solid lock-up.

How much material did you have to remove and how did you do it?

 

[bigjake83]

How much material did you have to remove and how did you do it?

Probably around .001-.002 with a Pin Guage and 600 grit lapping compound. Start with the lower, lapping until the take down pins and are able to tap in with a AR-15 armorer's hammer then move on to the upper. Usually the front take down lug on the upper is the only one that needs any lapping.

 

[sinister]

In 1989 I gave a real-world warning order to one of our sections. They were to cover an infil-exfil lane for friendly helicopters against a number of positively identified, mutually-supporting quad-.50 cal anti-aircraft positions that could depress to ground direct-fire mode.

Snipers had personal choice of M24s and M21s. Winners live, losers die.

I was surprised at the number who chose the gas guns. Maybe I shouldn't have been, but that was operator's choice.

 

[bigjake83]

Even with the flyers it avaged Sub 1/2 MOA

 

[diggler1833]

In 1989 I gave a real-world warning order to one of our sections. They were to cover an infil-exfil lane for friendly helicopters against a number of positively identified, mutually-supporting quad-.50 cal anti-aircraft positions that could depress to ground direct-fire mode.

Snipers had personal choice of M24s and M21s. Winners live, losers die.

I was surprised at the number who chose the gas guns. Maybe I shouldn't have been, but that was operator's choice.

Not directed at you at all boss, more of a caveat on what you posted.

I think in a "game" where suppressive fire becomes a real thing, a bolt gun falls behind.

It is not that accurate fire can't be extremely suppressive, but being able to deliver more rounds faster sure has a way of keeping more heads down and reducing movement.

A funny story from when I went through a PMI course back in 2000; We had a MGySgt (I don't even know what his job was...he just strolled around Courthouse Bay and interrupted various classes). He was double distinguished with a rifle, so the kind of guy you listened to when he spoke. He said of suppressive fire "You want suppressive fire? You don't need to shoot a thousand rounds...You shoot the motherfucker who just stuck his head up in the face...and all of his buddies will keep their heads down". Of course, a year later 9/11 happened, and we all learned our own philosophy on suppressive fire over the next decade. I just remember that old guy because he constantly shucked the fundamentals we taught every time he came by. Everything was "A communist plot to destroy marksmanship in the Marine Corps"!

Getting back on track; a 30 round mag with an AR has the ability to lay some hellacious accurate fire at a pretty good distance. My last Infantry Trophy Team match, the team I was on won (I think it was just a Camp Lejeune thing...so not super high-level). Regardless, even with slight tweaks to the course of fire, you'll frequently see almost a full mag dump in time limit of only 50 seconds. That's ~ 25 rounds fired, with an expected 23-25 hits on a B-Mod/E silhouette at 500 yards with open sights...in 50 seconds. I never got to shoot one with an RCO/ACOG...don't even know if that is a thing anymore.

I don't shoot PRS out here in the country. However, I'm always impressed by the skills possessed by a lot of shooters when I see videos. I'm not trying to compare disciplines at all, but more just trying to say that in an extremely roundabout way that within the max effective range of a cartridge, a relatively accurate (SPR) gas gun in the hands of someone with a touch of skill is a formidable thing.

 

[lennyo3034]

Shot the 2 day matches with gasser last year. Switched to bolt gun in open this year and while my scores are better I don't seem to be having as much fun. Likely going back to gas gun next year. Need to see if JP will put a Craddock barrel in one of their otherwise complete builds.

I'm actually a better positional shooter than prone, oddly more accurate shooting off a single bag than off a bench. Biggest difference between my gas gun and bolt gun is the gas gun seems to take longer to settle on the bag, negating any speed advantage of the semi. Most stages are one shot per target anyways and I cycle bolt when transitioning targets so very little speed advantage of gasser.

 

[bigjake83]

Shot the 2 day matches with gasser last year. Switched to bolt gun in open this year and while my scores are better I don't seem to be having as much fun. Likely going back to gas gun next year. Need to see if JP will put a Craddock barrel in one of their otherwise complete builds.

I'm actually a better positional shooter than prone, oddly more accurate shooting off a single bag than off a bench. Biggest difference between my gas gun and bolt gun is the gas gun seems to take longer to settle on the bag, negating any speed advantage of the semi. Most stages are one shot per target anyways and I cycle bolt when transitioning targets so very little speed advantage of gasser.

I actually just put together a JP LRI-20 with a 24" CLE 6.5CM Bartlein Barrel and it's a laser..

JP and Seekins are definitely my two favorite Chassis systems to work with.

I haven't started Load development on the JP yet but it sure loves that cheap Winchester USA 140gr Ammo, I've had quite a few groups in the .2-.3 MOA Range.

 

[bigjake83]

Shot the 2 day matches with gasser last year. Switched to bolt gun in open this year and while my scores are better I don't seem to be having as much fun. Likely going back to gas gun next year. Need to see if JP will put a Craddock barrel in one of their otherwise complete builds.

I'm actually a better positional shooter than prone, oddly more accurate shooting off a single bag than off a bench. Biggest difference between my gas gun and bolt gun is the gas gun seems to take longer to settle on the bag, negating any speed advantage of the semi. Most stages are one shot per target anyways and I cycle bolt when transitioning targets so very little speed advantage of gasser.

I'll be at the range again today, I want to see how it shoots some of the Burger Pills. I'll post the groups and the specs of JP 6.5CM

 

[otnot]

I actually just put together a JP LRI-20 with a 24" CLE 6.5CM Bartlein Barrel and it's a laser..
View attachment 8174034

JP and Seekins are definitely my two favorite Chassis systems to work with.

View attachment 8174134View attachment 8174132

I haven't started Load development on the JP yet but it sure loves that cheap Winchester USA 140gr Ammo, I've had quite a few groups in the .2-.3 MOA Range.

View attachment 8174133

After reading Jp’s reloading for semiautomatic rifles, I tried a 123 grain bullet in my JP 6.5 cm. It shoots a lot flatter than the 140 gr at 2900 fps. And it groups well out to a 1000.

https://jprifles.com/document_pdfs/JP%20Loading%20Information%202015.09.29.pdf

 

[Zoomie]

I think part of it is what you're comfortable shooting and what your objectives are- and that may not be static. I've shot .308 for a long time, some bolt some AR10. For the latter, if I needed to put rounds on target, that was my go-to platform. It eventually became my "utility" rifle because I became comfortable with that particular capability. But I would say in say a hunting situation at distance or in mountainous terrain where that first shot really counted and I was less concerned with a follow up or two, the bolt may be my preference.

AR15 vs AR10 is potentially a whole different discussion. Short version is that for me, I went through the 18 inch precision AR15 phase and frankly the AR10 felt like it did the job better all around. YMMV.

 

[BCP]

After reading Jp’s reloading for semiautomatic rifles, I tried a 123 grain bullet in my JP 6.5 cm. It shoots a lot flatter than the 140 gr at 2900 fps. And it groups well out to a 1000.

https://jprifles.com/document_pdfs/JP%20Loading%20Information%202015.09.29.pdf

I loaded 123s for ~2800 in a 260 that I used for 600 fclass they fly great. Right now I have a Creedmoor and loadimg staball with eld-x but can’t test them because of fire danger restrictions

 

[phantasm]

I just got back from the range today, setting up a upper for a friend with a CLE 20" Bartlein. These were shot during Gas Block Adjustment. Both are 5rd Groups with Black Hills 77gr. View attachment 8173347View attachment 8173346


View attachment 8173349

Damn dude. How the hell do you get groups that tight? lol. My best has been .931 MOA at 100 yards w/ Nosler Match Grade 77gr out of my 16" Noveske stainless barrel.

 

[ActualCryptid]

Or you can chamber a round when you settle into your hide. I’ll never figure out why people are chambering rounds with the buck of a lifetime in the scope…

Last buck i shot walked into my line of sight while I was only halfway up the tree. While i had my hands in him a second one walked into view and if I had needed the meat I would have preferred my chances playing red-light-green-light with the single shot rather than trying to ride the bolt home.

If I can time it right and be all the way up the tree before daybreak its not an issue, but sometimes i gotta hit the pump and sip on the way for a dump. It is what it is.

 

[BCP]

Damn dude. How the hell do you get groups that tight? lol. My best has been .931 MOA at 100 yards w/ Nosler Match Grade 77gr out of my 16" Noveske stainless barrel.

View attachment 8174558

If you handload make up one with a flat base varmint bullet and a moderate powder charge. They are good for plinking, coyotes, banging steel too. I shoot lots of 69-77 handloads because I bought a ton of blemished bullets for 12cents a pop several years ago but for most people a 55gr varmint bullet will do everything you need an AR to do.

 

[bigjake83]

Damn dude. How the hell do you get groups that tight? lol. My best has been .931 MOA at 100 yards w/ Nosler Match Grade 77gr out of my 16" Noveske stainless barrel.

View attachment 8174558

You have to do your Kegel exercises.

 

[LRRPF52]

Hammer swing is the main difference between an AR and a bolt gun when looking at precision. Bolt guns only have to worry about pre-vibration travel of the firing pin.

ARs have to worry about the mass of the hammer swinging and that transferring energy through the hammer spring into the lower, then impact on the firing pin, and pre-vibration travel of the firing pin inside the bolt.

One set of approaches to this is the low mass hammer (with hammer integrity/durability a consideration), and a firing pin design that doesn’t contact the inside of the bolt as much.

This is why fundamentals must be really dialed-in on gas guns, especially ones that fire larger cartridges than .223 Rem/5.56 NATO.

Tom Beckstand did a great article on all of this that went into the weeds, with a lot of testing and things you can duplicate, rather than lore and mystique. He tested several AR triggers and used the Bull Bags method for frontal support, just in front of the Magwell under the handguard vs far out in front.

I know when I get on a bolt gun, it feels like cheating. We shot these in close succession back and forth between AR-15s and bolt guns this past weekend during some long range shooting with .223, 6.5 Grendel, and .308 Win across many different rifles. You can see and feel the difference in how each behaves. I like gassers because of being able to stay inside the optic and transitioning to or following-up on TGTs without breaking my hold.

 

[Zoomie]

I will have to find the video, but I once watched Beckstrand take the 16 inch stock Virtus with Hornady 5.56 73 gr out over 1,100 meters and thought- is there anything this SOB can't do.