Effects/Benifits of training with steel case ammo (6.5 Grendel)

[Peter Laurvick]

New to the page. Been reading and learning for a while.

My question is: What are the long term effects on accuracy when firing steel case ammo?

Ive got a high end 6.5 Grendel. 20" barrel, Timney 3lb, Magpul PRS, Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42mm Tremor3. It only has a few hundred rounds through it total. All it's seen is Factory Hornady Black 123gr ELD-M and 123gr SST. It shoot consistently .5-.75 MOA 5 shot groups out to 500yds (so far).

I need more practice and trigger time, with wind and unusual positions (for hunting and potential PRS matches), it's hard to ignore Wolf 6.5 Grendel steel case ammo for $120/500rnds. especially considering Hornady Black is $1 a round easy.

I know it will lessen the barrel life somewhat if I use steel, I'm not worried about maybe breaking a bolt of extractor (seen little evidence that is even a problem with the ammo). I want to know what experience/ evidence is telling me steel will or will-not ruin the accuracy of my barrel if I say shot 500 rounds of steel, then went back to what I know will shoot .5-.75MOA.

Side question along the same idea: What about buying a bottom dollar extra 6.5 Grendel upper to slap my same lower, Bipod, and Scope (Using QD levers) onto to train exclusively with steel ammo on?

 

[Peter Laurvick]

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[Peter Laurvick]

[No message]

 

[deersniper]

Steel won't hurt the barrel at all. The bullets are still copper.

Ammo with steel bullets like some of that German DAG 308 will reduce barrel life.

 

[powderBurnz]

i think hes more concerned with the steel cases cycling thru the chamber. i wondered the same but just went with hornady black.

 

[Peter Laurvick]

i think hes more concerned with the steel cases cycling thru the chamber. i wondered the same but just went with hornady black.

Well yes... to an extent. I mean if I can't get it to fire then what's the point. If it jams every now and then, I'm not worried, if anything that's more practice at remedial actions. I'm worried about degradation of the accuracy of the barrel.

 

[Mike_in_FL]

I was told in a class that steel on steel might accelerate wear on the extractor. Unless you're somewhere that replacement parts are unavailable, I don't see it being much of a problem. If you're willing to buy an upper and more ammo, maybe consider getting into reloading.

The complete RCBS rockchucker setup is usually around $300. $600 or so would get you that and a Chargemaster. Or just buy a press, chargemaster, dies, and a trimmer. I think it would be less frustrating if you practice with similar quality ammo to what you're buying and it's just not that hard to roll your own.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

My limited research indicates that the Wolf 6.5 Grendel steel case loading employs a bi-metal magnetic jacketed bullet. So bore life concern is not misplaced.

I would not worry if I were to be shooting it from a basic, run-of-the-mill barrel, but a high end? I wouldn't do it; and the reason is because of your obvious concern about it. Where bore life is concerned, choosing ammunition is a pay me now/pay me later proposition.

Stick with non-magnetic projectiles, or spend the money for the the less critical upper you mentioned. TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch...Larry Niven).

Personally, I'd buy the upper and several cases of the Wolf. You can never get too much practice.

Greg

 

[Peter Laurvick]

I was told in a class that steel on steel might accelerate wear on the extractor. Unless you're somewhere that replacement parts are unavailable, I don't see it being much of a problem. If you're willing to buy an upper and more ammo, maybe consider getting into reloading.

The complete RCBS rockchucker setup is usually around $300. $600 or so would get you that and a Chargemaster. Or just buy a press, chargemaster, dies, and a trimmer. I think it would be less frustrating if you practice with similar quality ammo to what you're buying and it's just not that hard to roll your own.

I do reload. And eventually that's the plan for 6.5 Grendel as well. My initial problem is Brass, Projectiles, Dies, and a Shellplate. And with that caliber it's not like .223 or .308 where you can find cheap Mil Surplus everywhere. It will probably cost me $150 in equipment to get set up for the caliber and brass is near $1 a round, projectiles near $.50, it would be more accurate I'm sure. But I still wouldn't be able to reload for as cheap as steel.

I guess a good good question for the reloaders that do 6.5 Grendel, how much is it costing you per round not including brass?

For now im shooting factory ammo, saving the brass and building up my stockpile.

 

[JMcBurn]

I don't reload 6.5 grendel, but here are some examples of costs

Max load of 8208 28.5 gr: pound of powder say is $30 so 12.2 cents
123gr Sierra 40 cents
120gr Hornady 31 cents
3 cents for primer

so like 55 cents or 46 cents

 

[skinnj1]

On the Interwebs you can find an experiment where someone compared barrel life degredation of several identical 5.56 rifles which underwent same firing schedule with different ammo types - wolf was the worst as far as wearing out the barrel-ie 2x faster.....it has always been my opinion that it should be utilized only when quantity is the most important quality,

 

[SDet]

On the Interwebs you can find an experiment where someone compared barrel life degredation of several identical 5.56 rifles which underwent same firing schedule with different ammo types - wolf was the worst as far as wearing out the barrel-ie 2x faster.....it has always been my opinion that it should be utilized only when quantity is the most important quality,

True, but it was several thousand rounds. We're talking say $3000 in ammo for a grendel to wear it out, if you only shot steel. At that point, you'll hopefully be proficient enough to justify a quality barrel and handloads. But it likely won't take the barrel life to get to that point.

I used the steel case for break in and goofing around. Maybe 2-300 rounds, but it's still a 5/8-3/4 moa gun. You'll gain more as a shooter, with practice, than the gun will lose in precision.

 

[Peter Laurvick]

True, but it was several thousand rounds. We're talking say $3000 in ammo for a grendel to wear it out, if you only shot steel. At that point, you'll hopefully be proficient enough to justify a quality barrel and handloads. But it likely won't take the barrel life to get to that point.

I used the steel case for break in and goofing around. Maybe 2-300 rounds, but it's still a 5/8-3/4 moa gun. You'll gain more as a shooter, with practice, than the gun will lose in precision.

Thank you greatly for the input. This is the kind of info I was looking for!

 

[SDet]

The referenced test
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

 

[Ledzep]

Yep, issues isn't so much the cases as it is the jackets. Steel on steel wears the lands down faster. Steel cases alone won't affect accuracy, nor wear out the chamber appreciably more. You might get faster extractor wear, but that's about it.

It's all a trade-off. By the time you buy 3000 rounds of steel cased/steel jacket ammo, you've probably saved enough for a new barrel vs. buying copper jacket, especially in the case of the 6.5 Grendel. Pretty big price jump.

 

[skinnj1]

True, but it was several thousand rounds. We're talking say $3000 in ammo for a grendel to wear it out, if you only shot steel. At that point, you'll hopefully be proficient enough to justify a quality barrel and handloads. But it likely won't take the barrel life to get to that point.

I used the steel case for break in and goofing around. Maybe 2-300 rounds, but it's still a 5/8-3/4 moa gun. You'll gain more as a shooter, with practice, than the gun will lose in precision.

It was several thousand rounds in a caliber with great barrel life (.223) -6.5 grendel results will be less fired before degradation. I speak from the postion of someone who has had a reamer in this caliber for more than a little while and made more than one grendel barrel...OP and everyone else do what you want cost benifit wise but I perfer not to abuse the barrels in my precision guns even though I can replace them cheap. From my point of view, I consider steel cased russian ammo in a Stoner platform the equivalent of dating someone with known social diseases....

 

[Greg Langelius *]

IMHO, a barrel is a normal wear item. In a properly constructed AR Upper, a barrel replacement is pretty straightforward and achievable.

Moreover, the cost of a barrel replacement at a sub-precision level is probably more than covered by the ammunition cost savings, same with extractors. I figure by the time you've reached the point where a barrel replacement is needed, it's pretty likely you'll already have the minimum tools needed onhand anyway

Mostly the question for me is what should be about what to do with the money saved. I would (have) invested it in a barrel and the tools needed to replace it, and still came out (IMHO) ahead.

Lucky Gunner Test

With the steel ammo, problems began to appear (mostly) after the 5,000 round mark in the 10,000 round test.

The conditions the rifles were subjected to included sustained rapid firing at an intensity and duration that I'd never allow with my own rifles, and undoubtedly contributed heavily to the number and severity of wear and malfunctions.

Basically, I'd go much easier on the rifle, and replace the barrel (with the .223/5.56) somewhere well before shooting 5,000 rounds.

I use (some) Tula (and have reloaded some of the Tula steel case, but that's a story for another day, and my overall view is that I definitely don't recommend it) .223/5.56 55FMJ.

Each chambering is different, I would have no issues about using steel cased .223/5.56 FMJ ammo in a sub-precision rifle, even exclusively, and I would exercise more reasonable care about how intensely I punished my rifle in the process. The bimetal jackets are most likely the largest wear producing factor.

Greg

 

[Peter Laurvick]

IMHO, a barrel is a normal wear item. In a properly constructed AR Upper, a barrel replacement is pretty straightforward and achievable.

Moreover, the cost of a barrel replacement at a sub-precision level is probably more than covered by the ammunition cost savings, same with extractors. I figure by the time you've reached the point where a barrel replacement is needed, it's pretty likely you'll already have the minimum tools needed onhand anyway

Lucky Gunner Test

Greg

Thanks for the input! That's kind of the direction I'm leaning as well. Not so much worried about premature wear so much as training and keeping at least 1MOA accuracy throughout. And hell, I can just make that an excuse to get a Carbon barrel later anyways

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Simply put, primarily with the 5.56/.223, my accuracy goals would be less stringent with steel case FMJ ammo. I'd be happy with a consistent 2MOA or or better performance.

IMHO, 1 MOA implies a higher, more precision, accuracy demand. And this may be possible with the Grendel, I just don't have any experience with the chambering, so I can't be more specific.

Greg

 

[Peter Laurvick]

To be clear. I'm not trying to get 1 MOA with steel case. With quality brass ammo like Hornady I am getting consistent groups from .5-.8 MOA (5shot groups, no calling "fliers" lol). I'd be happy with 2-2.5MOA groupings out of steel. But if I shot say 500 rounds of steel would I still be able to maintain my current accuracy with the ammo I already know shoots sub MOA

 

[sheepdog697]

steel cases themselves wont necessarily affect accuracy. However, i would think that ON AVERAGE steel ammo will have a lower accuracy because it is "cheaper" so the manufactures don't push out match quality ammunition in a budget load. Just my opinion. I don't think you will really have issues with them, however you obviously cant save them to reload.

 

[...]

steel is just fine to run through your gun........

ive yet to see any evidence what so ever to indicate that it will increase wear of your chamber/ ectractor/ ect. to any noticeable extent.

personally i run steel almost exclusively in all of my handguns...and ar15s......i have TENS OF THOUSANDS of rounds of steel through my guns, and have seen 0 evidence of accelerated wear.

the steel in the round is MUCH softer than the steel in your barrel.....so its not gonna wear it.

 

[Ledzep]

steel is just fine to run through your gun........

ive yet to see any evidence what so ever to indicate that it will increase wear of your chamber/ ectractor/ ect. to any noticeable extent.

personally i run steel almost exclusively in all of my handguns...and ar15s......i have TENS OF THOUSANDS of rounds of steel through my guns, and have seen 0 evidence of accelerated wear.

the steel in the round is MUCH softer than the steel in your barrel.....so its not gonna wear it.

There are actually documented torture tests that show increased extractor wear with steel-cased ammo. Seems to round off the corners a bit which can lead to some issues way down the road.

Also, steel jackets do wear out rifling faster. That has also been documented. Groove dia. stays the same, but the lands get eaten away at a faster rate until there's not enough there to grab the bullet and they start keyholing. I'm sure not all copper plated steel jacket ammo is the same. I remember reading about US military tests with it that showed little or no difference in barrel life (.30-06 or .308, I can't remember), but we're talking about (presumably) lowest bidder russian stuff here so who knows.

Both of these things happen at a slow enough rate, and steel cased ammo is typically priced low enough that round-for-round the money saved is more than enough to buy a new barrel, extractor, whatever over the round count necessary to show these problems.

Here's a link to the test I'm referring to;

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

 

[hlee]

Here is my question with using wolf ammunition. Does it make sense to buy a budget rifle/upper and budget ammunition for precision rifle practice? If 2-3 moa is the best your budget setup can achieve, and your expectations or your premium setup is less than 1 moa, are you actually doing yourself any service by using a setup that makes difficult to identify (or masks) shooter induced errors? Personally, I don't buy into the idea that "that rifle is wasted on me at my shooting level." If you are practicing a skill, it pays dividends to eliminate all exogenous sources of error. Now to the question at hand. I have never seriously considered pushing bimetal jacketed bullets down any of my rifles. But, I have considered steel cased ammunition- Hornady has a steel match loading for a few calibers. But, the cost difference between the steel match and their brass-cased match loading is a few dollars per box, which translates to a few cents per round. And, you only get a nonreloadable steel case out of the deal. Because I have reloading setup I buy only brass cased ammunition, and the cost of expensive factory ammunition is amortized into the cost of reloading. For my money, the cost of a new budget upper and cases of budget ammunition was better spent on a reloading press/bench/dies/can be used for multiple rifles/calibers and are not "normal wear items."

For or what it is worth, I made my money back on the reloading setup by reloading the casings I had saved from my hunting rifle. With the casings I had saved, it was cheaper to buy the press and accessories, build the bench, and reload than it was to replace the ammunition with factory loads. And, the ammunition is more consistent and shoots better than any factory load I have found in that caliber.

I feel I get get better practice with dry-fire than I do with blaster-grade ammo.

 

[supercorndogs]

I ran 8k steel case through a 7.62x39 AR15 I had. Shot like shit when I started and finished. 3 MOA or so. I wouldn't expect to practice precision rifle shooting with crappy ammo.

 

[vmpglenn]

Just buy the steel cased stuff then replace the factory bullets with better ones of the same weight (100gr). Apparently the Wolf's poor accuracy is due in part to undersized bullets. You can get fairly decent practice ammo then for under $0.60/round, no case prep, no looking for brass after shooting.

 

[C. Stevens]

It's costing me 47¢/rd to reload 123gr A-Max and BL-C(2)... I also purchased 500rds of wolf. Sometimes you just want to shoot and not spend a fortune. I don't always have time to reload. I also might not ever shoot 5000 rds out of my rifle so it is what it is. I'll just replace something if it messes up. I've got a 22" Satern Fluted barrel and Maxim bolt. Paid $320 shipped I think in a group buy on MSRhunt.com
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[Peter Laurvick]

I appreciate all the input from everyone. Good information. Like I've seen in some independent research, there is a lot of steriotypes when talking about steel case ammo.

I ended up buying 200rounds of Hornady Black ammo to save for reloading. But I will also probably buy 500rounds of steel for practice inside 100yds where it will test more shooter skill as opposed to rifle accuracy.

And if I blow out the barrel ahead of time I'll just throw a Carbon barrel on to drop my weight a few ounces.

 

[vmpglenn]

It's costing me 47¢/rd to reload 123gr A-Max and BL-C(2)... I also purchased 500rds of wolf. Sometimes you just want to shoot and not spend a fortune. I don't always have time to reload. I also might not ever shoot 5000 rds out of my rifle so it is what it is. I'll just replace something if it messes up. I've got a 22" Satern Fluted barrel and Maxim bolt. Paid $320 shipped I think in a group buy on MSRhunt.com
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There's a large difference between handloading fired cases and just replacing bullets... No case prep, no powder, no primer required; just to pull and swap bullets. I'd guess I could do 500 rounds of steel cased - pull factory bullets using bullet puller die on my Hornady single stage press, seat 100gr ELDs using seater die on same press - in about an hour and a half.

Anyway, no biggie - enjoy shooting the steel cased stuff - I know I do!

 

[C. Stevens]

peter when you get some shooting done post an update with some pictures of what kind of groups you can get from that 100gr wolf. I'm always curious
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[Peter Laurvick]

Yes sir. I can be the test pilot. There isn't enough reviews for these kinds of questions.

 

[SRPowah]

Now a 8541 Tactical video comes to mind about using cheap bullets in a match gun..
http://8541tactical.com/2013/09/27/dont-shoot-cheap-bullets/

May or may not be true for your case, but keep it in mind before a match or a hunt. If you can, try and test that phenomena also!
I believe barrels are consumables, especially in an AR where they can be replaced "cheaply" and with ease.

 

[Peter Laurvick]

Now a 8541 Tactical video comes to mind about using cheap bullets in a match gun..
http://8541tactical.com/2013/09/27/dont-shoot-cheap-bullets/

May or may not be true for your case, but keep it in mind before a match or a hunt. If you can, try and test that phenomena also!
I believe barrels are consumables, especially in an AR where they can be replaced "cheaply" and with ease.

Good link. And what he says does make sense too. I think it all comes back to how much Barrel life are you willing to sacrifice for training vs cost. You either spend it on ammo or spend it on barrels.

I may may have to find a way to do a video series testing all this. I'm very curious.

 

[biffj]

I've been shooting steel cased ammo in all sorts of machinegun for many years and have yet to see any actual issues with extractor or chamber wear. It doesn't happen. I've also seen no difference in wear of the bore using gunmetal(copper/tin), copper plated steel, copper/nickel plated steel or any other type of jackets. I've seen huge differences in barrel wear with different types of powder due to erosion which is what usually kills your barrel. The wear from the projectile is really minimal and if you take the time to go out and pick up some of the projos you fired what you'll find is copper plating still on the jackets where they engaged the rifling. The steel of the jacket never touches the barrel. The steel of the cartridge case never touches the chamber or the extractor. Look at the ejected cases and see if there is any exposed steel. Its all coated, plated or otherwise prevented from making contact. It is a complete myth that steel cases and plated jackets cause more wear and the luckygunner test was not done very scientifically. It shouldn't be referenced as anything but a comparison between one particular type of ammo being misused compared to another type of ammo being misused. They overheated the barrels by shooting large amounts of ammo without cooling and they didn't compare components, they compared preloaded and packed ammo. The same powder used in the Wolf ammo might have had the same wear characteristics if it was used in the federal ammo but they didn't do a comparison of components to show which component actually caused the wear.

The biggest issue with steel cases is that they are normally used when cost is a consideration and not accuracy. For that reason the case capacity might vary more between cases of the same lot or concentricity of the walls may be less consistent. These can affect accuracy and since they're making cheap but functional ammo they don't really care enough to tweak these to match specs. If you want accurate ammo buy quality match grade cases and you'll find that there aren't any made in steel so you're stuck with brass even if you wanted steel. Steel cases won't wear out your chamber, extractor or barrel any faster than brass but you won't get the accuracy you can with match grade brass. Thats pretty much the bottom line.

We've taken some steel cased ammo for some accurate rifles and pulled bullets, dumped powder and reloaded using known quality powder and bullets to see how well we could do. What we found was that bullet diameters don't matter as much as some think and in reality the "cheap" military grade steel 5.45 X 39 has excellent quality control on bullet diameters anyway. They're not running undersize bullets at all. The thing that does vary is bullet weight and center of gravity. The steel cores aren't always in the center length or diameter wise. That is what kills the accuracy.
Putting good quality bullets in this ammo and shooting in a bolt action built for the caliber (rem 700) we found that the accuracy went from about 2-4 inch 5rd groups for the stock military to about 1.5-2 inches with the new powder and bullet combo. Using specially prepped brass cases swaged down from 6.8 SPC cases along with good bullets, powder and benchrest primers the rifle got down to and slightly under an inch consistently. The big difference was the cases and their consistent capacity and concentricity.

Steel is fine for practice and as long as you don't rapid fire and build up a lot of excess heat in the barrel the wear will be reasonable. Its the heat that kills the accuracy and not the bullets.


Frank

 

[Peter Laurvick]

Awesome info, thanks. I think I am going to focus on match quality ammo but I'm not worried anymore if I need to throw some steel in for specific stuff that doesn't require high accuracy