Okay, as many recalled we have been looking at the POI shifts with the Elcan SpecterDR scopes.
I started this out by doing the test with my Elcan 1.5-6X SpecterDR, the results are here:
I had a 1.5-6X SpecterDR here on site so I mounted it on my 14.5" Noveske and took it out to see for myself. We have seen these scopes with the SOCOM units that come through, and most tend to like them. So the idea there was any big shift was something I wanted to look at.
To start, the scope was zeroed at 50 yards on the Rifles Only short range using Mk262 Mod 1 ammo. This is the 77gr LR stuff we have here. Also I decided so I was not unduly influencing the groups, I would shoot the rifle in the prone using an Atlas Bipod. I set up two targets, one for the shots on 6X and one for the shots on 1.5X where I would simple toggle the lever and transition to the next target without any unnecessary movement. I shot the rifle at 50 yards, 75 yards and 100 yards. Immediately I noticed that on 1.5X power the center dot pretty much covered the 5" Shoot "N" C I used. At 50 yards on 1.5X the dot appeared to be about 4 MOA and at 75 and 100 yards it completely covered the 5 inch target. For these yard lines I turned the lit reticle on at the lowest visible power so I could more easily hold center. I have to say, it's not as easy as it would appear to hit a 5" target on 1.5X accurately with a dot that is 4MOA more in size. So I concluded there is a potential for a lot of shooter error in the reports of the zero shift.
But here are the targets:
Here are the shots on 6X
And the set up used
Now does this mean there is no shift possible ? No I don't think so, Elcan acknowledges the possibility of a shift, and because this is a second focal plane optic there is to be some shift expected specifically when using the hold over reticle, but as far as a shift due to the mechanism I am not seeing it with my test here, nor have we seen it in the past. But anything is possible, and what I will do is a get a hold of a 1-4x and test that one in a similar fashion. Again, the dot is very big, even though it doesn't appear so, I feel the room for error to be pretty high. Would I have any hesitation using this optic, well clearly not, I have no problem with the accurate or the function of this combination of rifle and scope. It's pretty much dead on by my standards.
What prompted the test was the report from Cowboy Bravo here in regards to his 1X/4X model which was mounted on his SCAR.
1. The SCAR is far from being an "out of the box ready to fight rifle". To be more eronomic and user friendly it needs some mods and tinkering with lights, slings and optics. More on this at a later date.
2. All auto rifles need extra effort to be driven accurately. The SCAR is no different... Actually I feel as though I need to work a bit harder when it comes to making a precise shot. I am comparing this to any other of my ARs used in the same situation(s).
3. The ELCAN may be "The One" when it comes to battle optics. The price tag is hard to deal with but the end result rocks.
4. One growing pain that needs to be understood with the ELCAN. For those of you who do not know, the ELCAN has a 1 or 4 power option. Just a flick of a lever takes you to 1 or 4 power. The ELCAN is sighted in on 4 power at a recommended 100 yards.
What I did the past two days was engage multiple targets from 7 to 200 yards in no particular order. I was missing a lot on 1X so I went back to prone and paper to sort things out. I printed two targets, one shot on 1 power and the other on 4 power. I quickly realized that 1 power really doesn't have a solid zero. I repeated this process several times on various targets mostly with 5 round groups. I ended up with the following example to show what I had learned.
Here are the targets...
The target on the left was shot on 4 power, from prone, 3 shots at 100, 75, 50, 25 and 7 yards.
The target on the right was shot on 1 power from the prone in the same manner as above.
On 1 power I have the following deviations:
100 yards- 3.5 inches high and 3.5 inches right
75 yards- 2.75 inches high and 1.25 inches right
50 yards .375 inches high and 1.25 inches right
25 yards 1.5 inches low and .5 inches right
7 yards Acceptable for mechanical offset and .5 inches right
I used the 4 power setting as my standard and found all the deviations predictable. Note that the 100 yard group is a little low. It was a little difficult determining a proper center hold (the dot in the reticle is 1.5 MOA on 4 power and 6 MOA on 1 power).
What I find interesting is deviation continues even at 25 yards. At first glance it seems the 1X falls into the mechanical offset and is slightly right of center. Though when I measured it the 4x 25 yard group was 2 3/16 inches low and the 1x 25 yard group was 1.5 inches low.
I don't consider this a black mark on the optic but it is a characteristic that should be mentioned in detail in the manual. Though as long as the shooter is with in 100 yards and only worried about minute of chest accuracy if firing on 1X I don't see a major problem, just know what your system is going to do.
So following these two tests Mike @ CS Tactical sent me a 1X/4X to do the additional test on and instead of just a static post I did a video.
One note on the video, I just used the cheaper 55gr PMC ammo as compared to my first test with the much better match Mk262, so the groups are not perfect, but it definitely does the trick to reveal the results experienced.
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Elcan, SpecterDR, POI, sniper's hide, Sniper, M4, Scope</p>Veeple Interactive Video</noembed></embed></object>
My conclusion, there is definitely a shift beyond 50 yards, and it is most pronounced at 100 yards. This is definitely repeatable and consistent, and only on 1X not on 4X, so you have to ask yourself a couple of questions:
1. At what distance am I most likely to use 1X ?
2. What size target will I be engaging using 1X beyond 50 yards ?
The shift kept the rounds inside an 8" circle even at 100 yards, and on 4X there was no issue of consistency when changing back and forth.
The more I look at the groups on the target the less of a concern I have to be quite honest. Especially when you consider at 100 yards on 1X the center crosshair "dot" is 6 MOA. When you turn the lit reticle on, which I did, the 8" target was completely covered by the lit reticle, so a shift of less than 3" is, in all reality, 1/2 the thickness of the reticle.
The scopes are definitely not designed for precision work, but mainly for the M4 system for faster target acquisition and supplemented by the ability to move between 1X and 4X with the flick of the lever. However because of the price of the unit many feel this shift, or any shift for that matter is unacceptable which, is completely understandable.
I still like the Elcan SpecterDR and think it serves its mission requirement. As well I like the fact it has back up irons on it, and you can mount a Docter Reflex on top, which makes fast target acquisition even faster.
Here is the complete information, the choice is definitely up to you.
I started this out by doing the test with my Elcan 1.5-6X SpecterDR, the results are here:
I had a 1.5-6X SpecterDR here on site so I mounted it on my 14.5" Noveske and took it out to see for myself. We have seen these scopes with the SOCOM units that come through, and most tend to like them. So the idea there was any big shift was something I wanted to look at.
To start, the scope was zeroed at 50 yards on the Rifles Only short range using Mk262 Mod 1 ammo. This is the 77gr LR stuff we have here. Also I decided so I was not unduly influencing the groups, I would shoot the rifle in the prone using an Atlas Bipod. I set up two targets, one for the shots on 6X and one for the shots on 1.5X where I would simple toggle the lever and transition to the next target without any unnecessary movement. I shot the rifle at 50 yards, 75 yards and 100 yards. Immediately I noticed that on 1.5X power the center dot pretty much covered the 5" Shoot "N" C I used. At 50 yards on 1.5X the dot appeared to be about 4 MOA and at 75 and 100 yards it completely covered the 5 inch target. For these yard lines I turned the lit reticle on at the lowest visible power so I could more easily hold center. I have to say, it's not as easy as it would appear to hit a 5" target on 1.5X accurately with a dot that is 4MOA more in size. So I concluded there is a potential for a lot of shooter error in the reports of the zero shift.
But here are the targets:
Here are the shots on 6X
And the set up used
Now does this mean there is no shift possible ? No I don't think so, Elcan acknowledges the possibility of a shift, and because this is a second focal plane optic there is to be some shift expected specifically when using the hold over reticle, but as far as a shift due to the mechanism I am not seeing it with my test here, nor have we seen it in the past. But anything is possible, and what I will do is a get a hold of a 1-4x and test that one in a similar fashion. Again, the dot is very big, even though it doesn't appear so, I feel the room for error to be pretty high. Would I have any hesitation using this optic, well clearly not, I have no problem with the accurate or the function of this combination of rifle and scope. It's pretty much dead on by my standards.
What prompted the test was the report from Cowboy Bravo here in regards to his 1X/4X model which was mounted on his SCAR.
1. The SCAR is far from being an "out of the box ready to fight rifle". To be more eronomic and user friendly it needs some mods and tinkering with lights, slings and optics. More on this at a later date.
2. All auto rifles need extra effort to be driven accurately. The SCAR is no different... Actually I feel as though I need to work a bit harder when it comes to making a precise shot. I am comparing this to any other of my ARs used in the same situation(s).
3. The ELCAN may be "The One" when it comes to battle optics. The price tag is hard to deal with but the end result rocks.
4. One growing pain that needs to be understood with the ELCAN. For those of you who do not know, the ELCAN has a 1 or 4 power option. Just a flick of a lever takes you to 1 or 4 power. The ELCAN is sighted in on 4 power at a recommended 100 yards.
What I did the past two days was engage multiple targets from 7 to 200 yards in no particular order. I was missing a lot on 1X so I went back to prone and paper to sort things out. I printed two targets, one shot on 1 power and the other on 4 power. I quickly realized that 1 power really doesn't have a solid zero. I repeated this process several times on various targets mostly with 5 round groups. I ended up with the following example to show what I had learned.
Here are the targets...
The target on the left was shot on 4 power, from prone, 3 shots at 100, 75, 50, 25 and 7 yards.
The target on the right was shot on 1 power from the prone in the same manner as above.
On 1 power I have the following deviations:
100 yards- 3.5 inches high and 3.5 inches right
75 yards- 2.75 inches high and 1.25 inches right
50 yards .375 inches high and 1.25 inches right
25 yards 1.5 inches low and .5 inches right
7 yards Acceptable for mechanical offset and .5 inches right
I used the 4 power setting as my standard and found all the deviations predictable. Note that the 100 yard group is a little low. It was a little difficult determining a proper center hold (the dot in the reticle is 1.5 MOA on 4 power and 6 MOA on 1 power).
What I find interesting is deviation continues even at 25 yards. At first glance it seems the 1X falls into the mechanical offset and is slightly right of center. Though when I measured it the 4x 25 yard group was 2 3/16 inches low and the 1x 25 yard group was 1.5 inches low.
I don't consider this a black mark on the optic but it is a characteristic that should be mentioned in detail in the manual. Though as long as the shooter is with in 100 yards and only worried about minute of chest accuracy if firing on 1X I don't see a major problem, just know what your system is going to do.
So following these two tests Mike @ CS Tactical sent me a 1X/4X to do the additional test on and instead of just a static post I did a video.
One note on the video, I just used the cheaper 55gr PMC ammo as compared to my first test with the much better match Mk262, so the groups are not perfect, but it definitely does the trick to reveal the results experienced.
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Elcan, SpecterDR, POI, sniper's hide, Sniper, M4, Scope</p>Veeple Interactive Video</noembed></embed></object>
My conclusion, there is definitely a shift beyond 50 yards, and it is most pronounced at 100 yards. This is definitely repeatable and consistent, and only on 1X not on 4X, so you have to ask yourself a couple of questions:
1. At what distance am I most likely to use 1X ?
2. What size target will I be engaging using 1X beyond 50 yards ?
The shift kept the rounds inside an 8" circle even at 100 yards, and on 4X there was no issue of consistency when changing back and forth.
The more I look at the groups on the target the less of a concern I have to be quite honest. Especially when you consider at 100 yards on 1X the center crosshair "dot" is 6 MOA. When you turn the lit reticle on, which I did, the 8" target was completely covered by the lit reticle, so a shift of less than 3" is, in all reality, 1/2 the thickness of the reticle.
The scopes are definitely not designed for precision work, but mainly for the M4 system for faster target acquisition and supplemented by the ability to move between 1X and 4X with the flick of the lever. However because of the price of the unit many feel this shift, or any shift for that matter is unacceptable which, is completely understandable.
I still like the Elcan SpecterDR and think it serves its mission requirement. As well I like the fact it has back up irons on it, and you can mount a Docter Reflex on top, which makes fast target acquisition even faster.
Here is the complete information, the choice is definitely up to you.
