Precision Rifle Gear Electronic hearing protections

[22lfb]

I'm satisfied with my 3M Peltor Range Guard. It's light and has a very slim profile. Of course it's not the best available, but so far it's been very reliable and it's comfortable. As of now I have no reason to upgrade to something "better".

As far as ear plugs go, the best I have tested so far are the 3M Earsoft FX! (I swear I'm not affiliated in any way with 3M ) Very soft, very effective... Granted I'm not sensitive, but i can leave them in for several hours without issues.

 

[kthomas]

MSA Sordin Supreme-X's with gel cups, coupled with foam ear plugs (unless shooting suppressed, then muffs only).

 

[CK1.0]

I thought of this today, and couldn't remember where I read it, and thought if I found it, I'd post it. For anyone who shoots, it can't hurt to read it. This explains things pretty well, errrr, well at least it breaks it down a bit as to the how & why (also why double ear pro is best for us): https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media...tion-for-impulse-noise-technical-bulletin.pdf

It briefly gets into the fact that impulse sounds (transients) are hard to measure consistently for shooting due to many factors, and therefore it's hard to make up an accurate rating system for rating an ear pro's effectiveness against those types of sounds... sooooo, they don't rate it.

In so many words, what they are NOT telling you is: the noise reduction rating system used, may or may not suck as it applies to shooting.

Scientifically, the rating system is wrong and they know it.

Without going too deep into the audio term weeds, they're measuring the sound using an A-weighted scale rather than a C-weighted scale which would be far better...

So you can't and shouldn't just go by the NRR numbers alone and just get the highest NRR rating you can find. Ear pro can say NRR30dB and still be total dog shit.

This is why I like the Sordin Supreme Pro X's that have an NRR rating of "only" 19dB, and that leads me to:

MSA Sordins have a dismal 18dB NRR

Why would anyone buy them?

I thought they sucked too before I saw their frequency chart against some others' out there (cannot find it, searched, it's out there, sorry) and then tried some for myself.

Page 29-31 goes over their testing and approvals in their awkwardly thick manual (that's in every language on the planet I think): https://www.sordin.com/uploads/a00a6492-8dda-4366-95b1-b1fa9b67e9b2-Supreme.pdf

And this guy pretty much sums it up too: https://trevoronthetrigger.wordpres...me-performance-the-misleading-nrr18db-rating/

Not saying Sordin's are the shit for everybody or anything... just pointing out that when it comes to ear pro, it's not as complicated as it seems... it's way more complicated hahaha!

 

[carbonbased]

I thought of this today, and couldn't remember where I read it, and thought if I found it, I'd post it. For anyone who shoots, it can't hurt to read it. This explains things pretty well, errrr, well at least it breaks it down a bit as to the how & why (also why double ear pro is best for us): https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media...tion-for-impulse-noise-technical-bulletin.pdf

It briefly gets into the fact that impulse sounds (transients) are hard to measure consistently for shooting due to many factors, and therefore it's hard to make up an accurate rating system for rating an ear pro's effectiveness against those types of sounds... sooooo, they don't rate it.

In so many words, what they are NOT telling you is: the noise reduction rating system used, may or may not suck as it applies to shooting.

Scientifically, the rating system is wrong and they know it.

Without going too deep into the audio term weeds, they're measuring the sound using an A-weighted scale rather than a C-weighted scale which would be far better...

So you can't and shouldn't just go by the NRR numbers alone and just get the highest NRR rating you can find. Ear pro can say NRR30dB and still be total dog shit.

This is why I like the Sordin Supreme Pro X's that have an NRR rating of "only" 19dB, and that leads me to:


I thought they sucked too before I saw their frequency chart against some others' out there (cannot find it, searched, it's out there, sorry) and then tried some for myself.

Page 29-31 goes over their testing and approvals in their awkwardly thick manual (that's in every language on the planet I think): https://www.sordin.com/uploads/a00a6492-8dda-4366-95b1-b1fa9b67e9b2-Supreme.pdf

And this guy pretty much sums it up too: https://trevoronthetrigger.wordpres...me-performance-the-misleading-nrr18db-rating/

Not saying Sordin's are the shit for everybody or anything... just pointing out that when it comes to ear pro, it's not as complicated as it seems... it's way more complicated hahaha!

I came to the same end as you as far as trying to figure out how to compare muffs. I had ran across that Trevor fellow years ago and forgot to bookmark that page. He added some more frequency info to my research (what to block). Thanks!

A little quizzical look passes over my face when people suggest Sordins, however. Trevor says: “If you want a single number for comparisons, average the ratings for 1 kHz and 2 kHz (matches up with 1.5 kHz peak SPL)” so that’s what I did.

Here’s the Sordin’s hz chart:

and here’s my Peltor TacticalPro’s hz chart:

The difference is quite large, 27.25 vs 36.05, or 8.8dB. The TacticalPros beat the Sordins across the board except for at 6300hz (less than 1 db).

You can get comms for the TacticalPros too, if that’s your thing.

The TacticalPros are larger than the Sordins, however. My head looks like an even puffier version of Glaz from Rainbow Six Siege lol.

I like high scope mounts so my head is as straight up as possible, so they don’t bug me at all. The build quality is better than the Peltor Sport Tactical 500, which have similar dB reduction (don’t you love confusingly similar 3M marketing names? Jeez). Here’s the 500’s chart:

The 500s have Bluetooth, look to be a bit better at the top end (2k-4k avg) for short-barreled rifles and/or guns with compensators (hz according to Trevor), but the TacticalPros have a better 500hz number for magnums (hz again = Trevor). They also don’t have comm ability, I don’t think.

edit: I just compared the 500-4000hz average between the Peltors and the Sordin:

• TacticalPros: 36.54
• Sport Tactical 500: 36.88
• Sordins: 29.4

If I did my math right, it’s a wash between the Peltors, and the Sordins closed the gap a little (~7.1 dB less).

With either Peltor, I suggest getting the gel pads (quite expensive). They reduce the protection by ~1 dB according to 3M literature but add significant comfort and sealing around glasses, so I feel they probably come out ahead in dB land vs the stock pads anyway.

I don’t know if the Sordins come with gel pads or if they are an add-on as well. If an add-on, I wouldn’t be surprised if they too suffer from a 1 dB reduction, but do check.

One thing I’d like someone to explain in really lay-man’s terms is the standard deviation numbers. I don’t really get it.

I’ve also attached the docs from which I got my Peltor numbers. They are hard to find!

 

[CK1.0]

I came to the same end as you as far as trying to figure out how to compare muffs. I had ran across that Trevor fellow years ago and forgot to bookmark that page. He added some more frequency info to my research (what to block). Thanks!

A little quizzical look passes over my face when people suggest Sordins, however. Trevor says: “If you want a single number for comparisons, average the ratings for 1 kHz and 2 kHz (matches up with 1.5 kHz peak SPL)” so that’s what I did.

Here’s the Sordin’s hz chart:
View attachment 7690498

and here’s my Peltor TacticalPro’s hz chart:
View attachment 7690499

The difference is quite large, 27.25 vs 36.05, or 8.8dB. The TacticalPros beat the Sordins across the board except for at 6300hz (less than 1 db).

You can get comms for the TacticalPros too, if that’s your thing.

The TacticalPros are larger than the Sordins, however. My head looks like an even puffier version of Glaz from Rainbow Six Siege lol.

I like high scope mounts so my head is as straight up as possible, so they don’t bug me at all. The build quality is better than the Peltor Sport Tactical 500, which have similar dB reduction (don’t you love confusingly similar 3M marketing names? Jeez). Here’s the 500’s chart:
View attachment 7690508
The 500s have Bluetooth, look to be a bit better at the top end (2k-4k avg) for short-barreled rifles and/or guns with compensators (hz according to Trevor), but the TacticalPros have a better 500hz number for magnums (hz again = Trevor). They also don’t have comm ability, I don’t think.

edit: I just compared the 500-4000hz average between the Peltors and the Sordin:

• TacticalPros: 36.54
• Sport Tactical 500: 36.88
• Sordins: 29.4

If I did my math right, it’s a wash between the Peltors, and the Sordins closed the gap a little (~7.1 dB less).

With either Peltor, I suggest getting the gel pads (quite expensive). They reduce the protection by ~1 dB according to 3M literature but add significant comfort and sealing around glasses, so I feel they probably come out ahead in dB land vs the stock pads anyway.

I don’t know if the Sordins come with gel pads or if they are an add-on as well. If an add-on, I wouldn’t be surprised if they too suffer from a 1 dB reduction, but do check.

One thing I’d like someone to explain in really lay-man’s terms is the standard deviation numbers. I don’t really get it.

I’ve also attached the docs from which I got my Peltor numbers. They are hard to find!

Yeah, there isn’t really a standard that means anything and all the numbers surrounding these things are misleading or useless garbage.

In the end I just said fuck it and ordered all the ones I was curious about and kept the ones I thought were the best.

FWIW, the 3M Tactical Pros were one of the sets I tried, didn’t end up keeping them... their numbers, like everyone else’s, really don’t mean anything.

That said, regardless of who’s cans you get, really, if you’re already wearing NRR30 plugs, then your second set of ear pro (muffs) only adds an additional reduction to the tune of ~6dB no matter what their numbers are, so for the best attenuation, what plugs you use and whether or not they’re inserted correctly actually matters a lot more than the muffs.

 

[carbonbased]

Yeah, there isn’t really a standard that means anything and all the numbers surrounding these things are misleading or useless garbage.

In the end I just said fuck it and ordered all the ones I was curious about and kept the ones I thought were the best.

FWIW, the 3M Tactical Pros were one of the sets I tried, didn’t end up keeping them... their numbers, like everyone else’s, really don’t mean anything.

That said, regardless of who’s cans you get, really, if you’re already wearing NRR30 plugs, then your second set of ear pro (muffs) only adds an additional reduction to the tune of ~6dB no matter what their numbers are, so for the best attenuation, what plugs you use and whether or not they’re inserted correctly actually matters a lot more than the muffs.

So maybe I was misunderstanding your post a little bit.

Keep in mind I’m not a math/engineering/sound guy, at ALL, not even a little bit. Just trying to learn things.

I thought you were just saying you can’t just rely on the single NRR number, but you have to look at the hz attenuation dB chart to see the reduction at typical gunfire hz.

A more careful reading suggests that you are also saying that each manufacturer’s attenuation chart is garbage because they're based on an A-weighted scale and not a C-weighted scale. And it seems you hint that other methods behind the measurements are not standardized?

Is that what you’re saying? Feel free to get into the audio weeds. This info is really hard for me to find and understand (example: A weight? C weight? etc) but it’s important to know.

I’d like to learn.

 

[CK1.0]

So maybe I was misunderstanding your post a little bit.

Keep in mind I’m not a math/engineering/sound guy, at ALL, not even a little bit. Just trying to learn things.

I thought you were just saying you can’t just rely on the single NRR number, but you have to look at the hz attenuation dB chart to see the reduction at typical gunfire hz.

A more careful reading suggests that you are also saying that each manufacturer’s attenuation chart is garbage because they're based on an A-weighted scale and not a C-weighted scale. And it seems you hint that other methods behind the measurements are not standardized?

Is that what you’re saying? Feel free to get into the audio weeds. This info is really hard for me to find and understand (example: A weight? C weight? etc) but it’s important to know.

I’d like to learn.

Yes, the rating scale they are all using concerning ear pro is bullshit, full stop.

The more I learn about it, specifically when it comes to shooting, we all might be better off if they just stopped using those noise reduction rating numbers altogether... they're meaningless to us anyways.

The noise reduction rating (NRR) system all the companies use was indeed developed primarily as a way to rate the effectiveness of ear protection... problem is, it was developed for a very different purpose and to rate the reduction of a completely different type of sound: occupational noise exposure.

There are plenty of jobs where noise exposure is a real concern, think: airline ground staff, large machine shops, sawmills, mining, refineries, etc - that was how the rating came about. Organizations like OSHA and the like needed a way to define the effectiveness of ear protection, but as it pertains to workplaces with high levels of exposure that was dangerous to workers and as a way to label the level of protection afforded to workers who needed to protect themselves in a given environment. Nothing at all to do with extremely loud, short duration, transient sounds like gunshots. One example would be guys in the Navy working in engine rooms: loud as fuck? yes. ear pro needed? yes. sounds similar to gunfire? nope, not really.(not unless something is really wrong that is).

"Exposure to impulsive or impact noise should not exceed 140dB peak sound pressure level." - OHSA ...too bad rifles are more in the 160dB+ range (140dB is considered the threshold of pain for humans BTW/FWIW).

So....after all that, sadly, all I've got for you is that as shooters, we're stuck: we've just got to try different ones out to see how they really perform.

The things that should really concern us as shooters are: impulse/transient sound reduction performance, and how well does a particular model mitigate sound pressure levels (we're talking how's it perform when sounds get loud enough to really move some air)... that right there isn't easy to figure out with the current rating system that's used.

Just guessing here, but why some brands are better than others for shooting IMHO probably just comes down to basic construction and quality of materials... for example: while their numbers look shitty, Sordin's handle impulse sounds and sound pressure really well, better than most. Now, is that because Sordin has some secret tech that nobody else has? or maybe, is it just because they're designed to be waterproof, so their electronics inside each ear cup are completely encased in lacquer and are air and water tight which coincidentally also happens to be pretty awesome at blocking and deflecting sound and pressure waves too..?

Point is: you gotta try them. They're all different and some are better than others. You just cannot tell by the number on the box.

 

[jda2631]

I have a question for ppl using the MSA sordin's. I upgraded to these recently from the howard leight impact sports. The MSA's are very comfortable with the gel cups, and they appear to block more noise than the howard leights, but I am very disappointed in the electronics of the MSA's. I can't hear impacts on steel most of the time. Even people talking is hard to hear if there is any back ground noise. The volume, even at max, is very low and it seems the electronics block out much more "stuff" that I want to hear. The howard leights were much much better in this area.

It's kinda hard to explain, but it's like there are 2 settings almost. When there is no background noise I can hear ok, but volume is still low. But when there is background noise (like shooting) its like they are lowering all noises to a muffle. So while there is shooting going on, I can barely hear anything. With the howard leights, I didn't have this issue. I could hear steel impacts, people talking, etc while there was lots of shooting going on.

Anyone else have experience like this with the MSA's? Did I get a bad pair?

 

[CK1.0]

I have a question for ppl using the MSA sordin's. I upgraded to these recently from the howard leight impact sports. The MSA's are very comfortable with the gel cups, and they appear to block more noise than the howard leights, but I am very disappointed in the electronics of the MSA's. I can't hear impacts on steel most of the time. Even people talking is hard to hear if there is any back ground noise. The volume, even at max, is very low and it seems the electronics block out much more "stuff" that I want to hear. The howard leights were much much better in this area.

It's kinda hard to explain, but it's like there are 2 settings almost. When there is no background noise I can hear ok, but volume is still low. But when there is background noise (like shooting) its like they are lowering all noises to a muffle. So while there is shooting going on, I can barely hear anything. With the howard leights, I didn't have this issue. I could hear steel impacts, people talking, etc while there was lots of shooting going on.

Anyone else have experience like this with the MSA's? Did I get a bad pair?

It’s possible you have a bad pair, or, your range just might be a loud one..?

I wear mine over plugs and almost never have to turn them all the way up... can hear steel at 1000 and at 1250 if no one else is shooting and I actually get an impact hahaha. I can talk and hear speech normally as well.

The audio overall should be much better than Impact Sports with the Sordin’s if they’re Supreme Pro-X’s at least, no idea about the other models.

If you see a dude with a pair you should ask if you can compare them, or, maybe call SRS Tactical, those guys can probably help you out.

 

[RayDBonz]

One thing I’d like someone to explain in really lay-man’s terms is the standard deviation numbers. I don’t really get it.

When repeated testing is done, you get a bell-shaped curve of the resultant data points.
The mean is the average of the numbers.
The standard deviation is a measure of how spread out the numbers are. In the above data, lower would be better.

Also remember the dB scale is a logarithmic one. That means a difference in sound pressure of 3dB is twice (or half) as loud! So a performance difference of 7 dB is huge!

 

[Kalthoff]

Sordin Supreme Pro-X with gel pads.

I supplement them with disposable foam earplugs.

By themself the Sordins have way too low attenuation for most shooting.

 

[pineoak]

One of my Peltor Tactical Sports died. Will try to save, but alkalines leaked as they were left in a car on a hot day- vinegar & baking soda clean later tonight.

Want to pick up a cheapie pair of electronic muffs for using OVER my Surefire 2 flange, open plug cheapie ear plugs. I always run them because there's always some as**at that lights one off when everyone else has ears off.

Would love to get a set that can pick up the little "ding" on steel from a .22LR @ 200 yards, but understand at under $50, that's not realistic.

I am almost always suppressed on any centerfire rifle, but people around me use brakes.

 

[strikeeagle1]

PSA- ONly lithium batteries in expensive ear pro, optics, Kestrels , flashlights etc...random alkaline spewing is expensive and never convenient.

 

[pineoak]

PSA- ONly lithium batteries in expensive ear pro, optics, Kestrels , flashlights etc...random alkaline spewing is expensive and never convenient.

I used to follow this rule (cameras and such), but ran out and allowed myself to take the "easy" route... 3 sets of batts in... I paid the price.

You are correct.

 

[6.5SH]

I used to follow this rule (cameras and such), but ran out and allowed myself to take the "easy" route... 3 sets of batts in... I paid the price.

You are correct.

It didn't used to be that way, but the last 20 years it has changed. Now you are lucky if even name brand alkalines don't leak in the damn packaging let alone in a device.