Elephant in the "ELR" Room

[THEIS]

Hi Everyone,

Well since Shot Show is just a couple weeks away and there is going to be at least 2 meetings in regards to ELR and its path forward I figured we could start a pre Shot Show meeting discussion...You know...discuss the elephant in the room......

There is no doubt that "ELR" is more popular today than it was 3 years ago, much less a decade ago. So we really need to focus and lay out paths to accommodate that popularity, lay out visions/desires for the next decade, and build the infrastructure to not only handle the popularity but expand its popularity.
ALL while progressing within the industry and the culture without placing limitations on the progression.

The challenge in "growing" the ELR culture through competitions and record "events" is that by their very nature "ELR" shooters do not like limitations. That is what drives them to ELR in the first place so when the competitions and record "events" get to restrictive in regards to rifle weight, recoil mitigating bipods, allowed support equipment vs non allowed support equipment, etc etc it is NOT progressing the ELR culture even though it IS advertising the culture.

Progression of ELR requires not only companies in the industry but also requires the guy that just wants to shoot xyz distances. Trying to pursue progression without acknowledging and accommodating both is futile.

Advancement in ELR weapon systems and equipment takes $$$. We all realize that (I think lol). The industry companies have to see a return on their investment or they will stop investing. They stop investing and ELR stops advancing.

There needs to be a membership based organization that is NOT "operated" by any commercial entities.

There needs to be industry sponsorship packages within the organization, NOT industry control packages. (This allows the shooters to become aware of companies and products without them feeling the organization is catering to individual companies)

There needs to be competitions and record "events" that encourage industry entities and recreational shooters alike to progress the art by not placing limitations on what can and cannot be used. (This allows someone that is purely into ELR for the internal ballistics aspects (Rail Gun Types) to progress cartridges, etc that could then become common used cartridges.)

There needs to be competitions and record "events" that encourage recreational shooters to pursue their thoughts of stepping into the ELR weapon system and equipment realm. (This is how the companies get a ROI without them being viewed as trying to control ELR)

The Organization should be responsible for making sure commercial entities have a reason to progress ELR and its' culture while at the same time making sure the members have a reason to feel they are just as important to the progression of ELR and its' culture. This cannot be done with just competitions and record "events" only, it must be an all inclusive progression path.

So how do we move forward as a solidified group instead of divisive entities??

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[Lowlight]

I don't see the divisiveness, I see guys who feel they were not part of the original conversation question everything, when in reality they only have a tiny window to see through. In other words you have a few bullet points and you see the announcment of events but question the motives.

However look at the reality, as I have been in the room at both the events and the meetings.

Take me and Applied Ballistics, I am not shy out about pointing out the limitation of their software. yet here we are in this context working together. I am in direct contact with Paul Philips and while we don't agree with everything, we agree with 90% of what is being talked about. Yes you have some bold personalities, and some big egos along with big companies supporting the effort.

The companies are the ones saying, "You will share", they are there and no one has the advantage over another. Instead you are calling a company taking point on anything as divisive. It's not, you need resources to get the ball rolling. Then the haters show up and say, "why are they leading this" ? It's not the same thing as saying they are promoting their agenda, odds are, they are promoting an agreed upon agenda that really supports the majority is an not a single serving effort.

You question everything posted and honestly I don't see it as creative critisism but more of just throwing shade.

The events and competitions are being done in a way that is repeatable. They are looking at this on a worldwide level. So if we do something at Raton it can be repeated in France. Maybe not identical because of elevation, conditions etc, but it's a repeatable standard. Nothing takes away from innovation, but the fact of the matter is, these guys who might be considered innovative are really just throwing rounds at the target until something hits and then they call it good. Everything downrange eventually gets hit if you throw enough lead at it.

When I attended the Ritter & Stark event, it was billed as World Record Event. The plan, hit a target at 4000 yards with a factory rifle and factory ammo. I arrived and acted as a Proctor, I laid down a few rules. "we are not shooting until someone hits" and trust me people where not happy about it. They wanted a hit at 4k, instead you had me stopping them as shooters go wound up. ELR Shooting, especially in at the ULR Distances is ADDICTING. Try stopping a guy who just fired his 10th round without a hit, but land #10 only a few inches from the target. Saying sorry dood, you're done, that was your 10th try. This is different from practicing and experimenting, and nobody is limiting your ability to experiment or practice. What they are saying is, you must hit and be repeatable within a limited number of shots.

Emptying an Ammo Can of 200 round in order to get 2 hits is meaningless. We know with enough angle, distance, and persistance you will hit something. - Meaningless.

The fact they want a standard is not divisive, it's common sense. If you cannot repeat the shot and hit on command within a limited number of rounds, you are wasting everyone's time.

Now, as an individual, you can go out all day, and shoot to 5000 yards. After you have it sorted, show up and repeat it. That is not divisive asking a shooter to repeat their claim. If you truly can repeat it on demand, it makes that milestone that much more meaningful. If you feel you can hit and repeat the hits at 5000 yards and the competition and event goes to 2500 yards, you should be that much accurate closer in. Instead of a single hit, show us a group.

I see a lot of questioning of the motives, but the motives are pretty clear. Without standards what is the point.

 

[Early Cuyler]

Sounds like something akin to FCSA but for ELR?

 

[Lowlight]

King of 2 Mile grew out of the FCSA, it was a compimentary event that happens just before the nationals

 

[Hoffer]

As of now ELR C is 100%AB.

There are many contributing to the effort and that is a good thing.

All I want is a diverse board of 5-8 people to oversee or to control ELR C.

If AB gets the record at the Vegas event they have the ELR C record that only has AB staff to oversee it. I hope this is not the way most want it seen.

I know it is still in it's infancy. The upcoming meetings are a perfect place to enact this or at least get it started.

I start with my board nominees

Frank - Snipers hide
Bryan Litz - AB
Oscar - URSA
Eduarto - KO2M
Broz - LRO
Jeff Van Neil
Dan - Warner tool
Someone from PRS?
Someone from NRA?
?

 

[IntoTransonic]

I don't know Theis. You seem mad at life.
Start practicing and load your gear and start driving to events. Next one is in Kansas on March 17.

I don't see the successful ELR teams bitching, moaning and groaning. I see them practicing, testing and working hard. Brother, get on board or get left behind.

I hope to see you in Kansas. I know that I will be there, and I have a 14 hour drive from Tennessee, but the love for the sport keeps me working on the sport not bitching about the organization of the sport.

Good shooting.
Chris Schmidt

 

[Lowlight]

Guys,

If I posted the video of the "Other Teams" at the K02M, you would be surprised what you saw,

The Reason Team AB stands out is, they are better than the other teams. They work as a team, they understand the goal and the mission, it's to win these matches. They work seamlessly together. They do better because they work at it. Nobody is handing them this. The fact they combine marketing and ability should not be a negative in this case. I am one of the biggest critics in the industry and having seen it first hand, this criticism is unwarranted. I get it, not everything is to everyone's liking, and that causes noses to get bent. But they are just playing the game how the rules are laid out.

Other companies, McMillan is huge part of this, Cutting Edge Bullets, JJ Rock with their new actions, Warner Tool has a say, look at the sponsors and I will tell you there is lot more people involved then you realize. Nightforce is part of it, the list is much longer than just AB.

Remember Team Barrett came in second and is right there alongside what the AB guys are doing. The Team from Barrett was excellent, but they are not promoting this the same way AB is. Just because everyone focuses on the winner does not mean others are not involved.

I watched guys in the K02M final not have clue what adjustments to make or had been made from shot to shot. They had no idea what was happening because the other "Teams" are just not up to par. They are guys who came together once hoping it was easy enough to score a hit. Why you ask, I will tell you, beccause they come from where ever, they threw a ton of lead at a target at extreme distances and managed to get a hit. When they showed up at an event where rules are in place, they miss everything and go home upset. What they are really upset about is their own performance and it's easier to blame the other guys. It's not hard to see guys walk off further away from a target and wonder what their spotter is actually looking at. You have guys that see the dust seconds after the wind moves it and wonder why the calls are wrong. They hit low under the target, the wind blows the dust up behind it and the spotter calls a down correction, of course they never hit anything.

 

[Hoffer]

It goes without saying the AB guys are the best. No doubt about it.
95% chance they will hold the "world record" for a long time. That is exactly why it has to be run by a separate/unaffiliated entity.

 

[Lowlight]

Who said there wasn't ?

The entire list you posted is involved in some form or another ...

 

[oneshot.onehit]

It always seems that subjects of this sort turn into a pissing match, at the end of the day you really need to step back and look at the big picture. The ultimate goal is to hit targets at extreme distances with some type of consistency and accuracy. Events as the KO2M which now is in its 4th year has forced the industry and the shooter to push beyond what most say can't be done and with that, time limits and rules. This has only caused more events to spin off and do the same which in turn is progression in ELR.

The only problem is the clarification of the word ( world record ) Every club, organization or group can have the same goal and record the high end scores. But no matter what sport you can name from racing to archery they all have the same goals but each organization within the same game has their own set of rules and records.

I agree with THEIS. It would be great to have a governing body but it will be challenging to advise, regulate and record the activities with events starting up more and more as this sport grows - ELR.

Franky
Take it easy on the guys at the KO2M, most of them are going to feel like they just got kicked in the teeth. They all had small issues with call corrections including AB and Barrett you could see and hear the comments, also most of the teams are probably studying the segments being played on TV trying to understand what happened on certain shots - from a spotting scope view you can miss small hints of a hit and see the after effect of the dust cloud throwing them off. It looks pretty obvious and easy to see on the close up target camera during the show but is a whole another animal from a distance and the heat of the moment. There was good team work for the most part with the teams and some learning to adapt to better ways. You also had everything from hot loads with bolt secondary extraction issues, to bullets going into transonic and sub sonic, to scope mounts coming loose and being locked down in the wrong position even a cleaning rod got put to use. All the fun stuff that can happen or go wrong while the clock is ticking under pressure and on the line it happened to a wide variety of shooters including some of the best.
I know you mean well.


To the future of hitting what people say can't be done -- and accurately
Cheers

oneshot

 

[Lowlight]

I am not being hard on the competitors, I am being realistic,

and I am not basing my observations on what was on the TV or the Target Cams, but in watching them, I was front and center and I was focused on the shooters, I had ring side seats to the event. I was literally 4ft from the right side firing position and was only 2ft from that side's spotter. I have it on video, teams debating a shot or not knowing how to correct. I had the camera running on auto pilot as the Team shot and I watched closely how they excuted their relay. Nowhere did I speak of equipment issues, but rather the cohesiveness of the teams.


Here is my view of the winning team, this is left position, the right side is even closer to me.

A common mistake I see all the time is calling the puffs of dirt after they started to move away from their actual point of impact. This bit shooters, as well as the angle to the target and fact the the strikes appeared high vs low. Why, the target was hanging on a cliff up in the air. None of this is based off what you saw on TV. The line of spotters watching but not part of the event was 5x longer than any other events I have gone too.

Yes, this was not isolated, so it's not being harsh, it's being real. When Paul switched to using his rifle scope vs getting on a spotter people complained. But he found being on the same plane with the shooter and the fact his scope was affording a better "View" helped with his success. There was question about using the scope vs the spotter, I found it strange, but the fact was, he told me immediately after, it was better. The spotters were deceiving people.

While this was happening Bryan and Mitch were not even on glass


Frankly it's bit off putting for guys to complain to something they did not attend, of which I had front row seat,


The Moment they stood up from the hit to win the match.

Guys want to Monday morning quarterback the organization of something that does not even exist. ELR Central is not the governering body but merely the repository of the information.

 

[oneshot.onehit]

I am not being hard on the competitors, I am being realistic,

and I am not basing my observations on what was on the TV or the Target Cams, but in watching them, I was front and center and I was focused on the shooters, I had ring side seats to the event. I was literally 4ft from the right side firing position and was only 2ft from that side's spotter. I have it on video, teams debating a shot or not knowing how to correct. I had the camera running on auto pilot as the Team shot and I watched closely how they excuted their relay. Nowhere did I speak of equipment issues, but rather the cohesiveness of the teams.


Here is my view of the winning team, this is left position, the right side is even closer to me.

A common mistake I see all the time is calling the puffs of dirt after they started to move away from their actual point of impact. This bit shooters, as well as the angle to the target and fact the the strikes appeared high vs low. Why, the target was hanging on a cliff up in the air. None of this is based off what you saw on TV. The line of spotters watching but not part of the event was 5x longer than any other events I have gone too.

Yes, this was not isolated, so it's not being harsh, it's being real. When Paul switched to using his rifle scope vs getting on a spotter people complained. But he found being on the same plane with the shooter and the fact his scope was affording a better "View" helped with his success. There was question about using the scope vs the spotter, I found it strange, but the fact was, he told me immediately after, it was better. The spotters were deceiving people.

While this was happening Bryan and Mitch were not even on glass


Frankly it's bit off putting for guys to complain to something they did not attend, of which I had front row seat,


The Moment they stood up from the hit to win the match.

Guys want to Monday morning quarterback the organization of something that does not even exist. ELR Central is not the governering body but merely the repository of the information.

For the record I never complained about the KO2M or events of the sort, and I believe what you all said about where you were standing and filming - I was standing right next to you and we spoke some.

Oneshot

 

[steve123]

From watching the KO2M videos I'd say the first order of business is getting good video camera's placed centered in front of the target. Those steel are a long way off and it's for the best interest of everyone to see exactly where they hit and where they didn't - in real time.

That would put less emphasis on the spotters and more towards the actual shooters.

My question is, when does it stop with the size of the cartridge, weight of the projectile/or more importantly it's BC , and it's velocity?
Is it possible someone could withstand the punishment of a 2 BC 2000 grain bullet going 4000 fps with a ES of 5 fps? That seems like where ELR is going, a rifle only gets so accurate, so the lowest ES and highest BC, coupled with highest velocity, stands the best chance at winning -as long as one can know where each shot landed.

 

[Lowlight]

My point, which seems to have been missed here is,

Team AB was not doing something nefarious, and I failed to see the divisiveness in the actions, then or now.

If they did I would have walked away from all this, but in the room, with everyone, we are all in agreement that promoting this aspect of the sport is bigger than any single team or event.

 

[Hoffer]

Who said there wasn't ?

The entire list you posted is involved in some form or another ...

I know there are over 50 people contributing.
I think its great AB got the ball rolling. Now that it is rolling you need a board or over-site committee to be formed. Your can't continue to have a meeting of 50 people once a year now that the rules are formed.

When I ask who is ELR C the consensus is it's AB
In 2 weeks I'll ask who holds the record ... they will say AB
So AB holds the AB record

When the people that hold records run the show it is called a club

In six months when I ask who is ELR C I want to hear
" it's a board of industry professionals and shooters from varying backgrounds" overseeing the world records

It's good for everyone...especially AB
When they hold the record it will mean something

 

[IntoTransonic]

I appreciate all opinions. I really do. I shot the KO2M this last year, and the body of work can be debated since its on tape.
I think the KO2M is the most demanding ELR shooting competition imagineable. The cliffs, cuts, mountain throws all kinds of curves at the shooter/spotter team.

We worked my team (Team Barrett) for approximately nine months in preparation. When the whistle blows .... You find out exactly how prepared you are. It's not easy, and I challenge all to experience it. I love it and look very much forward to returning this year.

Please don't get all bent out of shape over who organizes this or who runs that ..... Get your ELR equipment and come shoot with us. You will be hard pressed to find a more helpful group of people.

ELR is hard. It's humbling. It's a lot of work, but you will find more satisfaction from putting in the work, competing and learning how to improve. I, literally, spend my not working hours (I do own my own business) thinking about how I can improve my chances at the next 2500 yard opportunity.

Good shooting
Chris Schmidt

 

[Lowlight]

ELR Central is owned by AB, but it is not the "Committee", it's the repository for information.

No organization has been stood up, and everyone recognizes the need for an actual governing body, but there is no governing body and ELR Central is not considered it.

The question is who is gonna start the organization and under what conditions. To start an organization is a legal process, that has not started yet, the SHOT SHOW event is another starting point as everyone agrees there needs to be a standard and they want to see how it operates, how it flushes out before anything is decided.

Of course whoever wins the Vegas event will be crowing from coast to coast, as the should. But you are watching the omelet get made and questioning why people are breaking eggs.

This is the exact same as singling out one PRS Event and calling everything else by that name. Rifles Only hosts several PRS events a year, but it's not the Rifles Only championship, this is one event. The PRS has several ELR events, their rules are different, Oscar has his monthly events, that is different, Spearpoint ranch has events, different again. There is no Governing Body yet, as no 3rd party has stepped to blend in and start one.

 

[LastShot300]

I agree with THEIS. It would be great to have a governing body but it will be challenging to advise, regulate and record the activities with events starting up more and more as this sport grows - ELR.


oneshot

THEIS is right about, likewise Frank. We need an organization but for now there is none so the crowing. In the end, it will be there sooner rather than later as long as the nice people doing ELR don't make the obvious mistakes (nothing specific). A good point in case is to try hard to gather all the key international players to come aboard. There is a lot of knowledge accros the pond and beyond.

 

[Hoffer]

Whatever happens it will be an interesting year

 

[TripleBull]

I don't worry about whether or not the people promoting ELR have their own agendas. Everyone has their own agenda. And I don't really want ELR to grow too quickly, so the current organizational drama conversations in the forums sound like cat scratch to me. There is plenty of time for the community to learn from its mistakes and morph into the future. We already have a critical ELR mass and I think it will survive if we don't stand by and watch politicians take over. Since large tracts of land are required and sensitive neighbor communities are involved, we could be pinched far away from population centers. I'd actually rather ELR not get remotely near mainstream among the shooting community because I suspect that would bring more bad decisions into venues that are already too limited. Enjoy it while you can and get involved if you think it needs to be fixed.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

No mad at life here or any "shade" intended. Sorry if it comes across like that. English is not my first languages.

I mentioned divisive because you can scroll through various threads on various forums and you see people (Myself Included) "divided" in regards to how/why K02M is better or worse than this vs how/why ELRC is better or worse than this vs that......

My question was genuine in regards "How do we move forward". What we all agree on is that we all want the ELR industry and culture to progress and advance. What my original post was intended to do is get us discussing exactly what Frank has mentioned in his last reply. That there is no stood up organization and that ELR C is NOT a sanctioning entity and we all know that K02M is at this point a single venue event.

So with that being out in the open......
What would you all like to see in an organization being stood up in order that the industry feels it is useful to them and the members feel it is useful to them?
Board of Directors being voted on once a year or two year tenures?
What elected positions on the BOD?
Does the organization hold its' own events and/or does it sanction and oversee events like K02M, ELRC events, Worlds Longest Shot Challenge events, etc etc?
Digital magazine that can provide commercial vendors a dedicated venue to market/advertise their products?
Digital magazine that potential members could use to decide whether they want to become a member or not?
USA based organization with International "Chapters" or setup as an International Organization from the beginning?

There are lots of other things that would need to be discussed and decided so that the Organization Bylaws could be written and hopefully we can start a discussion on those items here.
Frank--would you be open to standing up such organization (As part of SH) as long as it was financed through the industry so that it would be of no cost to you and/or Snipers Hide?

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[Tahoe]

I agree with THEIS.

 

[Tahoe]

Since there is nothing to worry about why has nobody stepped up to stream the meetings at SHOT ? I personally feel this would help.

 

[sass2924]

Since there is nothing to worry about why has nobody stepped up to stream the meetings at SHOT ? I personally feel this would help.

When are the meetings taking place at the Show?

 

[Tahoe]

I'm unaware. Frank can we get the time and meeting place ? Or is this invite only ?

 

[Lowlight]

I don't recall the times, I would have to go back and look,

Currently what I remember off the top of my head,

Sunday we have the ELR Shoot at Front Sight, after there is an awards deal and an informal AAR / meeting at the Parhump Winery

At SHOT there is a meeting upstairs on Tuesday I believe before Lunch, they were also talking about an off-site meet up for people who did not have a badge to get into SHOT

 

[Hairy Biker]

I do hope targets get a good session, especially with tech developing like it is. While paper is best, this seems to be the future and engaging with these companies to set them the R&D challenge would seem a natural next step.

Oakwood Controls SPORTSMAN H-BAR Portable Electronic Target System
http://www.shootingwire.com/story/dcc27efb-95fc-440a-ae2f-0be66e1add5a

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

If I remember correctly that company was at first KO2M.

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[Lowlight]

I do hope targets get a good session, especially with tech developing like it is. While paper is best, this seems to be the future and engaging with these companies to set them the R&D challenge would seem a natural next step.

Oakwood Controls SPORTSMAN H-BAR Portable Electronic Target System
http://www.shootingwire.com/story/dc...f-0be66e1add5a

have one, it will get shot unless the MD protects the unit. We use it several times at the SHC and it gets shot a lot unless you cover it

 

[timintx]

They worked great at the first ko2m,they could give you velocity at the target,group size and a host of data . The problem for ELR is that the bullets must be supersonic in order for the sensors to pick up the shot.

 

[Early Cuyler]

While sensor Target's are good for detecting location of hits and velocity at Target, is that what is desired for shoots like Ko2M and similar? My understanding is they care more about the number of hits on a given target as opposed to group size. In that vein, I would assume it would be more beneficial and cost effective to have a metal target with a camera relay that's shielded. It doesn't give you all the info the sensors do, but it will tell you hits v misses.

I have used sensor targets at 1k and there's always a hint of fear regarding a blown wind call, pulling the shot, etc. such that a (pricey) sensor may be hit. I can only imagine the increased variables beyond a mile. We never hit one but the worry was there.

Hopefully ELR gets to that point- where setups, loads, technique, etc. are good enough such that we CAN use sensors. I would love to see that level precision and accuracy (far beyond my abilities) so we can get even more data. I would love the Ko2M come down to who had a 24" vs 25" group on target. It may be a ways off but a boy can dream!

​​​​

 

[Hairy Biker]

That is the point I am trying to make to you. There is no point cloud dreaming a technology without engaging the guys playing with the stuff for real. If you do not have a specification sheet for "the ideal" ELR electronic target yet, pull out your favourite green crayon and write one up before SHOT and let these guys building the systems know.

 

[Lowlight]

Plus remember the Oakwood HBAR is over $3k ( they might have a cheaper one now)

You have ELR match directors complaining about the cost of target cams, now you want to use a product that cost 3.5x more money per target...

Yes they (Oakwood) are excellent at supporting the community but you won't see them everywhere because they cost a lot

As was mentioned above, it's a sound bar, if it's not supersonic no crack, no registering the shot. At ELR distances, especially beyond 2500, most stuff is subsonic

 

[Hairy Biker]

Electronic targets are advancing. It is physics. Sub-sonic still is registrable. If you are going to throw so much time, money and effort (not to mention emotion) into this then have the conversation with these guys. Excuses are for the sheeple.

 

[oinco]

While I appreciate the fervor, why so much want for a governing body? Do people need to be validated by a staffed acronym? SMH.

A device that limits speed on an engine is called a "governor" for a reason- governance inherently sets limits. The only reason I can see for the desire to set limits in a developmental endeavor, is to be able to sell the idea that the playing field is equal.

We need events. Events build awareness. Awareness builds a market. Markets bring innovation, accessibility, viability, and greater affordability.

Lets' save governance for crude industrial engines.

 

[Hoffer]

The limits have been pretty much set as far as ELR C records are concerned with their rules for "world records". This most likely because of the past "world records" claimed. I am am all in favor of limited rules, but once a set of rules are in place as in ELR C you need an entity to oversee them.
The entity can not be controlled solely by one team. It is in it's infancy and things will change. This being the reason for stating opinions before and not after things are set in stone.