ELR Bullets/different alloys

[coldboreAU]

Hey guys,
I would like to discuss the topic of alloys in detail. This is not a comparison between manufacturers. It is only about copper, bronze, brass alloys.

Solid copper bullets are usually made of c14500 and c14700. I have also seen that c10100-c11100 alloy is used but should be more difficult to machine. BC of a bullet depends mainly on shape and weight, density. For all those who say copper is the only mystical material that works. I disagree because I can't see why.
There are many copper, brass, bronze, phosphor bronze alloys with good mechanical properties. I'm talking about same density and same machinability rating as copper. To name one for now c54400.
Machinability rating 80%
Density 0.321 lb/in³
C54400 ho2 is around 67 rockwell b.
For all those who say that is harder than copper and harder bullets can cause pressure spikes. Yes and no...
67 rockwell on the B scale is not really hard. Your 416r ss barrel is much harder, around 30 rockwell C. Secondly, you can design a bullet so that it has driving bands. So that only the driving bands fully engage the grooves. With the right design there should be no problems.

As always, I appreciate any input.

 

[badassgunworks]

Driving bands are old tech . Almost impossable to get the best b.c. with driving bands each band reduces b.c. by 5 points with a sleek long nose long sleek boat tail the well designed bullet wil have a short bearing surface so there is no value what so ever for driving bands. One of the biggest issue with mechining bullets is finding stress free super straight barstock cause with a swiss mechine it must be perfect stress free material. What ever you choose must have properties what are low deflection when turning if not your bullets will be crap. Crooked. some times the best turning products dont always make the best bullets. feed and speed and dimond inserts. Designed chip braker can make. The turning prosess perfect

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Hey guys,
I would like to discuss the topic of alloys in detail. This is not a comparison between manufacturers. It is only about copper, bronze, brass alloys.

Solid copper bullets are usually made of c14500 and c14700. I have also seen that c10100-c11100 alloy is used but should be more difficult to machine. BC of a bullet depends mainly on shape and weight, density. For all those who say copper is the only mystical material that works. I disagree because I can't see why.
There are many copper, brass, bronze, phosphor bronze alloys with good mechanical properties. I'm talking about same density and same machinability rating as copper. To name one for now c54400.
Machinability rating 80%
Density 0.321 lb/in³
C54400 ho2 is around 67 rockwell b.
For all those who say that is harder than copper and harder bullets can cause pressure spikes. Yes and no...
67 rockwell on the B scale is not really hard. Your 416r ss barrel is much harder, around 30 rockwell C. Secondly, you can design a bullet so that it has driving bands. So that only the driving bands fully engage the grooves. With the right design there should be no problems.

As always, I appreciate any input.

The c54400 is fine. I've shot bullets made from it in the past but it has a lower density than the tellurium copper alloys so it isn't a popular choice. Some of the first solids made for the 50 were actually leaded steel alloys. Drive bands were 20/1000" long and from all accounts they were a bit hard on the throat. Bronze shouldn't matter too much though.

Driving bands are old tech . Almost impossable to get the best b.c. with driving bands each band reduces b.c. by 5 points with a sleek long nose long sleek boat tail the well designed bullet wil have a short bearing surface so there is no value what so ever for driving bands. One of the biggest issue with mechining bullets is finding stress free super straight barstock cause with a swiss mechine it must be perfect stress free material. What ever you choose must have properties what are low deflection when turning if not your bullets will be crap. Crooked. some times the best turning products dont always make the best bullets. feed and speed and dimond inserts. Designed chip braker can make. The turning prosess perfect

And yet there are no bullets that fly for shit that are like what you are describing. What works in theory takes giant bites from a shit sandwich in reality. And actually even theory says what you are describing is wrong. Sleek boat tails have terrible dynamic instability which is why every bullet that has them is useless at long range. Making a bullet that is uncompromising in its optimization for BC is a bullet that will suck in actual use.

-Alex

 

[coldboreAU]

@badassgunworks
Even if each band reduces the BC by 5 points. Muzzle velocity also plays a part.
If I can accelerate a well designed bullet with driving bands 5% faster then it has an effect on the BC. Seriously, there are so many alloys. Copper has been used since the beginning of time. Copper is not bad, I have nothing against it. But I don't think that copper is the only material that is well for long range shooting. All major manufacturers use driving bands, alignment bands, or something similar. Look at the images.

The c54400 is fine. I've shot bullets made from it in the past but it has a lower density than the tellurium copper alloys so it isn't a popular choice. Some of the first solids made for the 50 were actually leaded steel alloys. Drive bands were 20/1000" long and from all accounts they were a bit hard on the throat. Bronze shouldn't matter too much though.

Were the c54400 bullets made by yourself or custom bullets made by a company? If you want tell me more about it.


@all
Would any of you really be worry about using material of 67 rockwell B hardness? Even without driving bands, with the right design and alignment bands it should be no problem.

 

[badassgunworks]

The c54400 is fine. I've shot bullets made from it in the past but it has a lower density than the tellurium copper alloys so it isn't a popular choice. Some of the first solids made for the 50 were actually leaded steel alloys. Drive bands were 20/1000" long and from all accounts they were a bit hard on the throat. Bronze shouldn't matter too much though.


And yet there are no bullets that fly for shit that are like what you are describing. What works in theory takes giant bites from a shit sandwich in reality. And actually even theory says what you are describing is wrong. Sleek boat tails have terrible dynamic instability which is why every bullet that has them is useless at long range. Making a bullet that is uncompromising in its optimization for BC is a bullet that will suck in actual use.

-Alex

Short of arguement ill just say no comment.

 

[coldboreAU]

So I finally get the feeling that I have to say something. Guys I don't open threads here for people to argue.
I like to hear different opinions. I try to keep my mind open just in case there are better alloys. I believe both bronze and copper alloys have their purpose. Different areas of application.
@badassgunworks in fact, you are much smarter than i thought. I always like to hear your opinion.

@Sandow the Heretic
It is exactly as I said. Everyone can say when they disagree but in a nice way.
You can only say he is wrong if you can prove it to him.

 

[badassgunworks]

Alex is referring to comments made by Applied Ballistics about longer sleeker bullets having bcsd and transition issues however that comment was also followed up with generally not always in fact they even mentioned a company that produces very high BC Bullets that were long and sleek that for some unknown reason did not fall into that category. Coldbore please note that the most recent record that was set 5 for 5 was by randy ofsted not Randy Powell the record that was set was with the use of a bullet made by Badlands that does not have any bands cut in it. Randy Powell's bullets do

 

[coldboreAU]

 

[TripleBull]

Guys I don't open threads here for people to argue. I like to hear different opinions. (snip)

ELR is evolving and there is the theoretical side and the observation & measurement-based side. I doubt that it will ever be reduced to a series of equations that predict every scenario or material chosen.

It's normal, and even healthy for people to argue, as long as it doesn't get so hostile people quit listening. If you are going to ask questions about the future, you should expect that people with different points of view are going to argue.

Go attend any conference of a branch of science where there are hot new developments and watch how leading scientists yell, name-call and occasionally do a really poor job of wrestling or embarrassingly bad attempts at fist fighting. Pretty entertaining at times.

 

[coldboreAU]

Discussing is perfectly fine. People arguing or disagreeing about something is okay but at the point where people start attacking each other personally is not fine.

My point of view is between "I dont think so" and " you are wrong" is a difference.
And yes I ask a lot about future technology and I see some things totally different.

I look to the brass production. I think why it is mostly still the same old WW2 technology/process.
When I see F-class guys sorting primers by weight, I think there should be no need. Why nobody develops better primers. When I look at the old 50bmg then i wonder why use cartridges that have an operating pressure of 50,000-55,000 psi because much higher is possible with new wildcats.

To say about alloys that only one is well would be the same as to say there is only one rubber compound for tires.
I joined snipershide to learn, to get data, and to hear different opinions. Unfortunately, I think that a lot of the smartest guys are silent and prefer to say nothing. For whatever reason.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

@badassgunworks
Even if each band reduces the BC by 5 points. Muzzle velocity also plays a part.
If I can accelerate a well designed bullet with driving bands 5% faster then it has an effect on the BC. Seriously, there are so many alloys. Copper has been used since the beginning of time. Copper is not bad, I have nothing against it. But I don't think that copper is the only material that is well for long range shooting. All major manufacturers use driving bands, alignment bands, or something similar. Look at the images.



Were the c54400 bullets made by yourself or custom bullets made by a company? If you want tell me more about it.


@all
Would any of you really be worry about using material of 67 rockwell B hardness? Even without driving bands, with the right design and alignment bands it should be no problem.

They were from a few manufacturers. Been about 15 years since I shot them but I think some were from Spider Firearms and others were from Lazzerini and McMurdo. None of them were bad bullets but they were also no better than cheaper alternatives. Keep in mind that on the 50 BMG side of things, solids are what we have shot for decades so while a lot of things seem like new concepts in the ELR world are kinda old hat for most of us. Most bullets used in FCSA comp are brass these days and copper solids are fairly rare still. The reality is that the lower density of brass works out well to give bullets of the size we want in the weight we want. Copper solids end up a bit too short and you can get a bit finer of a nosecone and still have very good stability. Even in brass we are shooting projectiles that are as much as 150 grains heavier than ball. 50 BMG is an odd duck though and is a pretty terrible cartridge design if I'm being honest.

Discussing is perfectly fine. People arguing or disagreeing about something is okay but at the point where people start attacking each other personally is not fine.

My point of view is between "I dont think so" and " you are wrong" is a difference.

I agree within limits. There are things that are debatable and then there are things that are just incorrect. If misinformation is being put out as fact then "You are fucking wrong" is better service to the community than debate.

The bullet Randy shot has a drive band (it just has shallow angled shoulders) and a fairly long shank that is just over the lands in diameter. Particularly on a K&P which are a bit tight. More distinct drive bands often have lower amounts of metal displaced during swaging into the bore. They will create a more noticeable drag point in supersonic flight but often times the position of that increased drag can move the center of pressure closer to the center of gravity. Remember, drag in the right place can be stabilizing which is why engineering a bullet strictly for BC is often a failed endeavor in terms of actual performance.

Alex is referring to comments made by Applied Ballistics about longer sleeker bullets having bcsd and transition issues however that comment was also followed up with generally not always in fact they even mentioned a company that produces very high BC Bullets that were long and sleek that for some unknown reason did not fall into that category. Coldbore please note that the most recent record that was set 5 for 5 was by randy ofsted not Randy Powell the record that was set was with the use of a bullet made by Badlands that does not have any bands cut in it. Randy Powell's bullets do

Actually I'm referring to a DoD research publication from the 1965. Nihil sub sole novum...

-Alex

 

[coldboreAU]

Even in brass we are shooting projectiles that are as much as 150 grains heavier than ball. 50 BMG is an odd duck though and is a pretty

What alloy is used? C36000?

The bullet Randy shot has a drive band (it just has shallow angled shoulders) and a fairly long shank that is just over the lands in diameter.

Are you talking about Randy ofstad or Randy powell? Just to not confuse anyone.

 

[coldboreAU]

I have seen bronze/brass bullets at Windcut bullets, 520 grain .416 cal. But I do not know what alloy is used. If i remeber correctly they did even make 570 grain or 575 grain bullets. Does anyone know what alloy it is?

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

What alloy is used? C36000?


Are you talking about Randy ofstad or Randy powell? Just to not confuse anyone.

I couldn't tell you if they are that or C38500. It hardly comes up in conversations. I'd be surprised if I haven't shot bullets made of both. One of the more interesting post machining tweaks I've seen is annealing the bullets in a vacuum furnace after machining. Result is noticeably less fowling but I don't know any manufacturers that do it themselves.

Ofstad. I've found his bullets downrange and the engraving on them is distinct. I'll post a pic if I can find one. The 460 make some great flowers... If you just look at them you wouldn't really guess there is a drive band but if you run calipers down them it is obvious. The shoulder angle on the band is shallow so it doesn't stand out like on a laser. It is still a drive band bullet though. Larger bullets have dramatically higher surface area on the shank than on little guns so the few bullets that are not drive band bullets are kinda terrible. Amax for instance in the 50 can't be driven very quickly because there is nearly a full inch of full bore shank that needs to be swaged into the bore. 750 grain solids by comparison can be pushed about 300 fps faster pretty comfortably. Nobody makes solids that have full bore shanks for large bores.

There are a lot of different approaches to them. Most have a drive band at the back and then a land diameter shank (bore-rider) or slightly over the land diameter (Usually called hybrid). Some have a drive band closer to the middle for one reason or another. The multi-band bullets have fairly high surface drag but can be pushed pretty fast without pressure signs so it is a tradeoff. Some split the difference and have a primary drive band and then a second smaller one towards the front. I think cutting edge calls it a "seal tight band" but it is essentially the same as a bourrelet which dates back to about the civil war.

badassgunworks more or less described this initially which is essentially a truncated Sears-Haack body. If you do the math, they end up with a fair amount of material that needs to be swaged during engraving so they are slower than comparable weight bullets. They have a tendency to engrave off axis compared to bore riders and they are simply not stable in flight. A bullet with a great BC that can't hit the broad side of a barn is probably not the next great thing...

-Alex

 

[Geno C.]

I couldn't tell you if they are that or C38500. It hardly comes up in conversations. I'd be surprised if I haven't shot bullets made of both. One of the more interesting post machining tweaks I've seen is annealing the bullets in a vacuum furnace after machining. Result is noticeably less fowling but I don't know any manufacturers that do it themselves.

Ofstad. I've found his bullets downrange and the engraving on them is distinct. I'll post a pic if I can find one. The 460 make some great flowers... If you just look at them you wouldn't really guess there is a drive band but if you run calipers down them it is obvious. The shoulder angle on the band is shallow so it doesn't stand out like on a laser. It is still a drive band bullet though. Larger bullets have dramatically higher surface area on the shank than on little guns so the few bullets that are not drive band bullets are kinda terrible. Amax for instance in the 50 can't be driven very quickly because there is nearly a full inch of full bore shank that needs to be swaged into the bore. 750 grain solids by comparison can be pushed about 300 fps faster pretty comfortably. Nobody makes solids that have full bore shanks for large bores.

There are a lot of different approaches to them. Most have a drive band at the back and then a land diameter shank (bore-rider) or slightly over the land diameter (Usually called hybrid). Some have a drive band closer to the middle for one reason or another. The multi-band bullets have fairly high surface drag but can be pushed pretty fast without pressure signs so it is a tradeoff. Some split the difference and have a primary drive band and then a second smaller one towards the front. I think cutting edge calls it a "seal tight band" but it is essentially the same as a bourrelet which dates back to about the civil war.

badassgunworks more or less described this initially which is essentially a truncated Sears-Haack body. If you do the math, they end up with a fair amount of material that needs to be swaged during engraving so they are slower than comparable weight bullets. They have a tendency to engrave off axis compared to bore riders and they are simply not stable in flight. A bullet with a great BC that can't hit the broad side of a barn is probably not the next great thing...

-Alex

View attachment 7875035

The 460 that Randy O is shooting makes such great flowers because of the alloy that badlands uses. It is very distinctive compared to others

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

The 460 that Randy O is shooting makes such great flowers because of the alloy that badlands uses. It is very distinctive compared to others

You know for a fact that it isn't C145?

-Alex

 

[Geno C.]

I know it’s not what any other bullet I’ve seen recovered from Spearpoint is made of. I can get the alloy if it’s important

 

[coldboreAU]

I promise, Badlands does not use c145 or c147. I know it but I don't want to post it. The reason is I don't know if I'm allowed to post the alloy Cxxxx.... What someone writes to me in an e-mail stays there.

Edit:I guess badlands hasn't changed the alloy in the last few months. Otherwise I'll make an Idiot of myself.

 

[badassgunworks]

I promise, Badlands does not use c145 or c147. I know it but I don't want to post it. The reason is I don't know if I'm allowed to post the alloy Cxxxx.... What someone writes to me in an e-mail stays there.

Edit:I guess badlands hasn't changed the alloy in the last few months. Otherwise I'll make an Idiot of myself.

They dont use free meching copper they use 99.9 % pure copper c-110 or c-101 c-102

 

[jasent]

I’m loving the badlands bullets

 

[DeathBeforeDismount]

I’m loving the badlands bullets

Which ones are you running?

 

[jasent]

Which ones are you running?

205gr 30 cal super bulldozer 2’s

 

[coldboreAU]

Does anyone know which bullet it is?

 

[badassgunworks]

Does anyone know which bullet it is?

A very low bc one.....

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Does anyone know which bullet it is?

Looks like a thunder ammo bullet but I think Lehigh made something similar at one point too though. The rounding at the very tip makes me thing it was made by Lehigh. Hard to tell if that is a Von Karman nose profile but both use it. The banded solids can be pushed pretty quickly safely so they trade MV for increased body drag.

-Alex

 

[Geno C.]

Does anyone know which bullet it is?

Looks like the 350gr Lehigh 375 bullets I have

 

[coldboreAU]

@Geno C.
Unfortunately, since Lehigh is done making (custom) bullets for the public, it doesn't really matter. Anyway, thanks for the information.