Elr central world record event

[ELR researcher]

Since the info posted by Frank in the "Shot Show" thread was noted as Rev 7, and the final doc is rev 10 (and IMO that title needed help), here are the official title and official link to the FINAL document

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/EL...olAdQYBnOFy2lun-QJBCGpVr0yjYhdup6-Eqmmr5Tc3sI

 

[LastShot300]

Some of the rules are simply not making any sense. Now we deal with rail guns? Who has determined the target size? The proposed rules are in a clear need of more feedback and iterations.

 

[Lowlight]

Oscar,

Relax,

I know what Rev is what, I was traveling to an event in New Mexico, I spoke to Paul as he updated the Rev in the middle of my prep...

He knew I was updating after I landed at my destination, it's like 12 hours

 

[oneshot.onehit]

Why is this not classed or simply a branch of F-class?

50lbs weight limit whew

Not that be of a deal, you take a heavy 50 cal action and a barrel throw it in a XLR chassis and your close to 50 lbs witha scope. And it looks like a typical large cal gun.

Cheers



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Jeffvn]

No one says your rig needs to be that heavy. My .338LM Improved is roughly 18 lbs. you can run what you own. the weight limit keeps the actual beast guns out. you gotta be able to move it to and from the line, and set it up quickly. I'll probably run my version of a 300 Norma Magnum.

Jeffvn

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Some of the rules are simply not making any sense. Now we deal with rail guns? Who has determined the target size? The proposed rules are in a clear need of more feedback and iterations.

Which rule do you feel doesn't make sense?

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Downloads/ELR CENTRAL WORLD RECORD EVENT.pdf

 

[Clearlight]

Seems pretty straight forward to me . I can’t make it over the pond
to Shot Show this year , but will be watching this with great interest .

 

[LastShot300]

Which rule do you feel doesn't make sense?

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/...RD%20EVENT.pdf

Would be nice to know the rationale behind most of the rules. The way Rev10 as it is now written is not self-explaining. Granted I may be the only one to care about why the rules are what they are while many others don't. However failing to detail the purpose about some of the critical ones is not prone to let them be established somehow as a "standard".

A couple of examples: why the 36" target size? Same for all distances? Why one rifle per shooter? Is this about the rifle or the man behind it? Why the 4-hours time gap? Mixing up all kind of calibers will naturally tend to create classes some way or another...etc, etc.

Let me close by saying I like the idea of setting up some rules for defining what's a WR. So improving on the proposed framework is quite critical to ensure success.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

The rules were developed with help from dozens of competitive shooters and people working in the industry. It was a group effort to try to make it open to anyone and everyone, but also to make it a reasonable achievement. This is what the community was able to come to a close agreement on.

 

[Early Cuyler]

First off, I love the idea of getting some sort of "standard" for world record shots. Also appreciate the work yall are doing to organize it and heard all the cats involved. Some (potentially stupid) questions though with the rules:

Rule 5 on weight - Does this mean an Atlas 5H bipod (or similar) will count towards the 50lb limit but an SEB joystick-style rest won't?

Rule 21 (wording) - Should that be "or his designee" instead of "or his designate"

Rule 23 on witnesses - whats the definition of "witness". Is it people that watch the monitor for an impact or are other people (other than the shooter/spotter) looking through spotting scopes count as well?

Rules 25/26 - Will there be two record classes of "team" and "individual" or will they all be lumped in together?


Really wish I could be there to watch, but will definitely follow the results.

 

[Jeffvn]

I can't speak for the group, but from my view the answers to your questions are:

5. yes, just like F-Class. If it is physically attached to the rifle (bipod, etc.) when you lift the rifle it counts towards the weight of the rifle

21. yes designee

23. good question
(with 20 folks on the line at the same time I'm pretty sure the 4 or 5 who are waiting to shoot next will all be glued to their scopes too try to learn something from the shots that re put down range). There are going to be at least 2 ROs on the firing Line and the match director on hand, each can fill the slot as "witnesses."

25/26 - 2 different records "individual" and "team"

It will be an interesting event.

 

[White Mamba]

What's up with the 36" square target?. Cut that sucker in half and it would be close to realistic target at long range.

 

[Clearlight]

^^^ With the rules in mind , I’m not so sure . If there is any wind around ,
I’m thinking the number of shooters hitting first round at 2k plus , is going
to be low .

 

[WaltHer]

Will spectators be allowed? Not sure if I can shoot it but I'm going to be there anyway...

 

[MontanaMarine]

What's up with the 36" square target?. Cut that sucker in half and it would be close to realistic target at long range.

I'd guess because 36" still gives a 1 moa target at 2 miles. That will get tough to see already in mirage, dust, etc.

Maybe a 36" steel with an 18" scoring center would be legit.

 

[White Mamba]

I'd guess because 36" still gives a 1 moa target at 2 miles. That will get tough to see already in mirage, dust, etc.

Maybe a 36" steel with an 18" scoring center would be legit.

That wouldn't be a bad idea.
Right now this is nothing more than marketing for the industry and a feel good target

 

[Bradu]

It seems like a big target and generally speaking it is but to go 3 out of 3 could be tough even at one mile if the wind is blowing. I'm sure not everyone will like the rules but at least it's a good start in the right direction. I'm just glad it's not this one hit hail mary bullshit. Hopefully after one or two of these everyone can come together and put together a good set of rules that most will agree upon.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

Will spectators be allowed? Not sure if I can shoot it but I'm going to be there anyway...

Yes.

 

[DocUSMCRetired]

It seems like a big target and generally speaking it is but to go 3 out of 3 could be tough even at one mile if the wind is blowing. I'm sure not everyone will like the rules but at least it's a good start in the right direction. I'm just glad it's not this one hit hail mary bullshit. Hopefully after one or two of these everyone can come together and put together a good set of rules that most will agree upon.

These rules were put together by shooters and people in the industry. This was the best compromise between a large group of people.What you have is a great set of rules, put together to finally have a real world record.

 

[THEIS]

put together to finally have a real world record.

Hi,

Who is the sanctioning board for this "World Record"? Because for anything to be a "record" you must have a sanctioning authority, whether it be a world record or organization record.

ELR Central?
ELR HQ?
Long Range Only?
Front Site?
NRA?
Guinness?
AB Weapons Division?
AB "Non Weapons Division"?

Everyone is throwing out the term "World Record" like they are riding on a Mardi Gras float and being shown perfect C cup titties.
When truthfully it is not "World Record" anything....but more along lines of Organization/Association "Record"

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[Hoffer]

Hi,

Who is the sanctioning board for this "World Record"? Because for anything to be a "record" you must have a sanctioning authority, whether it be a world record or organization record.

ELR Central?
ELR HQ?
Long Range Only?
Front Site?
NRA?
Guinness?
AB Weapons Division?
AB "Non Weapons Division"?

Everyone is throwing out the term "World Record" like they are riding on a Mardi Gras float and being shown perfect C cup titties.
When truthfully it is not "World Record" anything....but more along lines of Organization/Association "Record"

Sincerely,
THEIS

I see 6 pages of replies coming

 

[THEIS]

I see 6 pages of replies coming

Hi,

Well lets hope one of the replies has the answer
Because here is how it lays out to me...

ELR Central: Per Bryans mission statement of "“Our mission is to advance the state of the art in Extreme Long Range rifle shooting by: sharing knowledge, promoting awareness, and encouraging best practices within the ELR community.”

It appears ELR Central was setup to be an information source more than an organizational source with bylaws, membership and agreed upon operating procedures, so unless the mission statement needs changing I do not see how an "information source entity" can sanction any record.

ELR HQ: Is a commercial retail entity that caters to the shooting world, so I do not see how a retail company can sanction any record.

Long Range Only: They are a membership driven entity that could "sanction" it but it could only be sanctioned as an LRO "Record".

Front Site: They are a training institution, they could sanction it as a Front Site "Record".

NRA: They could sanction it as a National Record under their organization but the rules would have to be voted and put into their organizational bylaws and policies.

Guinness: They are the true holder and sanctioning body of "World Records". They could sanction it but the record criteria would have to be submitted and approved by their agents. Along with their agents controlling the event to ensure the approved upon criteria was followed.

AB "Weapons Division": is a commercial retail entity that caters to the shooting world, so I do not see how a retail company can sanction any record.

AB "Non Weapons Division": is a commercial retail entity that caters to the shooting world, so I do not see how a retail company can sanction any record.

Bottom Line is a record is only as good as the organization that it is held under..BUT it is just that...AN ORGANIZATION RECORD, not "World Record".
PRS does not dictate how/what FTR shoots.
FCSA does not dictate how/what NBRSA shoots.
They are all individual organizations that shooters join and agree to their bylaws and policies. Their bylaws and policies are ONLY good for their particular organization, NOT for the entire shooting genres.

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[LastShot300]

Hi,

Well lets hope one of the replies has the answer
Because here is how it lays out to me...

ELR Central: Per Bryans mission statement of "“Our mission is to advance the state of the art in Extreme Long Range rifle shooting by: sharing knowledge, promoting awareness, and encouraging best practices within the ELR community.”

It appears ELR Central was setup to be an information source more than an organizational source with bylaws, membership and agreed upon operating procedures, so unless the mission statement needs changing I do not see how an "information source entity" can sanction any record.

ELR HQ: Is a commercial retail entity that caters to the shooting world, so I do not see how a retail company can sanction any record.

Long Range Only: They are a membership driven entity that could "sanction" it but it could only be sanctioned as an LRO "Record".

Front Site: They are a training institution, they could sanction it as a Front Site "Record".

NRA: They could sanction it as a National Record under their organization but the rules would have to be voted and put into their organizational bylaws and policies.

Guinness: They are the true holder and sanctioning body of "World Records". They could sanction it but the record criteria would have to be submitted and approved by their agents. Along with their agents controlling the event to ensure the approved upon criteria was followed.

AB "Weapons Division": is a commercial retail entity that caters to the shooting world, so I do not see how a retail company can sanction any record.

AB "Non Weapons Division": is a commercial retail entity that caters to the shooting world, so I do not see how a retail company can sanction any record.

Bottom Line is a record is only as good as the organization that it is held under..BUT it is just that...AN ORGANIZATION RECORD, not "World Record".
PRS does not dictate how/what FTR shoots.
FCSA does not dictate how/what NBRSA shoots.
They are all individual organizations that shooters join and agree to their bylaws and policies. Their bylaws and policies are ONLY good for their particular organization, NOT for the entire shooting genres.

Sincerely,
THEIS

The missing link here is these "organizations" (which are not) are, as you clearly stated out, trying to control the game of ELR, basically to dominate the business associated with, one way or another.

Caveat: if they are not pursuing any commercial interest per se, the best way to do this is twofold:

- set up a professional, new body, with a board of experts not related in any possible way to any business.
- make a basic draft for rules and accept changes until an agreement is made on them.

Of course, the current organizers of the upcoming event can participate with sponsorship, teams and resources.

Bottom line, as long as these so-called "organizations" rule the game, the term "world record" will be questioned in no time. Like you rightly put it on, this is at best just another event and hardly a "World Record" by any standard.

On the other hand, the word "world" is just too pretentious. Have any LR/ELR group outside the US been asked about these rules? Why not?

It is also very interesting to learn that the "rules" were not put out for any real discussion. The only reason I have seen so far, was to make people aware of them. Period.

 

[spaniel]

To those complaining that the target is too large...how many of you can state that you have shot beyond a mile and found such a target too easy to hit, zero sighters? I have, and I can tell you if there is any wind, hitting a 1 MOA target with zero sighters at 2 miles is NO small feat.

A 1000 yd F-class target black is 44". I've seen good shooters struggle to place rounds on that at beyond a mile. Now take it to two miles, even with bigger rounds....no, this is not an easy feat.

 

[LVshooter]

To those complaining that the target is too large...how many of you can state that you have shot beyond a mile and found such a target too easy to hit, zero sighters? I have, and I can tell you if there is any wind, hitting a 1 MOA target with zero sighters at 2 miles is NO small feat.

A 1000 yd F-class target black is 44". I've seen good shooters struggle to place rounds on that at beyond a mile. Now take it to two miles, even with bigger rounds....no, this is not an easy feat.

I concur. Lets see them put there bullet where there mouth is at 1 MOA target at 2 miles. Easier said then done.

 

[White Mamba]

To those complaining that the target is too large...how many of you can state that you have shot beyond a mile and found such a target too easy to hit, zero sighters? I have, and I can tell you if there is any wind, hitting a 1 MOA target with zero sighters at 2 miles is NO small feat.

A 1000 yd F-class target black is 44". I've seen good shooters struggle to place rounds on that at beyond a mile. Now take it to two miles, even with bigger rounds....no, this is not an easy feat.

https://youtu.be/K-UgarvF1JM

No one denies wind is going to be a major factor. Lets be real , there are 2 generally sized targets people shoot in real life scenarios - Humans and animals , both don't grow larger the farther you shoot out. Windy? Mirage? Hot ,cold? deal with it or get closer. Shooting long range is tough!

 

[hognuts]

I don't think any of us are getting ready to deploy, and my rifle has the same initials as another real life scenario they use our big guns for. HTI. Hard Target Interdiction. (Probably more often the case than soft targets at the distances we are talking about, sure, every once in awhile they make make a Hail Mary, but for the most part,not the case.). Either way, I think the best shooters will rise to the top regardless of what the rule book says or what size target is.

 

[TripleBull]

It's trivial to criticize arbitrary standards, especially when commercial entities are involved. But can you honestly say that if an independent, non-commercial group got together and decided on a different sized target that it would be any less arbitrary? You could pick 1 MOA, with different target size versus distance and that might make more sense to some people, but where is your E=mc2 equivalent fundamental standard for target size, hit frequency, etc.?

 

[White Mamba]

It's trivial to criticize arbitrary standards, especially when commercial entities are involved. But can you honestly say that if an independent, non-commercial group got together and decided on a different sized target that it would be any less arbitrary? You could pick 1 MOA, with different target size versus distance and that might make more sense to some people, but where is your E=mc2 equivalent fundamental standard for target size, hit frequency, etc.?

The reason I mentioned cutting the 36" target in half is because 18" is the average width of a male. The human torso or a rectangle cut close to it is a worldwide metric that you can find people shooting anywhere.
Hog nuts mentioned HTI but I don't know anyone who knows what the world record for shooting cars or antenna arrays is, mostly because no one cares. Im just not sold on a 1moa target regardless of how hard it is at 2miles.
To be clear, I really don't care what some association picks for a target size since I have no vested interest in it.

 

[hognuts]

I don't care what target size or rules are for that matter. . I just like to shoot at shit a long ways out. This is that. If I choose to shoot their event I will play by the rules, if I don't like the rules I wouldn't participate, but it does seem like a good measuring stick when everyone is playing by the same rules, whatever they may be. Arguing over details seems lame. It's definitely better than shooting at something all afternoon until it gets hit.

 

[TripleBull]

I just like to shoot at shit a long ways out. This is that.

Yes it is!

 

[Bradu]

The reason I mentioned cutting the 36" target in half is because 18" is the average width of a male. The human torso or a rectangle cut close to it is a worldwide metric that you can find people shooting anywhere.
Hog nuts mentioned HTI but I don't know anyone who knows what the world record for shooting cars or antenna arrays is, mostly because no one cares. Im just not sold on a 1moa target regardless of how hard it is at 2miles.
To be clear, I really don't care what some association picks for a target size since I have no vested interest in it.

I don't get the torso size target, are you wanting that just so you can compare it to the long shots made by snipers?

 

[White Mamba]

I don't get the torso size target, are you wanting that just so you can compare it to the long shots made by snipers?

Snipers- no.
Realistic shooting scenario based on what working rifles are used for -yes

 

[Bradu]

You don't have to hit something 3 consecutive times with a "working rifle". I fail to see the comparison between an ELR record type event and what you are talking about. A 36" plate even at 2 miles is going to be a bitch when doing a cold bore and 3 out of 3.

 

[White Mamba]

You don't have to hit something 3 consecutive times with a "working rifle". I fail to see the comparison between an ELR record type event and what you are talking about. A 36" plate even at 2 miles is going to be a bitch when doing a cold bore and 3 out of 3.

Ive never said you had to hit something for 3 consecutive times with a working rifle? I agree a 36" plate at 2miles is going to be tough, I never said it wasn't.
Its obvious you don't see the comparison, that's why we are discussing it. My opinion is a torso sized rectangle is a good worldwide accepted standard for size. You think something the size of a industrial washing machine is a good standard .
Im not sure where 2 miles was addressed? The flyer said the event starts at 1500, 1600 ,2000 etc

 

[Milo 2.5]

You don't have to hit something 3 consecutive times with a "working rifle". I fail to see the comparison between an ELR record type event and what you are talking about. A 36" plate even at 2 miles is going to be a bitch when doing a cold bore and 3 out of 3.

Or wake up to a 45mph wind.

 

[Bradu]

Ive never said you had to hit something for 3 consecutive times with a working rifle? I agree a 36" plate at 2miles is going to be tough, I never said it wasn't.
Its obvious you don't see the comparison, that's why we are discussing it. My opinion is a torso sized rectangle is a good worldwide accepted standard for size. You think something the size of a industrial washing machine is a good standard .
Im not sure where 2 miles was addressed? The flyer said the event starts at 1500, 1600 ,2000 etc

The link says 1500-2500+ so I would think if going for a record that would mean they keep going until a miss. I think a large part of that will be what the weather conditions for the day.

 

[Bradu]

Or wake up to a 45mph wind.

I'm betting anywhere far enough to do this will have a good chance of that. It's not like the YouTube videos where they cherry pick the calmest day to show off their skills.

 

[Milo 2.5]

The link says 1500-2500+ so I would think if going for a record that would mean they keep going until a miss. I think a large part of that will be what the weather conditions for the day.

I'm curious if a 1st round miss at 1500 sends you packing? Not reading the rules but last ones were so many hits to advance, now you need a cold bore.

 

[hognuts]

The way I read it you get a chance in am and in afternoon regardless of hit or miss. But you can only make 2 attempts per day. So it won't just keep going, if you pick a distance and hit it and someone else picks a further distance, you don't get to go again to better yourself, unless you hit yours in am, but whatever you go with forclonger of 2 shots is what you will get.

 

[Hoffer]

You can also tie a record which does not make sense to me. You could theoretically have 50 shooters tie for a record at this event.
A record should be broken by a minimum amount ... say 1% for example.

 

[hognuts]

Got my paperwork sent in yesterday finally. Let's burn some powder!

 

[URSA Facilitator]

I concur. Lets see them put there bullet where there mouth is at 1 MOA target at 2 miles. Easier said then done.

There is no discussion of MOA because the targets to be used are not round. While Bryan and others have mentioned using MOA as a target size criteria, the final decision was to shoot what you have available. That noted, they "could" have made round targets available and then MOA would have been available. I note MOA because it is a very we established measure of achievement. That and there are commercially-available paper targets with a series of rings. That is the exact reason URSA uses a 37" round target - 37" is the outermost ring in IBS and NBRSA 1000 yard paper targets, URSA does not currently shoot for "group" but with a target camera that is certainly doable - some of the associated software will even record each hit location to facilitate immediate MOA gratification. And paper is a bunch less expensive and easier to field than steel. Bottom line, they aren't using it, so a rather moot point at this time.

 

[URSA Facilitator]

Bill - is Robert also shooting this event? Kurt?

 

[MontanaMarine]

Am I missing something, or is ammo expended six rounds for the day (not including 100yd zero check) if you make all your hits? One and done for the AM if it's a miss? same in the PM?

 

[sinister]

THEIS made the point of an international body (whether that's Guiness or whomever). I find it interesting that VihtaVuori and Lapua are the only (?) international business participants. Were any other international shooters invited, or is this like baseball's world series -- in name only?

 

[LastShot300]

THEIS made the point of an international body (whether that's Guiness or whomever). I find it interesting that VihtaVuori and Lapua are the only (?) international business participants. Were any other international shooters invited, or is this like baseball's world series -- in name only?

I'm afraid it is in "name only" since I haven't found any feedback from across the pond.

 

[hognuts]

Bill - is Robert also shooting this event? Kurt?

Robert is shooting it for sure, Kurt was still up in the air last I checked, but I think we can talk him into it!

 

[hognuts]

Am I missing something, or is ammo expended six rounds for the day (not including 100yd zero check) if you make all your hits? One and done for the AM if it's a miss? same in the PM?

I think you can shoot your remaining shots, just to see if you can get impacts, but pretty much its going to be for not if you don't connect on all three. (am and pm)

 

[Mr.BR]

Late entrant , might be over the weight limit ?

Seriously how many foreign registrations so far? For KO2M i know of at least one that will enter ,