Elr central world record event

[THEIS]

Seriously how many foreign registrations so far?

Hi,

I would venture to say none really. The time, more precisely the lack of time from announcement to event date is just not enough weeks to get a temporary import license from BATFE to the get temporary export license from their respective home country...not to mention (reason I asked about what organization is sanctioning event) there needs to be a sanctioning organization that would provide official invites to an official event so the international participants could even file for the temporary licenses.

But right off the top of my head the below people/groups should have been invited to anything considered "world" anything in regards to ELR. Not a complete list by no means...

Finaccuracy Group

Davide Pisenti (sp) and his Italian Group

Lobaev Arms and his Russian Group but they can't get weapons into USA due to embargo restrictions.

EXLRS Group from Netherlands

Mark & Sam from Australia

Benjamin Gineste (sp) and his group from France

Delta Technics group from Ukraine

ELR Poland

Nassir and the special projects division of Caracal

Jordanian SF training detachment at KASOTC

etc, etc

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[Hoffer]

Don't think Mark and Sam would show. I have been in contact with them and the reason they do what they do is to keep away from the BS of competitions. Tends to turn people into prize table warriors.
They are happy doing their own thing without restrictive rules and progressing the sport on their own terms.

 

[TripleBull]

You can also tie a record which does not make sense to me. You could theoretically have 50 shooters tie for a record at this event.
A record should be broken by a minimum amount ... say 1% for example.

See rule #24 - to break an existing record, the increment is 10 yards. Tying records is common in record books.

 

[Hoffer]

See rule #24 - to break an existing record, the increment is 10 yards. Tying records is common in record books.

See rule #27 If more than one shooter scores 3 for 3 at a given distance, both shooters will hold the world record until another shooter goes 3 for 3 at a longer distance.

Assuming #27 is for this event only

 

[Milo 2.5]

One question, I'm assuming steel targets, are they going to get repainted at all during this? In my head I can see a 2200 yard plate riddled with 7mm on up, be distinct advantage to shoot first if not.

 

[TripleBull]

See rule #27 If more than one shooter scores 3 for 3 at a given distance, both shooters will hold the world record until another shooter goes 3 for 3 at a longer distance.
Assuming #27 is for this event only

You have to start somewhere once you pick a convention. The rules seem straightforward to me.

One question, I'm assuming steel targets, are they going to get repainted at all during this? In my head I can see a 2200 yard plate riddled with 7mm on up, be distinct advantage to shoot first if not.

See rule #10.

 

[Jeffvn]

When a plate gets repainted is going to be up to the guys running the firing point and or match. No details on that process have been shared so far (at least that I have seen).

Jeffvn

 

[Hairy Biker]

Jeffvn's and Hoffer's comments highlight why this format, as it stands, will fail. Unfortunately the rest of the thread has done nothing to convince me that this discipline is anything beyond the individual, highly experimental point.

Firstly, the personality type that wants to succeed at this distance is a distinctly individual one, and one whose ideas are uniquely the way forward. The AB approach is based around teamwork and that seems to be ruffling a lot of Christmas feathers.

Secondly, the format is vastly different to any other competitive shooting in that shooters are not competing against shooter in the the same time detail. So the conditions you shoot in may be vastly different to those previously or after. Wear and tear on the target will either extend the day, or disadvantage others.

Thirdly, it is not clear what the ultimate aim is. To undertake the longest recorded shot in competition should be an incremental and staged event where all competitors compete at all ranges and a total result is recorded. The beast way for this to occur is on paper targets in a Butts style. 1KBR and its derivatives have shown us how this can work. Match Rifle has shown us how long range shooting can work. If the collective "we" are going to throw so much money into this emerging discipline then getting the target end sorted out first has to be a prerequiste.

So taking the cat, giving it a good shake, and rolling it into the pigeons ... Take a leaf out of Match Rifle and 1000 yard BR. Shoot five shot serials for group and score across three to four ranges on a Butts each day starting at 2000m and moving back to 4000m. Standardise that over a 3 - 5 year period and watch the skill set grow and watch competitor numbers grow.

If someone could sort that range out you would truly have a world class event.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Jeffvn's and Hoffer's comments highlight why this format, as it stands, will fail. Unfortunately the rest of the thread has done nothing to convince me that this discipline is anything beyond the individual, highly experimental point.

Firstly, the personality type that wants to succeed at this distance is a distinctly individual one, and one whose ideas are uniquely the way forward. The AB approach is based around teamwork and that seems to be ruffling a lot of Christmas feathers.

Secondly, the format is vastly different to any other competitive shooting in that shooter's are not competing against shooter in the the same time detail. So the conditions you shoot in may be vastly different to those previously or after. Wear and tear on the target will either extend the day, or disadvantage others.

Thirdly, it is not clear what the ultimate aim is. To undertake the longest recorded shot in competition should be an incremental and staged event where all competitors compete at all ranges and a total result is recorded. The beast way for this to occur is on paper targets in a Butts style. 1KBR and its derivatives have shown us how this can work. Match Rifle has shown us how long range shooting can work. If the collective "we" are going to throw so much money into this emerging discipline then getting the target end sorted out first has to be a prerequiste.

So taking the cat, giving it a good shake, and rolling it into the pigeons ... Take a leaf out of Match Rifle and 1000 yard BR. Shoot five shot serials for group and score across three to four ranges on a Butts each day starting at 2000m and moving back to 4000m. Standardise that over a 3 - 5 year period and watch the skill set grow and watch competitor numbers grow.

If someone could sort that range out you would truly have a world class event.

I'm not on anyone's side here, best to let something implode by itself, rather than tearing it down from outside before it gets going. This represents .005% of the shooting community at best right now, I hope it grows and no one or organization has total control.
My issue would be not only the exorbitant expense of equipment, actually was there, but the expense, travel time, 1K miles, to maybe fire 4 rds and face palm my empty head all the back home.
I think the disdain of past ELR hallmarks may have been taken too far.

 

[Dan Warner]

I've been eating my pop corn and watching this thread from the cheap seats, but can do that no longer. While I come from the target shooting game of LR 1000 yard competition, there is no way one could ever feasibly take ERL onto that type of playing field. There are only a handful of places in this country that we can go and shoot the distances in question to begin with. Ranges are being shuttered in this country for various reasons, many of witch are political and unsubstantiated. So it is near impossible to build new ones in the current climate. So to suggest that we build pits, target frames berms and excavated firing lines in places where we can barely shoot to begin with is absolutely preposterous. I'd suggest that if it was required that we shoot ELR in that type of environment, then the .005% participation of the shooting community would go to zero. LR target competition (Palma) is dying in this Country. The only think holding it together is the advancements of F Class. The reasons for its demise are many, but the biggest ones are the attractions of new, more interesting styles of competition shooting (like PRS). That means that strapping on a heavy leather coat and slinging into a 14 pound rifle in 90 degree heat to try to shoot black circles all day in loosing its appeal to games that offer more reward and more interest. With the range finding, video, and flash technology that currently exists on the market (and is improving all the time), the need for fixed position targets/carriers is not at all necessary. I think in fact you will see the development of portable electronic targets in the near future. Then you can shoot at what ever 'picture' you want and even have scoring rings.

 

[Milo 2.5]

I've been eating my pop corn and watching this thread from the cheap seats, but can do that no longer. I'd suggest that if it was required that we shoot ELR in that type of environment, then the .005% participation of the shooting community would go to zero.

I see you grabbed a tidbit form my post, what is your estimation of the number of guys dedicated to ELR?

 

[Dan Warner]

Difficult question to put a number on. I think one has to discern between those that would compete and those that simply want to push the boundaries of distance shooting without adding competition to their goals. Clearly, those that want to compete have the same goal as those that do not, but it is not mutually exclusive. Whatever that number may be, it is the goal of most of us involved in the format discussions to be sure that the game is as inclusive as possible. It is understood that some will never be attracted to the competitive side of the game, but it is the hope that they will not be discouraged because of its format. Hopefully, the format that is finally decided upon will attract more participation, as I think interest in ELR is growing every day.

 

[Jeffvn]

I have been fortunate enough to live in 2 parts of the country (Texas and currently Las Vegas) where I can and do shoot out to 1,000 yards and not think about it. I know how rare this is. I grew up in Ohio where there is as far as I can tell one 1,000 yard range in the entire state.

I personally see and participate in some of the various parts of the shooting sport diagram overlapping in the ELR arena. Maybe I’m wrong, but I see and largely understand that long range shooting - even with the advent and popularity of F-Class - is potentially a dying sport. I'm part of the older geezers who fed straight from the military (USMC in my case) to the civilian shooting sports. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore (at least not in Las Vegas - and also not in Houston up to 2007 when I moved to Vegas). Dan Warner and I tried our best to cover both the ELR aspects of the sport and the competition aspects of the sport when we designed our Tonopah 2 mile event. Sadly it was cancelled before it happened. I believe we’ll see some more long/ELR events this shooting season, and maybe more the years after that. Most will resemble something like our Tonopah 2 mile format. For shooting multiple targets and multiple. I think if the ELR events are inclusive and allow for various classes of participants (so folks can shoot what they have - without feeling compelled to spend a fortune in order to participate - , the sport can and will grow. People are certainly interested in shooting at longer and longer ranges.

The pre-SHOT event is only 1 event; it is NOT the forecast of all future ELR events. It is the effort of one groups to crank as many folks as they think they handle (40) through a “record” effort. I would do things a bit differently, but it is not my event to run. There will be other “record” events after January. They will be run differently. To me, a record event is not a competition - its chasing a record. they should be set up differently. just my $0.02

Jeffvn

 

[Milo 2.5]

Difficult question to put a number on. I think one has to discern between those that would compete and those that simply want to push the boundaries of distance shooting without adding competition to their goals. Clearly, those that want to compete have the same goal as those that do not, but it is not mutually exclusive. Whatever that number may be, it is the goal of most of us involved in the format discussions to be sure that the game is as inclusive as possible. It is understood that some will never be attracted to the competitive side of the game, but it is the hope that they will not be discouraged because of its format. Hopefully, the format that is finally decided upon will attract more participation, as I think interest in ELR is growing every day.

Totally agree, hope rules don't get in the way. Myself I think one of the biggest deterrents is going to be locations to shoot as you mentioned. A guy has 20K in a rifle, LRF, and spotting scope and has to drive 800-2000 miles to shoot will be one giant limitation.

 

[Dan Warner]

While locations are hard to come by, travel should not be your deterrent. If one can afford to put 20k in an ELR system, it shouldn't be that big a deal to figure out logistics to get to a match. Yes, flying sucks, and it sucks more with gear, but there are ways to get your stuff to a location 2000 miles away that are not that big a deal. Expensive, yes, but you're already this far; don't quit now. To add to what Jeff said... One of the beauties of the current 'pre-organized, pre-sanctioned' events is that formats are wide open to match directors. As long as we all begin to follow similar criteria that we define as a group, it can certainly be fun at as many levels as the match director wants to open it to. This introduces the idea of classes based on cartridge and caliber, so folks should not feel intimidated by having to shoot against the bigger gun so to speak. And those with handi-caps are not disqualified because they cannot get into a certain position.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Totally agree on the cost thing, yes, you're in deep, lol. Just as a person though, I'm not going to travel anywhere to compete if I haven't had the opportunity to practice some, even though I trust firing solutions like the next guy, because now a hit becomes luck and not skill at these distances.

 

[IntoTransonic]

ELR is not for the faint of financial heart. As Mr Warner mentioned, travel is not a overwhelming issue.

As for practice .... The competitions shouldn't be about walking your rounds in, or having a dope card from the day before. That's for other shooting events. The enjoyment of ELR is the preparation. The test is driving or flying to another location and testing yourself and equipment. Most (I am assuming here) of passionate ELR shooters are inquisitive type personalities that enjoy testing/challenging their self in differing environments.

The work/preparation is done well before showing up at a event.... I, for one, enjoy the all of the prep work. A shooter isn't going to be successful without months of work in differing environments..... Success will be defined in how much positive preparation is accomplished prior to even packing your equipment up.
Happy New Year
chris

 

[sinister]

There's an old Precision Shooting article of two fellas who successfully killed Colorado paririe dogs at 3125 (lased) yards: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...at-3-125-yards

Another article: http://www.gordysgunsmithshop.com/im..._Shooting.docx

 

[Hairy Biker]

ELR is not for the faint of financial heart. As Mr Warner mentioned, travel is not a overwhelming issue.

As for practice .... The competitions shouldn't be about walking your rounds in, or having a dope card from the day before. That's for other shooting events. The enjoyment of ELR is the preparation. The test is driving or flying to another location and testing yourself and equipment. Most (I am assuming here) of passionate ELR shooters are inquisitive type personalities that enjoy testing/challenging their self in differing environments.

The work/preparation is done well before showing up at a event.... I, for one, enjoy the all of the prep work. A shooter isn't going to be successful without months of work in differing environments..... Success will be defined in how much positive preparation is accomplished prior to even packing your equipment up.
Happy New Year
chris

Herein lies the critical issue. A world record attempt is an individualist activity. A competition is a collective group activity. If you wish to broaden the participation or mainstream the activity then some market research is required to identify your client base, determine their needs and set up a structure that allows people to grow within it.

I note Dan Warner's comment on Butts. I deliberately did not mention electronic targets in order to tease that out, same with ranges. If you do not have the infrastructure to do this yet, setting up all this inter-web ballyhoo is a waste of electrons. (And Palma/Full Bore is dying globally because long people do not exist in their thinking - but its structure offers positive and negative lessons that should not be ignored). Vegas will be a very US style Exhibition, full of light and colour, but is unlikely to prove anything.

 

[TripleBull]

Hairy, everyone has their own beliefs about how ELR, world records, etc., should be done. The ELR Central folks didn't just talk about how to do it, they are putting on an event. Anyone that feels strongly can find a venue and design their own party. I'm just glad to see Ko2M and ELR Central going for it. Assuming there is critical mass, the particulars like format, target size, etc., will get figured out eventually.

 

[IntoTransonic]

I am not sure the path of least resistance is a “record” approach. I tend to agree with many, especially the organizers of the Tonopah event” and their course of fire/event organization..... as this tends to be more along the lines of my personal enjoyment. I competed in the KO2M last year, and found it very enjoyable, a great learning experience, and well organized. Flame away if you like.
As for the team organization of AB..... great, awesome, very organized. Better get used to it, work as hard as they do, and be prepared like they are. Does it cost major dollars; you bet it does. As my farther said twenty something years ago, you want to shoot farther, faster and have adaquate equipment to be successful..... then your going to spend some dollars.
I consider a couple guys on AB friends or at least acquaintances, they have their shit together and it doesn’t bother me one bit. In fact, it motivates me to work harder and look at ELR in a different manner (positive).
ELR is definitely a team event.... you better have good spotters because they are/may be the difference in success or many misses in a row.
What will the Jan event prove ..... it is a freakin difficult sport. I know of one other Tonopah style event being planned now, and this is great for our sport.
Good luck gentleman. I hope to see many soon because the ELR sport is full of really really good people.
chris

 

[Hoffer]

It will be interesting to see how the 2019 KO2M rules with the 40lb weight limit will affect the "world record" rules down the line.

 

[IntoTransonic]

It will be interesting to see how the 2019 KO2M rules with the 40lb weight limit will affect the "world record" rules down the line.

Mitch is/has a good thing going with his lighter weight cheytacs. I, like you, will be interested to see how many people revert to chassis systems. 40lbs is a healthy haircut from what we currently/past had available to us. I will cross that road when it gets here, but I have a new competition rifle being built now that will probably push/be close to the 45 lb limit.

I do think Eduardo's weight reduction is in line with his expressed goal for starting his KO2M event.
chris

 

[THEIS]

Mitch is/has a good thing going with his lighter weight cheytacs.

Hi,

But Mitchs' LM has nothing "cheytac" related.....it is a barely modified 375 Warlord from PRO.

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[hognuts]

I am not sure the path of least resistance is a “record” approach. I tend to agree with many, especially the organizers of the Tonopah event” and their course of fire/event organization..... as this tends to be more along the lines of my personal enjoyment. I competed in the KO2M last year, and found it very enjoyable, a great learning experience, and well organized. Flame away if you like.
As for the team organization of AB..... great, awesome, very organized. Better get used to it, work as hard as they do, and be prepared like they are. Does it cost major dollars; you bet it does. As my farther said twenty something years ago, you want to shoot farther, faster and have adaquate equipment to be successful..... then your going to spend some dollars.
I consider a couple guys on AB friends or at least acquaintances, they have their shit together and it doesn’t bother me one bit. In fact, it motivates me to work harder and look at ELR in a different manner (positive).
ELR is definitely a team event.... you better have good spotters because they are/may be the difference in success or many misses in a row.
What will the Jan event prove ..... it is a freakin difficult sport. I know of one other Tonopah style event being planned now, and this is great for our sport.
Good luck gentleman. I hope to see many soon because the ELR sport is full of really really good people.
chris

I feel the the same about this subject. I got to meet a lot of the guys at one of their classes. Not going to label myself as a "fanboy" but they were all very down to earth and approachable. I think there is a lot of hating/flaming going on when unwarranted. I want to get better so I can be competitive with them. Gives me a David vs Goliath mentality.

But that being said, many of the things I've learned, and things that have made me much better at this game came from books they wrote or Ballistic programs that they designed.

If if you are going to be the best you are gonna have to beat the best....or die trying!

 

[hognuts]

Hi,

But Mitchs' LM has nothing "cheytac" related.....it is a barely modified 375 Warlord from PRO.

Sincerely,
THEIS

i think you are referring to his 375 Lethal Magnum. I do believe he has been "playing with" the 375 Cheytac as well.

 

[THEIS]

i think you are referring to his 375 Lethal Magnum. I do believe he has been "playing with" the 375 Cheytac as well.

Hi,

I understand that , just that Chris made it sound as if Mitch was doing something unique in regards to lightweight rifles....the credit for lightweight ELR rifles would actually go more to States such as Idaho that imposed rifle weight limits on the long range hunters in the early 90s.

Sincerely,
THEIS

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Who is the sanctioning board for this "World Record"? Because for anything to be a "record" you must have a sanctioning authority, whether it be a world record or organization record.

ELR Central?
ELR HQ?
Long Range Only?
Front Site?
NRA?
Guinness?
AB Weapons Division?
AB "Non Weapons Division"?

Everyone is throwing out the term "World Record" like they are riding on a Mardi Gras float and being shown perfect C cup titties.
When truthfully it is not "World Record" anything....but more along lines of Organization/Association "Record"

Sincerely,
THEIS

Hi,

So Doc from AB answered this on LRH forum and here is his reply:

"ELR Central has put up the money, time, and effort to make this happen. The community will be the ones who get to see the results and efforts of the shooters. The officials have volunteered time and travel to be there as a 3rd party. They have numerous events under their belt. Many in the industry have provided the materials to make this happen at their own expense.

This is a group effort through the community and many outlets."

 

[Lowlight]

It all has to start somewhere, and that means time, effort and money.

The fact someone can show up to FTW and throw 194 rounds of 375CT at a target, get one hit and drop the mic is the problem.

It's certainly not a "world record" in terms of Guinness as they will not participate. it has been tried, and they actually you require you to repeat your actions. That is the direction this is going.

The event in Las Vegas for SHOT is about settings standards, standing up an organization, and promoting the activity. All this is happening and just because you are seeing the omelet made in real times does not take away from the delicious taste when it's all done.

Paul Philips who is part of Team AB also helped put together the TV on the King of 2 Mile which is airing now. He is managing this event and acting as point man

You are free to do what you want and call it whatever you want, the idea is to promote credibility as much as promoting any single product or service. Credibility is what leads people to follow you, vs showing up and sending rounds until someone hits something. Credibility is derived from standards. Until you do it, and more than once really, there is no standard.

Why you're being a complete dick about it I have not the idea, maybe because you were not invited to the party early on, I have no idea, but it all starts somewhere.

As much as I butt heads with AB I am fully supporting their effort and stand with them here.

 

[coldboremiracle]

You are free to do what you want and call it whatever you want, the idea is to promote credibility as much as promoting any single product or service. Credibility is what leads people to follow you, vs showing up and sending rounds until someone hits something. Credibility is derived from standards. Until you do it, and more than once really, there is no standard.

^This, I never cared too much for ELR, but this kind of shit has completely turned myself and others off. It seems like every day there is some new guy claiming a new world record. And when you ask them about it, some of them will literally tell you "I set the standard, and met it" and call that a record and submit it to some authority like Guinness.

 

[Bradu]

It all has to start somewhere, and that means time, effort and money.

The fact someone can show up to FTW and throw 194 rounds of 375CT at a target, get one hit and drop the mic is the problem.

It's certainly not a "world record" in terms of Guinness as they will not participate. it has been tried, and they actually you require you to repeat your actions. That is the direction this is going.

The event in Las Vegas for SHOT is about settings standards, standing up an organization, and promoting the activity. All this is happening and just because you are seeing the omelet made in real times does not take away from the delicious taste when it's all done.

Paul Philips who is part of Team AB also helped put together the TV on the King of 2 Mile which is airing now. He is managing this event and acting as point man

You are free to do what you want and call it whatever you want, the idea is to promote credibility as much as promoting any single product or service. Credibility is what leads people to follow you, vs showing up and sending rounds until someone hits something. Credibility is derived from standards. Until you do it, and more than once really, there is no standard.

Why you're being a complete dick about it I have not the idea, maybe because you were not invited to the party early on, I have no idea, but it all starts somewhere.

As much as I butt heads with AB I am fully supporting their effort and stand with them here.

This post pretty much sums it up even though you will always have someone bitch about the rules and how it's not fair for them. I would love to be able to shoot in something like this but it's out of my league in cost and skill lol.

 

[Dan Warner]

This post pretty much sums it up even though you will always have someone bitch about the rules and how it's not fair for them. I would love to be able to shoot in something like this but it's out of my league in cost and skill lol.

Bradu- That is where you are wrong. The intention of most match directors and all involved in setting up the preliminary guidelines is for it to be as inclusive as possible. Run what you have, period. Classes are and being devised at different levels so one can do this without being discouraged by, or have to compete against, the guy with 'bigger and better' equipment. ELR will not ever gain interest and participation if folks like yourself are discouraged from trying it out. Are you wasting time trying to shoot a .223 at mile? Most likely, but even a 6.5x47 or Creedmoor can be efficient at a mile or more, so it is certainly worth a try at that level. Come shoot with us!

 

[Tahoe]

I think this would have more credibility if it wasn't so exclusive,maybe the best way to make it seem like everyone has a voice is to stream the meeting live so some friends in other countries and states can actually have a voice.

 

[Lowlight]

ELR Meeting during Shot Show

Kelly McMillan has reserved a room that could be made available if you guys would like to meet up for an hour to discuss ELR.

Please let me know who is interested in meeting up.

Date: Tuesday, January 23rd
Location: Delfino 4101A
Time: 10:30 - 11:30 am

Sign out front to read : Extreme Long Range

 

[schmi015]

There's an old Precision Shooting article of two fellas who successfully killed Colorado paririe dogs at 3125 (lased) yards: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...at-3-125-yards

Sorry but I think Gordy was telling a tall tale, there is an old thread about this on another forum. https://www.longrangehunting.com/th...cy-dropping-out-of-supersonic-velocity.31623/

 

[Jeffvn]

I had to work, so I could not attend the ELR meeting. Anything of interest come out of that meeting.

Jeffvn