ELR match choice?

[Taylorbok]

I'm hoping to attend an ELR match stateside this coming March or April. I am fairly rookie when it comes to matches but have shot Ko2M Canada twice now. Location doesn't really matter since I'll likely be flying anyways. Curious what match you guys suggest is the best one to attend? Like if you had to choose one that time of year to not miss.

I'd prefer to shoot the .375 but I think that Pro-Am at Greystone would be sweet if I could find a Pro to team up with and could bring the 338 instead.

 

[Taylorbok]

I could actually drive to the Best of the West match in Oregon. Not a short drive. But it would allow me to bring light and heavy gun and shoot 2 days.

 

[Taylorbok]

I've looked at the Safety First Schedule and notes and I've pretty much narrowed it down to 2 options, any input would be appreciated.

Spearpoint Heavy 2Mile+ -March 23
Best of the West Heavy-March 30-31

 

[NightStash]

I've looked at the Safety First Schedule and notes and I've pretty much narrowed it down to 2 options, any input would be appreciated.

Spearpoint Heavy 2Mile+ -March 23
Best of the West Heavy-March 30-31

Hope to see you at the SpearPoint opener with some A-Tips!

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Early in the year, Unholy Alliance is a good beginners match in terms of distances and people. Has some challenging winds that can be fun and you can shoot both classes. Best of the west is a good choice though. Good match director, more targets then UA and VASTLY more appropriate light gun distances than SPR.

-Alex

 

[Taylorbok]

Early in the year, Unholy Alliance is a good beginners match in terms of distances and people. Has some challenging winds that can be fun and you can shoot both classes. Best of the west is a good choice though. Good match director, more targets then UA and VASTLY more appropriate light gun distances than SPR.

-Alex

Black Bear definitely looks like it has the nicest views of the 3 but I was hoping to get out to some farther distances and see what I can learn.
I've shot lots in the 1500-2200 range (Nightforce and KRG matches) but not a ton past that.

 

[timintx]

If you go to best of the west contact Kasey Jones or Stanley Cutsforth, they can hook you up . Kansas night stash or Shane would be a good team to get with Or I can bring the 338 and cheytac and you are welcome to use mine . Castle is by me so you are still welcome to use my guns , there are other matches as well starting up so if you need some info on more matches look up Brian wink or Alex Cordsman .

Timintx

 

[Taylorbok]

@timintx that is a very generous offer. Half the fun is getting the rifle ready/ tuning a load but flying would be a PITA to bring 2 rifles and ammo so depending what pans out I'd possibly take you up on borrowing the light gun.

I am on the Safety First ELR facebook page so I'm always watching there.

The Battle at the Lazy J might be an option for me to drive to later in the summer.

 

[SPR45]

Don't let the "vastly inappropriate distances" dissuade you from shooting at Spearpoint. I'm the MD there and I think we have a pretty solid Light gun program as evidenced by the stats.

King of 1 Mile Season ranking, 8 out of the top 10 have shot here.
King of 1 mile Finale, 7 out of the top 10 have shot here.
Lazy J 2023 8 out of the top 10 have shot here.
Raton Thunder 2023, 2 out of the top 5 have shot here.
Castle match 2023, 6 out of the top 10 have shot here.

If I'm not mistaken, every one of these matches was won by a shooter that has shot some at Spearpoint.
Come on out and join in!

 

[ShootnFool8]

For first timers at Spear Point, only a one day shoot. Also, does one have to be invited, or sign up and go. Not trying to jack the post. Just been looking myself.

 

[SPR45]

For first timers at Spear Point, only a one day shoot. Also, does one have to be invited, or sign up and go. Not trying to jack the post. Just been looking myself.

Light Class shoots on Sunday on the ELR weekends, Heavy shoots on Saturday. Sign up through Practiscore. The March match usually sells out, but the rest generally have some open slots. The schedule is posted at the top of the Spearpoint Ranch FB page, one match a month March through September.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Don't let the "vastly inappropriate distances" dissuade you from shooting at Spearpoint. I'm the MD there and I think we have a pretty solid Light gun program as evidenced by the stats.

King of 1 Mile Season ranking, 8 out of the top 10 have shot here.
King of 1 mile Finale, 7 out of the top 10 have shot here.
Lazy J 2023 8 out of the top 10 have shot here.
Raton Thunder 2023, 2 out of the top 5 have shot here.
Castle match 2023, 6 out of the top 10 have shot here.

If I'm not mistaken, every one of these matches was won by a shooter that has shot some at Spearpoint.
Come on out and join in!

Big matches are won by people that shoot a lot. Most of the best shooters have shot essentially everywhere at least once.

BotW gets you a broad swath of ranges for both classes. Heavy ran 8 targets between 1941 and 3564 and light ran 8 between 844 and 2507 this year. That is a pretty solid match.

Black Bear is very complex wind and crazy angles. Pretty much nothing else like it. We don't have a huge amount of flexibility when it comes to moving targets around given the woods but we do what we can to keep it interesting.

Either or those is going to be full of welcoming people that will help out new shooters in any way they can.

-Alex

 

[ShootnFool8]

So what is considered light, and heavy.

 

[NightStash]

Big matches are won by people that shoot a lot. Most of the best shooters have shot essentially everywhere at least once.

BotW gets you a broad swath of ranges for both classes. Heavy ran 8 targets between 1941 and 3564 and light ran 8 between 844 and 2507 this year. That is a pretty solid match.

Black Bear is very complex wind and crazy angles. Pretty much nothing else like it. We don't have a huge amount of flexibility when it comes to moving targets around given the woods but we do what we can to keep it interesting.

Either or those is going to be full of welcoming people that will help out new shooters in any way they can.

-Alex

Is 800-1200 yards really ELR appropriate distance though? Thats done consistently with a 6mm from modified positions in PRS style matches.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Is 800-1200 yards really ELR appropriate distance though? Thats done consistently with a 6mm from modified positions in PRS style matches.

For light gun matches that are geared towards experience shooters, having the first target out past 1200 is usually what we do. For matches geared towards new shooters, then having a little overlap into familiar ground makes for a more approachable match. Even with experienced guys, the first round hit rate at 800 is only around 50% and by the 5th shot it is up to 75%. When you get out to 1500 those drop to around 25% and 50%. By the time you get to 2100 you are at 12% and 25%. The realities of how far out most people are capable of shooting with consistency is harsher than most people think. Hitting targets is fun to do and to watch.

For the 2900 target at SPR, the total hit rate is around 4% and that is for guys that shoot the same target every month in competition and often practice on it as well. The four people that have gotten out to it with consistency have never done it twice.

I like to have one gimme target and one aspirational target per match. I think 2 miles is still the aspirational range for heavy and I'd say 2500ish is probably about right for light gun now.

So what is considered light, and heavy.

light is 338 caliber or less and 26 pounds or less. Heavy is any caliber (but you better ask about anything over 50 cal before you show up) and usually under 50 pounds. Ko2M has a soft cap of 40 pounds with (for the 2024 season and beyond) a 1000 point handicap per pound over. More or less means that a 5 pound over gun puts you in a one hit deficit.

-Alex

 

[ShootnFool8]

For light gun matches that are geared towards experience shooters, having the first target out past 1200 is usually what we do. For matches geared towards new shooters, then having a little overlap into familiar ground makes for a more approachable match. Even with experienced guys, the first round hit rate at 800 is only around 50% and by the 5th shot it is up to 75%. When you get out to 1500 those drop to around 25% and 50%. By the time you get to 2100 you are at 12% and 25%. The realities of how far out most people are capable of shooting with consistency is harsher than most people think. Hitting targets is fun to do and to watch.

For the 2900 target at SPR, the total hit rate is around 4% and that is for guys that shoot the same target every month in competition and often practice on it as well. The four people that have gotten out to it with consistency have never done it twice.

I like to have one gimme target and one aspirational target per match. I think 2 miles is still the aspirational range for heavy and I'd say 2500ish is probably about right for light gun now.

light is 338 caliber or less and 26 pounds or less. Heavy is any caliber (but you better ask about anything over 50 cal before you show up) and usually under 50 pounds. Ko2M has a soft cap of 40 pounds with (for the 2024 season and beyond) a 1000 point handicap per pound over. More or less means that a 5 pound over gun puts you in a one hit deficit.

-Alex

Thank you, for that info.

 

[SPR45]

For light gun matches that are geared towards experience shooters, having the first target out past 1200 is usually what we do. For matches geared towards new shooters, then having a little overlap into familiar ground makes for a more approachable match. Even with experienced guys, the first round hit rate at 800 is only around 50% and by the 5th shot it is up to 75%. When you get out to 1500 those drop to around 25% and 50%. By the time you get to 2100 you are at 12% and 25%. The realities of how far out most people are capable of shooting with consistency is harsher than most people think. Hitting targets is fun to do and to watch.

For the 2900 target at SPR, the total hit rate is around 4% and that is for guys that shoot the same target every month in competition and often practice on it as well. The four people that have gotten out to it with consistency have never done it twice.

I like to have one gimme target and one aspirational target per match. I think 2 miles is still the aspirational range for heavy and I'd say 2500ish is probably about right for light gun now.

light is 338 caliber or less and 26 pounds or less. Heavy is any caliber (but you better ask about anything over 50 cal before you show up) and usually under 50 pounds. Ko2M has a soft cap of 40 pounds with (for the 2024 season and beyond) a 1000 point handicap per pound over. More or less means that a 5 pound over gun puts you in a one hit deficit.

-Alex

"often practice on it as well" is a misconception. No one that shoots here in the ELR matches has practiced on it in over two years, maybe three. It is not that it isn't allowed, it is just too far of a drive for most people to make if they are going to be coming again in a few weeks for a match.

The Finale hit % was more like 11% for the Light gunners. Not great but it is a 1.6 moa target at 2900 yds. The first year, 2017, we had three impacts total for the whole season, Light and Heavy. This year we had around 36 impacts just at the Finale. It shows how far ELR as a whole has progressed through competition at all the venues.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

"often practice on it as well" is a misconception. No one that shoots here in the ELR matches has practiced on it in over two years, maybe three. It is not that it isn't allowed, it is just too far of a drive for most people to make if they are going to be coming again in a few weeks for a match.

The Finale hit % was more like 11% for the Light gunners. Not great but it is a 1.6 moa target at 2900 yds. The first year, 2017, we had three impacts total for the whole season, Light and Heavy. This year we had around 36 impacts just at the Finale. It shows how far ELR as a whole has progressed through competition at all the venues.

I was going by the season hit rate. Any one match and the hit rates are at the mercy of conditions. Across several matches gives you a more honest answer.

-Alex

 

[SPR45]

I was going by the season hit rate. Any one match and the hit rates are at the mercy of conditions. Across several matches gives you a more honest answer.

-Alex

If you want to be honest, 32 impacts out of 408 attempts, or 8% for the 2023 season in Light gun. Not that much to argue about.

However, why are you dogging on the Spearpoint shooters by lying about them practicing here between matches? No shooter that has shot an ELR match at Spearpoint has shot any on the ELR range, outside of matches, since 2020. Only 7 Spearpoint match shooters have shot on the course from the time we started in 2017 up until 2020. Like I said earlier, and you ignored it because it doesn't fit your narrative, it is not that I don't allow it, it is because we are so far away for someone to make the drive when they will be back again in a week or two for a match.

As far as the targets being too far, it's in the name. Extended Long Range or Extreme Long Range whichever you want to call it. Not Almost Extreme Long Range. There are several venues that run shorter ranges and that's great, but there should be a few that let shooters stretch things out. They don't all have to be the same.

Taylorbok, I didn't mean to hijack your thread, I just grew a little tired of the misinformation being put forth. Spearpoint has a great group of shooters that are happy to help out in any way they can. We have a Rookie program here that you can shoot your .375 CT in that is very well supported and sponsored by the shooters and manufacturers in the sport. You and any others are more than welcome to join in.

 

[GAS338]

Noone practices on SP’s range Alex, you know that. I don’t understand your constant negative comments on SP matches, you’ve never been to the match as well. Those matches are the best run in the sport at this time And I’ve shot all of them minus B Bear. It’s constantly growing, cant say the same for KO2M. I looked at it this year, 50% of the shooters were either non ranked in the KO2M system or over 100, there were less than 70 total shooters this year. I’ve watched it steadily decline in numbers and missing most of the top shooters in the country now days. I thought it was great that a new shooter won it though and seems like a great guy to boot!

Talking down about SP does nothing to promote yours.

To the OP, come to SP, you’ll have a great time hanging out with everyone and shooting. Everyone there is willing to help in any way needed. You can shoot on the 1400 yard range the day before. Sometimes there are a couple plates farther on that range as well. BOTW would be good as well and Stan and Kasey are great guys that will help any way they can! Reach out to guys and ask for help or info, don’t get it here. Very few of the shooters that actually attend matches are here to see it.

 

[HellWolf]

"War at Butte Creek" previously "Sand Creek" will be June 15 and 16 in NW Kansas 3 hours east of Denver, it will be on the Safety First calendar as soon as its updated next. I'll be running out to at least 2 miles and a practicescore link will be posted. I was a little behind on getting it on the calendar because we are changing venues for 2024 due to land changing hands .
Any of the matches you're looking at will have a huge number of people who are more than willing to help out. Spearpoint, BoTW, Conquer the Castle, KO1M, Battle at the Lazy J, Raton Thunder, Spring Canyon, KO2M, are all exceptional matches . Wherever you choose won't disappoint.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

4% was off the cuff but I was close. It is 31 hits in 594 shots with light guns for the season so 5%. That includes the rookie light shooters since I don't actually treat them differently in my records.

If people aren't actively practicing between matches it is probably a good idea to just forbid it openly. It is one of the things people bitch about that you can evidently solve with zero consequences.

If that course of fire was a deliberate choice I think your position would hold up better. Having the same course of fire for heavy as for light and rookie seems more like you don't feel like moving targets and cameras around more than anything. Again, this is the bitching I hear. Shooters seem far more willing to bitch to match directors about someone else's match then they are to give feedback directly to the match director that could actually address it...

-Alex

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Noone practices on SP’s range Alex, you know that.

I really don't. I only hear frequent complaints about an unleveled playing field. As I said above, if nobody is practicing there anyway then the easy fix to those complaints is to make practicing on those targets forbidden.

I looked at it this year, 50% of the shooters were either non ranked in the KO2M system or over 100, there were less than 70 total shooters this year.

I see at a glance 6 people that were unranked. Good number of those were the international guys. Hilariously the winner and 3rd place were also unranked shooters but Ron at least has shot a pile of ELR matches. This was actually the first year we haven't gone up in participation. Spear point finally was down about the same percentage fwiw.

Long way to come for potentially 14 shots. Next year we are running a side match on top of the preliminaries so it will be 44 to 59 shots for the weekend in two matches. Tried to get that going this year but it didn't pan out and that got us going on registration far latter than we would have preferred.

-Alex

 

[SPR45]

4% was off the cuff but I was close. It is 31 hits in 594 shots with light guns for the season so 5%. That includes the rookie light shooters since I don't actually treat them differently in my records.

If people aren't actively practicing between matches it is probably a good idea to just forbid it openly. It is one of the things people bitch about that you can evidently solve with zero consequences.

If that course of fire was a deliberate choice I think your position would hold up better. Having the same course of fire for heavy as for light and rookie seems more like you don't feel like moving targets and cameras around more than anything. Again, this is the bitching I hear. Shooters seem far more willing to bitch to match directors about someone else's match then they are to give feedback directly to the match director that could actually address it...

-Alex

That course of fire is very deliberate for several reasons. Fire safety is one. Having a well maintained, clean impact area around the targets is crucial. However, if you go in and mow the area once in the middle of the summer to put your target up you end up with a huge mat of dry grass around the target that you can't see impacts in and it's a great place for a fire to start from the bullet fragments. That has happened here before. So, to lessen the chance of that, I mow the areas regularly throughout the season.
I look at the sport as what does it take to make impacts at certain distances, with certain gear instead of what do I have to change with the targets for people to make impacts. The shooters that come here work together to figure solutions out. It seems to be working pretty well as evidenced by their successes at other venues and in your own rankings.

I'd be willing to prohibit practicing on the range as long as all other venues do so also.

I agree with the feedback comment. I hear a lot about what goes on at your matches, other matches not so much. They all seem to run very well.

 

[SPR45]

I really don't. I only hear frequent complaints about an unleveled playing field. As I said above, if nobody is practicing there anyway then the easy fix to those complaints is to make practicing on those targets forbidden.



I see at a glance 6 people that were unranked. Good number of those were the international guys. Hilariously the winner and 3rd place were also unranked shooters but Ron at least has shot a pile of ELR matches. This was actually the first year we haven't gone up in participation. Spear point finally was down about the same percentage fwiw.

Long way to come for potentially 14 shots. Next year we are running a side match on top of the preliminaries so it will be 44 to 59 shots for the weekend in two matches. Tried to get that going this year but it didn't pan out and that got us going on registration far latter than we would have preferred.

-Alex

Spearpoint Finale had 7 more shooters than the previous year, or an increase of 9%. We also had 99 more match entries for the season than the previous year.

 

[cameljockey230]

Come shoot a URSA match in Northern California. You can shoot Oregon first then drive south another 5-6 hours and shoot with us.
You don't even need a gun the match director will loan you anything from 338 Norma Ackley improved to 50 BMG Ackley Improved and you can shoot all day long.
We don't shoot at any close targets we start at 2147 yards and we shoot the same size gong at all distances.
You can also see how a tuner works and make up your own mind from actual shooting not typing.

 

[DocRDS]

Are all these matches "Out west" somewhere? Anything in the Center of the country?

 

[NightStash]

Are all these matches "Out west" somewhere? Anything in the Center of the country?

Can't get much more centered than SpearPoint Ranch.

 

[Taylorbok]

If anyone else cares there is a match April 13-14 in Burley ID, KPR Snake River ELR I think this will be the match I try and go to. I messaged the MD on Facebook and here is what he said.

"Yessir we will release more on it in the next couple weeks. It will be part of the northwest elr roundup. 2 Oregon matches, mine, nightforce and krg matches in Wyoming and a couple more. Mine will be ko2m scoring, 5 shots per target, 6-8 targets so 40-50 rounds per class. Hunter[run what you brung] class 500-1800 yards. Elr light [338 cal and 26 lb limit] 1000-2500 yardsElr heavy no limits, 1800-3600 yards"

"Yes we will open it on practicescore in January. Working on all the series stuff right now"

 

[longrangelefty 94]

So what is considered light, and heavy.

light is anything .338 and below with a 26lb weight limit, heavy is anything larger than .338 up to 50bmg, with a 50lb weight limit (aside from 1- 40lb weight limit match)