ELR - Not for everyone I guess

[MACHTECH]

I love ELR shooting and everything associated with it. It is my main hobby after family time and work. It's not for everyone though. Some shooters are into PRS, F-class or just shooting groups at 100 yards. When someone posts a pic of a little tiny group in the .1's or .2's does anyone ask.... yeah, but how many groups did it take you to get that one group? If you do really well in a PRS or F-class match, does everyone jump on your post and ask.... yeah, but how matches did you have to shoot to finally win one? IMO, it doesn't matter. It's what you love doing and that one group or match is an accomplishment that was worked hard for. So next time you hear about a guy that just made a 7000 yard shot, who cares that it took 69 shots to do it. The guy did it! No one else in the world has done it. I bet he had a blast letting go of the other 68 shots before that!

Congrats Paul!

 

[Hawkeyemm]

I love ELR shooting and everything associated with it. It is my main hobby after family time and work. It's not for everyone though. Some shooters are into PRS, F-class or just shooting groups at 100 yards. When someone posts a pic of a little tiny group in the .1's or .2's does anyone ask.... yeah, but how many groups did it take you to get that one group? If you do really well in a PRS or F-class match, does everyone jump on your post and ask.... yeah, but how matches did you have to shoot to finally win one? IMO, it doesn't matter. It's what you love doing and that one group or match is an accomplishment that was worked hard for. So next time you hear about a guy that just made a 7000 yard shot, who cares that it took 69 shots to do it. The guy did it! No one else in the world has done it. I bet he had a blast letting go of the other 68 shots before that!

Congrats Paul!

I agree, for the most part. In the case of the 7000 yard shot, in the article it was readily admitted that it took 69 shots or whatever. Which lets me know, considering who the shooters were, I could shoot a pallet of ammo and never score a hit.
I think, perhaps, the reason some people feel the need to question or belittle someone else’s accomplishments online is because we all know people personally who consciously leave out the finer points of an event in order to impress other people. Which is kind of annoying imo. And then we let that bias slip into our judgement of posts we see online. (Which does not explain our incessant need to talk shit online. That’s another thing all together) Another aspect, newer people to an activity, shooting or whatever, can get a distorted view of what “good” is, or what should be expected. Just my thoughts.

 

[pucker]

Exactly. Nobody asks how many kicks it took to make a 64yd field goal, how many left turns Richard Petty made, etc.

The first question that should follow those "sure, but how many shots did it take?", is "how many times have YOU done it?"

 

[isofahunter]

Most on the internet never miss, shoots .25 MOA and retired from SEAL Team 6.

I am out of the loop on what Paul did or how he did it but 7k is a long poke. Well done.

 

[Geno C.]

The way I see it from observing people’s’ reaction to these shots; it’s the claim of a record that gets the attention. It’s not the fact that they hit an moa target at about 4 miles

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

Well, lol.....let us dive deep into these sort of issues along with the how's and whys of such......

First, please tell me you see the irony when abc group of people complain about no standards, no regulations, people just slinging rounds in attempt to hit once, yada yada yada so much that they form an association to Regulate and Control ELR (hahaha) and then do exactly what they have complained about for 8 years or such.

Second, IT IS most definitely all the "World Record" shit that has been spouted ever since Dean M made the first 2700yd shoot with the original 408CT. And that has just continued and continued to the point it is PURE marketing nonsense. There are absolutely 0 WORLD RECORDS in regards to ELR...at best there is a particular organization's record.

Third, the organizations themselves, lol.....IMO each and every one of them have been setup with the utmost bias to what that particular group of people wanted to do for themselves and THEIR businesses....not for the pure advancement of ELR within itself. Each of them have their own reasonings of what drives their boat and look closely it is not hard to find the direct connection of marketing to their perspective business ventures. When ELR by its' very nature was/is built upon people that desire to push the envelope, not abide by abc weight class, xyz case volume class, no this, no that, etc etc allowed to be used.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Steel head]

Calling it a record is kinda a stretch in my opinion. Great data gathering opportunity though.

 

[want2learn]

Allow me to preface that i'm still struggling to shoot well and accommodate wind and ballistics at the 300-900 yard ranges.

That said, what would one advocate as requisites to establish an appropriate ELR record challenge?

 

[rustyinbend]

It took me over a year of trying to make a 1-mile hit ... and I gained experience and insight with every miss.
Like Thomas Edison said after 1,000 failed attempts before successfully inventing the incandescent light bulb ...
"I never failed. I just discovered 1,000 ways to 'not' make a light bulb."

 

[Hawkeyemm]

Great data gathering opportunity though.

I’m NOT being a smart ass here but, I’ve read that statement multiple times around here with regard to the story. Can anyone tell me what data was actually gathered? For a fact.

 

[Steel head]

I’m NOT being a smart ass here but, I’ve read that statement multiple times around here with regard to the story. Can anyone tell me what data was actually gathered? For a fact.

Dope, every good shot gives you information.
Very very few people have dope on a 7000+ shot.

 

[TxWelder35]

I’m NOT being a smart ass here but, I’ve read that statement multiple times around here with regard to the story. Can anyone tell me what data was actually gathered? For a fact.

Preface- I don’t know shit about ELR, my opinion is worth next to nothing.

I would think the main data acquired is a great lesson in wind reading. Can’t even imagine trying to make a wind call at 7000

 

[theLBC]

hahaha, true that.
although it only took one try to shoot a good group, truth is i am almost afraid to shoot another and prove it was a fluke.

 

[Hawkeyemm]

Dope, every good shot gives you information.
Very very few people have dope on a 7000+ shot.

But from the impression I got from the article, the spotters were a LONG way away. And the target was only so big. So I’m not sure how valuable “eh, I think that landed about 20 feet left and was short like....maybe....18 feet?” Especially without MANY, MANY precise wind measurements between the shooter and target. Maybe they had all this and I missed it.

 

[Steel head]

But from the impression I got from the article, the spotters were a LONG way away. And the target was only so big. So I’m not sure how valuable “eh, I think that landed about 20 feet left and was short like....maybe....18 feet?” Especially without MANY, MANY precise wind measurements between the shooter and target. Maybe they had all this and I missed it.

Lol
The spotters probably had reticles in spotting scope to give precise calls and getting wind data at shooter and a forward position is a big help.
Plus They are dealing with winds high up in the air that are tricky(almost impossible for most) to read but there are correction factors to get an idea depending on terrain.
I have found correction factors really helped me be more consistent.
I mostly shoot across steep valleys with the bullet being effectively 1000+ feet higher in the air than a similar shot on flat land.

I personally find ELR extremely fun and challenging.
I’m just doing it with a small magnum.

 

[Hawkeyemm]

@Steel head
Thanks. Obviously I don’t have any experience shooting at those distances. Can you give me an example of a “correction factor”? I’m having trouble getting my mind around the idea of getting usable data when after correcting for unknown variables that are in constant flux and may vary from shot to shot by orders of magnitude.

 

[Geno C.]

Lol
The spotters probably had reticles in spotting scope to give precise calls and getting wind data at shooter and a forward position is a big help.
Plus They are dealing with winds high up in the air that are tricky(almost impossible for most) to read but there are correction factors to get an idea depending on terrain.
I have found correction factors really helped me be more consistent.
I mostly shoot across steep valleys with the bullet being effectively 1000+ feet higher in the air than a similar shot on flat land.

I personally find ELR extremely fun and challenging.
I’m just doing it with a small magnum.

Reticle in a forward spotter isn’t going to measure the same as one at the firing line. Without real wind data, measured, they’re simply guessing at the wind or a prevailing wind even. That data is not very solid. If it was solid, they would be able to hit it more often

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

The data collected is subjective in itself.

Without a Windcube Lidar system the wind calls they now have in their books for that distance and environmental conditions is flawed because there is no way for them to know the wind values in that many micro environments. (Hence why the shot is not repeated on consistent basis)

Without a Cinetheodolite system there is no way to know which of the x number of projectiles were stable, where they became unstable, was that distance consistent, etc etc. (Hence why the shot is not repeated on a consistent basis)

I love that they do what they did but call it for what it is.....Marketing or Fun? You decide.......Nothing more, nothing less.
Seems like FUN has been removed from most things ELR and more commercially driven.

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Baron23]

I think, perhaps, the reason some people feel the need to question or belittle someone else’s accomplishments online is because we all know people personally who consciously leave out the finer points of an event in order to impress other people.

Really? I rather think its people of weak character making themselves feel superior by putting someone else down.

 

[Hawkeyemm]

Hi,

The data collected is subjective in itself.

Without a Windcube Lidar system the wind calls they now have in their books for that distance and environmental conditions is flawed because there is no way for them to know the wind values in that many micro environments. (Hence why the shot is not repeated on consistent basis)

Without a Cinetheodolite system there is no way to know which of the x number of projectiles were stable, where they became unstable, was that distance consistent, etc etc. (Hence why the shot is not repeated on a consistent basis)

I love that they do what they did but call it for what it is.....Marketing or Fun? You decide.......Nothing more, nothing less.
Seems like FUN has been removed from most things ELR and more commercially driven.

Sincerely,
Theis

This is what I was curious about. I didn’t know if there was some sort of statistical black magic which could glean something useful without accurate wind measurements or not.

 

[Hawkeyemm]

Really? I rather think its people of weak character making themselves feel superior by putting someone else down.

Lol, well, I was trying to be generous! And you’ll notice I said “some people”. But I’m afraid your assessment is probably right more often than mine.

 

[MACHTECH]

THEIS, I agree with most of your points and they are the reason I don't compete in ELR matches. I guess that I should rephrase the statement in my op that I love everything associated with ELR. I like to keep it fun and relaxing when we do get to go out west to Kansas. We consider our trips a "reset button". Anything I've ever competed in as an adult seems to quickly become not so fun anymore because of the bickering.

I just think if you're the only guy in the world that has made that shot, you should be able to call it what ever you want.

 

[Steel head]

Reticle in a forward spotter isn’t going to measure the same as one at the firing line. Without real wind data, measured, they’re simply guessing at the wind or a prevailing wind even. That data is not very solid. If it was solid, they would be able to hit it more often

Well I’m guessing this was a first try so they certainly got something to use in the future.
We’ll see if they repeat this distance with much less tries for a hit.

Angularity from two points at various distances should be the same if they’re measured the same I would think.
Maybe @MACHTECH can comment on that as I think he’s done forward observation.

I would think you can calibrate with both shooter and spotting calling their observed measurement on the target to get a good call

 

[Steel head]

@Steel head
Thanks. Obviously I don’t have any experience shooting at those distances. Can you give me an example of a “correction factor”? I’m having trouble getting my mind around the idea of getting usable data when after correcting for unknown variables that are in constant flux and may vary from shot to shot by orders of magnitude.

They explain it well on the podcast frank did with AB/Berger
Episode 4 or 5 I think

 

[sinister]

Usually to set a world record in anything it must be witnessed by an impartial outside adjudicator. The Guinness Book of World Records has their criteria:

What is a Guinness World Records title?
Each record title must fulfill all of the following criteria. They must be:

• Measurable – Can it be measured objectively? What is the unit of measurement? We do not accept applications based on subjective variables. For example - beauty, kindness, loyalty.
• Breakable – Can the record be broken? Our record titles must be open to being challenged.
• Standardisable - Can the record be repeated by someone else? Is it possible to create a set of parameters and conditions that all challengers can follow?
• Verifiable - Can the claim be proven? Will there be accurate evidence available to prove it occurred?
• Based on one variable - Is the record based on one superlative and measured in one unit of measurement?
• The best in the world - Has anyone else done better? If your record suggestion is new then Guinness World Records will set a challenging minimum requirement for you to beat.

General reasons applications are rejected

• Insufficient description: the details are insufficient for an assessment.
• Criteria not met: for example the record is not standardisable (see What Makes a Guinness World Records title for full criteria).
• No standard format: for example the suggestion is for most tricks in 7 minutes, which is not a time frame we monitor. Guinness World Records monitors records in 1 minute, 3 minutes or 1 hour. Please check our guide to record formats.
• Research or historic records: they are sourced from expert consultants and institutions and we do not invite proactive applications for these records, you can use the feedback form to alert us about a new record.
• Too specialised: records are there to be broken and create international competition, if your suggestion is too specific it might not be accepted.
• Inappropriate/offensive: Guinness World Records will not process inappropriate or offensive applications.
• Discontinued titles: retired record titles will not appear in the list of records we monitor and will not be accepted if suggested as new titles.

If you want to set an aviation or aeronautical record you need to contact the Federation Aeronautique Internationale and have impartial on-sight judges and witnesses.

 

[MACHTECH]

Well I’m guessing this was a first try so they certainly got something to use in the future.
We’ll see if they repeat this distance with much less tries for a hit.

Angularity from two points at various distances should be the same if they’re measured the same I would think.
Maybe @MACHTECH can comment on that as I think he’s done forward observation.

I would think you can calibrate with both shooter and spotting calling their observed measurement on the target to get a good call

On our first trial run at 3 miles, we found out that a forward spotter is essential. Even with the very best in spotting glass, depth perception is the issue. This last outing I was posted approx. 2000 yards to the left side of the target (with a rock bluff between me and the shooting position). I didn't even need glass to see splash and make the appropriate depth calls back to the shooter.

 

[Geno C.]

Well I’m guessing this was a first try so they certainly got something to use in the future.
We’ll see if they repeat this distance with much less tries for a hit.

Angularity from two points at various distances should be the same if they’re measured the same I would think.
Maybe @MACHTECH can comment on that as I think he’s done forward observation.

I would think you can calibrate with both shooter and spotting calling their observed measurement on the target to get a good call

Forward observer sees a miss of 10” and he’s 1000 yards away. He sees and calls 1moa miss. What’s 1 moa at 7100

calibration would be key

 

[Geno C.]

THEIS, I agree with most of your points and they are the reason I don't compete in ELR matches. I guess that I should rephrase the statement in my op that I love everything associated with ELR. I like to keep it fun and relaxing when we do get to go out west to Kansas. We consider our trips a "reset button". Anything I've ever competed in as an adult seems to quickly become not so fun anymore because of the bickering.

I just think if you're the only guy in the world that has made that shot, you should be able to call it what ever you want.

While the bickering does try and suck the fun out of it, maybe you just need to shoot with the right shooters no matter how good or bad the group k shoot with does, I have never heard any of them say it wasn’t fun Spearpoint KS finale is Labor Day weekend out there...

 

[Steel head]

Forward observer sees a miss of 10” and he’s 1000 yards away. He sees and calls 1moa miss. What’s 1 moa at 7100

calibration would be key

1 moa at 7100 is towed in on a trailer.

 

[Snuby642]

71 inches
Call it 6 ft
1/4 moa 18 inches ?

Shot math would have been easier at 7200?

 

[Geno C.]

71 inches
Call it 6 ft
1/4 moa 18 inches ?

Shot math would have been easier at 7200?

Actually over 75” but that’s just splitting hairs at that point

 

[Snuby642]

I keep forgetting about the .047
Lol

 

[Snuby642]

That would have left me 200 yards short.

Danm.

 

[CNC-Dude]

I've seen many ELR shooters mention that even at distances of 3000 to 4000 yards, the Coriolis effect is already coming into play by some amount. So I can imagine at 7000 yards it can be a big deal.

 

[Geno C.]

It’s 1.3moa if I shoot directly south from 44.1north lat to 6000 yards. It’s easily calculated. When hitting way out there, it’s all about the wind

 

[Snuby642]

If you shot west to east you would get a gain?

 

[Hawkeyemm]

They explain it well on the podcast frank did with AB/Berger
Episode 4 or 5 I think

Thank you steel head. I will check it out.

 

[Hawkeyemm]

I've seen many ELR shooters mention that even at distances of 3000 to 4000 yards, the Coriolis effect is already coming into play by some amount. So I can imagine at 7000 yards it can be a big deal.

Holy shit! A legitimate excuse to name drop the coriolis effect and I missed it! Damn!

 

[TripleBull]

Seems like FUN has been removed from most things ELR and more commercially driven.

I'm probably hogging more than my share, so blame me.

I'm not a real-world ELR shooter, just a self-taught hack that loves it. Much has been learned, particularly how difficult wind can be when the Evil Wind Bitch of Wyoming is hating on you. And that bitch seems to really hate me with regularity.

WRT Machtech's discussion, I don't really hear the haters when they rag on someone like Paul and his gang stretching their limits. My son and I keep stretching our longest shots, but we also come back down to shorter range to try to refine our DOPE, broaden the range of conditions, etc. , and put that evil bitch into chains, where she belongs.

 

[Cheyenne Bodie]

There's a big difference between dumb luck and persistence, and a viable learned skill. The clarification is usually relevant, especially on the internet.

 

[GIXXER2000]

In the world of ELR shooting we are always looking to go longer and see what is the limit. Now it's 7K and can that be broken yes and it should be. We as ELR shooter live for the thrill of the impact the same as guys who hunt. I have made hits out to 3490 and that is a long shot my 400 lazer takes about 9 seconds to travel that far but seems like a hour.
I like to think if you make a shot you need to be able to repeat it just so you know its accuracy not blind luck. There are so many thing that go into making a shot anywhere close to just 3k. The time and tools and experience to make these shots take time to acquire but can be done. I look forward to going beyond 4k,5k and6k maybe. Probably will need a bigger round then 375ct for 5k+ but that is the thrill.

 

[jasent]

If any of these nay sayers ever got behind an ELR rifle and shot at an ELR target and eventually got a hit they would be smiling from ear to ear. 99% of them just think it pure luck a bullet hits something down there and most think the transonic transition is a block wall

 

[lash]

I’m a total novice at ELR with limited locations to pursue it in Florida. But just hitting a mile plus at almost sea level with a simple .338 LM most definitely gives one a thrill. Shooting three in a row in a “group” of less than 3/4 moa at those ranges is something you do want to talk about though. I’ve found that those without long range or ELR experience often have no clear understanding of it and cannot relate it to a real accomplishment. I expect they blow it off as tall tales.

Personally, I do it because it makes me smile when my careful load prep and practice comes together. I know what it took and how it feels for me and could care less what anyone or if anyone else thinks about it.

 

[RTH1800]

That shot was as meaningless to me as if a bird had flown over the target and shit on it.

 

[sinister]

After a certain point, some ELR sets no longer look like anything the rest of us might recognize as conventional rifles and scopes.

 

[Geno C.]

If any of these nay sayers ever got behind an ELR rifle and shot at an ELR target and eventually got a hit they would be smiling from ear to ear. 99% of them just think it pure luck a bullet hits something down there and most think the transonic transition is a block wall

I’m a bit of a nay sayer. But mostly to the “record” part of it. Bill himself said it wasn’t a record and recognizes the 2200ish record of the cold bore +2. While cool to hit an moa target that far out; for people to call it a record is what gets the laugh from most. Sure, the people that have never shot anything like elr have no clue what is possible, but those of us that do, know what it takes to make a hit. If you’re first or second round hitting moa targets at 3000 with some sort of regularity, then your a damn good shot. If you hit an moa target at 4 miles after 38 shots, then you’re shooting at a target. While fun, it’s not anything more than that. Pushing a system past what most think is possible is fun

 

[jasent]

I’m a bit of a nay sayer. But mostly to the “record” part of it. Bill himself said it wasn’t a record and recognizes the 2200ish record of the cold bore +2. While cool to hit an moa target that far out; for people to call it a record is what gets the laugh from most. Sure, the people that have never shot anything like elr have no clue what is possible, but those of us that do, know what it takes to make a hit. If you’re first or second round hitting moa targets at 3000 with some sort of regularity, then your a damn good shot. If you hit an moa target at 4 miles after 38 shots, then you’re shooting at a target. While fun, it’s not anything more than that. Pushing a system past what most think is possible is fun

Except the shooter never claimed it as a record. That was folks reporting the shot. Speaking of the 7k shot

 

[Geno C.]

Except the shooter never claimed it as a record. That was folks reporting the shot. Speaking of the 7k shot

Exactly, I said that in my 3rd sentence

 

[Milo 2.5]

Life becomes easier when one doesn't worry about what others think. SH was a tough crowd when the ELR craze was in it's infancy stages. Lot of one shot-one kill guys around, even given the improbability of cold bore at 2 miles.
Over on LRH these subjects get trashed too.
I applaud most of this, and we all learn from it. That said, there must be a line in the sand where practicality ends for 99% of shooters.
Keep shooting this far, you'll get a good job from me.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

IMO, the whole point of precision rifle fire is....wait for it....to be precise. That can mean different things to different people, but "precision rifle fire" to most that I have met, means a hit with the first shot or with a follow up shot.

Most people who would consider themselves "riflemen" do this type of shooting with a rifle that is man packable by a single man. Again, that means different things to different people, but IMO shit has gotten so out of hand as to be a mockery to the original intent.

Any limitations you put on this type of competition are guaranteed to be called unnecessary and arbitrary by some... and applauded by others.

My preference would be to limit weight of the gun and accoutrements (gun as carried) to 25 lbs and the barrel to 30 inches. Caliber would be limited to 338 or smaller (again, arbitrary but this is my idea and nothing more). No front rests. Only bipod and bag, or tripod (tripod would count against the weight limit).

The course of fire would have a limit of 2500 yards (because this is about the limit most can direct dial range without equipment like the Charlie TARAC) with targets decreasing in relative size as you go out. (A KYL rack at a mile might be an interesting exercise).

Tie breakers maybe could be a 5 round group for score on paper at 1 mile as well. Because if the contest is about precision, maybe there should be at least one point where precision is actually quantifed and verified on paper.

Just my opinion, nothing more.