ELR Wind and elevation question

[Bravo6niner]

So a buddy and I were out shooting a 300nm with 212 senacas and 37xc with 390 atips.
2010 yds
24-28 mph full value wind L-R
5800 da
62°

We experienced a few shots that would hit low and right. Like .6-.7 low and right .2-.3 right then with the same hold we would be back on the plate.

Winds no doubt were tricky and variable but have you guys experienced similar issues in higher wind situations??

 

[badassgunworks]

Wnd gust changes and direction changes and possable max ord. Issues with wind

 

[Steel head]

Where I shoot in pretty steep valleys a sudden mil or more drop/rise is fairly common.

 

[Bravo6niner]

Where I shoot in pretty steep valleys a sudden mil or more drop/rise is fairly common.

That’s reassuring to hear you’ve experienced that as well. We both had preliminary load work up done so we knew the loads we were shooting were good but hadn’t had them out past 800yds or so yet. Wind was calm when we decided to go shoot but by the time we actually made it out an hour later wind really picked up.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Are you running a chrono on every shot?

Doesn’t take a huge velocity difference to have some pretty significant elevation difference at elr distances.

 

[Bravo6niner]

Are you running a chrono on every shot?

Doesn’t take a huge velocity difference to have some pretty significant elevation difference at elr distances.

No we weren’t running a chrono at 2010. Prior outings showed an ES’s in the 15 range.

 

[Bravo6niner]

We had a pretty good idea it was an environmental issue where two guns were exhibiting the same type of issues. Also rh twist with L-R wind would also lead to low right misses from what I’ve read

 

[Steel head]

We had a pretty good idea it was an environmental issue where two guns were exhibiting the same type of issues. Also rh twist with L-R wind would also lead to low right misses from what I’ve read

As @badassgunworks said your getting into the range where max ordinance puts you into those mysterious wind gremlins that like to poop on your ego as well as surface conditions.

Usually it’s sudden, for maybe a few shots then back to normal and always happens for all rifles in that condition.
I hope you did some observation and noted conditions because sometimes it’s actually predictable.


I always take notes on wonky conditions.

 

[Bravo6niner]

As @badassgunworks said your getting into the range where max ordinance puts you into those mysterious wind gremlins that like to poop on your ego as well as surface conditions.

Usually it’s sudden, for maybe a few shots then back to normal and always happens for all rifles in that condition.
I hope you did some observation and noted conditions because sometimes it’s actually predictable.


I always take notes on wonky conditions.

I did put some notes in phone and took a few screen shots of the conditions. If you don’t mind saying, what conditions and observations do find most helpful to note?

We’ve shot in similar conditions before and haven’t observed issues to this degree.

That is definitely one thing I’ve been mulling over today on what conditions were different from our last high wind outing.

 

[badassgunworks]

No we weren’t running a chrono at 2010. Prior outings showed an ES’s in the 15 range.

Bingo thats your problem you need to be lowsingle digits add that to Max ord. unknown conditions and you're screwed

 

[Steel head]

I did put some notes in phone and took a few screen shots of the conditions. If you don’t mind saying, what conditions and observations do find most helpful to note?

We’ve shot in similar conditions before and haven’t observed issues to this degree.

That is definitely one thing I’ve been mulling over today on what conditions were different from our last high wind outing.

Trees and movement
Direction and consistency
Fog or low cloud movement
Lighting conditions


If you really want to dork out look into the aviation materials on effects on wind from altitude

Bingo thats your problem you need to be lowsingle digits add that to Max ord. unknown conditions and you're screwed

That 15 fps can be a couple tenths at that range.

 

[Bravo6niner]

Trees and movement
Direction and consistency
Fog or low cloud movement
Lighting conditions


If you really want to dork out look into the aviation materials on effects on wind from altitude


That 15 fps can be a couple tenths at that range.

I get that a lower ES would help but I’ve actually shot higher ES ammo at the same distance and had quite good results , albeit calmer conditions.

I guess the conditions in my latest outing could exaggerate the effects of my ES??

 

[badassgunworks]

Lighting conditions dont change ballistics only your ability see true location not to be confused.

 

[Steel head]

I get that a lower ES would help but I’ve actually shot higher ES ammo at the same distance and had quite good results , albeit calmer conditions.

I guess the conditions in my latest outing could exaggerate the effects of my ES??

It’s probably only two tenths with your rifles and having both rifles suddenly have the same issues it’s certainly environmentals.

 

[badassgunworks]

Dont under evaluate standard deviation it plays a huge factor in repeatability when you consider how its effected of wind over distance in the cartridge you were shooting

 

[Bravo6niner]

I will definitely take note of these conditions for future reference. My buddy and I are preparing for the NF elr match and history says it’s going to be windy there. Luckily it’s windy where I live so I’ll keep shooting and observing!!

 

[6.5SH]

I hope that someday inexpensive remote ultrasonic wind sensors become available.
FFS, ColdBore, Trasol and Genesis all have the capability for multiple winds, we just have no cheap or easy way to gather that info accurately.

 

[badassgunworks]

I hope that someday inexpensive remote ultrasonic wind sensors become available.
FFS, ColdBore, Trasol and Genesis all have the capability for multiple winds, we just have no cheap or easy way to gather that info accurately.

Its available for about 150,000

 

[badassgunworks]

I will definitely take note of these conditions for future reference. My buddy and I are preparing for the NF elr match and history says it’s going to be windy there. Luckily it’s windy where I live so I’ll keep shooting and observing!!

Are you shooting factory ammo ? Of not work on your loads its not hard to get low s.d.'s

 

[Bravo6niner]

Are you shooting factory ammo ? Of not work on your loads its not hard to get low s.d.'s

Reloads, but both of us were shooting virgin unprepped brass.

 

[6.5SH]

Its available for about 150,000

The common nautical sensors are in the $5-600 range, but still need stuff built to read and transmit the data (arduino is capable). The other part is deploying them, fixed and solar power is possible, but I'm thinking small drones. None of this is what I'd call "cheap" yet, but it's improving.

An example of where the DIY portion is at:

Open Source Ultrasonic Anemometer

Weather stations are a popular project for experimenting with various environmental sensors, and for wind speed and direction the choice is usually a simple cup anemometer and wind vane. For [Jianj…

hackaday.com

 

[badassgunworks]

The common nautical sensors are in the $5-600 range, but still need stuff built to read and transmit the data (arduino is capable). The other part is deploying them, fixed and solar power is possible, but I'm thinking small drones. None of this is what I'd call "cheap" yet, but it's improving.

An example of where the DIY portion is at:

Open Source Ultrasonic Anemometer

Weather stations are a popular project for experimenting with various environmental sensors, and for wind speed and direction the choice is usually a simple cup anemometer and wind vane. For [Jianj…

hackaday.com

Lidar

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Keep in mind, when it’s more than a couple tenths, it’s almost always not a single thing.

You can easily have a little velocity difference + wind induced vertical + lighting. All contributing a tenth or three (I believe the wind you described would be ~ .5 or so).

Then people will chase their tail trying to fix a single thing beyond what is capable.

And we also have to accept the fact that there are just some conditions we can’t beat on certain days, especially at extended distances.

 

[Steel head]

And we also have to accept the fact that there are just some conditions we can’t beat on certain days, especially at extended distances.

Those days certainly occur.
On those occasions I usually put the rifle away, set up a chair and spotting scope, light a cigar and watch the wind shenanigans or critters in the area and sip coffee.

I’m almost at the point I enjoy spotting and called shots as making them.

 

[Dogtown]

That’s really the crux of ELR: the magnitude of otherwise tiny variables increases in proportion to distance and time of flight.

 

[jasent]

That’s really the crux of ELR: the magnitude of otherwise tiny variables increases in proportion to distance and time of flight.

Yup. That’s what makes it fun

 

[Dogtown]

100% agree. All of the work that goes into further reducing those variables is a real challenge and any sport where you're constantly pushing the limits is a sport that will grow.

 

[Schw15]

In the bad Days of wind make sure you don't chase your calls adjusting. Make a couple shots with same hold and see what is going on for sure. But some days the wind just wins. I really don't care how much it's blowing that's easy it's the gusts and the unpredictable swirls ect.

Ps I should add specially when it's left to right wind but changes to north or south really mess up your holds elevation wise.

 

[Dogtown]

I spent a lot of years working with computational fluid dynamics professionally, and if there's one thing I learned from that it is that turbulence by its very nature is unpredictable. The best you can do is try to average the velocity of vortices and eddys, but that's so much easier when you have direct measurements. ELR shooters, on the other hand, have to attempt to measure them based on secondary effects, which is all the more reason to shoot the same hold a number of times instead of chasing the POI adjustment.

 

[oneshot.onehit]

This is common in the world of ELR or even midrange.
With a RH twist barrel
a wind from 9 o’clock heading to 3 o’clock will push a bullet down some impacting low
a wind from 3 o’clock to 9 o’clock will cause the bullet to climb some impacting high

Its called Aerodynamic Jump if you want to research it.

JH

 

[Gilly]

This is common in the world of ELR or even midrange.
With a RH twist barrel
a wind from 9 o’clock heading to 3 o’clock will push a bullet down some impacting low
a wind from 3 o’clock to 9 o’clock will cause the bullet to climb some impacting high

Its called Aerodynamic Jump if you want to research it.

JH

There seems to be more to it than that considering the low misses happened randomly on same string of fire after making impacts on the same target with previous rounds. I would say aerodynamic jump was mostly accounted for. How much AJ is there at 2000 yards for a 10 mph wind? Would wind speed have to increase 10, 15 mph from what was already accounted for to make an additional .5 mil of drop? AB app only shows .2 elevation difference from a 0 - 29 mph 270° wind at 2000 yards.

 

[jasent]

Wind does some crazy things up there. Maybe hit some way faster wind, Could have been a down draft even. Could have been a little bit of many different things at the same time. No way to know for sure with out a crystal ball.
Did you remember to take the tangerines on this trip?

 

[Bravo6niner]

we were shooting from the top of one hill to another hill crossing 2 valleys that probably had 30-35’ rise from bottom to top

 

[jasent]

Ya but that 212 Seneca traveled about 90’ above line of sight

 

[Bravo6niner]

Ya and 37xc was a tick over 110’ I think.

 

[wade2big]

Bingo thats your problem you need to be lowsingle digits add that to Max ord. unknown conditions and you're screwed

Are you shooting factory ammo ? Of not work on your loads its not hard to get low s.d.'s

@Bravo6niner is saying his extreme spread is 15fps. Wouldn’t that equate to single digit SD’s and a fairly low one at that? I think you guys are talking around each other.