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Remember bump stocks.....
Funny how Obama's ATF gave us cool stuff... Trump's ATF....
Makes me think the ATF is playing politics to help Democrats and hurt Republicans.
Boy, are you ignorant on how agencies work. What you think is the way it should be. However, the way it IS, is that they make broad rulings in things that the politicians won't touch for fear of voter backlash. So they (politicians) have deniablity. The EPA is likely the very worst of the bunch.Yikes! I thought the ATF could not create laws or interpret them, only enforce laws that have been voted in.
Boy, are you ignorant on how agencies work. What you think is the way it should be. However, the way it IS, is that that make broad rulings in things that the politicians won't touch for fear of voter backlash. So they (politicians) have deniablity. The EPA is likely the very worst of the bunch.
And that is the question. If you read the letter authored by Q's attorney, that is the crux of their issue with the opinion. There is no criteria outlined by which the ATF came to the conclusion that the AR pistol is a SBR.what could possibly make the sugar weasel substantially different than dozens of other ar pistols sold by other manufacturers also with the sba3 ?
DAMN STRAIGHT! One of the best posts in a long time. The gas can thing really hits a nerve with me, as does the DEF thing. But the line about "flappy, useless, deflated nippleless gender neutral dolphin crying ass hippy boobs" is inspired (and I'm not even sure what it all means).Goverment intervention and overreach?
Just take a look at the new Gas can. Ruined.
Def fluid. Moronic.
Removal of micro beads from cleaners and personal hygiene products.
Everything you see in life that used to work normally, and now is just cheap, stupid, and pointless. - Thats what they do.
Everything the lettered agencies touch become flappy, useless, deflated nippleless gender neutral dolphin crying ass hippy boobs. The gun rights cartoon about the cake is spot on.
Instead of covid checks, we should all get nfa item vouchers to stimulate the economy and crotch punch the progressive status quo. You know what i just realized? I've become army jerry. I'm buying a jerry can, and more ammo tomorrow in his honor and I suggest you all do the same.
Everything the lettered agencies touch become flappy, useless, deflated nippleless gender neutral dolphin crying ass hippy boobs.
FWIW, I got the same email, and connected with ATF and SB-Tactical.
The take away here is that the ATF is looking, firearm by firearm for whether, taken as a whole, the firearm design, length, caliber, capacity, type of brace, etc. looks like a pistol or looks like an SBR. When I say "looks," it is more a matter of weighing the entirety of the firearm. Just a guess, but when you pick this firearm up, it is hard to imagine using it as a brace. Must have pretty thin arms. The back of the brace also begins to morph into a stock. Then it collapses, etc.
I am not agreeing, just stating what I was told. Personal opinion is that the ATF is being arbitrary, given that SB Tactical has received favorable opinions in the past, but that is for the brace. Q is getting scruitiny for the full package.
What this is NOT, is a complete assault on the brace and the AR pistol.
What I do not know is: Did Q, LLC send the firearm to the ATF Technical Branch and ask: "Is this a Pistol ?" As the ATF letter noted that the techncial branch has now opined that it is an SBR, perhaps they did not take that step. Some manufacturers do not like to ask questions and get the wrong answer. Some think I am wrong in saying and doing, but I err on the side of presenting a case and getting the answer up front. The reprecussions can be devastating on the back-end.
In this case, Q could be billed for lots of money in NFA fees for each rifle.
You think a lifelong New York Democrat will come to save your gun rights? I like him, but hes an enemy of the 2nd in my book.It’s a shame that our president hasn’t stepped up and done anything, considering the ATF is considered part of the executive branch and all. Will definitely cost him some votes if he doesn’t reverse the ATF’s nonsense.
You think a lifelong New York Democrat will come to save your gun rights? I like him, but hes an enemy of the 2nd in my book.
I assume the ATF has some sort of firearm training or qualifications. Do the teach their people to shot a pistol with one hand or two.Everything about the ATF wreaks of gross incompetence and logical inconsistencies
one example, look at the way a "pistol" is defined:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-pistol#:~:text=18 U.S.C., § 921(A,with, the bore(s);
"18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(29) and 27 CFR § 478.11
The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:
- a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);
- and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)."
How ludicrous would it be for the ATF to say that since Glock or Smith and Wesson have pictures of their "pistols" being fired with two hands and due to the way they are marketed on their websites, that ... that is indicative of a design intent to be fired with two hands and not one hand ....
therefore, glocks and m&p's are being re-classified as sbr's and not pistols
the public would be outraged and people would be able to have a clear example of why the ATF is such a clown show and the atf's classifications are arbitrary and capricious
Here's what I learned today when my firearm dealer called me to notify me about this issue. Kevin Brittingham, the old owner of Q, inventor of the .300 BO when he owned AAC, never submitted the pistol brace to the ATF for approval. As he was asked to. So the ATF and Q have been going back and forth on this issue. It's a dick measuring contest. And we all know that the ATF has the power to do whatever the fuck they want whenever they want. Granted, Brittingham made a mistake by not submitting the brace for approval. But why in the hell does the purchaser have to pay for this shit!?!?!? Kind of like the current day chess game being played with the subtitle of "COVID19". The high and mighty are in a pissing contest and we have to deal with the consequences.
Part of the treasury agency... IRS. They can create their own laws, interpret their own laws, judge their own laws as they see fitYikes! I thought the ATF could not create laws or interpret them, only enforce laws that have been voted in.
...and the only US court cases where you are traditionally guilty until proven innocent.Part of the treasury agency... IRS. They can create their own laws, interpret their own laws, judge their own laws as they see fit
They are not supposed to be in charge. Congress is. They are there to administrate and enforce the laws (not rules) that exist. It is not legal for them to make new rules/laws without congressional approval. Congress needs to grow a pair of balls and take their rightful place in this country’s rule of law.Yep. The bureaucracy is in charge of interpreting, enforcing, and changing its own rules which have the force of law.... without a law being passed.
Short story: we may need 1776 again.
For what it's worth:
I have a theory about this that there are really only 2 logical explanations for this opinion. How I got here:
First: I first read the ATF Letter and then the Q response letter, I thought aloud "something is really weird about this...the ATF knows their opinions are over-reach, but they've been very careful to tread carefully on these issues. They know one wrong ruling going to the courts could neuter their power."
Second: I watched the Colion Noir interview with Q, where he walked Colion through some specifics, like: they didn't make this public originally to try and work it out, and the ATF is now refusing to respond to Q in writing about the legal basis of the opinion. So I thought to myself: "OK, that's odd....it's almost like the ATF is worried about the opinion, and is trying to backtrack, if they're refusing to respond to it in writing".
Third: I just watched the Mr GunsNGear video on the topic, and he pointed out something I missed, the original opinion was issued by a Field Agent. Opinions like this usually don't get issued by Field Agents. They usually come from higher ups or HQ employees.
So my theory is that based on the above, there are two possible explanations:
1. ATF is testing the waters intentionally, and using an expendable employee that they can throw under the bus if they get their peepee slapped as a result. Explains the odd behavior and source of the opinion. Explains why the opinion has very little legal basis. Ahead of the election, maybe someone believes it will have an impact on the election, or maybe they just want to try it because they think it will get a reaction (or avoid reaction) from Trump because of the election.
2. The ATF Field Agent went rogue and intentionally issued the opinion (maybe also leaking the info to Gaetz at the same time), to get the ATF into a court case where the ATF has almost no legal basis (a great case to take to court), to try and curb the ATF power.
I think #1 is most likely. But #2 is what I'm praying is true. ATF has always been very careful not to go too far. They know they're on shaky ground and overreaching in these opinions, so they've been careful not to put themselves in a bad position. In this case, it will almost certainly end in ATF backtracking and saying "whoops our bad", or this is going to court. I don't see any judge ruling in favor of ATF here....there's literally no legal basis....would ATF be that dumb after all these years?
The pistol in question is not really an different than lots of others that come from the factory in very similar configurations.
Me thinks that the ATF wants to hurt Trump's re-election chances by throwing a spanner in the works that Trump is too stupid and vain to realize will hurt him...
I'm a dumbass, but, I always thought an AR pistol, was measured from the barrel crown to the end of the buffer tube, or, am I full of shit?? IF this is correct, pistols use pistol buffer tubes, which are shorter than rifle/carbine buffer tubes. I know nothing about the HB, so, isn't a pistol OAL, just at 26", or an 1/8"-1/4" longer?
I'm really trying to NOT be a dumbass, just trying to learn. Mac
Hurt Trump? He is packing SCOTUS with Young Conservatives. This, in theory, should overturn a lot of these unconstitutional laws. Including his EO on Bump Stocks.
Have you seen how many folks are still "never Trump" because of the bump stock ban?
Or how many are claiming they are done with Trump if pistol braces go away?
Conservatives are kind of their own worst enemy, they are easily wound up by the opposition to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory it seems. Especially if the Republicans have anything to do with it. Bump Stock ban could have been a huge win..... Nope totally made it into a big defeat.
Maybe the better question would be is the fact that a manufacturer designs and intends a “pistol” to be shot with two hands sufficient to re-classify the “pistol” into a short-barreled rifle?
Obviously, that is not the position that has been taken with handguns. Yes, they can be shot with one hand. Yes, certain manufacturers obviously have design elements intended for two handed operation of “pistols”. Traditionally and in practice, handguns have not reclassified based on that.
That alone is enough to show enforcement is arbitrary and capricious and that the statutory definition of a “pistol” logically inconsistent and not being applied according to current practices.
I offer an alternative interpretation of this particular cease and desist order…
BLUF: The cease and desist order is not addressing SB Braces, but Q's design-intent for the use of the Honey Badger and Sugar Weasel.
CAUTION: If you are an Originalist, you must overlook the phrase "shall not be infringed" in the Second Amendment, and by extension overlook the fact that the National Firearms Act of 1934 and Gun Control Act of 1964 are lawfully vacant.
…I'll give you a second to get yourself in that state of mind…
…Okay…
Here we go:
(1) By statutory definition (GCA68):
The term “Pistol” means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:
- a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);
- and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
(2) By statutory definition (GCA6):
A rifle is defined, in part, as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(3) The statute defines the nature of a rifle not-in-terms-of use, but in-terms-of-design-and-manufacture (‘made or remade’).
(4) Brace variants are (by conspicuous design features) intended to assist the shooter in using pistols one-handed. When a designer/redesigned or a maker/remake includes such a brace on a pistol, they have designed-and-made a pistol.
(5) "Designing and making" is different from using. When someone picks up a Glock XX shoots it two-handed, the GCA68 is silent. The Glock XX has not been designed or redesigned, made or remade. It was made as a pistol and remains a pistol. This is equally true of an AR-15 pistol that was designed and made to be used one-handed.
(6) Q is the designer and maker of the Honey Badger and the Sugar Weasel.
(7) The ATFE's cease and desist order specifically references the description of the firearms from Q's website.
(8) Q's website specifically compares the form and function of the Honey Badger to an MP5 configured as an SBR.
(9) Q's website specifically represents the Sugar Weasel as an alternative to the Honey Badger.
(10) The ATF is inferring their design intent not based on the physical characteristics of the parts involved, but how they were designed to be used by the designer and maker based on their comparison to the function of the MP5 SBR.
To the ATF (if you’re reading this): All pistols that I design, redesign, make or remake are intended for one-handed use. (If you could read my mind, you'd know that.)
DEF is an improvement over the DPF systems that tried to BURN the soot away.DAMN STRAIGHT! One of the best posts in a long time. The gas can thing really hits a nerve with me, as does the DEF thing. But the line about "flappy, useless, deflated nippleless gender neutral dolphin crying ass hippy boobs" is inspired (and I'm not even sure what it all means).
Ah, and therein lies the difference between "law" and "policy". The ATF cannot make law; however they can and often do make policy... which is what we're seeing here.Yikes! I thought the ATF could not create laws or interpret them, only enforce laws that have been voted in.
Make policy IS law. Interpretation is where it gets grey.Ah, and therein lies the difference between "law" and "policy". The ATF cannot make law; however they can and often do make policy... which is what we're seeing here.