I listened to the podcast and I obviously am behind in some conversations. I don't need to get into a debate on the issues. I don't shoot any comps yet. I am try in to figure out what Frank is talking about. Specifics. What are people doing? I understand the prize table thing. That is what it is. As a new shooter I have an opinion on that but that is not what I want to get into. Are people gaming the matches by doing things in a gray area? Are some people getting more time to look at stages? Are people getting help from other people outside of their squad? Are people using equipment that doesn't conform? Like I said I don't want to debate, just the particulars. I just want to know what the concerns are to know if I would want to work up to participate in some of these matches.
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Episode 86
- Thread starter ShortShooter1908
- Start date
Episode 84 is the podcast where this PRS talk began (though this conversation seems to be ongoing for years now). Lowlight is pretty candid about his position on matter, you should hear it from him.
So I relistened to Episode 84. I found "The Jersey Letter" and the followup.
From someone who has never seen a match beyond a private, local 22 match, I don't know if I want to attend. The match I shot was a $5 buy in per round (5 shots/round) highest score splits with the house. I always looked at it as gambling. Once I laid that money out, it was gone. If I got anything back it was a good day. I was a test of marksmanship, not a Payday. Yeah there were guys that won a lot. Hell, I had a day or 2 that I suprised the shit out of myself. There was also a rule if you won one round, you sat out the next.
I can't say that this format would work for a national match, but when did shooting matches become anything other than just a shooting match? I get that I "been there & seen that" but if you are purposely looking for the "Well, they didn't say I couldn't" route, I'm less inclined to go to one. If you bring an AX and I bring a Savage, ok I know that you probably have a mechanical advantage. If you're running in a pack of guys all sharing info on wind and how you run the stage, how is the guy who shows up for the first time going to feel? It's not about being a snowflake, it's about shooting on skill, not how much you can bend the rules before you get caught.
I am a long way from even thinking about going to a national match. At this point I'm not wondering if I shouldn't just work on my skills away from all that shit. I run. I DON'T run marathons. I have no desire to run marathons. I don't need some cheesey medal to tell me if I ran well or not. I would like to go to a match and be competitive at some point when my skills warrant it. I don't want to end up where I have to compromise my ethics to get there.
As far as selling shit off the prize table, I would say the companies that provide the prizes keep a list of the people that take their stuff. If they don't run it for a while, blacklist them if things ever get to the point where companies actually pay for entry fees and gear. You screw us now, good luck down the road.
But what the fuck do I know? I'm just a guy who has no skin in the game.
From someone who has never seen a match beyond a private, local 22 match, I don't know if I want to attend. The match I shot was a $5 buy in per round (5 shots/round) highest score splits with the house. I always looked at it as gambling. Once I laid that money out, it was gone. If I got anything back it was a good day. I was a test of marksmanship, not a Payday. Yeah there were guys that won a lot. Hell, I had a day or 2 that I suprised the shit out of myself. There was also a rule if you won one round, you sat out the next.
I can't say that this format would work for a national match, but when did shooting matches become anything other than just a shooting match? I get that I "been there & seen that" but if you are purposely looking for the "Well, they didn't say I couldn't" route, I'm less inclined to go to one. If you bring an AX and I bring a Savage, ok I know that you probably have a mechanical advantage. If you're running in a pack of guys all sharing info on wind and how you run the stage, how is the guy who shows up for the first time going to feel? It's not about being a snowflake, it's about shooting on skill, not how much you can bend the rules before you get caught.
I am a long way from even thinking about going to a national match. At this point I'm not wondering if I shouldn't just work on my skills away from all that shit. I run. I DON'T run marathons. I have no desire to run marathons. I don't need some cheesey medal to tell me if I ran well or not. I would like to go to a match and be competitive at some point when my skills warrant it. I don't want to end up where I have to compromise my ethics to get there.
As far as selling shit off the prize table, I would say the companies that provide the prizes keep a list of the people that take their stuff. If they don't run it for a while, blacklist them if things ever get to the point where companies actually pay for entry fees and gear. You screw us now, good luck down the road.
But what the fuck do I know? I'm just a guy who has no skin in the game.
new guys need to quit assuming everyone wasnt a "new" guy at some point...the guys winning arent winning because they bent the rules the most...theyre winning cause theyre better shooters, and they werent born that way
go to a match, youll learn more, be challenged, and be a better shooter than you could ever teach yourself on your own
go to a match, youll learn more, be challenged, and be a better shooter than you could ever teach yourself on your own
I get there is a learning curve. It's not that I expect to be competitive on my first go-around. I expect that that the playing field is level on my first go-around.
Go find a 1-day local match and have a good time. These are probably all I’ll ever do. There’s got to be one close; they’re popping up everywhere. I’ve become a better, more confident shooter after going to a few.
it will be as level as your problem solving ability and attention to detail will make it
ive literally shot stages clean using a certain position/strategy that was perfectly within the rules and intent of the stage, and then had new guys follow and try the most retarded approach ive ever seen that wouldnt work even for the best shooters...theres way less "gaming for an advantage" than everyone makes it seem, you dont hear about the 24 stages from the match that were shot straight forward, you hear about the 1 that someone had a better plan of attack than someone else that usally equates to 3-5 shots from a 200 round match and that person lost by 30 pts...
ive literally shot stages clean using a certain position/strategy that was perfectly within the rules and intent of the stage, and then had new guys follow and try the most retarded approach ive ever seen that wouldnt work even for the best shooters...theres way less "gaming for an advantage" than everyone makes it seem, you dont hear about the 24 stages from the match that were shot straight forward, you hear about the 1 that someone had a better plan of attack than someone else that usally equates to 3-5 shots from a 200 round match and that person lost by 30 pts...
I don't mean to say that a better solution isn't part of the game. What I was envisioning was where the spirit of the stage was broken. I wish I could remember where I heard it, but I think Frank mentioned it in a podcast somewhere along the way. The stage said that the rifle must be in contact with the post/barrier/tire whatever. Now it didn't say anything else about what could be used and someone dropped the rifle down on a tripod and had incidental contact with the object. Granted the stage could have been written better and yes if you have a quick mind you could see the hole big enough to drive a Mack truck through. However, the design and spirit of stage is pretty clear. Even if I saw the hole, for me I would want to shoot it as the director designed it. Am I being too idealistic or naive?
i get where youre coming from, 100%, but i feel in cases like that...the MD needs to make it CLEAR...myself and a few others run monthly matches in our area, and we make certain stages very clear on whats to be used and others we leave them super vague on purpose in order to see who can think outside the box...so sometimes as a shooter its not always as clear as some make it seem
some of the time MDs put a stage/position in that is flat out retarded...where if you ever found yourself in that position, youd never feel confident taking a shot, you would instantly look for option B...ive shot stages before and left them saying "well, i know ill never shoot from anything like that again if i have the choice...". ive shot a stage before that was a wobbly barricade, from a suspended chain table, at a 8" target @ 450 yds...i didnt even shoot it, i just dry fired and saved my ammo...still finished top 3 in the match cause the average score on it was like a 1 lol...those types of stages are a waste of ammo in my opinion usually the ones guys look to game by stuffing a bag somewhere or using a piece of gear to stabilize something, because the hit % would be trash shooting it "in the spirit" of the stage
here are 2 stages from our match coming up this weekend:
Stage 3: Log Swing – 120 Seconds, 9 total rounds
Upon start shooter will assume a position on the log on one of the 3 marked spots. Shooter will engage Coyote Target 1 @ 362 yds and Circle Target 2 @ 268 yds IN THE ORDER COYOTE > CIRCLE > COYOTE. Shooter will repeat this cycle from each of the other 2 marked spots on the log for a total of 9 rounds.
Stage 5: The Fence – 120 Seconds, 10 total rounds
Upon start shooter will take a position on 1 of the 5 marked locations on the fence. Shooter will engage the lower target 1 on the road @ 455 yds with 2 rounds, from each of the 5 positions. THIS STAGE IS 1 BAG ONLY and NO TRIPODS.
Stage 3 looks pretty straight forward, right? it doesnt mention anything about gear or what position, its vague on purpose...Lay the gun on the log and shoot? Thats how everyone does it...i've yet to see anyone shoot it how i WISH someone would...sitting on the log positions while using a tripod up front...it would make the transitions easier and faster, and since the log is various heights that make some shots awkward kneeling and some awkward prone, it would save a ton of time adjusting for each engagement...i know if i did it once, everyone would start doing it...since i wrote the stage i just shoot it like everyone else, but im hoping one day someone thinks outside the box...
Stage 5 is actually one written straight forward...game all you want, with just 1 bag...not much the shooter can do there
maybe someone going to shoot the match this weekend will read this post
lol
some of the time MDs put a stage/position in that is flat out retarded...where if you ever found yourself in that position, youd never feel confident taking a shot, you would instantly look for option B...ive shot stages before and left them saying "well, i know ill never shoot from anything like that again if i have the choice...". ive shot a stage before that was a wobbly barricade, from a suspended chain table, at a 8" target @ 450 yds...i didnt even shoot it, i just dry fired and saved my ammo...still finished top 3 in the match cause the average score on it was like a 1 lol...those types of stages are a waste of ammo in my opinion usually the ones guys look to game by stuffing a bag somewhere or using a piece of gear to stabilize something, because the hit % would be trash shooting it "in the spirit" of the stage
here are 2 stages from our match coming up this weekend:
Stage 3: Log Swing – 120 Seconds, 9 total rounds
Upon start shooter will assume a position on the log on one of the 3 marked spots. Shooter will engage Coyote Target 1 @ 362 yds and Circle Target 2 @ 268 yds IN THE ORDER COYOTE > CIRCLE > COYOTE. Shooter will repeat this cycle from each of the other 2 marked spots on the log for a total of 9 rounds.
Stage 5: The Fence – 120 Seconds, 10 total rounds
Upon start shooter will take a position on 1 of the 5 marked locations on the fence. Shooter will engage the lower target 1 on the road @ 455 yds with 2 rounds, from each of the 5 positions. THIS STAGE IS 1 BAG ONLY and NO TRIPODS.
Stage 3 looks pretty straight forward, right? it doesnt mention anything about gear or what position, its vague on purpose...Lay the gun on the log and shoot? Thats how everyone does it...i've yet to see anyone shoot it how i WISH someone would...sitting on the log positions while using a tripod up front...it would make the transitions easier and faster, and since the log is various heights that make some shots awkward kneeling and some awkward prone, it would save a ton of time adjusting for each engagement...i know if i did it once, everyone would start doing it...since i wrote the stage i just shoot it like everyone else, but im hoping one day someone thinks outside the box...
Stage 5 is actually one written straight forward...game all you want, with just 1 bag...not much the shooter can do there
maybe someone going to shoot the match this weekend will read this post
lol
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