ERL Central vs KO2M

[Hoffer]

Theoretical topic for discussion .. not for flaming, just actual conversation

It seems with the start of the "world record" ELR Central there will be a natural split between the KO2M style and "world record " events. KO2M is the top long range format as of now with them setting the rules of ELR to date. You win KO2M you are the best.


Formats
KO2M Multi target - short time frame - targets of different sizes - sniper format - no cold bore - top score wins
ELR C Basically single target - more time per target - standardized target - luke warm bore - win / lose ... no in between

Will they work together or eventually split? With such a small group of competitors a split would not be good for anyone. Think CART / IRL factions of Indycar.

KO2M is changing their rules to 40 lb rifle in 2019
Most top competitors will do both formats and now with different equipment for each.
This will essentially add 50% more cost and 50% more time invested.

 

[Lowlight]

Honestly, the K02M was first, but it was/is very limited in the format. The knock-out style is a bit unnecessary and it really needs to be expanded. Personally, while not as far, the PRS ELR events are more of a competition vs the format K02M uses. When you have the entire Tubb Range at Raton and only 1 person is shooting at a time, it really hurts the competition. Raton is notorious for terrible winds that creep up in the morning. When you shoot 1 person at a time you are subject to timing more so than your ability. You can easily be the guy who shoots after 10 AM and gets blown off target 3x faster than the guys shooting at 8 AM.

Limitation on resources has been cited, but they are not using the resources available.

ELR Central started to unify the standards as to what a record is. They want this stuff standardized and policed so guys are not showing up to a location, throwing rounds at a target until it gets and calling it record. The ELR Central events are just combining SHOT with the fact everyone will be there at the same time. They want to adopt a standard and putting on events is one way of doing it.

Behind the scenes, it's very conflicted, but in a positive way. Everyone has a different agenda. Enjoyment, financial, personal, you have a lot of competing agendas trying to standardize something with no set standards.

Rifle wise, they are limiting the weight because they don't want benchrest rifles, they want some sort of practical application. That is why the ELR Central event is being held at shorter ranges. They want the standard to be actual, repeatable hits on target. 3 out of 3 or 3 out of 5 and not just a touch of the steel wins. You also get a lot of guys that don't do as well complain about the guys that work better together. So you have to be mindful of the teams and how the rules are applied. You had teams back out of this years K02M because Team AB shot at Raton early. You can rent Raton for $1000 and shoot the same distances, just at different targets. And teams without the resources felt that guys with resources had an unfair advantage being able to dope rifles and software early at Raton.

There is also discussion on rests, and weight, because guys want to use the F Class front, rests vs a Bipod. Do you include the rest as part of the weight? What about benches, there are guys with means but cannot shoot in the prone, so they want to carry benches to the events. It's about balancing participation vs standardizing equipment without having to list classes. Breaking up the rifles into classes can come later.

These are just the two most popular right now, but there are others doing this, Oscar has his series in CA which I believe is monthly, the PRS expanded their ELR events this year, 3 or 4, and you have the nomad guys who are hosting events in places like TX.

I am supporting ELR Central, I like the idea of standardizing this and bringing it to the masses. It's not easy, it's not cheap, but you can do it within the standards using a factory 338 and factory ammo should you choose to go that route. You may not win, but you can certainly be competitive at 2000, 2500 yards when it's required you get actual hits vs just throwing rounds at something.

 

[Hoffer]

There is also discussion on rests, and weight, because guys want to use the F Class front, rests vs a Bipod. Do you include the rest as part of the weight? What about benches, there are guys with means but cannot shoot in the prone, so they want to carry benches to the events. It's about balancing participation vs standardizing equipment without having to list classes. Breaking up the rifles into classes can come later.
.

I believe anything needed on the line including spotting scopes with tripods, mats, rests etc should be in the weight limit. If you have to carry it in it should be weighed. I could have a 40lb "mat" for a nice stable platform and I believe that should also be counted in the overall weight. Too many ways around the rules as written

 

[Lowlight]

Baby steps,

Right now nobody is flaunting the rules. I did not see anything that even tiptoed to the line in terms of rifles and rests. Sure you can start gaming it, but up until now, nobody has gone over the line, at least none that I have seen and I was there.

What they are looking to avoid is the heavy benchrest rifles, like this,



They want something a bit more practical and so far everyone is responding correctly to this.

it's not easy to standardize something like this, but guys like Paul Philips is doing a great job of managing this whole endeavor.

Give it time, stay within the rules and you're good. No heavy rests, Bipods, even if they are F Class style. Nothing too heavy, it's still close to man-portable.

They are limiting who and how you can spot. When guys are showing up with super high dollar thermal equipment you see more of an advantage with that vs a rifle that is 40LBS.

It's all getting added to the discussion. I believe we have two meetings plus the Shoot on Sunday at SHOT, so things are moving forward.

 

[northern50]

I believe anything needed on the line including spotting scopes with tripods, mats, rests etc should be in the weight limit. If you have to carry it in it should be weighed. I could have a 40lb "mat" for a nice stable platform and I believe that should also be counted in the overall weight. Too many ways around the rules as written

Then why don't we all go back to shooting the .233 and call it a day?

Big guns weigh more, simple as that. The rifle I shot last year at KO2M weighed 49lbs. right where the rules said I could be.. Now due to a rule change I'll switch gears and build a light one. Does it piss me off, yes. Will it stop me, no. I wanted to prove the point a 50 was capable for competition when others said that couldn't be done. Designed a bullet, built the rifle, did the best I could to promote the 50 as an active FCSA member/shooter. Due to the rule change I will not be sticking to the 50 bullet, there are better options. I sure will not be doing what everyone else does though. Limiting the weight away from 50lbs cuts the barrel length down on a 50, thus cutting the balls off it. Also.. 50lbs is the FCSA "Hunter" class weight limit. Having these two hand in hand promoted staying and shooting the worlds with the same rifle. At this point if I don't get into the KO2M the probability of shooting the worlds alone is less. How is that for promoting the club (FCSA) who started the KO2M?

My $0.02

 

[Lowlight]

I believe the current weak point is the target size.

They are basically calling for a 1 MOA target at ELR / ULR distances. And while 36 Inches at 2500 is reasonable, at 3600 yards it's pretty darn tough.

The targets should be 1 MOA tall and 2 MOA wide at a minimum, that should be the entry into the World Record Attempt. Use a qualifying target to start and then end it at the 1 MOA version. It's not very practical to get repeatable hits on target that is beyond transonic with a very long, almost 10-second TOF at the furthest distances. If we stick to the shorter ranges and require multiple hits it's not as bad, but once this extends out, the TOF will start to take its toll on the target size being so small.

Even PRS events average a 2 MOA, and most of that is well inside 1000 yards. Here at ELR Distances, they require a 1 MOA Target which is super tough to get repeatable hits on.

 

[Hoffer]

Then why don't we all go back to shooting the .233 and call it a day?

Big guns weigh more, simple as that. The rifle I shot last year at KO2M weighed 49lbs. right where the rules said I could be.. Now due to a rule change I'll switch gears and build a light one. Does it piss me off, yes. Will it stop me, no. I wanted to prove the point a 50 was capable for competition when others said that couldn't be done. Designed a bullet, built the rifle, did the best I could to promote the 50 as an active FCSA member/shooter. Due to the rule change I will not be sticking to the 50 bullet, there are better options. I sure will not be doing what everyone else does though. Limiting the weight away from 50lbs cuts the barrel length down on a 50, thus cutting the balls off it. Also.. 50lbs is the FCSA "Hunter" class weight limit. Having these two hand in hand promoted staying and shooting the worlds with the same rifle. At this point if I don't get into the KO2M the probability of shooting the worlds alone is less. How is that for promoting the club (FCSA) who started the KO2M?

My $0.02

I'm not saying if you weighed everything it would be 40lb. You would have to raise the weight limit to say for instance 70 lb so that it would still be in the man carry-able realm.

Awesome shooting with your 50 cal BTW. Heck awesome shooting with any caliber!

It is an unusual circumstance that the FCSA would pretty much eliminate the 50 cal from the matches.

 

[Fursniper]

"I am supporting ELR Central, I like the idea of standardizing this and bringing it to the masses. It's not easy, it's not cheap, but you can do it within the standards using a factory 338 and factory ammo should you choose to go that route. You may not win, but you can certainly be competitive at 2000, 2500 yards when it's required you get actual hits vs just throwing rounds at something".

+This+. I think Frank has got his head wrapped around this pretty well. His comments on target size & TOF are spot on too. MOA at 3600yds? Gimme a break. If you're going to get anal about MOA then at least keep it vertical & allow a little extra leeway for wind.

 

[Hoffer]

I believe the current weak point is the target size.

They are basically calling for a 1 MOA target at ELR / ULR distances. And while 36 Inches at 2500 is reasonable, at 3600 yards it's pretty darn tough.

The targets should be 1 MOA tall and 2 MOA wide at a minimum, that should be the entry into the World Record Attempt. Use a qualifying target to start and then end it at the 1 MOA version. It's not very practical to get repeatable hits on target that is beyond transonic with a very long, almost 10-second TOF at the furthest distances. If we stick to the shorter ranges and require multiple hits it's not as bad, but once this extends out, the TOF will start to take its toll on the target size being so small.

Even PRS events average a 2 MOA, and most of that is well inside 1000 yards. Here at ELR Distances, they require a 1 MOA Target which is super tough to get repeatable hits on.

The 36" target is the major flaw.
Look at KO2M. Only one hit past 3300 ever on a much larger target during competition.
1 MOA would be reasonable, but still realistic. 36" past 3600 would be exponentially harder thus limiting the max "world record" range. With a 36" plate when the record gets past 3200-3600 the whole deal will come to a screeching halt. The whole idea is to progress the sport and once progression stops so does the sport.

 

[hognuts]

I like the fact that there IS a format and that we are having the discussion. I think things will evolve as it moves along and improve. Not everyone is ever going to be 100% satisfied, and I can understand the dismay of those who fall outside the boundaries that are laid out by the rules, not sure if there is a "one size fits all" answer. Although in the URSA matches there isn't a weapon restriction for bench rigs, etc. I don't feel handicapped against the heavier rifles.

 

[Hairy Biker]

The missing piece relates to ranges - where are they? And yes, you need to sort the targets out. I like paper at the moment because it works without batteries, doesn't need to be repainted between shooters and will even tell you how your bullet is travelling by the mark it leaves behind....

oh, and make two classes like 1KBR - Light Gun under 40lbs and with a bipod. Heavy Gun ... if you can carry it by yourself to the line. Heavy Guns lot more accurate but they can be the Devil to tune.

 

[Hoffer]

I like the fact that there IS a format and that we are having the discussion. I think things will evolve as it moves along and improve. Not everyone is ever going to be 100% satisfied, and I can understand the dismay of those who fall outside the boundaries that are laid out by the rules, not sure if there is a "one size fits all" answer. Although in the URSA matches there isn't a weapon restriction for bench rigs, etc. I don't feel handicapped against the heavier rifles.

Not really about what the rules are. More who will lead and who will follow or will they eventually combine with one set of rules

 

[hognuts]

I get that there is push back. Kind of like "who the hell are you to set these arbitrary standards?" But, other than URSA, I really don't see too many people taking the lead on this to propose an alternative venue.

I love competing in the URSA events as well, but the best we can do as shooters, in my mind, is read the rules for whatever the venue is, see if we can or even want to fall within them, then practice within those guidelines and do the best we can.

 

[timintx]

Baby steps,

Right now nobody is flaunting the rules. I did not see anything that even tiptoed to the line in terms of rifles and rests. Sure you can start gaming it, but up until now, nobody has gone over the line, at least none that I have seen and I was there.

What they are looking to avoid is the heavy benchrest rifles, like this,



They want something a bit more practical and so far everyone is responding correctly to this.

it's not easy to standardize something like this, but guys like Paul Philips is doing a great job of managing this whole endeavor.

Give it time, stay within the rules and you're good. No heavy rests, Bipods, even if they are F Class style. Nothing too heavy, it's still close to man-portable.

They are limiting who and how you can spot. When guys are showing up with super high dollar thermal equipment you see more of an advantage with that vs a rifle that is 40LBS.

It's all getting added to the discussion. I believe we have two meetings plus the Shoot on Sunday at SHOT, so things are moving forward.

Agreed Frank,I have shot with Bruce Baer and Dee Tomkins and her husband George for many years,their guns are only set up for one target with return to battery being paramount .The only real advantage over a lighter rifle is speed,to be able to shoot fast. A light gun has just as much of a chance to shoot a tight group but you have to give up some speed to get the shots in tight. That being said ,to move to multiple targets with benchrest style gun is really a whole different set up and it should be interesting how the combinations of both will pan out. but from a benchrest perspective five shot or ten shots groups are the standard to prove consistency of weapon and this goes for the mile matches as well. The best 5 shot group ever shot at one mile was right at 7 inches and was shot by a man named Ed Kenzalcalsky, probably not spelled right. But in the heavy gun class benchrest format we get to shoot sighters at a spot next to the paper target first bracketing the wind and then go for group and score firing
10 shots with no feedback from then on out. It is a totally differing format and has different requirements so I really don't see someone bringing a heavy gun or rail gun to these matches for one main reason which would be multiple targets and with first shot hits so a light ,very movable set up should show to be more viable for this particular format. With this new longer range tactical format i can see the skills are way up beyond just having a very accurate rifle ,with calculation skills added and long flight times creating the need for more predictive wind reading. I think it is still very specialized format and will prove out the right equipment eventually.And I am pretty sure you will not see many McMillan Beast stocks on the PSR circuit. But I do understand a standard must be initially set up as you spoke of.

 

[steve123]

I tend to favor the higher hit percentage mentality!

These are my thoughts for the future of the sport.

We're talking ELR or ULR here with different winds on the way to the target that affect the vertical and horizontal, not to mention the extreme spreads in velocity, the angle the projectile comes in at, as well as the projectile transitioning into subsonic, all affecting the precision compared to shooting at normal distances. So rifles that shoot well under 1 moa at the closer distances but not so much at the farther distances, before any wind is included into the equation. What is it, like nearly a 40" difference in vertical with a 10 fps extreme spread at 3000 yards???

Travel expenses, time spent away, big money on equipment, it all adds up, to both get to and shoot the match. Basically a discouraging sliding scale of, Damn I spent this much to do this vs okay that was worth doing and doing it again.

Imagine if it's big winds and everyone is trying for that 1 moa steel at 2500Y. What a waste, right?!

Then to what end for the enjoyment of the participants, just to shoot a small number of shots and miss a bunch, no way I'm coming to something like that and I'm quite sure most feel the same way.

Making the best sense of it, the steel should get bigger and wider the farther away it is. Maybe add a 1/4 moa for each 500Y???, I don't know, what I do know is I have more fun with high hit percentages and as long as there's little chance of a perfect score it's still plenty challenging.

As far as distance, say 3000+ yards, I'm taking a guess here, to a point there's as much luck to hitting a small target that far away as there is any skill involved.

Sure would be nice if all participants could shoot at the same time in the same conditions. I doubt there's answer for this but I watched a 1000 yard world benchrest record shot/3.9"/10 shot group, in perfect conditions and when I got to the line an hour later there was a 2.5 foot of horizontal to account for.

IMO, there needs to be a professional division separating the normal guys from having to compete with the best shooters in the world using the best high dollar gear, as well as cartridge class divisions.

 

[TripleBull]

Travel expenses, time spent away, big money on equipment, it all adds up, to both get to and shoot the match. Basically a discouraging sliding scale of, Damn I spent this much to do this vs okay that was worth doing and doing it again.

I follow the bulk of what you are saying but if ELR/ULR is the thing you want to do, you will either need to live near the key events or travel. The money and inconvenience is just the pay you have to do if you want to play. It's a personal choice.

If there was a vote, I would go for 1 MOA vertical and a sliding scale for increasing width vs distance - within reason. Increasing both with distance is no problem for me either, but it seems logical that horizontal will be the limiter as distance increases. One thing you can do is work within the known weather patterns for the locale. For example, Ko2M could be shot at the time of day and year where wind is typically mellow. For the ELR Central, which apparently will be tied to SHOT, there may be less flexibility, maybe start at the break of dawn?

 

[steve123]

I follow the bulk of what you are saying but if ELR/ULR is the thing you want to do, you will either need to live near the key events or travel. The money and inconvenience is just the pay you have to do if you want to play. It's a personal choice.

If there was a vote, I would go for 1 MOA vertical and a sliding scale for increasing width vs distance - within reason. Increasing both with distance is no problem for me either, but it seems logical that horizontal will be the limiter as distance increases. One thing you can do is work within the known weather patterns for the locale. For example, Ko2M could be shot at the time of day and year where wind is typically mellow. For the ELR Central, which apparently will be tied to SHOT, there may be less flexibility, maybe start at the break of dawn?

What I meant was, I don't mind spending the money if I'm having a good time - high hit percentage. That's what it's all about to me. I've been to matches with what I consider low hit percentages, they make me feel bad and wouldn't spend the money again, well I didn't. By the looks of everyone else's faces, they weren't having fun either. I'm even a decent shot.

This is a funny example here in the ELR forum but I like Field Target air rifle matches because hardly a perfect score is shot but often a 38 or 39 out of 40 is turned in if the conditions are nice. Even if it's windy you stand a good chance of getting above 30. You hit most of the steel, you feel good.

Or the SRM match in NM is another example. 58's and 59's are shot if the conditions are nice but 60/60 is about impossible. I didn't win or even get into the top 5 but I had a great time with a low 50's.

The AZPRC used to have a 60-75% hit ratio for the better shooters, I had always wished for bigger steel, and a higher hit percentage, even though I won the series a few times. When the wind came up, it was a bitch!

 

[damoncali]

My thoughts, for what they're worth (not much):

There will be multiple formats, I think. just as high power, benchrest, and PRS are appealing for different reasons and to different people, the same will be true of ELR. Range alone doesn't dictate how or why people shoot. There is some interest in a known distance paper target matches being organized by Alex Wheeler over at accurate shooter for 2000 yard group or score. Not exactly benchrest, but not "practical" either. Just a different take. I like the idea, personally, and would probably shoot it regularly if it were available.

I'm not a fan of the keep shooting 'til you're out format. I'd rather show up and know that I'm going to put x number of rounds down range (say 40-80, depending on the rifle).

I don't give a rats ass about world records. To each his own, I guess.

My biggest concerns, and what keeps me out of ELR as a competitive thing are 1) availability of ranges, and the 2) the cost of the equipment. I can't justify a rifle I have to drive 12-24 hours to shoot once a year, and neither do I particularly want to invest in high end range finders, and whatever it is that a solid .375 costs. So in a counter intuitive sort of way, I think I'd have as much or more fun with "ELR" in .223 or .308 at an easier to find range (say, 1500-2000 yards) than the latest $20k, .375, depleted uranium cannon at 2+ miles.

 

[_Windrider_]

My thoughts, for what they're worth (not much):

There will be multiple formats, I think. just as high power, benchrest, and PRS are appealing for different reasons and to different people, the same will be true of ELR. Range alone doesn't dictate how or why people shoot. There is some interest in a known distance paper target matches being organized by Alex Wheeler over at accurate shooter for 2000 yard group or score. Not exactly benchrest, but not "practical" either. Just a different take. I like the idea, personally, and would probably shoot it regularly if it were available.

I'm not a fan of the keep shooting 'til you're out format. I'd rather show up and know that I'm going to put x number of rounds down range (say 40-80, depending on the rifle).

I don't give a rats ass about world records. To each his own, I guess.

My biggest concerns, and what keeps me out of ELR as a competitive thing are 1) availability of ranges, and the 2) the cost of the equipment. I can't justify a rifle I have to drive 12-24 hours to shoot once a year, and neither do I particularly want to invest in high end range finders, and whatever it is that a solid .375 costs. So in a counter intuitive sort of way, I think I'd have as much or more fun with "ELR" in .223 or .308 at an easier to find range (say, 1500-2000 yards) than the latest $20k, .375, depleted uranium cannon at 2+ miles.

I agree but we need people doing ELR/ULR to push the boundaries. Their experience will benefit the entire sport. It’s not for me but I love to see it happening.

 

[URSA Facilitator]

Interesting discussion.

An URSA perspective/introduction…...

[Just so I get my pet peeve out of the way up front, ELRC has already defined ELR, “ELR is defined as 1500+ yards” (https://elrcentral.com/elr-matches/). I have no grief with that (a lot of discussion went into getting to that number and I don’t think it favors anyone/anything in particular). That noted, I do have a problem with “ULR”, presumably “unlimited long range” – isn’t “long” well enough captured in “unlimited”? So, in my book its either ELR and/or UR (unlimited range), not ULR. Thus URSA is the Unlimited Range Shooters Association.] Carrying on…...

Some of you may have stopped by the ELRC “ELR Matches” page recently and noted that the “URSA 3000 Yard Challenge (for 2018)” event is now listed, right along with the ELRC World Record Event and Ko2M. The intro to the event listing includes this statement, “As long as more than 1/2 of the targets are located beyond 1500 yards, the match is considered to be an ‘ELR’ Match.” Say hey, great! URSA qualifies. Why is that important to me (personally, and speaking for URSA)? Because the CONTROLLING element in the ELR/UR shooting discipline is DISTANCE – not whether the “shooter” is one-person or a 20-person “team”, not whether the firearm used is a 15 ounce carry pistol or a one ton “contraption” that requires a crane to position it for firing, and not whether the “barrel” is cold, lukewarm, or red hot. I consider this VERY significant…its called inclusion, with laser focus on distance.

Those that have been mildly interested in what URSA is have found, among other things, that, #1, we start shooting at 2000 yards, #2, we have no restriction on “firearm” other than it is locally legal, #3, we have no restriction of “how” the shooter fields his/her firearm (we’ve had folks shoot out of the back of SUVs and pickup trucks…until they found those were not stable platforms), and, #4, “practice” (same targets as for “record) is an integral component of each event. We also do NOT charge any fees, have no “outside money” involved, and, to date, have found no reason to exclude anyone. We are also NOT what I describe ELRC and Ko2M to be, “tactical ELR” – entities that virtually, explicitly acknowledge themselves to be “sniper/military/LE shooter-focused”. And, an important BTW, we have no “records”…we focus on “demonstrated shooter achievement”, starting at 5 targets shot, each with at least 5 hits in 10 consecutive shots, at 2000 yards (Novice) and going up to 5 targets shot, each with at least 8 hits in 10 consecutive shots, at 3500 yards (Grand Master Shooter). After 31 months, we have 4 (four) Novice shooters and are getting VERY close to having our first “Shooter” level achievement target shot (6 in 10 at 2500 yards). We also have 6 shooters qualified for the 2018 “URSA 3000 Yard Challenge”.

So now you know a bit about how URSA fits into ELR/UR. All our shooting is currently done in northern California mountains and southern California desert. We invite those interested to join us. More info at www.unlimitedrange.org – in particular, see the Operations, News, and Gallery pages. We also invite those that might be interested in setting up an URSA presence in other areas in the US, and beyond, to contact me at [email protected]. Thanks for the read.

 

[_Windrider_]

Interesting discussion.

An URSA perspective/introduction…...

[Just so I get my pet peeve out of the way up front, ELRC has already defined ELR, “ELR is defined as 1500+ yards” (https://elrcentral.com/elr-matches/). I have no grief with that (a lot of discussion went into getting to that number and I don’t think it favors anyone/anything in particular). That noted, I do have a problem with “ULR”, presumably “unlimited long range” – isn’t “long” well enough captured in “unlimited”? So, in my book its either ELR and/or UR (unlimited range), not ULR. Thus URSA is the Unlimited Range Shooters Association.] Carrying on…...

Some of you may have stopped by the ELRC “ELR Matches” page recently and noted that the “URSA 3000 Yard Challenge (for 2018)” event is now listed, right along with the ELRC World Record Event and Ko2M. The intro to the event listing includes this statement, “As long as more than 1/2 of the targets are located beyond 1500 yards, the match is considered to be an ‘ELR’ Match.” Say hey, great! URSA qualifies. Why is that important to me (personally, and speaking for URSA)? Because the CONTROLLING element in the ELR/UR shooting discipline is DISTANCE – not whether the “shooter” is one-person or a 20-person “team”, not whether the firearm used is a 15 ounce carry pistol or a one ton “contraption” that requires a crane to position it for firing, and not whether the “barrel” is cold, lukewarm, or red hot. I consider this VERY significant…its called inclusion, with laser focus on distance.

Those that have been mildly interested in what URSA is have found, among other things, that, #1, we start shooting at 2000 yards, #2, we have no restriction on “firearm” other than it is locally legal, #3, we have no restriction of “how” the shooter fields his/her firearm (we’ve had folks shoot out of the back of SUVs and pickup trucks…until they found those were not stable platforms), and, #4, “practice” (same targets as for “record) is an integral component of each event. We also do NOT charge any fees, have no “outside money” involved, and, to date, have found no reason to exclude anyone. We are also NOT what I describe ELRC and Ko2M to be, “tactical ELR” – entities that virtually, explicitly acknowledge themselves to be “sniper/military/LE shooter-focused”. And, an important BTW, we have no “records”…we focus on “demonstrated shooter achievement”, starting at 5 targets shot, each with at least 5 hits in 10 consecutive shots, at 2000 yards (Novice) and going up to 5 targets shot, each with at least 8 hits in 10 consecutive shots, at 3500 yards (Grand Master Shooter). After 31 months, we have 4 (four) Novice shooters and are getting VERY close to having our first “Shooter” level achievement target shot (6 in 10 at 2500 yards). We also have 6 shooters qualified for the 2018 “URSA 3000 Yard Challenge”.

So now you know a bit about how URSA fits into ELR/UR. All our shooting is currently done in northern California mountains and southern California desert. We invite those interested to join us. More info at www.unlimitedrange.org – in particular, see the Operations, News, and Gallery pages. We also invite those that might be interested in setting up an URSA presence in other areas in the US, and beyond, to contact me at [email protected]. Thanks for the read.

My gun is black and scary, is it allowed in CA?

 

[TripleBull]

What I meant was, I don't mind spending the money if I'm having a good time - high hit percentage. That's what it's all about to me. I've been to matches with what I consider low hit percentages, they make me feel bad and wouldn't spend the money again, well I didn't. By the looks of everyone else's faces, they weren't having fun either. I'm even a decent shot.

Gotcha. I have not shot competitively since I was a kid, so I no longer have a clearly defined success threshold. I've had a couple of bummer ELR days, but that was more about how the shooting itself felt/looked* than the actual result, probably since we shoot ELR at a spot that is typically windy as fuck.

*: (meaning if I could or could not get into that mental/physical space where I gave the gun a decent chance to do its thing)

 

[LastShot300]

My thoughts, for what they're worth (not much):

There will be multiple formats, I think. just as high power, benchrest, and PRS are appealing for different reasons and to different people, the same will be true of ELR. Range alone doesn't dictate how or why people shoot. There is some interest in a known distance paper target matches being organized by Alex Wheeler over at accurate shooter for 2000 yard group or score. Not exactly benchrest, but not "practical" either. Just a different take. I like the idea, personally, and would probably shoot it regularly if it were available.

I'm not a fan of the keep shooting 'til you're out format. I'd rather show up and know that I'm going to put x number of rounds down range (say 40-80, depending on the rifle).

I don't give a rats ass about world records. To each his own, I guess.

My biggest concerns, and what keeps me out of ELR as a competitive thing are 1) availability of ranges, and the 2) the cost of the equipment. I can't justify a rifle I have to drive 12-24 hours to shoot once a year, and neither do I particularly want to invest in high end range finders, and whatever it is that a solid .375 costs. So in a counter intuitive sort of way, I think I'd have as much or more fun with "ELR" in .223 or .308 at an easier to find range (say, 1500-2000 yards) than the latest $20k, .375, depleted uranium cannon at 2+ miles.

All good and valid points. You got my vote FWIW.

 

[Hoffer]

All good and valid points. You got my vote FWIW.

So perhaps instead of ELR be laser focused on ultimate distance it may just spread into many other forms of competition already being shot today. PRS, benchrest and new formats not even thought of yet.

I am very happy this thread has not gone the way most threads do. Good crowd!