Excess bullet drop, how do I fix it?

[Casey_H]

Bit of a disclaimer: I'm new to the forum and a novice shooter, just here trying to learn something. I'm using an R700 VTR barreled action in a MPA chassis. 308 w/ 20" barrel shooting Federal 168smk's at my local range (50-200yrds).

On to my issue... My groups are consistent and decent - around 1" at 100 and 2" at 200 (I get it, not great but at my level it's the best I can do) - but I'm dialing 4 MOA to hit my 200yrd target.

At first I thought my lower-end Vortex scope was at fault but even holding over in my reticle from my 100yrd zero I'm still at a whopping 4 MOA at 200. Something's not right here.

Bit of extra info. I bought the barreled action used and have not done any kind of hardcore barrel cleaning. Basically just followed Frank's cleaning outline on the EDS podcast after every 100 rounds or so. I also don't have access to a chronograph so if my muzzle velocity is in the shitter I won't really know. All chassis and action hardware torqued to spec.

Anyway any insight would be helpful. I've heard less than stellar things about the VTR's triangular barrel and factory rem barrels in general. Wondering if I should try to save this thing somehow or just get rid of it. Thanks

 

[EXSOCAL]

Are you asking why your bullets are impacting 4 MOA lower at 200 yards?? Well.... gravity.

Read up on external ballistics in your free time. It will shed some light on what happens to your bullet as it travels down range. I just checked my dope chart for 168 FGMM and I’m roughly 3.6 MOA drop at 200 so your experience is not out of the realm of possibility. 308 is a good round but it’s pretty dumpy as far as trajectory goes, especially with the 168 grain ammo.

 

[ShtrRdy]

Are you asking why your bullets are impacting 4 MOA lower at 200 yards?? Well.... gravity.

Read up on external ballistics in your free time. It will shed some light on what happens to your bullet as it travels down range. I just checked my dope chart for 168 FGMM and I’m roughly 3.6 MOA drop at 200 so your experience is not out of the realm of possibility. 308 is a good round but it’s pretty dumpy as far as trajectory goes, especially with the 168 grain ammo.

I looked at my ballistic program for my .308 Win, and using FGMM 168 gr SMK, and come up with 0.5 mil, ( 1.72 moa ), It says my drop at 200 yds should be 3.4" . I'm using a 24" barrel and usually shoot at 5400'. Would you mind checking your ballistic program output again?

 

[Casey_H]

Are you asking why your bullets are impacting 4 MOA lower at 200 yards?? Well.... gravity.

Read up on external ballistics in your free time. It will shed some light on what happens to your bullet as it travels down range. I just checked my dope chart for 168 FGMM and I’m roughly 3.6 MOA drop at 200 so your experience is not out of the realm of possibility. 308 is a good round but it’s pretty dumpy as far as trajectory goes, especially with the 168 grain ammo.

Ah. My lack of experience and lack of a chronograph had me toying with ballistic calculators to get a rough idea of where I should be. Strelok and Hornady both said I should be at 1.75-2 MOA at 200 yards... Maybe I accidentally input something incorrectly.

Thanks, I'll look into it and try to figure out what I did wrong. Buying that barreled action used with no history on it I was wondering if I had a velocity issue.

 

[EXSOCAL]

I looked at my ballistic program for my .308 Win, and using FGMM 168 gr SMK, and come up with 0.5 mil, ( 1.72 moa ), It says my drop at 200 yds should be 3.4" . I'm using a 24" barrel and usually shoot at 5400'. Would you mind checking your ballistic program output again?

Good catch. I did the same thing as you and did a quick conversion from my mil dope. With a 20” barrel I’m at 3.6” of drop at 200 (sea level, 2550 FPS ), so that’s roughly 1.8 MOA. My bad!

 

[Casey_H]

I looked at my ballistic program for my .308 Win, and using FGMM 168 gr SMK, and come up with 0.5 mil, ( 1.72 moa ), It says my drop at 200 yds should be 3.4" . I'm using a 24" barrel and usually shoot at 5400'. Would you mind checking your ballistic program output again?

This is off my Strelok Pro. Without a chrono I'm just inputting BC and velocity off the bof of ammo. Depending on the weather inputs I throw in I'm at 1.75-2 MOA by the calculators. I'm at 4. I understand my numbers aren't quite right, but I'm not sure why I'm soooo far off...

 

[ShtrRdy]

Your drop at 100 yds should read 0". There should be somewhere to enter at what distance you want to zero the weapon system.

Oops, I spaced out you're having to dial 4 moa. Humm.....

You are zero'd at 100 yds, yes?

 

[Casey_H]

I

You drop at 100 yes should read 0". There should be somewhere to enter at what distance you want to zero the weapon system.

I believe the "absolute drop" on the chart is referring to bullet from from the muzzle to each distance. It's shows 0 MOA of elevation at 100yrds which is where I zero'd. But the "up adjustment" shows 1.8 at 200yrds (Hornady said similar). I have to dial 4MOA or holdover 4 in my reticle to hit my 200yrd...

 

[ShtrRdy]

If you were to enter different muzzle velocity and re-run the calculator, approximately what muzzle velocity would you have to enter to have the calculator ask for 4 moa at 200 yds?

What kind of scope are you using?

 

[Casey_H]

If you were to enter different muzzle velocity and re-run the calculator, approximately what muzzle velocity would you have to enter to have the calculator ask for 4 moa at 200 yds?

What kind of scope are you using?

I'm using a Vortex Diamondback Tactical 6x24x50 FFP with an EBR-2C reticle. If I change the muzzle velocity from what's on the ammo box (2650) wayyyy down to 2000 fps I get 3.95 MOA of adjustment. At first I thought it was a scope tracking issue, so I dialed back to my 100 yes zero and held over in my reticle. Still 4 MOA to hit my 200yrd target. Also I'm using 3" Birchwood Casey shootnsee stickers on standard printer paper.

 

[Casey_H]

Even if my barrel had a (extreme) velocity issue, how am I still getting decent groups at both 100 and 200yrds? Granted, like I said in my first post, I shoot 1" at 100 and 2" at 200. With my inexperience I'm not even sure my factory 20" barrel can do better than that...

 

[clcustom1911]

Are you certain the "200" yard target is in fact 200 yards away?

 

[Casey_H]

Are you certain the "200" yard target is in fact 200 yards away?

I mean it's a public range... If it's not exactly 200 it's not far off

 

[clcustom1911]

Well, you could try another brand of ammo to see how it does in your rifle. I ran the 168 SMK through my ballistic calc's and had the same extreme low velocity issue which had already been talked about here.

 

[Casey_H]

Well, you could try another brand of ammo to see how it does in your rifle. I ran the 168 SMK through my ballistic calc's and had the same extreme low velocity issue which had already been talked about here.

I have not tried different ammo per session, but this issue isn't stepping from one box of ammo. This has been multiple boxes from multiple batches over the last 2-ish months. I can't imagine that many batches of ammo being down 600+ fps would make it past QC...

I'm wondering if I have a barrel issue.

 

[Casey_H]

If it is a barrel issue, is there anything I can do? Hardcore deep-clean, throw it in the trash?

If it isn't fixable and I have to get rid of it I'm going 6.5 Creedmoor

 

[clcustom1911]

If it is a barrel issue, is there anything I can do? Hardcore deep-clean, throw it in the trash?

If it isn't fixable and I have to get rid of it I'm going 6.5 Creedmoor

You could do a ridiculous deep clean, strip all carbon and copper out and see how that goes. Is your barrel used? How many rounds have been run through it?

I recently switched to Proof Research stainless for my short action bolt gun and it is amazing.

 

[Casey_H]

This was my first ever rifle. Yeah I'm getting in the game late ?. I was hoping to get all the training I could out of this barreled action while I saved up for the better stuff. Rn I'm thinking Bighorn Origin with a 24" 6.5 CM barrel. When that transition happened I wanted to put this 308 barreled action back into the original stock and use it as my deer rifle. But if my setup isn't worth saving I can get an R700 6.5 barreled action with a threaded muzzle for $600 to train on.

 

[Casey_H]

You could do a ridiculous deep clean, strip all carbon and copper out and see how that goes. Is your barrel used? How many rounds have been run through it?

I recently switched to Proof Research stainless for my short action bolt gun and it is amazing.

Yes it is used. Most everything I have is used. Ballin on a budget here lol. The only things I've bought new are my scope and rings. Barreled action used, MPA chassis used, Triggertech Special used, and a cheap bipod which I machined (I work at a machine shop) to essentially be solid aka no tilt/cant, leveled. I have no idea how many rounds have been down my barrel before I bought it.

 

[CMH]

What BC are you using?

 

[Casey_H]

What BC are you using?

Like I said earlier. Just what's on the box since I don't have access to a chrono. 2650 fps and .462 BC. But no (minor) velocity or BC change will do what I'm seeing on target

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Are there actually 16 clicks (4 moa) between your 100 and 200 yard zero? Stupid question, but it has to be asked to help rule out a scope issue.

 

[Casey_H]

Are there actually 16 clicks (4 moa) between your 100 and 200 yard zero? Stupid question, but it has to be asked to help rule out a scope issue.

Yes. As I said before I ruled out a scope issue by dialing back to my 100 yrd zero and and holding over in my reticle and had the same result

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Yes. As I said before I ruled out a scope issue by dialing back to my 100 yrd zero and and holding over in my reticle and had the same result

Sorry I missed that part.

 

[seansmd]

You said it was used, did you mention how many rounds through the barrel, sorry if I missed it?

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

Sure you’re not shooting at the 300 yard target?

What’s your dope for longer distances?

If you’re truly zeroed at 100 it’d take 2000 FPS at the muzzle to come up with 4 moa drop at 200 yards.

 

[Rerun7]

Honestly, you can guess at it from now until the end of time and never figure it out. You need to start ruling out variables. First things I would do is use a rangefinder on your target to verify distance and get a chrono to verify MV.

Once you have more information you can start trouble shooting the actual problem. Until then you are just guessing at what the problem is.

 

[Kadams1563]

Where is your range. Hell we can probably see on google maps that you target ranges are wrong.

This has to be an operator error and not a gun or scope error.

My guess is range of target is wrong.

 

[Long Range 338]

Can you post the inputs page? Perhaps there is something there to find

 

[Cofercr]

Validate your scope height. Your program data seems off too. 11 in of drop at 200 yards is off by 6 to seven inches. I understand one is actual and another is program. Not familiar with your scope but you sure the reticle and adjustments are both the same. Mil to mil or MOA to MOA.

 

[Cofercr]

I

I believe the "absolute drop" on the chart is referring to bullet from from the muzzle to each distance. It's shows 0 MOA of elevation at 100yrds which is where I zero'd. But the "up adjustment" shows 1.8 at 200yrds (Hornady said similar). I have to dial 4MOA or holdover 4 in my reticle to hit my 200yrd...

If you zero at 100 there should be no inch drop at 100.

 

[Casey_H]

Sure you’re not shooting at the 300 yard target?

What’s your dope for longer distances?

If you’re truly zeroed at 100 it’d take 2000 FPS at the muzzle to come up with 4 moa drop at 200 yards.

My range only goes to 200. And yes we've already covered the 2000fps muzzle velocity. Still shooting tight groups though.

 

[Casey_H]

Where is your range. Hell we can probably see on google maps that you target ranges are wrong.

This has to be an operator error and not a gun or scope error.

My guess is range of target is wrong.

Well seeing as it's a public range they use for state and local club matches, and it's been there for 20+ years, I kinda doubt the range is off...

 

[Cm308]

Vortex not tracking true no surprise there. Set up a target at 100 with lines every inch and dial your scope just to see what it's actually adjusting.
My 200 yard dope with 308 is 1.75 moa so yours is about double.

 

[Cm308]

300 yd should put you about 4- 4.5 moa so maybe your not shooting 200?

 

[Casey_H]

300 yd should put you about 4- 4.5 moa so maybe your not shooting 200?

As I've already said I ruled out scope tracking my going back to my 100yrd zero and doing reticle holding over. Still at 4 MOA. And the range is a public one there for 20+ years and is used for state and local benchrest and .22 matches. I'm going with velocity issue in the barrel. I bought the barreled action used and have only done minor cleanings so far. Gonna get deeper into it this week. If I can't resolve the issue I'll just go by another $500 factory barreled action.

 

[D1gger]

Could you post a screenshot of your rifle/ammo setup from Strelock? Maybe there is something there that would help us

 

[Casey_H]

Posting for @D1gger. Whether my data is off or not is irrelevant because the purpose of the post isn't for my software, but for what I'm actually seeing on target. I should be at 1.75 MOA of adjustment from my 100yrd zero to hit 200. I'm at 4 MOA (adjusting or holding over)

 

[Casey_H]

My other Remington 700 308 with a standard 20" round barrel and no brake is at 1.75. this VTR with their triangular barrel and built-in brake is a 4.0.

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

As I've already said I ruled out scope tracking my going back to my 100yrd zero and doing reticle holding over. Still at 4 MOA. And the range is a public one there for 20+ years and is used for state and local benchrest and .22 matches. I'm going with velocity issue in the barrel. I bought the barreled action used and have only done minor cleanings so far. Gonna get deeper into it this week. If I can't resolve the issue I'll just go by another $500 factory barreled action.

The only way to confirm is to use a chrono or dope it out further. These are basic unknowns that need to be known. I’d buy a 150$ magneto speed before I bought a new barreled action.... especially a factory Remington barreled action

 

[Casey_H]

The only way to confirm is to use a chrono or dope it out further. These are basic unknowns that need to be known. I’d buy a 150$ magneto speed before I bought a new barreled action.... especially a factory Remington barreled action

I've never had a chrono but I will definitely look into it. What's the difference between the Sporter and say the V3?

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

Sporter is a no go for suppressors and the v3 has an easier to use interface from what I under stand. Is there anyone local with a chrono or do you have access to a longer range?

 

[Long Range 338]

Posting for @D1gger. Whether my data is off or not is irrelevant because the purpose of the post isn't for my software, but for what I'm actually seeing on target. I should be at 1.75 MOA of adjustment from my 100yrd zero to hit 200. I'm at 4 MOA (adjusting or holding over)View attachment 7070139

Not necessarily, as this could be a setup issue. Anything is possible but would think a completely worn out barrel that was smooth bore would shoot faster than 2000fps... What are the chances you are not actually zeroed at 100 (measured and verified) and not shooting at 200 (measured and verified)?

 

[DrainTheSwamp]

Not necessarily, as this could be a setup issue. Anything is possible but would think a completely worn out barrel that was smooth bore would shoot faster than 2000fps... What are the chances you are not actually zeroed at 100 (measured and verified) and not shooting at 200 (measured and verified)?

Some verified speed and distance numbers would sure clear up a lot of guessing.

 

[Casey_H]

Speed numbers I can work on. I don't have a chrono but I may be able to get access to one. For the range itself, its Deitz gun range in New Braunfels TX. Been there for 20+ years and is used for club and state matches so I seriously doubt the ranges are off. I mean I guess anything is possible but it's highly unlikely

 

[Casey_H]

There's a private club down the road with a range out to 600yrds but I'm not a member yet.

 

[Maxduty]

Yeah, it's 200 yards. So his range is correct.

 

[SoCal326]

Any chance your parallax isn't set correctly and you drastically change your position on the rifle between 100 and 200 yards? You said you should need about 1.75MOA but actually need 4MOA, so when you dial the 1.75 you end up hitting 4.5" low? Maybe next time you're at the range put you're rifle on bags and aim it at the target. then without touching the rifle, look through the scope and move your head around. Do the cross hairs move?


When I was considering if you could be off by that much I came across this video where the guy is playing with his parallax and set incorrectly he saw 4" of parallax at 100Y so this sounds like a plausible explanation to me. You did say you're getting good groups though. My explanation assumes you're incorrectly lined up on the scope and that you're doing it consistently. Seems unlikely your groups would be good if this was the case but worth looking at. What distance is your parallax set at? Do you change it between 100 and 200 yards?

Did you correctly focus your ocular like this article explains?
https://www.wikihow.com/Use-Adjustable-Objective-Rifle-Scopes

have a look at this video

 

[D1gger]

Thanks for the screenshot. I just wanted to verify you didn't do what a friend did and say his adjustments were .025 and not .250.
if you are shooting MOA groups, I just can't think that the barrel is shot out. Good luck

 

[j-huskey]

So....
More than likely, the problem is, the rifle is just what it is, a slow barrel, and it will never be anything else.

You already know you shoot the rifle moa. You know the rifle shoots moa. You know the ammo shoots moa.

No one here has yet said, mine did that too, which yours is doing, off the charts results.
In 25 years of teaching LE snipers, I have seen "the behavior" with several models of Remingtons, and FGM 168 ammo. I had the same model rifle you describe and had it in an Accuracy Int. chassis.
I shot this rifle in a match at Tac-pro in stephensville, TX, using fgm168, and somewhere in the hide archives are pictures from that match, and at one time, the match results were posted on the hide, but, I digress.

First off, the box velocity information is based off a 26" test barrel. Very few barrels shoot what the box says...
A 20" factory remington barrel will never shoot the same velocity as a 26, it WILL BE SLOWER... mine definitely was. The only way you will ever know for sure is chrono. Until you do, all is conjecture. Might as well be voodoo or witchcraft.

Programs say should be 1.75 moa at 200, mine was 2.5 on a known scope. Others that came through police training were from 2.0 to 3.5, all based on velocity we proved with a chrono.

After Tac-pro, I did not own that rifle long. It did the same behavior here in Alabama (my home), in Texas, in Mississippi, and West Va, at matches I attended with it.
It did the same with several different scopes. It had corresponding velocity drops and extreme data/dope changes with fgm 168 and 175, m118 173, m118lr 175, and mil match m852 168. It proved itself. Was what it was.

My lot of fgm 168 chronoed 2640 in my built 26" rifle, and 2350 in the 20". For whatever voodoo, my elevation btw 100 and 200 was 2.5 moa....

There have been 1/4 moa + differences created by.
a. Used scope, inaccurate tracking.
b. Poor scope, inaccurate tracking.
c. Scope height
d. Scope angle, 0 moa base to 40 moa base.

Add all the potential contributors together and the 3.5 moa we saw in one rifle, not a surprise.

Your information matches some of ours in our experience with those rifles.

All these posters saying try this try that, buy this buy that, no.....

First, at the NB range, find the oldest range master and as briefly as possible, explain the problem, and ask if there is a senior range member they know, willing to help you try to find answers. More than likely there is. And more than likely, that member owns a chrono....

Otherwise, with a good nerve pill, and suicide ideations, go to the BEAR PIT, and start a post, NEED HELP FROM A NEW BRAUNFELDS AREA SHOOTER.

As absolutely briefly as possible, explain the problem, rifle x, extreme dope, help please, refer them to this posting.

If no NB shooter responds, ignore the bullshit. Do not respond to anything there that does not get you a helping hand from that area who will meet you at the NB range.

If the bullshit gets too deep in the pit, historically it does, delete your topic and wisely flee the pit....
Bearpit jackassery, is known far and wide. There are illiterate Chinese peasants from outer Mongolia, living in caves, in the great wall, who have never owned shoes or ate food not killed with their own hands, who know bear pit insane stories... they fear the hide bear pit more than they fear the CHI-COM Army and secret police who are trying to kill them...

Eventually someone in your area will surface here, and offer you help. If you were here in Alabama, we would gladly help you, and in an 8 hour day, answer all your questions regarding that rifle, scope, and ammo problems. Somebody, a shooter, near you is there. Start with the range master.

Let us know the results.

Best to you.