Excessive bullet seating force despite using mandrel expander

[machjett]

I'm having issues with excessive bullet seating force. I loaded up some virgin Lapua 300wm brass with a low charge just to fireform. Everything went smoothly during this load.
Using the same components I am getting issues seating with the once fired Lapua brass.
I wet tumbled with ss.
Full length resize w/.002" shoulder bump and expander ball.
Used a 21st century neck mandrel (.307"). I also used this with my first firing and no seating issues for that batch.
Even after the mandrel the force to seat a bullet is crazy on the K&M arbor press with a Wilson die
I ran my borescope into the brass to see if there were burrs or anything weird but it looked clean.
It doesn't make any sense to me that I hit it with an expander ball and mandrel and the bullet still won't seat without excessive force.

Lapua brass 300wm once fired with Hornady 212 eldx. Thanks for any input friends.

 

[acourvil]

Are you lubing the necks? Wet tumbling gets the brass very clean, you need lube.

 

[DIBBS]

What's the chamfer like inside the case mouths?

 

[918v]

Standard FL dies harden the neck a lot. Hard necks grab on to the bullet more than soft necks at the same neck tension. The combination of this with lack of lube increased your seating effort.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I’d remove the expander ball if using a mandrel.

Regardless, this issue is combination of things above. Not Lube, cleaned completely , sized, etc

 

[machjett]

I’d remove the expander ball if using a mandrel.

Regardless, this issue is combination of things above. Not Lube, cleaned completely , sized, etc

Thank you

 

[machjett]

Standard FL dies harden the neck a lot. Hard necks grab on to the bullet more than soft necks at the same neck tension. The combination of this with lack of lube increased your seating effort.

Thank you

 

[Haney]

What is the inside diameter of the neck after running the mandrel in ?

 

[Haney]

Standard FL dies harden the neck a lot. Hard necks grab on to the bullet more than soft necks at the same neck tension. The combination of this with lack of lube increased your seating effort.

Hard necks do not grab brass . Hard necks resist sizing .

 

[Oryx]

Have a look at the outside neck diameter of the NEW bras vs once fired and look at the difference. If the expander ball is in the die (or bushing) it will leave it at a finished dimension that will be influenced by the brass condition (spring back). If you remove the expander ball from the die it will squeeze the neck to a smaller dimension that you would then have to use a mandrel to resize. The size of your mandrel or expander is going to determine the amount of "interference" you are going to get between the bullet and the inside of the case mouth (interference fit). The condition of the brass spring back will determine how well the bullet will be held in place.

Do the same for the once fired from your chamber vs your resized once fired and it will tell you how well your dies matches your chamber ( might take a few firings for brass to fully form in your chamber).

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Hard necks do not grab brass . Hard necks resist sizing .

A bullet is the same as a mandrel.

You are effectively sizing a neck when you seat a bullet. So, “grab” is just semantics, but if the neck is hard enough to resist sizing significantly, then it’s enough to resist a bullet.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

A bullet is the same as a mandrel.

You are effectively sizing a neck when you seat a bullet. So, “grab” is just semantics, but if the neck is hard enough to resist sizing significantly, then it’s enough to resist a bullet.

Can you get rid of the chi-coms ? I'm referring to the spam from China, not haney..Haney... this time

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Can you get rid of the chi-coms ? I'm referring to the spam from China, not haney..Haney... this time

I haven’t been a moderator for a few months. Try the report button.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

I haven’t been a moderator for a few months. Try the report button.

Oh ok. Yeah I reported it.

 

[Kra961]

I'm having issues with excessive bullet seating force. I loaded up some virgin Lapua 300wm brass with a low charge just to fireform. Everything went smoothly during this load.
Using the same components I am getting issues seating with the once fired Lapua brass.
I wet tumbled with ss.
Full length resize w/.002" shoulder bump and expander ball.
Used a 21st century neck mandrel (.307"). I also used this with my first firing and no seating issues for that batch.
Even after the mandrel the force to seat a bullet is crazy on the K&M arbor press with a Wilson die
I ran my borescope into the brass to see if there were burrs or anything weird but it looked clean.
It doesn't make any sense to me that I hit it with an expander ball and mandrel and the bullet still won't seat without excessive force.

Lapua brass 300wm once fired with Hornady 212 eldx. Thanks for any input friends.

I ran into an interesting issue like that today fully annealed the brass , fl sized the brass ran the brass through with a 21 century mandrel used imperial lube on the inside of the neck I went back and checked with a neck gauge to make sure it had resized the neck to .223 it hadn’t in fact I couldn’t even get the gauge into the neck I re-annealed the brass and gave it another go still nothing. So with nothing left to try I used graphite instead and it worked. I’m still shaking my head on that one. If anyone has run into the same issue maybe you can clue this idiot on the why.

 

[mbeavers1]

I ran into an interesting issue like that today fully annealed the brass , fl sized the brass ran the brass through with a 21 century mandrel used imperial lube on the inside of the neck I went back and checked with a neck gauge to make sure it had resized the neck to .223 it hadn’t in fact I couldn’t even get the gauge into the neck I re-annealed the brass and gave it another go still nothing. So with nothing left to try I used graphite instead and it worked. I’m still shaking my head on that one. If anyone has run into the same issue maybe you can clue this idiot on the why.

Are you sure you sure the mandrel you used was big enough to account for spring back? For my 22 dasher (.224 bullet) i use a .223 mandrel to end up with .002 neck tension. How are you measuring neck tension and have you verified that your neck tension is what you expect?

 

[Kra961]

That was the surprising thing the mandrel worked as expected after using the graphite, to measure the neck I’m using ballistic tools case mouth gauge, I don’t have any other tools at this point and like OP I was running into excessive seating pressure so I went the mandrel route and confirmed it with the gauge. .001 is pretty light but thought I would give it a try. Just wondering why on earth lube didn’t work but graphite does.

 

[Snuby642]

Was the lube cold?

Grafite don't care.

 

[Kra961]

Was the lube cold?

Grafite don't care.

Well that’s a thought 48 deg ish, wife said no to the kitchen table (-: so in the garage I go

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I ran into an interesting issue like that today fully annealed the brass , fl sized the brass ran the brass through with a 21 century mandrel used imperial lube on the inside of the neck I went back and checked with a neck gauge to make sure it had resized the neck to .223 it hadn’t in fact I couldn’t even get the gauge into the neck I re-annealed the brass and gave it another go still nothing. So with nothing left to try I used graphite instead and it worked. I’m still shaking my head on that one. If anyone has run into the same issue maybe you can clue this idiot on the why.

Either brush neck or clean brass after annealing. It can leave some scale inside when it heats up the carbon.

What size mandrel?

 

[Kra961]

Either brush neck or clean brass after annealing. It can leave some scale inside when it heats up the carbon.

What size mandrel?

In this instance .223, hadn’t thought about scale, new starline brass with factory residue. Running the Annie annealer 1.4 secs great little unit

 

[Snuby642]

I have used Imperial wax and it dont like cold. I would say that was too cold for it from my past experience.

You end up with too much on there and it's sticky not slick as say 80 + degrees. I found myself trying to warm up the room but just switched back to messy grafite.

 

[Kra961]

I have used Imperial wax and it dont like cold. I would say that was too cold for it from my past experience.

You end up with too much on there and it's sticky not slick as say 80 + degrees. I found myself trying to warm up the room but just switched back to messy grafite.

The garage this time of year is cold enough for two jackets Your right that graphite make a god awful mess if it gets away from you, was trying not to use it. As you can likely tell I’m a new to the reloading thing, but enjoying learning as I go even with the head shaking in puzzlement.

 

[Snuby642]

Luckily my wife is pretty amiable to reloading I have an area inside the house. She shoots my ammo as well.

But does not like it in the kitchen iether..
Maybe you could put togeather a mobile work station on say a rolling tool chest bottom and store it out of the way when not in use?

 

[Kra961]

LOL now there’s an idea, think she is still working on why I enjoy being in a cold garage “playing with my gadgets”

Luckily my wife is pretty amiable to reloading I have an area inside the house. She shoots my ammo as well.

But does not like it in the kitchen iether..
Maybe you could put togeather a mobile work station on say a rolling tool chest bottom and store it out of the way when not in use?

Luckily my wife is pretty amiable to reloading I have an area inside the house. She shoots my ammo as well.

But does not like it in the kitchen iether..
Maybe you could put togeather a mobile work station on say a rolling tool chest bottom and store it out of the way when not in use?

 

[Snuby642]

A small grafite mishap ends up like thing one and thing two In the cat and the hat.

Spreads like covid. Lol

 

[Kra961]

A small grafite mishap ends up like thing one and thing two In the cat and the hat.

Spreads like covid. Lol

WD-40 works great at cleaning it off of EVERYTHING, please don’t ask how I know.

 

[Snuby642]

I got the grafite kit that has the ceramic balls to distribute it.

Use caution and make sure you tap each case into the empty lid to remove any ball that might be in the case.

Never let children around that stuff. And keep plenty of paper towels around.

You get used to it, but sizing lube doesn't migrate all over the place.

North Texas, had to turn on air conditioning today in truck and house. Got to love it.

Thanks for the wd40 tip.

 

[Kra961]

I got the grafite kit that has the ceramic balls to distribute it.

Use caution and make sure you tap each case into the empty lid to remove any ball that might be in the case.

Never let children around that stuff. And keep plenty of paper towels around.

You get used to it, but sizing lube doesn't migrate all over the place.

North Texas, had to turn on air conditioning today in truck and house. Got to love it.

Yup,those little ceramic balls do a right fine job of distributing it alright.
We are looking at possibly retiring there, damn tired of the cold and rain just need some place warm, have a couple years yet to decide.

 

[Oryx]

I actually like the imperial wax when colder because it lessens the chance of getting too much lube. Easy to control the amount on the end of a swab.
For high volume work (like leaving an expander ball out and mandrel sizing, I'd also go with a carbide Mandrel - might be 4x more expensive but 10x less hassle.
Also, if you aren't in tune with how your brass its annealing, you may require a few different mandrel sizes to achieve your desired interference fit and tension. I found it works best to segregate brass into batches so all pieces start in similar condition, go through the the same process and same # firings .... I don't let them get mix up with other brass.

 

[Haney]

A bullet is the same as a mandrel.

You are effectively sizing a neck when you seat a bullet. So, “grab” is just semantics, but if the neck is hard enough to resist sizing significantly, then it’s enough to resist a bullet.

I am not the one that claimed hard brass "GRABS" brass. I am the one that stated that theory was bullshit.

Also, do you shoot mandrels in your rifles? C'mon man, bullet =mandrel .

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I am not the one that claimed hard brass "GRABS" brass. I am the one that stated that theory was bullshit.

Also, do you shoot mandrels in your rifles? C'mon man, bullet =mandrel .

Forgot you’re a troll. Albeit not a very good one. Carry on.

 

[Tokay444]

How much force?

 

[Tokay444]

I am not the one that claimed hard brass "GRABS" brass. I am the one that stated that theory was bullshit.

Also, do you shoot mandrels in your rifles? C'mon man, bullet =mandrel .

What's different about pressing a mandrel into sized brass vs pressing a bullet into sized brass?

 

[NoDopes]

You can also use a bushing die to reduce overworking the brass during sizing and reduce Mandel expansion.

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[Austan]

I didn't notice if this has been mentioned yet or not, but if you are not applying a vld chamfer you could also try that in lieu of or in addition to lubing. It makes a noticeable difference over the standard chamfer.

 

[Jcarpenter223]

Ive wet tumbled my lapua brass and bout to send some off for annealing...saw someone mention the open flam soot trick...does that actually work or should I just use graphite? Any particular brand or whatever amazon has?

 

[918v]

Redding/Imperial

 

[Oryx]

What's different about pressing a mandrel into sized brass vs pressing a bullet into sized brass?

A mandrel might vary by 0.001" increments up and down for a particular caliber and therefor adjust interference fit.

Bullets are pretty much caliber specific and rarely will you find anyone neck sizing with just a bullet .... most fired cased might not even hold a bullet. No one is likely using the bullet alone to resize a neck.

The resizing die is going to reset a neck dimension, whether by expander ball, bushing or custom neck dimension .... a mandrel (or expander ball) will give you adjustable sizing from the inside of the neck after the die collapses to a set dimension. It works the neck 2x times in the process. A bushing works the neck from the outside to a chosen diameter in a single step.

Brass condition will determine the amount of spring back to a final dimension after any chosen process.

 

[Tokay444]

A mandrel might vary by 0.001" increments up and down for a particular caliber and therefor adjust interference fit.

Bullets are pretty much caliber specific and rarely will you find anyone neck sizing with just a bullet .... most fired cased might not even hold a bullet. No one is likely using the bullet alone to resize a neck.

The resizing die is going to reset a neck dimension, whether by expander ball, bushing or custom neck dimension .... a mandrel (or expander ball) will give you adjustable sizing from the inside of the neck after the die collapses to a set dimension. It works the neck 2x times in the process. A bushing works the neck from the outside to a chosen diameter in a single step.

Brass condition will determine the amount of spring back to a final dimension after any chosen process.

So again, what difference does the brass recognize between stuffing a mandrel in it, and stuffing a bullet it it?

 

[n2ishun]

So has anyone asked what the case wall thickness was at the neck ?
Y'all know if it's too thick you can turn the necks real easily.
Break out the calipers dude.

 

[Baron23]

I am not the one that claimed hard brass "GRABS" brass. I am the one that stated that theory was bullshit.

Also, do you shoot mandrels in your rifles? C'mon man, bullet =mandrel .

You actually have any friends at all, Haney? Wow

Well, at least you are consistent

 

[Oryx]

So again, what difference does the brass recognize between stuffing a mandrel in it, and stuffing a bullet it it?

And again ... variance in sizing.

 

[Baron23]

Ive wet tumbled my lapua brass and bout to send some off for annealing...saw someone mention the open flam soot trick...does that actually work or should I just use graphite? Any particular brand or whatever amazon has?

You want Imperial Dry NECK Lube....NOT Imperial Sizing DIE WAX Lube

Amazon product ASIN B00PFY0M90

 

[Choid]

You actually have any friends at all, Haney? Wow

Well, at least you are consistent

He makes me look chummy.

 

[Mike Casselton]

A mandrel might vary by 0.001" increments up and down for a particular caliber and therefor adjust interference fit.

Bullets are pretty much caliber specific and rarely will you find anyone neck sizing with just a bullet .... most fired cased might not even hold a bullet. No one is likely using the bullet alone to resize a neck.

The resizing die is going to reset a neck dimension, whether by expander ball, bushing or custom neck dimension .... a mandrel (or expander ball) will give you adjustable sizing from the inside of the neck after the die collapses to a set dimension. It works the neck 2x times in the process. A bushing works the neck from the outside to a chosen diameter in a single step.

Brass condition will determine the amount of spring back to a final dimension after any chosen process.

If your expander ball works twice during a sizing operation, you've got big problems.
The only reason an expander ball should touch the inside of the neck going in, is if you're sizing UP the necks from something like 6 CM to the 6.5.

Otherwise, it goes through the fired neck without touching. The die sizes the body and neck down then allowing the expander to be brought back up through the neck and opening it.

Unfired brass is different.

 

[Choid]

If your expander ball works twice during a sizing operation, you've got big problems.
The only reason an expander ball should touch the inside of the neck going in, is if you're sizing UP the necks from something like 6 CM to the 6.5.

Otherwise, it goes through the fired neck without touching. The die sizes the body and neck down then allowing the expander to be brought back up through the neck and opening it.

Unfired brass is different.

Only time I can think of it working twice is if you full length size after running one of the Dillon case trimmers. It's not ideal, but there really isn't an ideal way to use those damn things, no matter what people say.

 

[Oryx]

If your expander ball works twice during a sizing operation, you've got big problems.
The only reason an expander ball should touch the inside of the neck going in, is if you're sizing UP the necks from something like 6 CM to the 6.5.

Otherwise, it goes through the fired neck without touching. The die sizes the body and neck down then allowing the expander to be brought back up through the neck and opening it.

Unfired brass is different.

I was referring to the resizing die with an expander ball. The die itself works the brass first when it chokes down the neck. The expander ball then reworks the brass when removed from the case.

 

[Mike Casselton]

I was referring to the resizing die with an expander ball. The die itself works the brass first when it chokes down the neck. The expander ball then reworks the brass when removed from the case.

That's what I was referring to.
Maybe what you wrote was a typo, but you said the expander worked twice.

No biggie, it's corrected now.

 

[Oryx]

Correct - what I typed was not as articulate as what I was trying to say ... can't type as fast as as my thoughts.... I mentioned most fired cases wouldn't hold a bullet (expander ball is smaller than caliber).

Regardless, you are correct.