Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

S

SLUHstud

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Dec 10, 2010
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#1
Being new to reloading I am wondering if there is any way to fix what appears to be the expander ball of the die from dragging on the case neck as it exits?

I understand that as you lower the die the expander ball enters the neck and reforms it to the correct size. However then when I raise the die back up there seems to be a large amount of force required to pull the expander ball back through the neck. This is with using some RCBS dies which i know are not the most expensive in the world but still seem to get the job done for me in this stage of the reloading game.

Is this force on the neck an issue? Should I not worry about it? Also is this something that is prevalent with the bushing dies as well?

Sorry for the newbish question but I could not find an answer that adequetly adressed this.
 
#2
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

You're suppose to lube inside the neck of the case befoe you resize it. Makes it easier and lessens the stress on the brass.

They do make carbide expander balls but still, I like to lightly lube inside the necks.
 
#3
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

Thanks for the reply. I am using the dillon spray lube as per the instructions on the lube itself. Its not a great amount of drag, but it is still there.

Just trying to make sure not doing any harm and is normal i guess. I have thought about polishing the expander some with some fine grit sandpaper or polishing compound to see if that helps, but so far have been to busy to actually sit down and try it.

Pat
 
#4
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

Any time two pieces of metal are moving together under high force some sort of lube is required, and take the die apart and chuck the stem assy in a drill, polish the expander ball with 0000 steel wool and/or a Dremel tool with polishing compound, and finally on the out stroke don't jerk the ball out, nice smooth n easy, don't forget to brush the necks out first.

Imperial sizing wax
 
#6
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

Imperial makes a little jar with media and a dry lube, It won't leave an oily sticky residue on the inside of the case, grease or any oily lube will attract powder entering the case. Not really a good idea. Dip every 4th or 5th case in it and they won't bind.
 
#7
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 427Cobra</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any time two pieces of metal are moving together under high force some sort of lube is required, and take the die apart and chuck the stem assy in a drill, polish the expander ball with 0000 steel wool and/or a Dremel tool with polishing compound, and finally on the out stroke don't jerk the ball out, nice smooth n easy, don't forget to brush the necks out first.

Imperial sizing wax </div></div>

I always routinely polish my expander balls with 400 and 600 grit sandpaper while they're spinning in the drill. You won't remove enough metal to worry about, and it makes a tremendous difference in smoothness.

Brushing the case necks out with a bore brush, and then lubing them with Motor Mica also helps a lot. I do this type of 'grunt work' that doesn't require a lot of attention to detail while watching the tube. Clean primer pockets, chamfer case mouths (if required - usually only when new or after trimming), and brushing case necks out. Gently place the prepped brass into a container (coffee can, tupperware tub, or whatever), then all I have to do is run it over the Motor Mica brush, lube with Imperial, and size.

Case Neck Lube
 
#8
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

The expander ball is supposed to drag on the way out after the neck gets reduced by the die. This induces a degree of springback that is (IMHO) beneficial.

I never lube my necks, just a quirk of mine. The amount of drag is an indicator for me that allows me to recognize when the necks are getting more work hardened. The more drag, the more hardening. When it gets to be a significant issue, it also usually means my necks are too hard to provide a reasonable degree of neck tension.

There are personal tricks I use to deal with this, but for a beginner, I think that's excessively advanced.

Greg
 
#9
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

Expander balls, used in the sizing step, re size the neck when pulling out.

The ball pulls on the neck, and the shell holder pulls on the case rim. This is almost always a few thousands out of alignment, and the neck gets bent.

The seated bullet then enters the chamber throat out of axial alignment, the center of mass is off the center of the bore. When the bullet exits the muzzle, centrifugal force flings the bullet off the bore center. As each bent neck is inserted in the the chamber with random rotational orientation, the bullets are flung off center at the muzzle in random radial directions. This increases group size and is one of the few aspects of accuracy that can be calculated.

The best way to fix it is to refire the case and throw away the expander ball.

 
#10
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

A lot of the drag on case necks is the result of carbon residue on the necks of the cases which embeds in the case and scores the expander.

This is easily seen with a good glass.

The only way I know of to remove the carbon from case necks is tumble with stainless steel media. Cases so cleaned prior to expandng the necks don't show the same scoring.

As a rule I use a Lee universal decapper, then tumble clean in stainless media and then expand my necks from the top end with expanders and there is no scoring of expander or necks. This does several things including removing case sizing residue.

I know of others you order a 8MM expander for RCBS and then polish them down to desired sized. Cases will last longer this way. Stress relieve the necks every three shots helps as well.

Bottom line is if you stress relieve your case necks properly you should have have a split neck and case should go bad from primer pocket getting larger.
 
#11
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Expander balls, used in the sizing step, re size the neck when pulling out.

The ball pulls on the neck, and the shell holder pulls on the case rim. This is almost always a few thousands out of alignment, and the neck gets bent.

The seated bullet then enters the chamber throat out of axial alignment, the center of mass is off the center of the bore. When the bullet exits the muzzle, centrifugal force flings the bullet off the bore center. As each bent neck is inserted in the the chamber with random rotational orientation, the bullets are flung off center at the muzzle in random radial directions. This increases group size and is one of the few aspects of accuracy that can be calculated.

The best way to fix it is to refire the case and throw away the expander ball.

</div></div>

As stated, remove the expander ball.
 
#12
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

After you tumble clean your brass, polish/clean the inside of the necks with 0000 steel wool on a bore size brush spun in a drill. That cleans the debris and carbon out of the neck. I use some Lock Ease (graphite in alcohol based lube) inside the necks after the previous step. I don't use the expander ball. If I want to expand the necks I use a K&M expander die. I like the bushing dies, or Forster hones the necks out to my desired diameter for $16.00. JMHO
 
#13
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

Would doing a two step sizing using a lee collet die and then a body die be a better way to size cases for accuracy?

I have a stainless steel set up for cleaning, moved up to it just a bit ago as I was not having much luck with ultra sonic. I have yet to try to load any of the cases I have cleaned with the ss media as I've been loading cases I had ready to go and cleaned previously on the ultra sonic cleaner.

What dies would u guys suggest for best accuracy, I'm moving in the direction of precision shooting from just all around blasting. I have rcbs dies for 223 and pistol which will serve the need for blasting ammo, but I have a custom bolt in .260 Remington coming and a .308 semi from apa coming that will require dies. I know the saying dry once and buy the best and that's what I would like to do with these dies.

Currently thinking lee collet, redding body die and foster micro meter comp seated? Any other suggestions?

Thanks
Pat
 
#14
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

The Redding bushing dies with their competition seater make excellent ammo, but they are rather spendy. Forster dies also make excellent ammo, and they're more reasonably priced.

Far as that goes, some folks swear by the Lee Deluxe dies sets with their collet sizer and dead-length seater. Lee dies aren't as nicely polished as some others, but they certainly have their followers.
 
#15
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

I think that dies should be used the way they were designed to be used. If you don't want to use an expander ball, get a die set that was designed without one from the get-go. Diameters and tolerances for non-expander dies are different from those that use them, and it makes better sense to me for a user to use the non-expander dies when they don't want to use an expander. The other dies tend to leave the neck at a smaller diameter since the expectation is that the ball will reset the diameter appropriately on the way out.

While it is true that expander balls will often result in some neck concentricity issues, I think this may be less of an issue than many others might.

My approach to shooting is solidly based on employing SAAMI chambers. There is, of course, some accuracy sacrifice; but my kind of shooting demands do not require better than 1/2MOA accuracy at 100yd.

In return, this also largely absolves me from certain precision handloading demands, and allows me to streamline my handloding process. I would consider this to be a reasonable tradeoff; while a BR shooter wouldn't. For what we do here, I prefer my own approach. YMMV

Greg
 
#17
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that dies should be used the way they were designed to be used. If you don't want to use an expander ball, get a die set that was designed without one from the get-go. Diameters and tolerances for non-expander dies are different from those that use them, and it makes better sense to me for a user to use the non-expander dies when they don't want to use an expander. The other dies tend to leave the neck at a smaller diameter since the expectation is that the ball will reset the diameter appropriately on the way out.

While it is true that expander balls will often result in some neck concentricity issues, I think this may be less of an issue than many others might.

My approach to shooting is solidly based on employing SAAMI chambers. There is, of course, some accuracy sacrifice; but my kind of shooting demands do not require better than 1/2MOA accuracy at 100yd.

In return, this also largely absolves me from certain precision handloading demands, and allows me to streamline my handloding process. I would consider this to be a reasonable tradeoff; while a BR shooter wouldn't. For what we do here, I prefer my own approach. YMMV

Greg </div></div>

+1+

While not complicated, this is one of the best, and most insightful statements I've ever seen on the 'hide. I've got just about every frickin' reloading tool out there. I've turned necks, I've weight sorted, I've taken it to the nth degree. Sometimes it makes me feel good - and its important to feel good about your ammo when you show up to a match....but...

I recently put some IVI-70 NATO brass into service. Once fired from M14s. I cleaned, annealed, an FLS and swaged the crimps. I did not trim, I did not uniform pockets, I did not debur flash holes. Some of the flash holes are off center. It shoots better than 1/2 MOA. How much better does it need to be? Especially when you're in a match where you and your partner each have 6 targets to hit at various distances in 5 minutes?
 
#18
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2shots</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Imperial makes a little jar with media and a dry lube, It won't leave an oily sticky residue on the inside of the case, grease or any oily lube will attract powder entering the case. Not really a good idea. Dip every 4th or 5th case in it and they won't bind. </div></div>

+1
Also, you can polish the expander ball with Flitz.
 
#19
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

Remove expander ball and get back to work

Only time I use the expander ball is if I am loading for a semiauto and have boogered up case mouths. Otherwise, I remove the expanders, rod, etc and run without them. For necking up a round, like 22-250 to 6xc, I use an expanding mandrel...works much better.
 
#20
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

Hold on, what am I missing here? Several people are telling this guy to remove the expander and forget about it. This guy is using a plain jane RCBS die...

If he simply removes the expander ball, his necks are going to be way too small, and the bullet is going to become the expander, which is going to scratch his bullets up. Secondly, his neck tension is going to be huge.

Yes, with a properly sized bushing die, one can avoid the expander ball...but...its really only an advantage if you have fantastic brass prep. If you have a little tiny burr, say .002" thick on your case mouth, a bushing die is going to size the neck too small, and you'll have high neck tension. Same tiny burr, sized with an expander will yield a perfectly sized ID case mouth (ID is what matters MOST). Sure, the burr isn't ideal, but its a smaller issue when using an expander ball than without the expander.

OP: Don't sweat it. A little drag is normal. You should lube your case, and also the inside of the case mouth. As stated, the Imperial wax is awesome. If you don't have some, get some. Its a little slower than the "spray and pray" method, but it really makes for some SLICK sizing.

Food for thought: My buddy and I laid down some ZERO MOA 5-shot groups at 200 yards the other day with his SAC .308, using 2 or 3 times fired (FLS every time) Lapua brass, loaded using a 25 year old RCBS rock chucker and standard RCBS 308 dies.

Load lots of ammo, fire lots of ammo, and practice your fundamentals EVERY shot... Thats all it takes, not fancy shmancy reloading equipment and procedures.
 
#21
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think that dies should be used the way they were designed to be used. If you don't want to use an expander ball, get a die set that was designed without one from the get-go. Diameters and tolerances for non-expander dies are different from those that use them, and it makes better sense to me for a user to use the non-expander dies when they don't want to use an expander. The other dies tend to leave the neck at a smaller diameter since the expectation is that the ball will reset the diameter appropriately on the way out.

While it is true that expander balls will often result in some neck concentricity issues, I think this may be less of an issue than many others might.

My approach to shooting is solidly based on employing SAAMI chambers. There is, of course, some accuracy sacrifice; but my kind of shooting demands do not require better than 1/2MOA accuracy at 100yd.

In return, this also largely absolves me from certain precision handloading demands, and allows me to streamline my handloding process. I would consider this to be a reasonable tradeoff; while a BR shooter wouldn't. For what we do here, I prefer my own approach. YMMV
Greg </div></div>
I found myself at a fork in the road:
a) I throw away the expander ball and the groups get smaller.
b) I keep following the die instructions and the groups stay big.

Most guys learn how to get 1" 5 shot groups at 100 yards faster than I did. My gnat brain slow learning, I have carefully documented.
I reload 19 Badger,.222, .223, 22-250, 6mmBR, .243, 25acp, 25/35, 250/3000, 257 Robert Ackley Improved, 260Rem, 6.5x55, 270, 7x57mm, 7mm Rem mag, 32acp, 32sw, 32S&WLong, 32-20, 7.62x25mm, 30-30, 303Sav, 300Sav, 7.62x39mm, 308, 7.5Swiss, 30-06, 300WM, 303Brit,7.62x54R, 8x57mm, 338WM, .380, 9x19mm, 9x23mm, 357 Sig, 38 sp, 357 mag, 38sw, 40sw 10mm, 10.4mm, 401 power mag, 44mag, 45acp, 45Colt, .410, 45/70, and 12 ga.
I probably have 100 die sets.
I have modified dies and modified presses.
I have made my own dies.
I am an engineer. I have designed a lot of tests and supervised that no variables get out of control.
I have only verified at the range that no expander ball is clearly more accurate in 223, 257 RAI, 7.62x54R, and 8x57mm.
But it is so clear in those, and indirectly verifiable with a concentricity gauge in other cartridges, that I do no expander ball to all the other rifle cartridges, and it is now my practice.
Sure it is better to get the dies honed out, but with tight neck factory dies, I am having no trouble seating even square butt jacketed rifle bullets. I need to expand for cast bullets, but that is done with an M die pushing and cast is a small part of my act. Pistol cartridges need to bell the mouth, but it is done while pushing.

Reloading for accuracy is learned from gun culture folklore. Life is too short for the individual to do controlled testing on all practices. You must pick and choose which practices are worth doing, often based on nothing more than things like consensus or intuition.
 
#22
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hold on, what am I missing here? Several people are telling this guy to remove the expander and forget about it. This guy is using a plain jane RCBS die...

If he simply removes the expander ball, his necks are going to be way too small, and the bullet is going to become the expander, which is going to scratch his bullets up. Secondly, his neck tension is going to be huge.


</div></div>

Say what? Ok, maybe he could have some dies with some overly agressive neck tension but I doubt it. Or maybe its cause I mainly use Redding dies with bushings. But I have bunch of dies that arent bushing dies, including RCBS, Dillon, Forster, Lee (yeah, even have some of those) and other than when I am loading for an autoshucker, I dont have the mandrel fixture in there and I dont seem to have any issues with crazy neck tension. But, i guess I will pay attention when I load with them the next time and see if I notice any extra tension when I am seating a bullet....though after thousands of rounds, I think I might have noticed that. :)
 
#23
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

I'm using the Dillon trim die that resizes too. Haven't found anyone that will hone that out yet but would get it done if I could find someone.

I usually run my 550B semi-progressive so I set up a size-die in the 1st station only using the expander. Since it doesn't need to go up into the neck-size area, the expander does it's job when the case is pushed up into the die.

This has extremely reduced case neck run-out for me.
 
#24
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

Some interesting things in this thread that have perked my ears up. Turbo you and I generally agree on most things but I have to digress a bit(I didn't say disagree). Scratching the bullet...ehhhhhhhI don't know. If you scratch it before it has the shit beat out of it by that violent ignition at the trigger pull did you really hurt anything. That question is speculative in my opinion.
Mudcat has made me sit up and take note and methinks I may try pulling my balls.....expander balls. I know Mudcat and have watched him shoot, if he says it makes good ammo then I simply have to try it at least......but seriously John....Lee dies?? Please tell me they are pistol dies
smile.gif
 
#25
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

My standard, run of the mill RCBS 308 FLS die, with the expander ball removed leaves my case neck ID at .295 as measured with gage pins. That is .013" interference. Thats a bunch of neck tension.

Admittedly, I have never tried making ammo without the expander - maybe I oughtta try it before knocking it, but it seems like a bad idea based ONLY on the numbers. If guys with direct experience are saying it just "flat works"...Well, I'm inclined to believe it. Stranger things have happened.

As far as bullet scratches go, I think its pretty hard to "quantify", but a couple weeks ago I pulled some bullets out of some ammo I loaded at least 1.5 year ago, and had been kicking around so long I forgot what it was. I noted a number of the bullets had some ugly(ish) longitudinal scratches on them, because I wasn't using a VLD chamfering tool back then. One bullet had a real ugly scratch all the way around the bearing surface of the bullet - from where I had "carefully" used a file to remove some shaved jacket material from when it was loaded (again, no VLD chamfering tool back then).

I labeled all rounds loaded with these blemished bullets, and fired them the next time I went out and shot at 600 yards. After 10-15 rounds into the X ring with my "good" ammo, I started shooting the blems. The ones with longitudinal scratches mostly danced around the outside of the X ring, with one dropping out into the 9 ring.... but the one with the file marks around it (and also some jacket material shaved off) was WAY out in the 7 ring. Barely even in the black.

Sure, maybe if I didn't "know" it was the bad round, it wouldn't have happened - but I don't think so.
 
#26
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My standard, run of the mill RCBS 308 FLS die, with the expander ball removed leaves my case neck ID at .295 as measured with gage pins. That is .013" interference. Thats a bunch of neck tension.

.. </div></div>

Once the elastic limit is reached, plastic deformation starts. The is why the actual neck tension of .002" interference is as high a tension as you can get.

Great 308 national competitors, like Bart Bobbitt, has a library of RCBS 308 sizer dies with the necks honed out. And he uses LESS than .002" of neck interference, because he does not want that much neck tension.

.002" interference [max tension] is fine with me. I am not a competitor. I never saw a 1/2" group I didn't like.
 
#27
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

That's a good point Clark, and I hadn't considered it. Obviously, the brass isn't stretchy enough to spring BACK to 295 after bullet seating. Ill have to check this out to verify - your claim is that a neck ID of 295 before seating will measure 306 after seating if I pull the bullet? Makes sense.

I still worry about scratching/shaving the jacket though.
 
#28
Re: Expander ball dragging- way to fix?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but seriously John....Lee dies?? Please tell me they are pistol dies
smile.gif
</div></div>

Yes, and some rifle, but only for stuff that I do NOT compete with. Plinking stuff, some hunting stuff, etc. And, of course, I do love my Lee decapper! Awesome tool.
 
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