As the rimfire bug grabs the world by storm what are the real expectations for accuracy when buying a rim fire? Let’s say you buy a CZ, Ruger P , berguara , tikia should we expect them to be 3/4-1/2 gun at 50yds or 1/2-3/8 guns. Are the VUDU ,RimX and Annie’s are they 1/4 ”guns and better? I know quality ammo is key even with the higher end guns with that being said can you take a production gun run it thru the lot testing and get the 1/4” or better combo or is that a rare feet? Personal Capability also plays a big part. Should you be looking at groups at 100-150 instead? We no when u get beyond 50 yds the weather definitely plays a role. I’m thinking with so many new people getting into rimfire having the right Expectations might be helpful. Thanks for your input
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Expectations
- Thread starter Hattrick
- Start date
Rimfire expected accuracy? Realistic?
The best rifles in the world, in a test tunnel, from a fixture, with the best 22lr ammunition available
have trouble producing a 40 shot 12mm group at 50 meters, measured outside edge to outside edge at the widest point.
The majority of results from the Lapua and Eley facilities I've seen run 14mm or more from the aggregate group.
Expecting a mass produced rimfire rifle to better those results is asking for disappointment.
Most mass produced rifles are capable of random acts of accuracy, but consistent results are unlikely.
The best rifles in the world, in a test tunnel, from a fixture, with the best 22lr ammunition available
have trouble producing a 40 shot 12mm group at 50 meters, measured outside edge to outside edge at the widest point.
The majority of results from the Lapua and Eley facilities I've seen run 14mm or more from the aggregate group.
Expecting a mass produced rimfire rifle to better those results is asking for disappointment.
Most mass produced rifles are capable of random acts of accuracy, but consistent results are unlikely.
I'd say that Anschutz is probably the only "factory" outfit presently producing rifles capable of 1/4" @ 50yds with any regularity. To get that out of them, you'll need to do lot testing for sure and maybe even add a tuner. They can be really finicky. ... and don't expect this out of their budget lines. Only the top end 54's and such would I expect it from.
I just got done testing 4 new RimX builds we are sending out to customers, and they all shoot in the .3's or better without tuners, without lot testing. With one of them, I did lot testing, and shrunk that to the .2's with some .1's and .0's and .3's scattered in. With a tuner, it would really shine.
It's important to qualify the expectation as well. If you shoot five 5-shot groups, and they all measure X... is that enough? Or do you need to shoot twenty 5-shot groups? Does every round fired need to go in the .2's to count? If so... there aren't going to be too many rifles and too many lots of ammo that can meet that requirement.
Lot testing and tuners are required equipment if you plan to milk all available accuracy/precision from a rifle.
Buying the cheaper stuff such as CZ 457's, Tikka T1X's, and Bergara B14R's... I'd say there's a bit of rifle lottery involved. Some guys have lucked into real stunners. However, if I were to buy one, I wouldn't count on it, nor be upset if it didn't happen. It would seem that getting .4's, .5's, and .6's from those rifles isn't super difficult. Rifles that shoot much better don't seem to be a regular occurrence.
I just got done testing 4 new RimX builds we are sending out to customers, and they all shoot in the .3's or better without tuners, without lot testing. With one of them, I did lot testing, and shrunk that to the .2's with some .1's and .0's and .3's scattered in. With a tuner, it would really shine.
It's important to qualify the expectation as well. If you shoot five 5-shot groups, and they all measure X... is that enough? Or do you need to shoot twenty 5-shot groups? Does every round fired need to go in the .2's to count? If so... there aren't going to be too many rifles and too many lots of ammo that can meet that requirement.
Lot testing and tuners are required equipment if you plan to milk all available accuracy/precision from a rifle.
Buying the cheaper stuff such as CZ 457's, Tikka T1X's, and Bergara B14R's... I'd say there's a bit of rifle lottery involved. Some guys have lucked into real stunners. However, if I were to buy one, I wouldn't count on it, nor be upset if it didn't happen. It would seem that getting .4's, .5's, and .6's from those rifles isn't super difficult. Rifles that shoot much better don't seem to be a regular occurrence.
Justin,
The guy is asking what type of 50 yard 5 or ten shot groups measured center to center he can reasonably expect to achieve with an off the shelf rifle most of the time. You have more information on this than most. Your answer is not really useful to a beginner as worded. I know you know the answer that can help him set expectations.
The guy is asking what type of 50 yard 5 or ten shot groups measured center to center he can reasonably expect to achieve with an off the shelf rifle most of the time. You have more information on this than most. Your answer is not really useful to a beginner as worded. I know you know the answer that can help him set expectations.
My Vudoo with me shooting it, i’m not an expert, will shoot around .27 average on a 5 shot group at 50 yd on a calm wind. Of course i shoot worse and a few better. This is off a bipod and homade sandbag and bench. I’m 75 years old.
One consideration about rimfires is that even the best are ammo lot reliant and even with a good lot, accuracy tends to be a wave rather than a line. A bore can get carbon build up or have other issues. Rimfire is and always will be a bit of a mystery. Part of the fun and frustration of it all.
RT, I offered the best that can be expected from a rimfire setup.
All of us know just how bad the results can get at 50 yards/meters.
If really interested in results then I suppose I should have directed my comments to jbells rimfire 6x5.
That would have offered true examples of just how results can vary by ammunition, rifle and shooter.
All of us know just how bad the results can get at 50 yards/meters.
If really interested in results then I suppose I should have directed my comments to jbells rimfire 6x5.
That would have offered true examples of just how results can vary by ammunition, rifle and shooter.
Good thread I’m sure this will be helpful to many of folks. As for tuners I first seen tuners years ago when Browning brought out the boss system I thought they looked horrible but boy could you get a stock rifle to shoot if you put the time in. Impressive was a understatement. I always thought a Suppressor with Tuning Capabilities would be best of both worlds
Dale Seibert, who owns Apache triggers, is about 15 miles from me. He has an 75 yard indoor range and holds 50 yard BR matches every Friday night. On the wall he has targets grouped: Zero Club, Teen Club, etc.(5 shot groups). I know from looking at the wall, there are several (aka a lot) in the "Teen Club." However, there are very few in the "Zero Club." And these are from guys, mostly machinists who have waaayyyyy too much time on their hands and love to tinker with their rifles. Most of them are from, of course, annies, with a few Savages thrown in. All of the zero groups have tuners. The Vudu and the like aren't really a BR rifle, at least in the eyes of older BR shooter. So, I don't know if many have shot at his place with them.
You'll find pics on the net of zero groups from guys shooting shelf rifles. Hell, I have a couple pics of high zero groups, myself. But, no doubt they were flukes and not repeatable. But, I keep them hanging on my wall, just to make me feel better. lol But, by and large, consistent groups in the teens are common, in a controlled setting. Whereas, zero's are something to behold.
You'll find pics on the net of zero groups from guys shooting shelf rifles. Hell, I have a couple pics of high zero groups, myself. But, no doubt they were flukes and not repeatable. But, I keep them hanging on my wall, just to make me feel better. lol But, by and large, consistent groups in the teens are common, in a controlled setting. Whereas, zero's are something to behold.
I could cherry pick a half dozen groups from my Bergara measuring in the .1s and .2s ctc at 50 yards and perhaps make you think that is normal for the rifle. Fact is though that it’s “just” consistently sub-moa with good ammo. For an $850 rifle I’m happy with that. To get significantly better than that it seems you have to spend 2-3x that on a RimX or Vudu.
I never shot benchrest, or any competition that was based on groups. As a new shooter, I shot tons of groups as I was learning how to shoot better, fundamentals etc. I was always interested in doing NRL22/PRS Rimfire so I chose based on what I felt had the most options to grow/expand. Tuners aren't allowed in NRL22, so I never had to bother with it.
An interesting idea would be a FFL/GunStore, just sends all of their rimfire rifles over to Lapua and get them tested and lot matched. Then start selling the gun/ammo as a package.
An interesting idea would be a FFL/GunStore, just sends all of their rimfire rifles over to Lapua and get them tested and lot matched. Then start selling the gun/ammo as a package.
Not sure, they probably allow it, but didn't see anyone with one there. It might be allowed. With that much amount of movement and in and out of barricades, I probably wouldn't want a tuner on the rifle. Lot testing and getting the Vudoo down to a consistent 1/4" at 50 is good enough for shooting the 18" 400 yard plates.
I would definitely list Anschutz behind Bleiker, Walther and G&E regarding accuracy. They have definitely fallen behind the other 3 listed and are more of a rarity during ISSF finals.
Lots of good info already. Anecdotally, a factory sporter Sako p94s does 0.25” at 50 with best ammo, an old Savage/anschutz does 1.3” at 200, but sucks at 50, both off a bench with sandbags, outdoors with wind , over a couple flags. Both with 36x old Weaver with a tiny dot for precise hold on POA. You have to do the ammo chase with any 22, but at shorter ranges cheap stuff of a good lot may surprise you. Consider tac-22, fed auto match, SK + if on a budget. Personal capability centers on reading conditions if you are a decent shot. If you test indoors/in a tunnel and pick the best ammo, you still need to confirm that it follows the wind predictably. Studying where a shot should go in a given wind angle and speed will help. Seymour
You’ll have no argument from me. However availability in the USA leaves something to be desired, and at that price point, I’d rather have a TS Customs RimX.
That's it, right there. NRL stages never have anything below 1moa targets (which is a .25" at 25y). Most of the time, they are well, well, larger. Heck, even a K-Mart $59 Marlin from the '80s or a nylon 66 can smack a .25" at 25y....If the nut behind the bolt can.
You guys nailed it Bleiker, Walther, Feinwerkbau, and Grunig & Elmiger will shoot with anything out there. However with the price point and customer service that American companies like Vudoo, Zermatt, and their supporting gunsmiths bring to the table the boutique European precision rimfire companies cant begin to compete (never mind they are repeaters that run like a Swiss watch). IMO if you are after the highest level of rimfire accuracy don’t settle for anything less than a Vudoo or a Zermatt build, even if that means you have to hold off to save up more money to get one. You will not regret it...
Not a lot to add here other than to restate the point about accuracy requirements for NRL22, assuming that is what we are generally referring to with the comment about 22 becoming more popular. Anecdotally, I placed just above mid-pack in my very first match with a rifle and ammo combo that was at about 1.5-2 MOA. I felt the key there was the fact that I felt very comfortable shooting that rifle in the positions required of me. My very worst stage was exactly the one I felt I would not do well at and didn't practice much (unsupported paper stage). However, I was using my daughter's rifle and the bug bit me and I bought a used Bergara. My next match I did much better. I suspect it was equal parts a rifle+ammo that would shoot sub MOA and simply more experience and less nerves.
I can summarize the whole accuracy expectation thing, from my recent research, like this: Achieving MOA with a more budget oriented, say ~$600 and under, rifle is a bit of a lottery. Buy used with targets as proof if you plan to go this way. Or be ready for dissapointment if you lose on the wheel of accuracy. Bump up the budget to a Bergara or a CZ with a new barrel and it seems sub MOA, reliably with the right ammo is pretty common. After that, what are you left with? I guess only Annies, Rimx and Vudoo. The reputation of these rifles preceeds them and is well earned. Do you NEED it for NRL22? No. Does it help you score better? In my opinion, absolutely. The error effect stacks in the worst of cases. Add what you are capable to shoot in any given position to what the rifle can do. Compare this against the target size. You must decide if the value is there.
I can summarize the whole accuracy expectation thing, from my recent research, like this: Achieving MOA with a more budget oriented, say ~$600 and under, rifle is a bit of a lottery. Buy used with targets as proof if you plan to go this way. Or be ready for dissapointment if you lose on the wheel of accuracy. Bump up the budget to a Bergara or a CZ with a new barrel and it seems sub MOA, reliably with the right ammo is pretty common. After that, what are you left with? I guess only Annies, Rimx and Vudoo. The reputation of these rifles preceeds them and is well earned. Do you NEED it for NRL22? No. Does it help you score better? In my opinion, absolutely. The error effect stacks in the worst of cases. Add what you are capable to shoot in any given position to what the rifle can do. Compare this against the target size. You must decide if the value is there.
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