Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

J

Janus4088

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Minuteman
Dec 3, 2009
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San Jose, CA
#1
What kind of accuracy do you guys with tons of experience get from your .22lr trainers? My 'trainer' is my first ever bolt gun, and there is no one in my area I have met that really shoots at 100yards or more, so I have no merit by which to gauge my success, or failure.

These are the kinds of 10 round groups I can put up with my FV-SR (Boyds stock, Weaver 3-10x TGS):
Be98key.jpg


I am thinking about bedding the rifle to try and get a bit more out of it, but am I at the threshold of what I can expect, accuracy wise out of this thing? I am also thinking about an aftermarket trigger, but before I blow $100+ from my budget for my centerfire build ($2500 for complete build, optics and all), I want to be sure I am going to get a noticeable change.

That was one of my best groups of the day, and I wasn't using my best ammo, Wolf Match, it was with Aguila SuperExtra, which grouped better all day for me... I really don't get it, Wolf performed slightly better at 50 yards for me, noticeably so, when I did my first batch of ammo testing. Now the Aguila seems to outperform the Wolf at 100 yards. It could just be a fluke, with a lot of rookie user error. Here is a comparison:

EC6AK0B.jpg


Outer targets marked with an A are Aguila, center is Wolf. Maybe I pulled on the two upper hits with the Wolf? The group would have been immensely better without those errors...

Anyways, as someone that grew up without any guns near him, and is really just getting into precision shooting, I have no idea how to quantify my results, so I am curious what you all think.

<span style="font-weight: bold">EDIT: For some reason I cannot embed EDITED IMGUR pictures, here are easier to look at versions of the above:</span>
Aguila, Single.
Comparison
 
#2
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

If y'er shootin' offhand, y'er doin' great.
If y'er shootin' off a bipod, ya' need practice and better ammo.
If y'er shooting from a bench rest, ya' need a better setup.

Sad to say, I can't shoot that well offhand,
azcrying.gif

from a bipod I need more practice, but off a rest, I'm shiny.
 
#3
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

Yeah, sorry should have specified. From a Bipod. Like I said this is my first precision gun, there is no way I am moving on to offhand before I get this more dialed in.

So what is considered respectable at 100 yards from a bipod? Quarter sized 10 round groups?
 
#4
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

A couple things come to mind.
How many shots on the barrel?
Scope?
How many kinds of ammo have you tried?
My experience may be close to yours.
Last year I purchased a Savage 93FVSS package with a cheap Bushnell scope (outsourced and going for $90 on Amazon).
Like you shooting from a bi-pod, and groups very close to yours.
I heard everything from 'it should be way better' to 'that's averge for the .22WMR round'.
Now a year later I've got about 2500 round through it.
Tried every kind of ammo I could find. Remington 40gr gave 3" or bigger groups. Hornady V-Max cut that easily in half and Remington .33 Accutip are a bit better than that.
I've adjusted the trigger and torqued the stock screws properly.
I replaced the crap scope with a Hawke Tactical...cost 50% more than the gun and still considered to be on the 'crap' side by many here ;-)
On the advice of a friend in local law enforcement purchased (and learned how to use) a good rear bag (a TAB).
Your right...10 shots will now easily be covered by a quarter and I've had more than a few 5 shot groups that are just over 1/2" at 100m (about 108yds).
 
#7
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

Contrary to outsized claims that is about the norm for a Savage in 22lr. A few rifles are exceptional but what you have is about right for out of the box with these guns.

There are already numerous threads on what you can expect in accuracy from numerous brands of 22 rifles here. You will have to decide for yourself what is true and what has been embellished.
 
#8
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: armorpl8chikn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Contrary to outsized claims that is about the norm for a Savage in 22lr. A few rifles are exceptional but what you have is about right for out of the box with these guns.

There are already numerous threads on what you can expect in accuracy from numerous brands of 22 rifles here. You will have to decide for yourself what is true and what has been embellished. </div></div>

I'd disagree and say you should be able to do better.
My son has a Marlin XT-22 with bi-pod and a Leapers 4-16x50 scope (about $150).
On a windless day he can put 10 shots easily in a 2" circle, about what you've shown here.
He's 11.
I think on a windless day (and windless means just that...even a 5mph breeze will affect a .22 at 100yds) and with ammo the gun likes, most (even entry level) .22LR will shoot 1MOA if you are doing your part...which may take years to achieve.
 
#9
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

I`VE SHOT A FAIR AMOUNT AND COMPETED WITH A .22RF.RIFLE METALLIC SILHOUETTE...nra SANCTIONED....CHECKED LOTS OF AMMO OFF THE BENCH.....
FOR A RIM-FIRE... AMMO IS THE KEY...THEY ALL HAVE A SPECIFIC LIKE....DISREGARDING WIND WHICH IS ALSO CRITICAL
IF YOU GET A FACTORY GUN THAT WILL SHOOT 1"MOA AT 100 YDS./M...YOU`VE GOT AN ACCEPTABLE EQUIPMENT FORTAY.....
NOT MANY WILL DO THAT
bill larson
 
#10
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

Must resist....try...don't do it...aw heck...here I go...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">most (even entry level) .22LR will shoot 1MOA if you are doing your part</div></div>

Unless y'er using bulk ammo and have a "tupperware" plastic stock with a "pencil" barrel.
Then ya'll be lucky to throw 3 inch groups at 25 yards!
AR15firing.gif
 
#11
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

It takes a hi end .22, top shelf ammo, excellent technique, and perfect weather to consistently shoot 1" at 100. Every one on the internet claims to have a MOA at 100 .22, but I never see them at the range. In my experence .5 at 50 equals 1.5 at 100 with a .22. Your groups look typical for an out of the box .22 with mid level ammo.
 
#12
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

Just keep at it while testing different ammo (subsonic I would suggest) to find what works best in your new .22... When you find the ammo that your rifle likes your groups will tighten up and you will have become very familiar with your new rifle, which is always a combination for success.
smile.gif
 
#13
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

I think that folks confuse raw mechanical accuracy with marksmanship consistency as the primary requisite for a trainer.

Some accuracy is needed to allow performance to be judged more on skill than on random average, but consistency is the key trait that will signal a shooters performance as improving, plateauing, or deteriorating. Reasonably good mechanical performance, coupled with reasonably reliable/repeatable ammunition performance is all that is really necessary.

In some respects, larger groups may give a better basis for assessment of human skills, because those larger groups may show variances more clearly. I.e. a 10% difference with a .4" group may be nearly indistinguishable to the naked eye, while the same 10% variance in a 2-3" group can be far more readily apparent. Holding a fist up to a group can help with gaging the latter rather more easily than the former.

Periodic practice provides the combination of our application of marksmanship principles and the consequences thereof, as a barometric reading of one's current level of expertise. It is something that can be judged at a glance rather than submitting itself to painstaking measurement. It's not about numbers, it's about gut-level confidence.

Allowing oneself to get hung up over exquisitely small groups rather greatly defeats the importance of simply gaging one's overall current abilities. It's not about raw mechanical accuracy, it's about consistently excellent human performance.

Greg
 
#14
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

As usual Greg makes an excellent point,and explains it perfectly.

I noticed Janus's groups were pretty consistent but completly failed to expound on it other than, "yeah that's typical".

I see 4 pretty consistent groups. It appears Janus can shoot, to me. So evidently the rifle is doing about what it is capable of doing.


As to many out of the box 22's shooting 1moa, well let's just say I may have a firmer grasp of whether that is true than your average shooter.

We have had more than one thread arguing the definition of "1MOA" rifle. Let me say it again as I have said in the past threads. A rifle in 22lr that will average 1MOA, is an exceptional creature.
One thing is for certain, the internet has created a hell of a lot of myth about certain firearms.

An 11 year old that can out shoot a grown man? Seen it, I can show it to you every month from March-October. His skills have been talked about in the 22TSC at Conover thread for 3 years now. I am sure your kid is shooting that Marlin to every whit of the rifle's ability, and he has skills. Kids will surprise you. .......What else you got?
 
#15
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

OK, here I go...

You can get a lot more than that out of your setup. Bed it and make sure you have a good crown and that you barrel is up to snuff. Your trigger should be under 2 lbs. I will let my pic speak for itself. If I get a group much bigger than an inch, something is wrong.

100yardtarget.jpg
 
#16
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

armorpl8chikn...I agree there is a lot of exaggeration on the 'net.
Not long ago I myself took someone to task for making the claim that they could shoot sub 1moa 'all the live long day' (their exact words) with an out of the box Savage.
And I feel I must add some caveats to my claim that 1moa is possible from the lowly .22, and it doesn't necessarily have to be an Anschutz.
First, properly bedded stock.
Second, knowing how to use your support, whether it me a bi-pod or bags.
Third, a decent scope, with enough power. As I mentioned there are those who will tell you my %500 Hawke is at the low end quality-wise. Much as I hate to say it (because it's all I can afford at the moment), they're right. And for precision shooting I find myself using at least 15x...those who tell you they can shoot 'one holers' at 100yds with 9x or less consistently are fibbing, IMO.
Fourth, ammo, ammo, ammo. Some just will shoot better in a particular gun than anything else.
Fifth, wind. As I mentioned, wind plays a huge factor. I live on the prairies where most good days the wind is 'only' blowing 5-10mph. That means 1.5" groups. 1moa with a .22 needs NO WIND.
Finally (and this is where we really lucked out) tutelage. I have a relationship with our local police dept's tact team. On it is a world renowned sniper and they have given us lots of hints. In truth this has probably meant more than anything else. Having a bad habit pointed out is worth $100's of dollars of ammo.
And yes, I am extremely proud of my son...he outshoots most adults at our range on a regular basis. He just seems to have a knack for it. In his first province wide archery competition last year he came in 2nd out of 16 shooters, all of whom were older than he.
I've decided that as he gets older I've got to remember not to piss him off ;-)
 
#17
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

You and your gun can do better. Like others have said, experiment with better ammo, you might try a trigger job, and you can never have good enough technique. Having said that, when the Hide becomes a standard of comparison you will be forever humbled on both your shooting and your set up, which is why I'm here so often.
 
#18
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

Kids have better eyes, and girl-kid have better eyes and better patience. Guy-kids are all about getting to the next shot, girl-kids are about not needing to.
 
#19
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kids have better eyes, and girl-kid have better eyes and better patience. Guy-kids are all about getting to the next shot, girl-kids are about not needing to. </div></div>
Ain't that the truth! My 14 year old daughter has placed 2nd and 3rd multiple times at my local 1k and 600 yd matches.
 
#20
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

I shoot a stock fv sr with a bipod benchrested at 200 with groups about a 1 dollar coin size shooting remington golden bulk. (also swapped the base a DIP 25MOA, so not tech. stock) I always have 1 flyer in groups over 5. I did NOT calculate the flyers for the above.
 
#21
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

I cant shoot 1 inch or under in tough conditions but when the weather is favorable I can,,

shot these two five shot groups at 100 yards with CZ455V in a Klinsky stock and Bushy 3200 Elite 10X scope..

main thing is ammo and wind,,these were shot benchrest with Lapua Midas+

shot group on left and went 12 clix right and shot the group on the right.
with SK Standard+ I would feel good about claiming it will shoot 1.25 at 100 yards

4102012310.jpg
 
#22
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kids have better eyes, and girl-kid have better eyes and better patience. Guy-kids are all about getting to the next shot, girl-kids are about not needing to. </div></div>

Ditto on that. My son has 20/40 and is an amazing shot.
 
#23
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

I am running:
force productions 10/22
shooters ridge stock
shilen select match barrel
kidd bolt
kidd single stage trigger
butler creek pod
4-16x40 cheapo center point

federal auto match:
I was getting inch to inch and a half 100yd 10 shot groups.
cci velocitors:
3-5" 200yd groups... prone.
 
#24
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

Did not read all replies, but ammo and wind are the two biggest factors in shooting at 100 and beyond, doping wind with 22lr is everything past 50 or 60 yards
 
#25
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CZbob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple things come to mind.
How many shots on the barrel?
</div></div>

Not really a big deal until you get to about 50,000 shots. At that point, I think you will know how well the gun shoots. So let's rule out the barrel right now. This is 22LR, not a centerfire.
 
#26
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In some respects, larger groups may give a better basis for assessment of human skills, because those larger groups may show variances more clearly. I.e. a 10% difference with a .4" group may be nearly indistinguishable to the naked eye, while the same 10% variance in a 2-3" group can be far more readily apparent. Holding a fist up to a group can help with gaging the latter rather more easily than the former.
</div></div>

I am going to disagree completely with this. When a gun doesn't group well, the small differences that can result from poor form are going to wash out. Shooter inaccuracy is hidden by the gun's inaccuracy. Inaccurate guns lead to shooter sloppiness as the shooter decides no matter what they do, they can't get the bullet to go where they want it.

I think highly accurate guns are more appropriate for learners, but I am probably in the minority on this one.
 
#27
Re: Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am going to disagree completely with this. When a gun doesn't group well, the small differences that can result from poor form are going to wash out. Shooter inaccuracy is hidden by the gun's inaccuracy. Inaccurate guns lead to shooter sloppiness as the shooter decides no matter what they do, they can't get the bullet to go where they want it.

I think highly accurate guns are more appropriate for learners, but I am probably in the minority on this one. </div></div>I agree with Carter on this. If the shooter introduces 1/2 moa of error into a proven 1/2 moa gun, the difference is easily seen on paper. If a shooter introduces 1/2 moa of error into a 2 moa gun, it is much harder to tell.

I was told the same thing a few years back when I got serious. I was told that a stock Remington SPS was going to teach me more than an AW, and that I would need to shoot the barrel out in the Remington before my shooting would progress to the point where I could appreciate the AW. I disagreed with the logic, bought the AW, and within the first week I could see that I was a more accurate shooter already than the Remington was allowing me to be. Fast forward to now and I have just about burned out the barrel on that AW shooting it since then, and I do feel like I got a lot more out of it than if I had stuck with the Remington.

Long story that I should have made shorter, and I should clarify that the SPS is not a piece of shit, it just wasnt the same level of gun, the mechanical accuracy was not as good and the comfort of the non adjustable Hogue was hindering me as much if not more than the barrel.
 
#28
bm11 said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I am going to disagree completely with this. When a gun doesn't group well, the small differences that can result from poor form are going to wash out. Shooter inaccuracy is hidden by the gun's inaccuracy. Inaccurate guns lead to shooter sloppiness as the shooter decides no matter what they do, they can't get the bullet to go where they want it.

I think highly accurate guns are more appropriate for learners, but I am probably in the minority on this one. </div></div>I agree with Carter on this. If the shooter introduces 1/2 moa of error into a proven 1/2 moa gun, the difference is easily seen on paper. If a shooter introduces 1/2 moa of error into a 2 moa gun, it is much harder to tell.

I was told the same thing a few years back when I got serious. I was told that a stock Remington SPS was going to teach me more than an AW, and that I would need to shoot the barrel out in the Remington before my shooting would progress to the point where I could appreciate the AW. I disagreed with the logic, bought the AW, and within the first week I could see that I was a more accurate shooter already than the Remington was allowing me to be. Fast forward to now and I have just about burned out the barrel on that AW shooting it since then, and I do feel like I got a lot more out of it than if I had stuck with the Remington.

Long story that I should have made shorter, and I should clarify that the SPS is not a piece of shit, it just wasnt the same level of gun, the mechanical accuracy was not as good and the comfort of the non adjustable Hogue was hindering me as much if not more than the barrel.
Click to expand...

I agree, you are not going to shoot well, no matter what, from a inaccurate rifle. Now leaving alone the SPS and the AW, I rather speak in a general manner. How will you know you are doing better if your groups are still just as crappy as when you first started? Or we are talking extreme spread, then would you buy such an inaccurate rifle to start with. Save money a bit longer if you are short in cash and get something that shoots decently, or well. Better if you have good shooters showing you what YOUR rifle can do, so you know what to look for, in terms of improving YOUR shooting. Buy once, cry once checks.
Good shooting.
Ombre noire
 
#29
I have a Savage MK-II TR and the groups I get are nothing to speak of regardless of what flavor of
Ammo I run through it. ( Federal, Wolf, Winchester, Eley, etc ) Rings and Optic are Leu Mk-IV's.
Run it with a rear bag and bipod.

Yeah, I know. MK-IV on a .22lr ?! I had a spare one in the safe, figured I would put it to use :D

The range I use has a sea-breeze of 10-15 mph winds at all times. There is never a no wind day.
Typical wind direction is anywhere from 3 0'clock to 6 o'clock. Wreaks havoc on the .22 I think.


My other rifles I can do .5 MOA so I don't -think- it's me. But, wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
 
#32
clmayfield said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CZbob</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A couple things come to mind.
How many shots on the barrel?
</div></div>

Not really a big deal until you get to about 50,000 shots. At that point, I think you will know how well the gun shoots. So let's rule out the barrel right now. This is 22LR, not a centerfire.
Click to expand...

I think he was probably asking if it is new, not worn out.
 
#33
If you have a .22lr that can shoot between 1" and 1.2" at 100 yards then you have an exceptional rifle. The trick here is to not fool yourself into thinking you have a rifle that can shoot 1" to 1.25" groups. Shooting one or two 1" groups at 100yds with your .22lr doesn't mean that your rifle is a 1 to 1.25 MOA capable rifle. Far too many people shoot a single group that is a nice group and all of a sudden label their .22lr rifle a sub moa gun at 100. Can some guns do it? Yup, but they are few and far between and usually cost $1k to $2k for the rifle and you gotta be willing to shell out the dough for good ammo. Inexpensive rifles that can TRULY shoot MOA or sub MOA are extremely rare.

Posting a photo of your single target proves nothing more than you shot a SINGLE great group. Put up a target with 4 separate groups on it that are all MOA or better at 100yds, then you'll have something. I have a few Anschutz target rifles and I get some .75" groups (very few) and I get some 1.5" groups, but most seem to hover around 1.125" and 1.25". I am happy with that because I know that is the reality of .22lr at 100yds out of great guns.
 
#34
This is a great thread. As a newbie trying to start into real marksmanship I decided to start a Savage MKII FV-SR build to learn the basics on. I was under the impression that these are fairly precise rifles out of the box and would be great to learn on. From all the internet reviews and keyboard jockies I was lead to expect it to be a 1MOA rifle at 50 yards with good ammo. Figured that way if the groups were bigger i'd know it was me and could see progress as they get smaller. If the rifle is gonna be all over the place then i'm not clear on how i could gauge progress. My savage is in the process of being shipped now but i sure hope to get lucky and get one of the few cheap accurate rifles people talk about. :D
 
#35
Shoot good quality ammo out of that Savage and you'll be rewarded with nice groups. Don't expect cheap ammo to shoot to 1 MOA. The only exception to that is CCI Standard Velocity. Generally that shoots ok. But if you want the best groups generally you've got to step up to match ammo. SK Standard Plus at a minimum. My Savage MKII BV can hang with my Anschutz's on most days.
 
#36
icentropy said:
This is a great thread. As a newbie trying to start into real marksmanship I decided to start a Savage MKII FV-SR build to learn the basics on. I was under the impression that these are fairly precise rifles out of the box and would be great to learn on. From all the internet reviews and keyboard jockies I was lead to expect it to be a 1MOA rifle at 50 yards with good ammo. Figured that way if the groups were bigger i'd know it was me and could see progress as they get smaller. If the rifle is gonna be all over the place then i'm not clear on how i could gauge progress. My savage is in the process of being shipped now but i sure hope to get lucky and get one of the few cheap accurate rifles people talk about. :D
Click to expand...
I bought my daughters one recently and have found the slower match and subsonic ammo more accurate than high velocity offerings. the Hard part for 22lr match ammo is justifying 20 bucks for 50 rounds of 22lr right now but they love it
 
#37
Trental said:
Shoot good quality ammo out of that Savage and you'll be rewarded with nice groups. Don't expect cheap ammo to shoot to 1 MOA. The only exception to that is CCI Standard Velocity. Generally that shoots ok. But if you want the best groups generally you've got to step up to match ammo. SK Standard Plus at a minimum. My Savage MKII BV can hang with my Anschutz's on most days.
Click to expand...

Ditto on above. Good ammo out of a Savage MKII (with a good shooter) will be a 1MOA rifle or better more often than not on a good day. However, one thing I do not see discussed is, out to what distance? My Savage that is a 1 MOA or better (typically .9-1.0) at 100 becomes more like 4-5 MOA at 330 yards. More than that at 400 yards.
The further you go, the worse the MOA is, which can be said for most anything but it's worse with a .22.
 
#38
Tempest 455 said:
Ditto on above. Good ammo out of a Savage MKII (with a good shooter) will be a 1MOA rifle or better more often than not on a good day. However, one thing I do not see discussed is, out to what distance? My Savage that is a 1 MOA or better (typically .9-1.0) at 100 becomes more like 4-5 MOA at 330 yards. More than that at 400 yards.
The further you go, the worse the MOA is, which can be said for most anything but it's worse with a .22.
Click to expand...
Ditto on the above? Trental is actually making sense. Your post is complete internet cliche and bullshit.
 
#41
I think he's saying that expecting a typical MKII to be a 1MOA with good ammo is unrealistic and wrong. But i also think someone is missreading trental's post as i got the same thing you did and thought trental ment that with cheap ammo it wouldn't be BUT with quality match ammo that the gun likes it would. Not sure if we missunderstood or Ricos did. Eitherway, Ricos seems to be the tactless grumpy ol man of the forum? :D

One thing that stands out to me and that's everyone seems to be taking this their own way. Some are talking about wind, optics, shooter skill, support bags or bipods introducing innacuracy and that maybe the case but should have nothing to with the answer to the how accurate are these rifles themselves. it should be taken as on a perfect windless day, either clamped down or with a perfect shooter, using it's favorite ammo at 50 yards. That would tell you approx how accurate the rifle really is without introducing all the other variables.

The other thing is everyone one that does range reports and reviews on these rifles then posts them up seem to show great 1MOA or better groups with the ammo they like BUT I haven't read any range reports and reviews stating the opposite (That they don't hold groups or are 2MOA rifles with match ammo at 50 yards? Mostly those are the "what am i doing wrong" or " i was using bulk ammo i had laying around" threads.

Just the way things look to a newbie. Either way, I have to admit I am a bit disapointed with what i'm learning. If match .22 ammo is almost $20 a box of fifty as stated above. Is that really cheaper than reloading your own centerfire ammo? if not then how does the .22LR training rifle concept fit in? I have many boxes of Federal Champion (525rd boxes, copper plated high velocity $14 a box when i got them) that i stockpiled cause it seemed to work great out of my MP15-22, very few FTF or FTE and thought a rimfire rifle would be a good cheap way to train but you guys are basically saying with .22LR the bulk stuff is worthless out of a decent bolt gun? Wouldn't it be cheaper to reload your own and train with a .223 or .308? I'm probably completely missing something here but I'm hear to learn to got to ask the questions.
 
#42
Not all ammo is $20 for 50, I still find good quality ammo for $5-15 for 100. I said match ammo which means MATCH ammo. I bought it to compare group sizes between ammo to see what the rifle likes.
 
#43
As for nobody showing pictures of horrible groups, it's because some people here feel they have to "one up everybody" or be on same level. Most shooters in the real world are barely a honest 1 moa shooter. I can state this seeing as I help coach and train shooters. Some of the worst shooters are hunters. I will be honest though. My daughter's fvsr at 50m with expensive match ammo is holding about .6" group. I couldn't tell you at 100 yet because for grouping a 22 I usually start at 25m & 50m for grouping. At 100m wind start affecting the little guy so that's why I start short. For longer ranges I tend to judge the 22 rifle'sperformance more on vertical dispersion more so than horizontal. Just my opinion
 
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#44
To answer some of your questions. Rules of thumb...

Training: Take the ammo you prefer to use and shoot targets that are appropriately sized to the accuracy of your particular rifle with that ammo. Most everything you learn in training with a air rifle or rimfire translates directly to centerfire. Most anybody can shoot off a rest well, most everyone shoots poorly when it comes to positional shooting, practice where you are week, that's the area that needs the bulk of the work.

These arguments about how accurate a particular brand of rifle is go on and on. Obviously, and on average, "over a broad sampling", a brand of higher quality rifle is going to shoot better than a less expensive rifle. Why is that so hard to except, seriously??? You might have a brand S that shoots 1 moa, good for you! Have fun and enjoy. Another guy has a brand S that shoots like the OP's, so what, shoot bigger targets and enjoy your rifle till, if/or and when you want to spend more money to upgrade.

armorpl8chikn and others, who run precision rimfire matches and have done so for years, and who have witnessed the accuracy, also stats, on average, of what many of the brands of 22 rifles exhibit, are just relaying info to us. I'm glad they do! It's the truth man, frikken deal with it!
 
#45
My Savage FV with a Centerpoint 4-16*40 , bipod, and rear bag will hold MOA at 100 an average closer to 1.5MOA. This is with Wolf match target, bulk Federal is closer to 2MOA. Out to 200 clay pigeons beware. Try some different ammos and see how you do.


Eric
 
#46
Don't care to shoot 400 with a .22LR. Farthest I've shot is 200 busting clays for fun (and yes, it was kinda fun).

I shoot 100-300 rounds of R-50 out of my 40x (AICS, Jewell, etc...) every week. I keep a log of every group, temp, wind, etc... I currently have 1, 278 5-shot groupsat 100 yards on spreadsheet after today. I went through many brands of ammo offerings from Eley (Target, Match, Tenex), Wolf MT, Aguila, CCI, Lapua (Midas +, Polar, Midas M) plus a few I don't remember. I have on occassion posted groups sub-0.5" But the reality is that the overall average is 1.12"

Exact enough for you?

I'm not necessarily grumpy and at 42 I guess I'm old to some. But I am definitely tired of internet drivel about a freakin Savage being an moa rifle "on a good day" "if I do my part" blah, blah, blah. But when they actually get to a range; every excuse in the book comes out as do the 2" plus groups. A 2" group at 100 is not bad at all. But its amazing how when that person gets behind a keyboard the groups suddenly shrink by half. Anyone can cherry pick groups and post them, but that means nothing and helps nobody inxluding the poster.
 
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#47
No...No Rico is not the tactless grumpy old man here, that is my damn job. At 44 I have been shooting for 37 years. I have no patience for what I know to be false. You have all heard what I have to say on the subject so I will not repeat it yet again. When I came to these forums they were rife with Savage fanboys touting the greatness of Savage. Usually they use the wonderful merits of the Savage target actions to expound the virtues of the entire Savage bolt action line including the rimfires. This is not an overt comparison but when pressed hard, they admit comparing the top end Savage performance as proof of Savage superiority over all, or simply shut the hell up. Someone once told them that it is like saying the Chevette, is better than the Mustang GT, because Chevy makes the Corvette. I cannot improve on that analogy as it is perfect.

I am assistant match director for the 22TSC at Conover. It is a very difficult match that will test your equipment to its fullest potential. One Savage has ever won one of these matches in 3 years, that Savage was made by Anschutz. Lots of Savage rimfires have shared the line at Conover they have slowly morphed into CZ's, Anschutz, Winchester 52's, Kimbers, a Cooper or two, and a couple 40x rifles. I have said this before and I will say it again. I would have been fortunate to have the equipment that Savage can provide when I was 11 years old, hunting wiley VA bushytails, but they are not competition winning guns, unless everyone is limited to using a Savage. Sorry if you don't like that but that is the truth. Distance has little to do with anything. If my MPR is shooting MOA today at 100 it is shooting MOA or better at 210, as long as I have a good lot of ammo. I don't shoot paper, I shoot steel. I don't have a folder full of groups to show off but I do have a photographic memory, I wish I could download it for you. I have put 10 consecutive shots on a 6"x8" IPSC target more than once at 240 yds in less than ideal conditions. I didn't plunk at it all day until I got it right either. I have yet to see a Savage perform that feat.

Ammo choice is very important. The shooter is next in importance in rimfire. If we were talking centerfire I put shooter as #1...but we aren't. The rifle is next up in importance. If memory serves no Savage has ever broken the magical "50" sound barrier at 22TSC. I know some might say one particular class of competition does not a statistical sample make. Well come see for yourself and you be the judge. I think some others here could back up my assertion. Every match involves 40 shots for record and at least 16 of them require MOA accuracy or better, and the course is laid out in 4 different distances from 57-210yds. I don't care how good you are, if there is weakness in your equipment, this course WILL find it.

Bring your Savage 22lr to Conover, barrel and action must be untouched bone stock, beyond that trick it out any way you want as long as it meets the rules. I will pay you $50 cash if you shoot a 50 or better, I will pay you $100 if you win. This is not the first time I have made an offer to Savage rimfire owners, haven't had to pay out yet.
 Well March 9th match was the first. The check is in the mail. All past bets and future, pertaining to this offer are now off the table for future matches, this was a one time deal.
 
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#48
You guys are fun :D

Well based on what you guys are saying even a 2moa rifle will be a good practice rifle for a beginner? Maybe not bench rest but prone, kneeling, offhand? I think the main point of the OP's question is basically the same as mine. for a beginner, what is an acceptable level of accuracy of the rifle/ammo combo and is the point when the shooter can shoot better than the rifle the time when the rifle no longer becomes ideal for a trainer? or would you just move farther out so the shooter's ability to read wind starts to ruin the accuracy to the point that you're no longer shooting at the rifle's limits but your own ability to read wind?
 
#49
ice... a consistant 100 yard 2" gun is still shooting very, very well. It is more than sufficient for training purposes in any position... including bench. When that rifle starts shooting larger than "normal" then it is an indicator that there is some operator or mechanical error being introduced and you have the opportunity to diagnose and correct it.

Example... from the OP just from a zero aspect you can tell from the photos that the shooter is consistant. You can also tell that he needs to bump his zero approx. an inch right and 1.5" up.

Second example... from mrbig's photo... his scope is probably not calibrated properly (assuming MOA turrets) since he moved his windage 12 clicks (3") but his average point of impact shifted 3.5" - the fact that he strung two excellent groups together doesn't really matter because he was consistant and the same could've been deduced by 2 larger but equally consistant groups.

apchikn and I have issue with the internet crap because of people like you! People that want to learn and not chase after a fairytale incorrectly and unnecessarily placed in their heads. Our words may sound harsh; but if we don't stand up and yell "bullshit" then it continues.

OT... I kinda think the same about the current political climate!!
 
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#50
icentropy said:
You guys are fun :D

Well based on what you guys are saying even a 2moa rifle will be a good practice rifle for a beginner? Maybe not bench rest but prone, kneeling, offhand? I think the main point of the OP's question is basically the same as mine. for a beginner, what is an acceptable level of accuracy of the rifle/ammo combo and is the point when the shooter can shoot better than the rifle the time when the rifle no longer becomes ideal for a trainer? or would you just move farther out so the shooter's ability to read wind starts to ruin the accuracy to the point that you're no longer shooting at the rifle's limits but your own ability to read wind?
Click to expand...

If you are an absolute beginner then any rifle is better than no rifle. What I will say is this:
When you buy that cheap starter rifle begin at that moment to save your coin. Use your new rifle, shoot it often. Practice with motivation and intent. Save your coin. Shoot some competitions even if you can't be competitive. Honing shooting skills is like honing a knife, those you shoot against are the stone and you are the dull knife. As you compete against the harder competition it will sharpen your skills. Competing against yourself is like kissing your sister. When I began to shoot competitions I was then motivated by those around me to improve. The better shooters you shoot against the better you will try to shoot. Save your coin.

When you have the skills those people you are competing against will let you know if you don't know already. When I began shooting IHMSA I had the low end starting equipment. I was not new to shooting so I had a lot shorter learning curve. At the end of the first season my spotter, himself a veteran IHMSA shooter, told me it was time for me to quit plunking around and buy an XP100, he insisted I was ready to go high end. I was going to try to spend more money on the lower grade equipment, in an effort to eek a bit more accuracy out of equipment I was using already. I took his advice and my scores lept tremendously. When you get to the limits of your equipment you will stagnate in a competition climate.
Now it's time to spend that coin you were told to save. Don't spend money on your old equipment in an effort to make it do something it won't do. Don't believe everything you read from guys that tinker incessantly with their equipment. A bedding job and a new barrel will not make a Savage an Anschutz, just like a new barrel and forend won't make a TC Contender outshoot an XP100. Don't waste your money. I bought a CZ452 and was happy with its accuracy. It would put me high in the running most months but never quite in the winners circle. I was loaned an Anschutz for a match and won, it was time to upgrade. I had spent almost enough to buy a new Anschutz fiddling and tinkering with that CZ in an effort to make it outshoot an Anschutz, wasted money.
Ultimately there is more to winning a match than having a great rifle. It is still up to you to make all the elements work. I get bored pretty easy. I struggle with concentration through an entire match. When I was big into IHMSA I was called the chicken choker. I would miss my first chicken and clean 39 more targets. "If we can get Joe through the chickens he is golden". My spotter knew this and usually went to sleep after the chickens, calling, center,center,center through 30 more targets. Don't think, just shoot. If you you shoot a competition learn to shut everything out until there is only you, your spotter(if you have one), the line commands and the target, NOT the TARGET(S) the target. One target at a time, or one shot at a time. Don't think about lunch, your cheating wife or GF, what the next episode of Honey Boo Boo will be like, what the other competitors scores are, none of that. Watch Bull Durham and The Legend of Bagger Vance and think about applying that to your shooting. You don't have to wear women's garters under your pants....though it may help :D

Buy within your budget, the best you can afford and save for later if need be. Don't scrimp on glass. Come to our match at 22TSC and you will see a pile of glass you wouldn't believe on 22 rifles. My MPR wears a MK4 16x Leupold, same as my big boy tactical rifle. There are at least 3 MPRs at our match that we have to have distinguishing marks to tell apart. Nothing wrong with $1600 glass on a $1200 rifle.

Shoot whatever you get with purpose and learn the fundamentals. That said, even a beginner can appreciate a supremely accurate rifle.
 
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