Expected Accuracy at 100 Yards?

[icentropy]

ice... a consistant 100 yard 2" gun is still shooting very, very well. It is more than sufficient for training purposes in any position... including bench. When that rifle starts shooting larger than "normal" then it is an indicator that there is some operator or mechanical error being introduced and you have the opportunity to diagnose and correct it.

That's good to know. So seems a savage bolt gun would be a decent beginner rifle. I like to think my body mechanics are fairly stable (not great i'm sure but not terrible) and I'm patient but i have no concept of reading wind or experience with bullet drop. I do have a decently logical train of thought and have an ok grasp of the concept of trajectory, etc. (physics engineering minor). I just moved from southern CA onto a rural 160acres in northern WA (800 yard longest shot) and thought this was the time to finally learn how to shoot now that i can practice as often as i feel like it or can afford the ammo. so i was hoping for something that i wouldn't outgrow in a few months.

Second example... from mrbig's photo... his scope is probably not calibrated properly (assuming MOA turrets) since he moved his windage 12 clicks (3") but his average point of impact shifted 3.5" - the fact that he strung two excellent groups together doesn't really matter because he was consistant and the same could've been deduced by 2 larger but equally consistant groups.

golden info. I would've been years from even thinking about looking for information like that. Now i will pay much closer attention to posted targets. I usually just breeze over that and read the details. That kind of mentality is exactly why i'm here to learn.

OT... I kinda think the same about the current political climate!!

meh, i've kinda given up on politics. In the words of a few poets
"Seems sick and it's hungry, it's tired and it's torn, It looks like it's dyin' and it's hardly been born" Bob Dylan
"It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine." R.E.M.

no point in fighting against entropy...

If you are an absolute beginner then any rifle is better than no rifle.

been "shooting" for about 5 years but only pistol and AR type stuff at indoor and a few outdoors ranges, no long distance or precision shooting.

When you buy that cheap starter rifle begin at that moment to save your coin. Use your new rifle, shoot it often. Practice with motivation and intent. Save your coin. Shoot some competitions even if you can't be competitive. Honing shooting skills is like honing a knife, those you shoot against are the stone and you are the dull knife. As you compete against the harder competition it will sharpen your skills. Competing against yourself is like kissing your sister.

First off, kissing your sister? nasty. but i get what you're saying. Unfortunately I'm now pretty rural (outskirts of Chesaw, WA). i doubt there's many/any competitions within decent driving distance to me but I'll have to look around. I will say with the little bit of target shooting my wife and i did when we had time to try out some 3gun classes in southern CA, she did pretty well so maybe i can con her into being my competition

Now it's time to spend that coin you were told to save. Don't spend money on your old equipment in an effort to make it do something it won't do. Don't believe everything you read from guys that tinker incessantly with their equipment. A bedding job and a new barrel will not make a Savage an Anschutz, just like a new barrel and forend won't make a TC Contender outshoot an XP100. Don't waste your money. I bought a CZ452 and was happy with its accuracy. It would put me high in the running most months but never quite in the winners circle. I was loaned an Anschutz for a match and won, it was time to upgrade. I had spent almost enough to buy a new Anschutz fiddling and tinkering with that CZ in an effort to make it outshoot an Anschutz, wasted money.

Thats a shame. My dad and I run a small CNC aerospace machine shop. I was hoping i could take the opportunity and knowledge i get from learning about precision shooting to maybe learn a thing or two about gunsmithing and maybe even branch out a bit and make stuff for a sport i enjoy. My first attempt was going to be bedding the FV-SR savage and maybe putting it on pillars. I was hoping with time i could find inexpensive ways to turn a $250 gun into a "tack driver". (on a side note, the very term tack driver that i've read a zillion times online, after reading this thread and taking it to heart, seems like it's basically like hanging a big sign on my forhead that says "I have no idea what i'm talking about". lol a true "tack driver" would either have to be 25 yards away from the target or a super high end sub.5MOA @100yrds .22LR (if there is such a thing)

If you you shoot a competition learn to shut everything out until there is only you, your spotter(if you have one), the line commands and the target, NOT the TARGET(S) the target. One target at a time, or one shot at a time. Don't think about lunch, your cheating wife or GF, what the next episode of Honey Boo Boo will be like, what the other competitors scores are, none of that. Watch Bull Durham and The Legend of Bagger Vance and think about applying that to your shooting. You don't have to wear women's garters under your pants....though it may help

I was into sportbike racing in college, one of my favorite parts of a movie was in stallone's movie Driven. Not a great movie but the scene where he gets into his grove and everything but his line fuzzes out...priceless. i see exactly what you're saying. quiet "the mad monkey of the mind". Focus on your shot. check.

Buy within your budget, the best you can afford and save for later if need be. Don't scrimp on glass. Come to our match at 22TSC and you will see a pile of glass you wouldn't believe on 22 rifles. My MPR wears a MK4 16x Leupold, same as my big boy tactical rifle. There are at least 3 MPRs at our match that we have to have distinguishing marks to tell apart. Nothing wrong with $1600 glass on a $1200 rifle.

yeah....i think it's gonna take some time before i see myself spending that kind of cash on a scope, BUT i never say never.....but i am a cheap bastard.... the best glass i ever purchased was an ACOG with red dot. almost made my stomach hurt i still haven't figured out how better glass makes for a better shot. i can understand repeatability of the turrent movement, the ability to hold a zero, etc. but the clarity or color of the lenses? I still have a lot to learn...

Shoot whatever you get with purpose and learn the fundamentals.

that phrase is going on my gun case!


thanks for the wise words guys. probably the most informative enlightened thread for beginners i've read to date,

 

[vtwin96]

Thats what the guy I bought the gun could do mine arent so nice

 

[slickab]

I would like to see 4-3" targets on 1 sheet that duplicates that. Sorry, but it ain't happening!!!

 

[armorpl8chikn]

If I spent a couple days at the range, shooting groups with my MPR, and only showed you the targets I wanted to show, I could likely convince you I had the most accurate rifle ever made. If however you had any sense, you would ask me where those other "cull" targets were. At that point the emperor has no clothes.

Mr. Entropy:
If you have equipment and raw material for gun smithing, then some tinkering may be ok. Cheap rifles in that case are prefered, as mistakes don't hurt so bad. I simply want you to understand what is realistic and what is unattainable.
When I owned the CZ I litterally stood at a crossroads before I bought an Anschutz. I had the money for a rebarrel and had to weigh my options. I had heard rumors that CZ's that have had barrel work will stomp Annie's in certain competitions. I could spend another $4-$500 on the CZ, bringing my total investment in that gun to over $1300. Effectively gambling that I could BEAT the performance of the MPR out of the box. I am a poker player, have been for many years, a rare bird called a winning one at that. You win by knowing the difference between positive EV moves, and negative EV moves. Knowing the odds of what you have against what you put your opponent "on". Knowing pot odds and whether the pot is laying you the proper odds for a call, and in what situation.
Building the CZ was a negative EV move against the "known" value of the Anschutz. It's just that simple.
If I had had my own equipment the gamble would only have been slighty less, it would still not be a positive expected value move.
Some people are pure gamblers and my hat is off to them they can win huge, but when they lose it is usually huge as well.

 

[lawrence97]

CCI std vel, wolf match or SK match would probably be a few to test some more. Definitely try it on a no wind day and be as repeatable in your technique as possible.

 

[Tango down]

"If I spent a couple days at the range, shooting groups with my MPR, and only showed you the targets I wanted to show, I could likely convince you I had the most accurate rifle ever made. If however you had any sense, you would ask me where those other "cull" targets were. At that point the emperor has no clothes."

10-4 on that, I could almost convince myself. Then I look at the "not so good targets" and become humble again.
Good shooting.
Ombre noire

 

[bobtodrick]

"If I spent a couple days at the range, shooting groups with my MPR, and only showed you the targets I wanted to show, I could likely convince you I had the most accurate rifle ever made. If however you had any sense, you would ask me where those other "cull" targets were. At that point the emperor has no clothes."

10-4 on that, I could almost convince myself. Then I look at the "not so good targets" and become humble again.
Good shooting.
Ombre noire

That is so true.
I can't begin to count how many times I've been at the range and listened to the shooter that claims he shoots sub 1moa with his out of the box .22 who then proceeds to shoot 2,3 or 4" groups.
"Man it's windy"
"Something must be wrong with my scope"
"I'm having an off day"

My Savage .22WMR shoost about 2"...CONSISTENTLY.
Maybe one out of 5 or 6 groups (I shoot 5 shot groups) are around an inch...and one out of every 5 or 6 groups will push 3".
I have a 2" gun (in my opinion), not a 1".
You can't (again, in my opinion) take those odd groups that are as much luck/happenstance as skill and claim that is what your gun shoots.
Using my personal example...if I claim my gun shoots 1moa (1 out of 5 trys)...it could also be said it is a 3moa gun (1 out of 5 trys). Of course no one ever makes that claim ;-)

 

[Tango down]

That is so true.
I can't begin to count how many times I've been at the range and listened to the shooter that claims he shoots sub 1moa with his out of the box .22 who then proceeds to shoot 2,3 or 4" groups.
"Man it's windy"
"Something must be wrong with my scope"
"I'm having an off day"

My Savage .22WMR shoost about 2"...CONSISTENTLY.
Maybe one out of 5 or 6 groups (I shoot 5 shot groups) are around an inch...and one out of every 5 or 6 groups will push 3".
I have a 2" gun (in my opinion), not a 1".
You can't (again, in my opinion) take those odd groups that are as much luck/happenstance as skill and claim that is what your gun shoots.
Using my personal example...if I claim my gun shoots 1moa (1 out of 5 trys)...it could also be said it is a 3moa gun (1 out of 5 trys). Of course no one ever makes that claim ;-)

Lol...of course no one does.
That's why I never speak before shooting; if I end up with a "1 hole" group and say "I was just lucky", other shooters will say "no man, that's good shooting".
But if anyone brag about how good they are and then shoot a crappy group, they may want to get ready for a truck load of spicy comments from their shooting buddies; it's a cruel world
We are only as good as our last shot.
Have fun and good shooting.
Ombre noire

 

[McCrazy]

We are only as good as our last shot.
Ombre noire

icentropy- ^^ THAT is the quote that should go on your rifle case.

 

[golden_311]

It takes a hi end .22, top shelf ammo, excellent technique, and perfect weather to consistently shoot 1" at 100. Every one on the internet claims to have a MOA at 100 .22, but I never see them at the range. In my experence .5 at 50 equals 1.5 at 100 with a .22. Your groups look typical for an out of the box .22 with mid level ammo.

This is about right. I can get 1.25" - .75" @ 100 with my Kidd supergrade depending on any number of variables. 1.5" - .75" @ 100 with my savage TR that has been worked over scott null at savage gunsmithing, right around and above moa. I shoot either wolf m.e. or Fed Auto Match. (they both love auto match). At 50 yards the Kidd is 1/2 moa, the savage is < 1/4 moa.