Rifle Scopes EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

#101
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

For the Snellen chart, I do it just like I do at the optometrist's office to get a new glasses prescription. Set out the Snellen chart at various distances and have multiple people look through the various scopes to determine the smallest line they can read with each one.

-z
 
#102
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

KSP446,

I own <span style="font-style: italic">a lot </span>of Leupolds' - IMHO they have always had the best price/performance ratio of the American-made scopes. Leupold has always had great customer service and the scopes have worked well for me, but I wanted a FFP scope to mount on a new FNH A3 G. So, sold a BNIB never mounted Vari-X III 4.5-14X 40mm AO Tactical I was going to mount on the A3 G to help fund my new scope.

I was looking at IOR, Leupold, USO, and Schmidt Bender. I was going to go with the SH IOR GB 3-18X 42mm FFP, but decided to pony up the money for an SN3 3.2-17X 44mm Metric. Awesome scope. Great glass. Built like a tank and it shows. Expensive. Do I have regrets? NO.

Will it make me a better shooter? No, only practice and discipline will do that. However, better helps to reduce the possibility of equipment failure and the confidence gained from using better equipment also helps most people shoot better too.

Does it cost three grand to build one of these scopes? No, but stringent quality control and better components do cost more. And, don't forget, companies are in business to make money - a profit is fair and justified. Companies do not invest millions of dollars in manufacturing equipment just so you can have your SB, USO, IOR, ect scope for their cost.

I'm not an operator and never have been - just a shooter for about 35 years. IMO when lives are on the line as in the case of SWAT, HRTs', or the military I feel the operators on the front lines need the best equipment they can obtain.

How about a little teaser...

<span style="font-weight: bold">USO SN3 3.2-17X 44mm Metric EREK, LH Windage US#3 Metric w/M40 Scallops & 35mm tube, Seekins Ultra SlimLines:</span>
SN-33.217XLHWindage1.jpg


Keith
 
#103
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

I was looking for a good scope for almost a year, after ordering a .308 DPMS SASS...I wanted my cake, and on the cheap.

Everything I looked at here kept pointing me upwards, and higher in my price bracket.

$420 for an EoTech...
$1100 For an ACOG w/Docter...

Really wanted a "do it all" scope that was tough, variable, lit, MOA reticle, etc. for under $500 and while there was a lot out there-I thought I would eventually have to break the $1K threshold for real good stuff...

Searched the interenet comparing NF, IOR, S&B, USO, SWFA...you name it. Finally, I found a lightly used SN3 USO scope with EVERY feature I wanted, and the fact that it is probably one of the top 3 sought after scopes here (right?) for $1600.

Again, 3x more than I wanted to spend, but it is a fantastic scope...rifles come and go-right
smile.gif
 
#104
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

One reason for the high cost of the scopes made in Germany & Austria, is the strength of the Euro vs the dollar. I can remember a time when 1 Euro = $0.85 and now a Euro = approx $1.45
 
#105
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

Welcome to the forums. I would suggest against bumping old threads.

Although this is a good thread.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NineHotel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The middle ground is fertile and there for the taking - that is a good mid-power variable, FFP, with knobs matching the reticle and some reticle choices. Just a question of who will step up when. </div></div>

Falcon Optics?
 
#106
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

nightforce scopes work for well me and are much less $ than uso/s&b, from what i hear lots of guys think with nightforce you get more for the money you are laying out..at some point there seems to be diminishing returns on the additional expense
 
#107
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

I used to sell cars for a living waaaay back in the day. And we loved "Image concsious buyers" because they were willing to pay for something they didn't need. Don't be that guy. Are S&B and USO"s the best? absolutely, Are they worth $3,000 IMO no.

It's like Alex Rodriguez, he's the best ball player in the world right now but is he worth 27.5 million a year. No way, nobody is. But someone was willing to pay it. For those of us who are in the majority I.E." never going to be saving lives with a scope" those gray area scopes will do just fine. My .02
 
#108
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

chupa;
You obviously have not seen my rig.
My $2K+ USO rides atop a Savage I built that a good friend refers to as "Frankenstien".
laugh.gif


It's partly about "image" but not the kind you refer to.
I worked my way up through a bunch of different scopes to get the functionality I wanted. I couldn't care less what others think of what scope I run.

NineHotel has made a statement I really like about "good gear being something you forget about because it is working well".....or something like that. He makes alot of sense with this. If a peice of gear is on your mind instead of the shot, it is taking too much of your attention. The USO is the closest I have come to a scope I can forget about when shooting.
 
#109
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

I probably could make due with something in the Leupold's price range, but nothing is available with the features I want:

-FFP
-Illuminated Mil graduated reticle
-Metric knobs in the single/double turn configuration
-Zero stop
-Variable magnification in the (3 to 5)-(17 to 25)x range
-30mm or larger tube

That really only leaves USO and SB...

You can get some incredible deals in the exchange forum. You just need to watch it like a hawk. And don't hesitate when the bargains appear.
 
#110
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

If you're on a limited budget, then sometimes its a choice between having many guns with fewer, cheaper accessories or fewer guns with many quality accessories.

I prefer the latter...
 
#111
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

I was once told that "if your glass cost more than your rifle, then you've probably got your priorities straight." There is always an exception for every rule, but I still find this to be advice worth taking to heart.

A good rifle with great glass WILL deliver.
A great rifle with good glass MAY deliver.

To my way of thinking, a solid S&B, USO or NF strikes me as a good investment for a serious marksman. Are any of these tubes worth an additional $1k over a similarly competent Leupold? Perhaps not, as long as you're shooting on a clear, bright day against a known-distance target -- but I don't tend to be that lucky.
smile.gif


Me? I'll just shell out the extra grand and remove all doubt.

Chief
 
#113
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1sikpupi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">you are better off with a S&B on a Savage than an economy scope on a GAP. </div></div>


Well said.

I like your avatar Army Chief. That guy was such a beast haha.
 
#114
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

No No thats not what I meant at all. I'm just saying don't be the image conscious buyer. Use what works best for YOU and don't fall prey to what's popular. I should mention that as a profession I play golf on the mini tours and I would play with a coffee can attached to the end of a buggie whip if it helped me win.
 
#115
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

Oh and Rafeal I too have a Savage 10FP tactical in .308 topped with only a Bushnell Elite 3200 fixed 10X and it's a wicked stick. So if you have one with a USO I'm sure it's a fine piece of equipment no doubt. I too know what a savage is capable of and am not ashamed to say that I own a "Savage".
 
#118
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

A few years ago, this guy approaches me at the range wanting help zeroing his rifle.
I sat down to his custom-built 50BMG, damn thing was beautiful, and fired a few shots and tweaked the knobs a bit.

After the third shot, I had to break it to him that his BSA scope was not tracking right.
laugh.gif


 
#119
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

I was looking at buying a new-used USO on the SH exchange that didnt have all the features I wanted.Before I did I called USO and talked to them.They informed me the scope housing on the particular scope for sale wouldnt work with one upgrade I wanted and offered to swap out housings for me to get the upgrade done for me.Now thats customer service with a capital "S" and makes USO worth every penny.
 
#121
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

It sounds like some people have some anxiety problems concerning popularity rather than actual optic characteristics.

Another holiday week - so- how about just being thankful that you can afford to buy something you like. If you make 45,000 annually, you are one of the richest people in the world. See here, for instance Rich List . You could donate a few dollars and then buy another scope.

It would be nice to have one of each kind of scope, and those that didn't measure up over time could be donated to a kid that you taught to shoot/hunt. Depending on what you do in your work/free time, you'd probably find yourself narrowed down to the usual suspects fairly quickly. I also apply other tests, like the grandson test. If I buy it now, and leave it in my will, will my future grandson get use/enjoyment out of it as well? And the resale value, already mentioned.

Sometimes it is ergonomics. Considering that the distance between my shoulders and elbows is very small, but my wrists are incredibly large, and this limits me to just a few. And what about the right handed shooters that only have one eye, their left, who have to put the rifle into their right shoulder and then put their face on the other side of the stock? Think too about monacle wearers, who have that extra lens to add clarity and resolution to their system.

Just a few thoughts up front. In the final analysis, I wait until there is a 13.999% consensus here before I buy anything.
 
#123
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

Gopher,

You have to remember the BILLIONS and BILLIONS of people who make only a few $ / day (China / India).

<span style="text-decoration: line-through">Those numbers are easily realistic.</span>

I am having doubts about that website now...
 
#125
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Giddy-Up</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooting is actually not that expensive a hobby. If you don't believe me, go price a bass boat.

</div></div>

This is a point I have tried to make over & over. I am not a sniper, just an occasional hunter & target shooter. But I love to hear "How can you spend that kind of money on a scope!" But the same person owns a ski boat that they use three times a year. It all gets down to what you like to do. I just dropped $2K on a Zeiss scope. I was feeling a little guilty about it, until I really took stock of the things that my wife & I purchase. Most of which will never be around 10 years from now. The point is, that most people feel guilty about spending money on the shooting sports. That is to say that they will make their decisions on what to purchase based on what everyone elses beleives is resonable & practical. For me the bottom line is, If you can afford it than get what you want. You won't regret it. BTW just total up the cost of all the crap you buy that you don't need at COSTCO, Sams Club etc. and there is the price of your new scope, and then some! </div></div>
+1 Giddy-Up! I'll just add that there are some on this forum who bitch and moan that they can't afford a USO or S & B, but from what I have seen on this forum they appear to own, buy, and sell quite a few guns and scopes. I won't mention names but one California shooter who says hes' in college comes to mind. Shit - do you really need <span style="font-style: italic">duplicates</span> of the same rifle? Of course not.

IMHO, owning one rifle for each intended purpose and shooting that rifle is better than collecting as many as you can afford. Perhaps owning fewer guns someone might be able to "afford" a USO or S & B. It would probably allow one to shoot more, which in turn will make you more proficient with each gun. Its' "OK" to own multiple calibers though.

Keith
 
#126
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aries64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

IMHO, owning one rifle for each intended purpose and shooting that rifle is better than collecting as many as you can afford. Perhaps owning fewer guns someone might be able to "afford" a USO or S & B. It would probably allow one to shoot more, which in turn will make you more proficient with each gun. Its' "OK" to own multiple calibers though.

Keith </div></div>

I agree with this.Probably because I do not,and will not blow my money on image or stuff to impress friends.
I have a shotgun,ar15,and sks.
They are all great guns and do exactly what I want.
When I decide someday I need an upper end scope like the USO,S&B,NF etc,etc.I will get one because of the exact purpose I use and want one for.Not because they are the cool thing.
I believe you get the most out of something by using what you have to the fullest.
I also believe most of the time you get what you pay for(NOT ALWAYS).
Just throwing money at something will not produce Gold.You have to know what and why your buying something for it to be a wise purchase.
 
#128
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

I'm going to add my 2 cents not because I know a lot about scopes, because I don't. Never shot with a scope in my life. But, I have done some work in photography and have am an amateur astronomy hobbiest. $3,000 for a good scope? When you spend 6 or 7 K for a camera lens or look at a high end refracting telescope that sells for $6,000 and more, then compare that to a riflescope with the added complexity of windage and elevation and paralax and variable power,etc. you can see how a high end scope can cost 3K.
And someone mentioned testing optics. There's all kinds of stuff that occurs in optics; astigmatism, coma, spherical abberation, chromatic abberation,etc. When you pay for good quality glass, whether a telescope, camera lens, or rifle scope you don't get these flaws or they're kept to the absolute minimum possible.
Btw, next time you're watching a football game and you see a guy run over one of those photographers with that big lens. It probably cost at least $5,000 and the camera probably cost the same. The right equipment for the job.
 
#129
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J.Boyette</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Think about this,

If your wife was held in a hostage situation. Would you want the Sniper geared up with a basic SWS or a state of the art SWS?

</div></div>

If it were my wife, I'd prefer a sniper with basic SWS that is proficient with it and know how to use it, that one with the latest and greatest equipment but with questionable skills. From a practicle standpoint, have the real men in the field really been able to make more effective kills/longer range shots using optics better than Leup Mark 4? My question is not whether you feel more confident making the shot with better optics, but rather HAS it actually made a difference in shots that have been taken (bad guys killed--not paper or gongs hit) that wouldn't have otherwise. Curious to know.
 
#131
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

A LE sniper shot is such a rarity in this country that it would be difficult to find an answer. I can tell from experience that my "latest and greatest" gear has enabled me to make shots in training that no one else on my team could make with their Leupold Mark 4 scopes.
 
#133
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

Wasn't an issue of the scope making the shot but you can't shoot what you can't see. We try to do the majority of our training under varying low light conditions. The leupolds get dark prior to my USO which enables me to keep shooting after they no longer can.
 
#134
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

Hmmm,Lemme get this straight Ive been reading this thread for some timeand what your telling me is I should not get a GAP rifle in 338 and top it off with a Barska .What if it says Tactical on it and has the mil dots in it and it's even illuminated?Really fellas,I dont see your logic here.And what about the holy grail of scopes.Hands down the best optic choice on the planet---------------------The ATN,yep,I went there.My mant years of scope-ology has led me to the the holy grail.ATN rocks,sorry Barska.






grin.gif
 
#135
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A LE sniper shot is such a rarity in this country that it would be difficult to find an answer. I can tell from experience that my "latest and greatest" gear has enabled me to make shots in training that no one else on my team could make with their Leupold Mark 4 scopes. </div></div>

The glass and quality is that much better?
confused.gif

How big is your glass(as in how much light) in comparison 2 the mark4 I wonder?
And at what power setting are you making shots in comparison to the Mark4?
Are you talking about scopes in the same power range for fair comparison in light gathering ability?
Saying your making shots with your scope were the mark4 will not is a hard pill to swallow.
But then again,I don't know much.
 
#136
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

The Mark 4's we have are 3.5-10x40 and my SN3 is a 3.2-17x44. I don't build scopes or even pretend to know how they work. Perhaps it's the coatings or quality of the lenses. All I know is that I can continue to identify which targets we are supposed to shoot and get hits on those targets in lower light conditions than the guys with the Mark 4 scopes.

I didn't think this was the first time this type of comparison had been mentioned here.
 
#137
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

Absolutely the glass is that much better..And Im not only talking about resolution and clarity either..Im also talking about coatings certain manufacturers use. which from a tactical standpoint is not a little better but many times better..I wont go into which companies but I will say some scopes whith icredible glass from europe absolutely suck in bright sunlight and at night when looking at illuminated targets because of severe glare and halos..That is a liability from a tactical standpoint. the coatings on a MK4 lens dont even come close to an USO or S%B.
 
#139
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

<span style="font-weight: bold">"the coatings on a MK4 lens dont even come close to an USO or S%B."</span>



At less than 50% of the cost...............should they?.

For the vast majority of folks on this site, the MK4's are good nuff.

If they would make ONE change in their Parallax system, and the Inof they put out was correct, about their MOA v.s. INCH turret adjustments, most folks could live w/em.

How many are in use in Trashcanistan, and Iraq?.

Compared to their $3k brethren?.
 
#140
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

If we want to talk about cost..nightforce uses many times better coatings too..I personally dont think MK4 lenses are any better than the newer supersniper DMR issued. Hell even the Old Nikon Tacticals had superior lenses for less money. The lower cost USOs have superior lenses for about the same also.
 
#141
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

Arch,
I have put the<span style="font-weight: bold"> NF NXS beside the Vari X III's, and I could detect ZERO difference...none.</span><span style="text-decoration: underline">Nikon, has better coatings than NF................IF we are talking the old 69 series..............</span>

Of course, my impressions are just what I witnessed on that particualr day/s.................

I have bought 4-5 NF NXS, and never even mounted them, when I compared the cost diff, between the Loopies (when they were $700.00/$800.00.....................as opposed to the NXS $1200.00 at the time.................

Now, your POINT is well taken, and NOW, I would...........if in need of new optics, would PAY the extra couple of hundred difference..............because Loopie has put them selves into a NEW leauge price wise, <span style="font-weight: bold">w/out delivering the goods.........</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">You can out lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.</span>


If I was using one in Iraq, or Trashcanistan...........heck yeah.........
NF NXS over Loopie any day.
wink.gif
 
#142
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Phylodog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Mark 4's we have are 3.5-10x40 and my SN3 is a 3.2-17x44. I don't build scopes or even pretend to know how they work. Perhaps it's the coatings or quality of the lenses. All I know is that I can continue to identify which targets we are supposed to shoot and get hits on those targets in lower light conditions than the guys with the Mark 4 scopes.

I didn't think this was the first time this type of comparison had been mentioned here. </div></div>

Like I said,I don't know much.And I don't always know what i'm talking about.
blush.gif

Just having the 44mm vs 40mm would help the USO in light gathering alone I would think,in the same power range anyways.
Then if you added a step up in glass quality(if its there) and scope build quality... There probably is a noticable difference.
Ive never looked through either,or ever worked with them.

Just thinkin out loud.
I would love to look through any of them to compare to my 8X-32X-44mm burris.
Probably night and day difference.
Not sure towards night,But day I can see clear at any range from 100-800yrds shooting so far(1 mile looking).8x is good near dark,But I know getting near 32X, light gathering suffers alot.
 
#143
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

just my .02 here:

The guys on here who do have USO or S&B in their possession have undoubtedly tried other optics before making the choice to upgrade.

You don't see any of them saying "I really made a mistake forking over the coin for that really expensive scope." If you want/need the best there is, then the choice is pretty simple.

To use a Ferris Bueller quote, "If you have the means,... I highly suggest you pick one of these up"
 
#148
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

I am a Leupold fan myself. I have used them for some time and have never had a problem or had one break. That includes carrying them through woods, water, rain, snow, and about any other crap you can think of. I couldn't say if a USO or S&B is worth it because I wouldn't spend that much on something a Leupold will work for. I would save the 2g and spend it on bullets. That would help more in the long run than anything.
 
#149
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

I have both an IOR SH-edition 3-18x42 as well as a USO SN-3 3-17x and 1.7-10x

I've tried using both in gray, hazy, rainy days and really couldn't notice much difference in the quality of the image. They were both fantastic. A couple different leupys were also on some other guy's sticks at the time and I could tell a difference looking through them.

The difference between the USO and the IOR is that with the IOR you have to take what you get. The SH-edition was nice but there would have been a few things I might have changed had it been custom for just me. The USO on the other hand you can get exactly what you want. Also the USO looks and feels a grade higher in quality and durability. Not a knock against the IOR, it's a terrific value, but the USO is just that nice.

No experience with S&B.
 
#150
Re: EXPENSIVE SCOPES!!!!!

I would like to see a USO next to a Leupold just to see the difference. I am having a .338 LM built and am planning on a Leupold but if the USO was that much better it might sway me. It would have to be A LOT better though to justify the price. I don't care about all the options since the Leupold comes with everything I want already, only the overall quality.
I am curious of everyones background. All the shooters I know it seems to go Army likes Leupold and Marines like USO/S&B.
 
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