Guys I'm waiting on the barrel to convert my DPMS over to 6.5 Creedmoor. Which has me really stoked. Finally getting rid of the 308 (I know some of ya'll really like the round but I have my own reasons for not). Anyway I'd like to hear the experiences of the people who have already done this. Also is anyone running 140 grain Bergers? I'm hoping to be able to run this bullet and I took a chance by ordering a chambered barrel rather then a blank and a set of reamers.
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Experiences with 6.5 Creedmoor in a gas gun
- Thread starter Longshot38
- Start date
Re: Experiences with 6.5 Creedmoor in a gas gun
I just got my self a DPMS 6.5 creedmoor 24" 1-8.5 I can't wait for a new scope. I have ask question here in the hide about 6.5 creedmoor and they gave A+ to get it.
Give (Sniper Hide guys) time for them see your post, and they will come to advice.
I just got my self a DPMS 6.5 creedmoor 24" 1-8.5 I can't wait for a new scope. I have ask question here in the hide about 6.5 creedmoor and they gave A+ to get it.
Give (Sniper Hide guys) time for them see your post, and they will come to advice.
Been shooting a 6.5 CM in a DPMS Panther for a couple of years now. 1/2 MOA rifle if I do my part at 100 yds. I have issues with factory Hornady 140g A-Max showing over pressure signs in it though. Every 4 or 5 rounds it will pop out a primer. Killed me in the 2013 Sniper's Hide Cup as the primers would jam up the bolt and eventually the trigger mechanism. It's now back at DPMS getting a once over. Other than that I really love that round/rifle combination.
I have both a GAP-10 and a JP LRP-07 in 6.5 CM.
The GAP-10 had some major teething issues in regards to cratered and piercing primers with both factory 140gr ammo and my own loads which were loaded down to 39.0gr just to try and improve the primer condition; it went back to GAP and they narrowed it down to the larger .080 DPMS firing pin causing issues with the pressure curve in 6.5CM. Their fix was to change the barrel extension and swap to an Armalite bolt that uses a smaller .068" firing pin. (Should have the rifle back late this week but I trust they fixed it.)
I just received the JP LRP-07 last week; being it uses the .080" DPMS firing pin I was worried about primer condition given my experiences with the GAP10. It's been to the range once so far and I put about 100 rounds down the tube of both my own loads and factory 140gr ammo and so far I haven't had a single issue with it regarding primers. Then again, the JP is a 22" barrel and my GAP10 is a 24" so maybe the extra pressure & dwell time in the GAP10 with the longer barrel was exacerbating the primer issues.
Regardless, the Creedmoor case design in both 6mm and 6.5mm is great in a gas gun where you're limited to 2.800 OAL by the magazines. They load to mag length easily and feed nicely.
You can read about my 6.5 GAP10 issues/experiences here including a bunch of input from George @ GAP: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...vy-swipes-2-pierced-primers-factory-ammo.html
Regarding bullet selection, I'm using the 140 Amax right now but George mentions his favorite 6.5 in gas guns are the Berger 130's.
The GAP-10 had some major teething issues in regards to cratered and piercing primers with both factory 140gr ammo and my own loads which were loaded down to 39.0gr just to try and improve the primer condition; it went back to GAP and they narrowed it down to the larger .080 DPMS firing pin causing issues with the pressure curve in 6.5CM. Their fix was to change the barrel extension and swap to an Armalite bolt that uses a smaller .068" firing pin. (Should have the rifle back late this week but I trust they fixed it.)
I just received the JP LRP-07 last week; being it uses the .080" DPMS firing pin I was worried about primer condition given my experiences with the GAP10. It's been to the range once so far and I put about 100 rounds down the tube of both my own loads and factory 140gr ammo and so far I haven't had a single issue with it regarding primers. Then again, the JP is a 22" barrel and my GAP10 is a 24" so maybe the extra pressure & dwell time in the GAP10 with the longer barrel was exacerbating the primer issues.
Regardless, the Creedmoor case design in both 6mm and 6.5mm is great in a gas gun where you're limited to 2.800 OAL by the magazines. They load to mag length easily and feed nicely.
You can read about my 6.5 GAP10 issues/experiences here including a bunch of input from George @ GAP: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...vy-swipes-2-pierced-primers-factory-ammo.html
Regarding bullet selection, I'm using the 140 Amax right now but George mentions his favorite 6.5 in gas guns are the Berger 130's.
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I did what you're doing. I divested myself of the 308 and moved to the Creedmoor (though I took a jaunt down the 6.5 Grendel lane in the interim). I thought I might regret leaving the .308, but a year or so into the Creedmoor the only time I miss the 308 was when I shot blanks at New Year's or launched golf balls with the homemade golf ball launcher from the FAL.
Thanks Kiba,
This is really good gouge! I'll see what DPMS comes up with and based on that I may share what you've discovered about Firing Pin diameters.
It was certainly a learning process and a lot of good info became of it. George and the gang are very confident the Armalite bolt & .068 firing pin solved all the issues; where previously the rifle was badly cratering primers with very light 39.0gr loads with the Armalite bolt & firing pin they were able to run loads hot enough to flatten the primers without showing any signs of cratering. I'll confirm hopefully this weekend if I get the rifle back on Friday.
Of course, your mileage may vary-- while my GAP10 had more than its fair share of problems running 140's with the .080 firing pin the JP seems to have no such troubles running 140's with a .080 firing pin. With factory 140's fired out of the JP about 75% of the fired rounds come out with perfect appearing primers and about 25% exhibit a slightly raised thin ring around the firing pin strike-- but they're perfectly smooth with no burrs and very minimal in height, only a couple of thou. With the GAP10 with the original bolt the cratering around the firing pin strike was very jagged and quite high-- so high that many of the fired cases wouldn't fit in my Redding shellholder.
Just something to keep in mind running the heavier 140 bullets & H4350 in 6.5CM out of a gasser.
Of course, your mileage may vary-- while my GAP10 had more than its fair share of problems running 140's with the .080 firing pin the JP seems to have no such troubles running 140's with a .080 firing pin. With factory 140's fired out of the JP about 75% of the fired rounds come out with perfect appearing primers and about 25% exhibit a slightly raised thin ring around the firing pin strike-- but they're perfectly smooth with no burrs and very minimal in height, only a couple of thou. With the GAP10 with the original bolt the cratering around the firing pin strike was very jagged and quite high-- so high that many of the fired cases wouldn't fit in my Redding shellholder.
Just something to keep in mind running the heavier 140 bullets & H4350 in 6.5CM out of a gasser.
I had a POF in 6.5 Creedmoor. One of the few made by them for this caliber. It never fed correctly and I also had problems with cratering and a rare pierced primer. It seemed to be over-pressured and the brass came out mangled and deformed.
I got rid of that gun and am going to try a JP LRP-07.
I believe GAP uses some POF parts but just to be clear I have not had issues with my GAP-10 in 308win.
I got rid of that gun and am going to try a JP LRP-07.
I believe GAP uses some POF parts but just to be clear I have not had issues with my GAP-10 in 308win.
I converted my .308 LAR DPMS with a 26 inch Kreiger in 6.5 creedmore. So far I have only run 120's with no issues whatsoever. They feed perfectly from factory steel, or p-mags.. Have 140 Amaxes and some Sierras to reload now so we will see how the primers hold up. It shoots sooooo nice and will do less than .5 moa so far.
I have some 123 class bullets and I am now running very low on H4350.
Has anybody used RE15 with smaller bullets (123-130 gr) through a gas gun?
Has anybody used RE15 with smaller bullets (123-130 gr) through a gas gun?
It was the Fulton barrel. It showed up in two days... no wait, no muss, no fuss... It is the 1-8 twist. I don't know what issues that will cause with 120's. They are all I have shot so far but I have not pressed them out past 600 yet. Seems to shoot the crap out of them under 600.
Sounds like a good barrel.
The 123SMK is 1.292 inches long so you need a 1:8 twist to make the 1.5 stability factor around sea level..Weight matters little.
The 120 I shoot is 1.070 and a 1:11 twist gives a 1.66 factor.There is no advantage for me to overspin the bullet with a 1:8,only disadvantages.Of course if I wanted to shoot a longer bullet then I would need a 8.5 or 8 twist.
The 123SMK is 1.292 inches long so you need a 1:8 twist to make the 1.5 stability factor around sea level..Weight matters little.
The 120 I shoot is 1.070 and a 1:11 twist gives a 1.66 factor.There is no advantage for me to overspin the bullet with a 1:8,only disadvantages.Of course if I wanted to shoot a longer bullet then I would need a 8.5 or 8 twist.
As a follow-up, I got my JP LRP-07 6.5 Creedmoor and it was a real pleasure to shoot. The recoil is surprisingly low with the Cooley brake and recoil spring setup. No problems with malfunctions at all. I did have one pierced primer out of 130 rounds with factory 140AMAX but it was 95F and I've had the same problems in the past even with my bolt gun when it gets in the high 90s depending on the lot.
I was able to make some hits on a man sized steel target at 1140 yards, but I would stay my personally max effective range for the LRP-07 is 900-1000 yards for that sized target.
Overall, I shot lots of AR10s in different platforms and the JP Enterprises one is definitely the best by far.
I have some 140 Berger hybrids that I will be trying in the next few weeks.
I was able to make some hits on a man sized steel target at 1140 yards, but I would stay my personally max effective range for the LRP-07 is 900-1000 yards for that sized target.
Overall, I shot lots of AR10s in different platforms and the JP Enterprises one is definitely the best by far.
I have some 140 Berger hybrids that I will be trying in the next few weeks.
More updates from my 6.5 LRP-07 as well; I have about 230 rounds down it so far with zero primer issues. I have had a couple of failures to eject but adjusting the gas block and cleaning the extractor took care of that.
I ran into the velocity limits of the factory 22" barrel at 2735fps with 140 Amax & 42.2/42.3gr H4350. I loaded 4 rounds each between 42.0gr and 42.5gr in 0.1gr increments. I combined all the chrony data for the 42.2 thru 42.5gr groups and while there were a couple of rounds in the 2745fps range those 16 rounds combined had an SD of 10fps even though the charge weight varied by 0.4gr. 42.3 seems to be right at the limit for that bullet/powder/barrel combo.
It was accurate out to 1080Y which is as far as I've tried so far; I had no problems getting on and making hits on an 8" steel plate.
Looking forward to Berger releasing the 130 Hybrid-- should be a great bullet out of a gas gun where magazine length issues hold you back from chasing the lands with VLDs. The 130 Hybrid is .292 G7 BC (close to the 140 Amax at .299 G7) and I'm hoping I'll be able to get at least 2825 and possibly more from them out of the 22" JP barrel. The 130 should also be a little easier on the gas system & primers than the heavier 140s.
I still need to do more load development on my GAP10 now that it's back with the new Armalite bolt but I robbed the scope off the GAP10 for the JP. I need to pick up another scope for the GAP10 and continue with load development but I have a feeling with the new bolt & smaller firing pin I can get 2760-2770 out of the 140 Amax safely with the 24" barrel.
I ran into the velocity limits of the factory 22" barrel at 2735fps with 140 Amax & 42.2/42.3gr H4350. I loaded 4 rounds each between 42.0gr and 42.5gr in 0.1gr increments. I combined all the chrony data for the 42.2 thru 42.5gr groups and while there were a couple of rounds in the 2745fps range those 16 rounds combined had an SD of 10fps even though the charge weight varied by 0.4gr. 42.3 seems to be right at the limit for that bullet/powder/barrel combo.
It was accurate out to 1080Y which is as far as I've tried so far; I had no problems getting on and making hits on an 8" steel plate.
Looking forward to Berger releasing the 130 Hybrid-- should be a great bullet out of a gas gun where magazine length issues hold you back from chasing the lands with VLDs. The 130 Hybrid is .292 G7 BC (close to the 140 Amax at .299 G7) and I'm hoping I'll be able to get at least 2825 and possibly more from them out of the 22" JP barrel. The 130 should also be a little easier on the gas system & primers than the heavier 140s.
I still need to do more load development on my GAP10 now that it's back with the new Armalite bolt but I robbed the scope off the GAP10 for the JP. I need to pick up another scope for the GAP10 and continue with load development but I have a feeling with the new bolt & smaller firing pin I can get 2760-2770 out of the 140 Amax safely with the 24" barrel.
I love the 130gr VLD in the .260 Rem with H4350. I'm getting 2820-2850fps with it from my 22" Bartlein barrel gas gun built by GAP right before the GAP-10. It is stupid accurate.
This is the first I'm hearing of the 130gr Hybrid, and I'm interested, especially if the G7 BC is .292. The existing 130 VLD's are already .282 G7, so it's an easy 1000yd gun. I will be pushing it out this week to 1200yds and maybe further, which will be pretty boring, considering my 16" Grendel is POI for POA in no wind at 1200yds with the 123gr A-MAX factory load, although I must caveat that with the fact that I shoot at much higher altitudes than sea level here in the mountain region, with very dry air and high temps in the summer.
I think the 130gr VLD and Norma are about the best matches you can find for a 6.5mm AR10 action, even allowing the use of a 22" barrel. I'm interested in what the velocity loss would be in a 20".
This is the first I'm hearing of the 130gr Hybrid, and I'm interested, especially if the G7 BC is .292. The existing 130 VLD's are already .282 G7, so it's an easy 1000yd gun. I will be pushing it out this week to 1200yds and maybe further, which will be pretty boring, considering my 16" Grendel is POI for POA in no wind at 1200yds with the 123gr A-MAX factory load, although I must caveat that with the fact that I shoot at much higher altitudes than sea level here in the mountain region, with very dry air and high temps in the summer.
I think the 130gr VLD and Norma are about the best matches you can find for a 6.5mm AR10 action, even allowing the use of a 22" barrel. I'm interested in what the velocity loss would be in a 20".
Here's a picture of a preproduction sample of the 130 Hybrids... G1 & G7 BC are on the package.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...g/179979-berger-6-5-mm-130-grain-hybrids.html
I have a hunch the 130 Hybrid is going to become "the" bullet for the 6.5 gassers-- especially if running a barrel 22" or shorter.
For now I'll keep shooting the 140 Amax until the 130 Hybrids are out-- I don't want to set myself up for disappointment trying to develop loads with the 130 VLD given the magazine length constraints in an AR10. With my luck the most accurate seating depth will be just beyond mag length.
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...g/179979-berger-6-5-mm-130-grain-hybrids.html
I have a hunch the 130 Hybrid is going to become "the" bullet for the 6.5 gassers-- especially if running a barrel 22" or shorter.
For now I'll keep shooting the 140 Amax until the 130 Hybrids are out-- I don't want to set myself up for disappointment trying to develop loads with the 130 VLD given the magazine length constraints in an AR10. With my luck the most accurate seating depth will be just beyond mag length.
I have a box of 6.5 130 VLDs sitting on the reloading bench courtesy of a friend at work. I haven't tested them in the gassers yet but will do so in the next couple of weeks. I don't expect any problems or accuracy issues when loaded to mag length but I have a hunch that with my luck their most accurate seating depth with be just beyond mag length. However, if I never test any set up long for single loading I won't know what I may be missing and be perfectly happy with the mag length loads.
Once I burn through my 140 Amax inventory I'm hoping the 130 Hybrid will be out. I also need to pick up some 140 Hybrids to test in my 6.5 CM bolt rifle; hopefully the accuracy difference at long range vs the 140 Amax justifies the cost difference!
Your 6.5 Grendel chat has me doing some research and I'm liking what I read...
I shoot the 130 VLD's through my LRP-07 at 2755 fps.
This produces great accuracy at 300 so I decided not to chase velocity with this bullet.
I have yet to shoot to 1000. Anyone running a 6.5 Creed gasser, I highly recommend trying the 130 Berger.
I have also start to workup a 140 Amax load with RE17.
This produces great accuracy at 300 so I decided not to chase velocity with this bullet.
I have yet to shoot to 1000. Anyone running a 6.5 Creed gasser, I highly recommend trying the 130 Berger.
I have also start to workup a 140 Amax load with RE17.
I get great accuracy at over 2800fps with the 130gr VLD. I'm ~matching the 142's SMK for wind (2.18 vs. 2.14 mils) and beating them for trajectory at 1000yds with that load.
RE17 and the 142gr SMK for me is like magic for accuracy. Same with H4831 and the 139gr Scenar.
RE17 and the 142gr SMK for me is like magic for accuracy. Same with H4831 and the 139gr Scenar.
What powder are you guys using with the 130s?
I just opened my last 8# jug of H4350... not that I can find more H4350 or anything comparable at the moment!
The range had 8 1# containers of RE17 last Friday when I was there but the guy in line in front of me purchased all of them. 2 minutes earlier and they would have been mine...
I just opened my last 8# jug of H4350... not that I can find more H4350 or anything comparable at the moment!
The range had 8 1# containers of RE17 last Friday when I was there but the guy in line in front of me purchased all of them. 2 minutes earlier and they would have been mine...
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I'm using H4350 with the 130gr VLD. I had a lot of good results with the Winchester 7mm-08 brass sized down (easy operation-feels like sizing once-fired).
I'm going to work up some loads with the 129gr SST because I got a boat load of them at $17/100, and they will just be target fodder for a while.
So far, my GA Precision .260 Rem AR will shoot everything really well, except the 140gr A-MAX. I can't figure that out, but I need to try RL17 with it if I'm going to even bother with it.
I'm going to work up some loads with the 129gr SST because I got a boat load of them at $17/100, and they will just be target fodder for a while.
So far, my GA Precision .260 Rem AR will shoot everything really well, except the 140gr A-MAX. I can't figure that out, but I need to try RL17 with it if I'm going to even bother with it.
I absolutely love my DPMS 6.5cm, and the Hornady 140 AMAX is a winner for a production load. All I need is a glass upgrade and a PRS stock and I'll probably start competing with it in precision multi-gun matches instead of my bolt gun.
Got the AR back from DPMS where they said the chamber was too tight and they relieved it some. Well, still getting pierced and blown primers on the 140 AMax and the pressure seems all over the place as it varied from dead on at 100 yards to 2 mil high. Considering either getting an Armalite bolt carrier group or just trying the 120g AMax. Possibly give the 130g VLD a try whenever I can find some. I suspect I'll go the most economical route first, but I'm getting mighty fed up with having a DPMS that I can't count on.
The heavier 140's just don't get along with the gas guns too well or at least I'm 2 for 2 in that department. I had pierced primers in my GAP10 with 140s and my JP showed some pressure signs (slightly cratered primers) with 140s, both with factory Hornady ammo and even with milder handloads. Both GAP and JP strongly recommended switching to 130s or 123s, so I tried both 130 VLDs and 123 Scenars. Both the JP and GAP love both bullets in terms of accuracy and all pressure signs went away. The switch to the lighter bullets also fixed the occasional extraction/ejection problems when running the 140s.
The .080" firing pin in the DPMS bolt doesn't help the primer issues either. GAP switched my GAP10 from a DPMS bolt to an Armalite bolt & barrel extension (Armalite uses a smaller .068" firing pin) and that made a huge improvement in primer condition even running 140s, you could run loads hot enough to leave nasty swipes and ruin the primer pockets and while the primers were flat on the edge the firing pin impact was perfect.
For rifles with the .080" DPMS firing pin my experience with the JP shows that the larger firing pin doesn't seem to be a liability when pushing 123s or 130s. You should have no problems developing a load with the 123s or 130s that don't show pressure signs that beats a 140 Amax load (that shows some pressure signs) in drop at 1100Y. The accuracy node with the 22" 6.5CM JP was about 2920 with the 123 Scenar and about 2820 with the 130 VLD. The best 140 Amax load in the JP ran about 2705fps but showed minor pressure signs and also had occasional extraction/ejection issues.
After some pierced primers, two trips back to GAP, and some load development, I've decided to leave the 140s for the bolt rifles and stick with 130s or lighter in the gas guns-- I like shooting much more than stripping bolts to remove primer pieces!
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I finally had a chance to shoot the 130 VLDs to 1000 yesterday at TVP.
42.3 grains of H4350 yielded 2830 fps.
One word: "Incredible".
42.3 grains of H4350 yielded 2830 fps.
One word: "Incredible".
