Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

[ELR researcher]

A bit over one month since launch, after some 1500 hits (at most well under 100 of my own in the process of maintaining and expanding), and after a very small handful of suggestions, here’s a site update:

Added a navigation section at the top of each page

Added site-wide search capability

Rifles – up to 61 companies, added <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #3366FF">color coding</span></span> for the major cartridges

Rifle Components – up to 16 action/receiver companies, 10 barrel companies, 8 brake companies, 19 scope/base/rings companies, 18 stock and bipod companies, and 7 trigger companies

Ammunition Components (major work here) – up to 18 brass companies (added <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #3366FF">color coding</span></span> for the major cartridges), up to 19 bullet/projectile companies (plus <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">four matrixes </span></span>going down to the company, product name, weight, model number, and link for 338, 375, 408, 416, 458, and 510 calibers, all in PDF format), up to 7 powder companies, and up to 7 primer companies

Reloading Equipment - up to 61 companies/items

Miscellaneous products – up to 21 companies/items

Gunsmiths – up to 22 companies

Ranges – up to 25

Retailers/E-tailers – up to 22

Training section <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">added</span></span> – 21 companies

Cartridges – up to 27 (with 3 chamber reamers drawings, and many more to come, courtesy of Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Gauge , plus CIP and SAAMI drawing links in the Reloading Equipment/Aids section)

Minimal expansion in Associations and Clubs, Information Sites and Forums, Legal, and Pubs, Articles, and Photos.

News section <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">added</span></span> – this update being the first post. I expect to add more interesting posts shortly and then do a weekly update based on what I can glean from the 100s of linked sites.

Oh…and I <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">added</span></span> the obligatory “Privacy” and “Terms of Use” page.

If you haven’t visited my site yet, please do so (please enter through the home page so we can all see the counter increment). I think you’ll find it to be an excellent start at exactly what it is intended to be, a resource for the ELR shooting community.

Finally, I really need feedback on what I’ve missed, what I’ve gotten wrong, and how the site can be improved to serve you. It’s a non-commercial site. It will get better faster with your help.
Thank you and God Bless!

 

[jrob300]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Biggest negative I see to your site is it starts at .38 caliber. Why no love for the .30 cal guys? Or for that matter the guys shooting 7mm 180's well over 2000 yds.

I know that Tom Sarver would get his feelers hurt if you didn't include the 300 Hulk since that's what it was primarily designed for. I'm pretty sure he's gotten reliable accuracy to *well* over 2500 yds., and I've shot my lowly 22" 300WM further than most guys I know with .338 LM's or 50 BMG's. So how do you determine that ELR starts at .38 caliber?

John

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

John:

An excellent question - seriously! Why start at 338 LM?

I am looking at the hardware that is primarily focused on shooting <span style="font-weight: bold">effectively</span> at ELR distances - as evidenced by the US government's and other governments' acquisition of such weapon "systems". My perception is that very few of the folks that visit this site have the intention of shooting at 600 or 1000 yards in an IBS or NBRSA match. You might be - again, my perception. [As you are probably aware, 6PPC, 6-6.5x47 Lapua, 6.5x47 Lapua and similarily sized cartridges win virtually every match at 1000 yards (benchrest). Folks that are looking for info on those cartridges and platforms have plenty of sites to support them, Benchrest Central and Accurate Shooter coming immediately to mind. That is NOT where my site is focused.]

Frankly, it is also a matter of limiting scope to the most obvious candidates. [Yes, I remember MANY years ago, as a young kid with my first 22, reading the end flap on the ammo box warning users that the lowly little 22 rimfire projectile could reach one MILE - their statement, not mine.]

Going beyond those points, it gets quite argumentative as to which cartridges, and platforms, are intended for ELR shooting. Certainly the 300 Hulk is a cartridge that CAN do that. There are many more. CAN does not equate to PRIMARY intented use. Please don't nit pick me on what I've selected. Use the info if you find it useful. I'm not here to debate the subject.

In any case, thanks for your comment. I suspect it was also on the mind of other folks.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Fair enough. I know the topic of effective range has been talked about a bit here, and my question is always, "What is your intended purpose?" Punching paper or ELR plinking at steel or rocks and dispatching bad guys pose VERY different requirements. Since I am just an ELR hobbyist, the 300WM works very well for what I do, but for the professional who has more serious undertakings in mind, I would totally agree that the 300 Hulk at a minimum and perhaps the 338 Lapua or Norma be the ground floor. That "intended purpose" was unclear to me from your site, but inferred by your follow-up post. Thank you.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My perception is that very few of the folks that visit this site have the intention of shooting at 600 or 1000 yards in an IBS or NBRSA match. You might be - again, my perception. </div></div>

FWIW, I rarely shoot *under* 1000 yds. so no, those matches are of no interest to me. Not sure why you got that impression.

John

 

[Max Owner]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

In your training section it would be nice to see a state abreviation behind the name of the company.

Thanx for taking the time to do up something like this. Helps the new people to find stuff.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Max Owner:

Excellent point - WIP, by the end of the day!

 

[One-Eyed Jack]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

I think you need a statement on your Home page describing the purpose of the site, how you define ELR, and why you are limiting the equipment information (and possibly other subjects) to the ones you've listed.

I gotta point out that Sniper's Hide has a section on rimfires, not often used for sniping. If there is a lot of interest in the ELR website, at times the discussion (assuming there is a users' forum) will likely gravitate to smaller calibers using bullets with high BCs. My 260Rem shoots to a mile, for example.

Good luck with "ELR", I think it's worthy of it's own place on the internet.

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Tag

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Training site location (state) added.

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

One-Eyed Jack:

I'm not prepared to box myself in with such a statement. The home page statement, "...a non-commercial compendium of source links to products, services, and information for ELR shooters and anybody interested, as I am, in this area of firearms technology" is fine for me.

I'm selective not encyclopedic (if that's a word). Semi-pure military/sniper stuff is included as is LR benchrest. Most people are lucky to have access to a 1000 yard range - and those ranges are focused on CMP/NRA high power, F-class, and LR benchrest. The caliber "base" I've selected is somewhat arbitrary as many rifles that are intended to shoot UP TO some number above 1000 yards are chambered for .308 Win or NATO. Sorry, but I have no interest is such stuff - or the MANY fine rifles that run way down into the .223 level and are quite capable of shooting “well” beyond 1000. I recall when I was a kid with my first 22 rifle (22 rimfire) and reading the warning on the end flap of the ammo box, something to the effect that it was capable of going one MILE. I’m not going there.

Frankly, I see no compelling reason to describe the site more narrowly than I have and I am very comfortable with what I've included. I hope that you and others will find the site useful without me "needing" to pigeon hole it any further.

 

[jrob300]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please don't nit pick me on what I've selected. </div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not here to debate the subject.</div></div>


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not prepared to box myself in with such a statement.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, but I have no interest is such stuff</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I’m not going there.</div></div>

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Frankly, I see no compelling reason to describe the site more narrowly than I have and I am very comfortable with what I've included. </div></div>

Somehow, I get the impression that the above proves that you really didn't mean this:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ELR researcher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Finally, I really need feedback on what I’ve missed, what I’ve gotten wrong, and how the site can be improved to serve you. </div></div>

If you did, you have a really funny way of showing it. It would seem to me that you think you already have exactly what you want. Why bait us with the request for our input and then rebut it at every turn? You got some good responses and respond arrogantly and narrow-mindedly.

You have fun with your ego trip.

John

 

[ELR researcher]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

John:

Just today a guy asked me to add the state to the training link lines and I did it - today.

If I am not providing a service you find of value, that is AOK.

God Bless!

 

[aubie515]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

I am going to have to side with John on this thread. You ask for input and you see to dismiss most things that have been mentioned. If you truly wanted input...read more and reply less.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aubie515</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am going to have to side with John on this thread. You ask for input and you see to dismiss most things that have been mentioned. If you truly wanted input...read more and reply less.

</div></div>

Not to mention the blatant advertising and attempt to USE this site to promote your site... which is a sort of an etiquette violation if you asked me. It would be like going to another gun site and saying, "hey everyone come here instead"

 

[Graham]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It would be like going to another gun site and saying, "hey everyone come here instead"</div></div>Except that on some other sites it might work. Here, not so much: Fifteen posts and he's already lost control of blunting whatever criticism came his way about his own knowledge of ELR shooting.

I say we welcome him, provided he can show his knowledge and educate us about ELR, instead of simply dismissing out of hand what others on his Thread have to say.

 

[goober]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Definitely piggy backing on SH to start a ELR gun site and you should really ask the boss if thats ok !!
I myself will look at your site for sure as I have a keen interest in getting out further and further -when i have more money - thats the shitter with ELR as it cost more to shoot per yard

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

While I agree the Boss makes a very valid point, I'll defer to him about doling out the advice on the subject.

I won't comment on the ELR site.

What I will do is compliment the founder on his ambition and energy. It's relatively easy to post up a site nowadays. It's quite another to do it well; and getting it perfect right off the bat just doesn't happen. Took even LL some time to get this site to its current outstanding status.

I suggest we see what we can do to help the new guy along. After all, isn't that what we do here?

I suggest the new guy could be a bit more diplomatic about the advice he receives, too...; couldn't we all?

Greg

 

[jrob300]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ch'e</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thats the shitter with ELR as it cost more to shoot per yard </div></div>

I have to disagree. That was the point that I was trying to make earlier. There is some really cool stuff being done at ranges that up until recently were considered ridiculous, by guys shooting much smaller rounds than those considered "effective" for ELR. If I can learn about transonic/subsonic transition, the changing effects of wind on a subsonic bullet, not to name a whole host of other ELR topics, for $.75 a round, why would I pay $2.50? Or $4.00? I'm not trying to take anything away from the boomers. They certainly have their place and what they do, they do very well. There is something rather impressive about watching someone place rounds under MOA at 2950 yds. in a stiff switching wind. But to simply dismiss all the work that is being done in this arena because someone doesn't belong to some elitist club is a bit narrow, IMHO.

John

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

jrob,

Most shooters (but not all) who have "big boomers" don't have the skill to run them anyway. They think because they have a big stick they know how to use it or it MAKES up for the lack of skill and they can buy their win. Seen it for years in long range BR and tactical shoots or just pleasure shooting out to a mile. It takes alot a skill to CONSISTANTLY put tiny little bullets in the same spot time after time and you dont need a big boomer to join the fun.
Now for the big boomers. Most are capable of much further distances than most shooters are shooting them. I know of a .30 cal mag that will shoot out to 3400 yards plus accurately. I also know the .338 LM will shoot basket ball size groups at 2400 yards and change and MUCH further with the right bullets and barrel combo.
I can see where the ELR guy was coming from whe he started with .338.
Not to say he was right or wrong but the issue is MOST don't know squat about what "is" possible. Oh, they've read about it but never have seen it or done it. Then, there are those who do it with big boomers who think they are the only one's who can because they do...and it can't be learned or taught. just like MOST of the fifty cal. shooter I've ran into over the years. They think "hey, I have a .50 cal. bring it on". Ok I say..let me go get my .260 or the Hulk.
And to a mile I will hand his ass to him in a hat. You can't beat shooting skill and accurate rifles when put into a combo.
ELR is a great sport and WILL grow by a large volume and it should.
It opens doors to new possibilites and advancements into our shooting technology.
Back when to .408 first came out we tested and IMPROVED it over the original case design. Still it could NOT out shoot the Hulk or other big .30's out to a mile in group or score. Now...out to 3000 yards..maybe..but not all the time. Since then the .338/408 and 375's have taken off and the .338/408 I believe after all the pros and cons will do just fine out to 3500 yards right along with the 375. The 375 has better numbers but so did the 408....get my drift.
All the men out there poking at long distances over the years to come WILL stumble on something that works great to EXTREME distance.
It will not always be the biggest dia. bullet that becomes a legend.

We are in the process of testing a new 5.56 and a new "Hulk" case.
It helps knowing where to start and once we get some tests up to show we will be more than glad to share the possibilites we have created.

ELR shooting starts with a positive open mind. If you think about limits your done from the start. Transonic is bullshit to me and ONLY applies to a percentage of rounds fired out of a rifle. The more precise and quality of rifle the less chance of "seeing" the effects.
With the big boomers it takes alot more to alter their flight and ESPECIALLY if it's (the bullet) is coming TRUE out of a custom built rig.
To me, learning and understanding WHY a bullet sometimes dies and does not make it to the intended target is the question. I've seen it several times..you shoot 3 rounds all hits at a mile to 2000 yards then nothing for on or two rounds then there it is again..right on target. Those bullets were victims of something. What?????
So, the more folks we have searching for the answer, the sooner we will find it.
Ultimately these shooting systems will end up in the hands of our PROFESSIONAL SNIPERS and they will be able to hit what they are aiming at at ELR with a much higher %%%%%% of a kill rate.
Until we have man portable laser rifles that have no trajectory or windage out to 2000 yards it still up to us mere mortals to find the answer.
The Hide and other sites make this happen for those who are not as fortunant enough to have a mile range in their back yard or even in their state or within 4 states driving distance.
I've always said it's possible for a guy who never shot long range before to get "hooked" on the sport and become so ate up with it he developes something WE all could use to our advantage.
We should all welcome newcomers so as long as they know the rules.
And rule number one is respect.

 

[winxp_man]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

My only input to the Op would be what Jon said to add the 30 cal in there also.



Aron-

 

[goober]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Respect to your words Tom ! I think part of building rifles for certain distances is the sheer fun of doing it and experimenting .I run a 284shehane and a 260 and both should hit the mile but id rather use a 375 chey tac to "help"make up for my short comings at those distances .Lets face it , its all about making sure your gear does what it should-then you do what you should with your body mechanics -then guessing that wind through the mile zone .It may be easy for you but I cant say that yet .

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Great point sir,
I'm a firm believer in "getting" to know your weapon. Once you learn what it is capable of then and ONLY the should you set a know limitation. I see the .260'shoot out to a mile with ease everyday.
This should be the starting point for the 375. I feel much better bullets are still to come for the .338 and .375's shooters out there.
We are woking on a new .338 and .375 at the moment to which they will be set up to engage targets from 1000 yards to 3500 yards. The total package so to say.
ELR is a great past time for me and many others. The sport is growing and there are alot of great minds and shooters out there to thank for it.
If all things work out will have a new TVP ELR toy to play with and share with everyone here in about a month or so. Complete with pics and video.

Have a great weekend shooters..head out to work on the Head Hunter!

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Interesting site but when I checked it out I found no info on your past experience at ELR shooting. I think when someone has a website on a topic anyone that ventures there is also interested in the background of the site owner. We know site owners such as LL, Tom Sarver and others have credentials that help show their credibility on the subject they create a site for.

Some site owners build a site due to their intense interest in something which helps them learn more. Not questioning your knowledge but you might add that to your site for everyone to get to also know you better. As a resource site you do have a lot of info but as others have said some of the smaller calibers will also perform well past a mile and I'm sure not all ELR shooters shoot the 338 and up calibers.

I guess until I luck into that mile target at TVP with my underpowered sub-caliber popgun I'll just enjoy reading and learning how it's done. Fascinating subject and one that the more you read and learn the more you learn you don't know as much about it as you first thought.

Topstrap

 

[litotes15]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

308 1000 yard shots require 168gr or above from what I've been reading. How much is true?? - thank you

 

[goober]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: litotes15</div><div class="ubbcode-body">308 1000 yard shots require 168gr or above from what I've been reading. How much is true?? - thank you </div></div>155gr lapua scenar does it just fine

 

[notquiteright]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Top-
Once, at Band Camp....

 

[Tom Sarver]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Top,

Your welcome to come to our Sunday/Fathers Day get together.
Basically an open range day for all to enjoy.
Targets from 50 yards to one mile. I would be glad to help you get your "pop" gun to the mile target. We can hang a target or two and shoot for group and score.
Let me know.

 

[Topstrap]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Thanks Tom but have a car show we planned to go to on Sunday. Still planning on coming out to the SP get together the end of July. Hope they still plan to get together.

Topstrap

 

[wadcutter]

Re: Extreme Long Range (ELR) Resources - Site Update

Interesting site.
I have built my own site down here in Australia dedicated to long range shooting. I know how much hard work goes into building and maintaining a site and you are to be congratulated on the good work.