Advanced Marksmanship F-Class t/r and moa....

[memilanuk]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

Regarding whether 1/2 moa is 'good enough' or not...

Some of that has to do with how long of a shot string you use as a metric. For five shot groups, I too look for something a big tighter. Over a string of 15 or 20 shots (I do a fair amount of my 'testing' in local matches at whatever distance I can get) I think being able to consistently hold X-ring elevation is a good sign that the load is holding its own. Tighter is always better as it makes the target 'bigger', but I wouldn't hesitate to take a load that I had plotted a string or three for that was consistently on call and held X-ring elevation.

 

[REELDOC]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

There's nothing wrong with a half minute gun that is shooting a consistant load. If the nut behind the trigger can read and react to the wind and weather conditions he will be amoung the top shooters. For that matter a shooter that can read wind and has a 1 minute rifle and load will be amoung the top. If you have a 308 shooting .25 moa at 1000 yards you best hang on to it.

Butner is a great place to practice your wind skills. Plus the berms make life interesting. Jeff and I have shot at Butner for many years. Jeff got to where he is by practicing hard at consistancy and is a serious competitor. I'm too old, don't get enough trigger time and pretty much just shoot for fun now. The only bragging right I have now is an FTR record from July of 2006 on the palma+1000 match on the old targets when I shot a 448-33x with a 1060-49 2 day aggregrate. The day I shot the record I was testing loads with two different rifles with 2 different loads for each rifle.

Below is a link to all records shot at Butner. First link shows the records for the old moa targets that were replaced by the .5 moa targets. Second is for the current .5 moa targets. You will also find all match scores.
http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/Pages/OldFClassPage.htm
http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/Pages/ArchivesPage.htm

 

[Trevor]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

One final thought I try not to test loads at 100yrds for me the min distance is 300. At 100 anything can happen including some outstanding (individual) groups which may sku the results and mask any vertical that is present in my load. At 300 not so much a true ½ min group will be about 1.5 inches at 300 and any vertical from the load will be evident.

I look at vertical as this is gun and load were as horizontal in ALL shooter and his ability or lack there of to read the wind.

 

[Zilla]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The highest score I know of at 1000 yards is 200-15x.</div></div>

Was that F/O or F/TR? Either way, somebody was having a <span style="text-decoration: underline">really</span> good day

</div></div>

Monte
It was F/O. Mark Walker shot it at Bayou Rifles in Houston last June. The match was NRA approved but not registered, so it didn't count as a national record.

 

[sailhertoo]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

I see where the 300 yard for load developement makes alot of scense.

I heard some folks say a bullet dosn'nt settle down or "go to sleep" until the 300 any way. What are they talking about? Progression?

Edit to add: At least from my experence, it takes alot of work to find a load thats 1/2 moa or better. I problably have 'bout shot my barrel out.

 

[sailhertoo]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">(I do a fair amount of my 'testing' in local matches at whatever distance I can get)</div></div>

Thats a good idea. I have not been doing this. For me, would problably be the best place for load developement because 200 yards is all I have access to for practice.

At 600, so many other things come into play like wind. terrain, shooter error, its hard to know what is affecting POI, the load or the other conditions.

 

[scaxeman]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: REELDOC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For that matter a shooter that can read wind and has a 1 minute rifle and load will be amoung the top. If you have a 308 shooting .25 moa at 1000 yards you best hang on to it.
</div></div>

Amen to both of these statements!

As a further clarification, I do all of my load "confirmation" testing at 300 yards, first thing in the AM. That is close enough to minimize the influence of conditions, and far enough out to start to see the long range potential of the load. Generally speaking (if the velocity is sufficient), if the load performs .25 to .33 minute at 300 yards, it will do well all the way to 1000 and beyond. I stick to 5 round groups to try to minimize the extraneous variables that will mask the actual accuracy of the load (barrel heating up, mirage changes, bag position, bipod footing, etc. etc.) It goes without saying that all of my load testing is done prone, off a bipod... *not* a bench.

Darrell

 

[memilanuk]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I heard some folks say a bullet dosn'nt settle down or "go to sleep" until the 300 any way. What are they talking about? Progression?</div></div>

I think the term you're looking for is 'precession'. I know enough about it to satisfy my own curiosity, but not nearly enough to talk about with any authority. There are a number of books out there that go into varying levels of detail, but if you haven't been to this site yet and/or purchased the book from there... it would be a good place to start.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Edit to add: At least from my experence, it takes alot of work to find a load thats 1/2 moa or better. I problably have 'bout shot my barrel out.</div></div>

Dunno... it takes quite a bit to wear out a good .308 barrel. 3-4k rounds and that may be on the low side... not sure with the smaller targets.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
...because 200 yards is all I have access to for practice.
</div></div>

Thats not entirely a bad thing... I find it useful to do some practice @ short range (100yds) just simply to work on position where the wind *isn't* as much of a factor. Find one of those targets floating around online that have 15 or 20 0.5" black dots, print it out on some good thick card stock and stick it up @ 100yds. One shot per dot. Makes you change your aim point every shot, and you have to re-assess your NPOA every shot... good practice to at any level, and very handy for getting comfortable with a new piece of gear such as a stock or bipod that can have a significant impact on how everything 'handles' under recoil from position.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
At 600, so many other things come into play like wind. terrain, shooter error, its hard to know what is affecting POI, the load or the other conditions.
</div></div>

Some of that comes from time on a particular range, talking with the other shooters (especially the 'locals') as to what to look for and watch out for. Some of it comes from keeping a data book and/or plot sheets with notes & observations written down while its still fresh in your mind. If you can get comfortable with a given range facility, then it gets a lot easier to weed out some of the uncertainties and be able to tell when an off-call shot was due to the shooter, the conditions, or the load.

 

[Criver600]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

The NRA ANY sight record is a 200-19X held by Carl Kovalchik at Quantico Virginia. Thats out of a sling.............

 

[Zilla]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: criver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The NRA ANY sight record is a 200-19X held by Carl Kovalchik at Quantico Virginia. Thats out of a sling............. </div></div>

On a LR target, not a F-Class target.

 

[Criver600]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

Thats right you F-Classers need to step up..............

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DGosnell</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: criver</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The NRA ANY sight record is a 200-19X held by Carl Kovalchik at Quantico Virginia. Thats out of a sling............. </div></div>

On a LR target, not a F-Class target.</div></div>

Humm...19 rounds inside 10 inches, wonder how many of those were inside 5. That's magnificent shooting. It essentially means the shooter re-built his position to a molecular level on 20 consecutive occasions, in addition to having read the wind superbly. Remember, if this score were transcribed to an F-class target, the shooter would have posted a 199 and something-from a sling support. That's simply awesome no matter what perceptions you have for what good shooting is all about.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

Yep, its damn good shooting, any which way you slice it.

An interesting point though... since the move to the small targets, I haven't seen as many sling shooters try their luck on it with iron sights. I have seen a few convert to scope & bipod and try that route with varying degrees of success. Most seem to find it a lot more challenging that they thought it would be - not to say shooting a sling well isn't hard, but that there is more to shooting a bipod well than some people think. Really good shooters seem to do both well - I believe Brad Sauve is on the Palma development team, and Michelle Gallagher and Emil Praslick both did pretty darned good @ FCNC this past fall. Danny Biggs has shot on the Veterans Palma team a couple of times, and he's doing better than 'well' the last couple years @ FCNC

Some ability @ sling shooting isn't necessarily a prereq for shoting F/TR well, but it sure doesn't hurt.

 

[Criver600]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

We see Danny Biggs, Jim Murphy, John Brewer all excellent sling shooters who also shoot F-class. We shoot a 1000 yard practice at Oak Ridge every Monday evening during the daylight savings time months. Every now and then someone will hang an F-class target instead of a LR and its tough with a Palma rifle. If I'm shooting my Palma on the LR and keeping up with the F-open guys on their target I'm doing pretty good...........

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: F-Class t/r and moa....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: memilanuk</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Some ability @ sling shooting isn't necessarily a prereq for shoting F/TR well, but it sure doesn't hurt.

</div></div>

I don't think it's about experience with sling as much as it is experience built from a basis of understanding, i.e. basic training. Seems to me, most folks with an interest in LR buy a scoped rifle and go shoot. That's the way it started for me, but had I had some basic marksmanship training first I believe things would have gotten off to a better start for me, to become the extraordinary shooter that I'm working to be.