F T/R Competition F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

[XTR]

This keeps coming up in someone's optics thread so why don't we do it as a separate thread?

One thing I've discovered is that I can actually mag load my 175 load in my rifle. Seating 175SMKs to the lands didn't really buy me anything. Everything I've read says that the SMKs don't mind jumping so I pushed them all back .010 off of the lands, and in my LSR 308 I think that puts me at 2.835 OAL. I can load those into the mag (not running a DBM)

If we were making up an F/tac class, what rules?

Seems that mag loaded is one.
Barrel length?
Weight?
Comps?
Pods? (Some of the T/TR pods are pretty pure target devices)
Rear bags?
Sighters, How many? Any?

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

XTR,

BAM...already been done.

Field Precision Rifle Class (FPR) Limited & Open Overview

F-Precision Rifle Limited Equipment Rules:
• Gas Operated or Bolt Action Scoped Rifle
• Bolt Action Rifles must be repeater type of action. No single shot actions.
• Caliber limited to 308win or 223 (Unmodified)
• 308win bullet weight will be limited to 167gr. to 179gr. and a maximum cartridge overall length of 2.820 inches.
• 223rem bullet weight will be limited to 82gr. maximum and a maximum cartridge overall length of 2.560 inches.
• Barrels are limited to 26” maximum.
o Length will be measured from the front of the recoil lug (or the front of the receiver in the absence of an external recoil lug) to front end of muzzle or muzzle brake on bolt action rifles.
o Length will be measured from the rear of the barrel nut, float tube, or rail attachment nut to front end of muzzle or muzzle brake on semi auto rifles.
• Muzzle Brakes (or Suppressors, where legal) are allowed. The competitor is responsible for mitigating muzzle blast and debris. (Provisional Rule)
• Rifle weight limit of 18.5lbs with Bi-Pod attached. (Weight includes any accessories attached to the rifle)
• All bipods must have folding legs, and when fully collapsed must fit in a box with internal dimensions of 6 inches width and 12 inches length.

F-Precision Rifle Open Equipment Rules:
• Gas Operated or Bolt Action Scoped Rifle
• Bolt Action Rifles must have a repeater action. No single shot actions.
• Caliber Limited to 6mm to 338cal without bullet weight limitation
• Barrels are limited to 28” maximum.
o Length will be measured from the front of the recoil lug (or the front of the receiver in the absence of an external recoil lug) to the front of the muzzle or muzzle brake on bolt action rifles.
o Length will be measured from the rear of the barrel nut, float tube, or rail attachment nut to the front end of the muzzle or brake on semi auto rifles.
• Muzzle Brakes (or Suppressors, where legal) are allowed. The competitor is responsible for mitigating muzzle blast and debris. (Provisional Rule)
• Rifle weight limit of 19lbs with Bi-Pod attached. (Weight includes any accessories attached to the rifle)
• All bipods must have folding legs, and when fully collapsed must fit in a box with internal dimensions of 6 inches width and 12 inches length.

Feeding of Rounds:
• All ammo must be fed from a magazine, magazine well, or blind magazine.

Optics:
• Optics will be restricted to a magnification of 1X to 25X maximum.

Rear Rest for Both Classes:
• Must not weigh more than 2lbs.
• Shooting gloves are permitted.
• Monopods are not permitted.

Courses of Fire / Targets / Time Limits:
• Refer to F Class Rules Sections 7 / 4 / Full Bore Rules Section 8

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Field Precision Rifle Class (FPR) Question and Answers

Q. What is the purpose of this?

A. The short and simple answer is to promote the shooting sports and get more shooters on the line. Tactical/Practical precision rifle competition is the fastest growing rifle discipline in this country right now. Our club runs 40 + shooters on average on match days, and an additional 30 + shooters through on our practice day prior to our match. 70 + shooters on a weekend is the norm for us. Why not tap into this core of shooters?

There is a big core of shooters that are in between hardcore tac rifle competition and tradition HP and F-Class competition. We can use this venue as a funnel point to gather shooters and let them decide where they would like to take their shooting careers. There will be a portion that says “you know, I really dig F-Class, I am going to shoot F-TR or F-Open. The others will say, “now that I have had more time behind my rifle at distance, I am ready and comfortable to get into tac precision matches where they run and gun”.

Our practice sessions every month is like a mini F-Class match. It consist of 10 minutes of live fire at each distance. Everything is shot from prone at slow fire. Each round is pulled and mark just like in HP. Last month we had 40 guys come out, a lot of them I never see at our tac matches ever. Why not give these guys a place to compete, have fun, and in turn raise support and funds for the HP and F-Class programs out there?

Q. Why not just shoot F-TR or F-Open?

A. Let’s talk about the equipment involved, and the difference between an F-TR/Open and a tactical/practical field rifle.

1. F-Open basically employs a benchrest gun that is shot from a benchrest type of front rest off the ground.

2. F-TR basically employs a Palma rifle with a high powered scope on top.

3. Could a person come out and shoot their tactical/practical rifle in an F-Class match now? Sure, however they have a snowballs chance in hell with being competitive. My 260rem tac rifle vs. a true F-Open rig is like putting a NASCAR up against a Formula 1 car.

There is huge difference in equipment used between F-TR/Open and a tactical/practical rifles. Why not get more shooters on the line by creating a venue where those with tactical/practical rifles can compete in their own arena.

Think about the average cost of an F-TR/Open rifle + the accessories and reloading hardware. Yes, I know there is the Savage FTR 308win for around 1100.00, but reality is the majority of FT-R rigs are custom built. We won’t even bother discussing what a F-Open rig cost with all the bells and whistles.

Below are the reasons I believe why the tac/practical precision rifle discipline has grown the way it has the last several years:

• Lower start up cost.
• Factory ammo and rifles can be used, yet still be competitive.
• High CDI (chicks dig it) factor. It is the IN thing right now.

Q. Why limit it to 168gn to 178gn bullets only.

A. There is already a venue for the 155s, it is in F-TR. Let’s face it, the 155gn Scenar pushed to 2950 or 3000 FPS + puts the 175gn and 178gn bullets to shame at 800 yards and beyond.
One of the main reasons of the FPR class is to allow those that shoot factory Federal Gold 175s to come out and have a good time, and yet still be competitive. And yes, 168s make it out to 1K if pushed correctly. However I expect the majority of shooters will push 175gn SMKs or 178gn AMAXs. This levels the playing field for the FPR Limited class.

Q. What’s up with the 2lb weight limit on the rear rest?

A. I weighed all the bean bags I have used for tac rifle competitions, and the heaviest one is 1lbs 14oz. No one carries a 6lb bunny ear support around in tac rifle matches. I am trying to stay as true to the tactical precision rifle theme as possible.

Q. Why is there a weight limit on bi-pods? Why do their legs have to fold?

A. Simple. It is to keep guys from using those “sled” type of bi-pods. The traditional Harris 6”-9” or 9”-13” is the industry standard in the tac precision rifle game. Once again, just trying to stay as true as possible to the tac precision rifle theme.

Q. How did you come up with a 18.0lb right weight limit for FPR-Limited, and 18lbs for FPR-Open?

A. I weighed my 260rem by KMW. It has a Krieger #10 MTU, McMillan A5 stock (regular fill) and a 5-25X Premier scope. My mount and base are by Badger Ordnance, and made of steel. With my Harris 6-9 w/Pod-Lok, TAB sling, and Eagle stock pack, the rifle came in right under 18lbs.
For FPR-Open, I took into consideration of the extra 2” of barrel allowed.
Not too many rifles weighing in more than 18lbs in the tac precision rifle game.

Q. Why a 26” and 28” barrel length limitation?

A. Again, trying to keep things as close as possible with the tac precision rifle theme.

Q. Will a 175gn make it out to 1K using such short barrels?

A. Sure will. Our group has a guy running 175s with 18.5” barrel out to 1K in the warmer months.

Q. What’s up with feeding from the magazine, mag well or blind magazine only rule?

A. Again, we are staying true to the tac rifle game as much as possible. This rule keeps that “gamer” from loading rounds out long to cram more powder in to gain a lil bit of an edge. If a shooter has to single load due to his round not fitting into a magazine, it turns his rifle into a single shot. We don’t ever run single shots in tac precision rifle comps.

Q. Why limit the power range from 1X to 25X only for this class?

A. Again, staying true to the tac precision game. It would be safe to say that 99% of tac rifle shooters, do not run above 25X.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Of course, this is all subject to change once we have enough shooters and matches trying the concept out.

We need more data to fine tune things.

Weight of the rifles are actually higher than in F-Class because a bone stock AI with a S&B is a PIG.

A lot of tac rifles weigh more than FT-R rigs.

None of this is written in stone, they are just guidelines for match directors to use and try out. Once we have more input, we can tweak things from there.

HTH,

Vu

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

22. FIELD PRECISION RIFLE RULES (FPR)
Conventional Long Range Competition
NOTE: these rules are provided for the conduct of Field Precision Rifle competition either separately or in conjunction with conventional NRA Long Range rifle competition. Scores fired in these competitions using the F-class modified targets will be used for classification. In all cases where specific rules are not given here, the appropriate rules for High Power Rifle competition shall be used.

3. EQUIPMENT AND AMMUNITION

3.4 Field Precision Rifle Rules -

(a) Field Precision Rifle Open (FPR-O) - A rifle restricted to a bore diameter no larger than .338 caliber. (Attention is directed to safety fan limitations of various ranges. Individual ranges may further restrict ammunition). The rifle must be fired off a bipod, rigidly attached to the rifle’s for-end, and/or a sling. Any bipod, meeting the definition of a bipod, may be used but its weight must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. Any safe, manually operated trigger is permitted. Only magnified optic sighting systems are permitted, and will be included in the rifles overall weight.

The provisions of Rules 3.16 and 3.16.1 apply to this definition.

(1) The rifle’s overall weight, including all attachments such as optics and bipod, must not exceed 18 pounds. An “attachment” also includes any external object, other that the competitor and apparel, which recoils or partially recoils with the rifle, or which is clamped, held, or joined in any way to the rifle for each shot, or which even slightly raises with the firing of the rifle from the rests.

(2) The rifle must be fired in the prone position from the shoulder of the competitor using rifle rests as defined in Rule 3.4.1.

(3) All ammunition must be fed from the magazine, magazine well or blind magazine.

(b) Field Precision Rifle Limited (FPR-L) - A rifle restricted to the chambers of unmodified .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO or unmodified .223 Remington/5.56mm X 45 NATO cartridge cases. The rifle must be fired off a bipod, rigidly attached to the rifle’s for-end, and/or a sling. Any bipod, meeting the definition of a bipod, may be used but its weight must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. Any safe, manually operated trigger is permitted. Only magnified optic sighting systems are permitted, and will be included in the rifles overall weight.

(1) The rifle’s overall weight, including all attachments such as sights, sling and bipod, must not exceed 17 pounds. An “attachment” also includes any external object, other than the competitor and apparel, which recoils or partially recoils with the rifle, or which is clamped, held, or joined in any way to the rifle for each shot, or which even slightly raises with the lifting of the rifle from its rest/firing point.

(2) The rifle must be fired in the prone position from the shoulder of the competitor using rifle as defined in
3.4.1

(3) 308 Winchester/7.62 NATO will have a bullet weight limitation of 167gr. to 179gr. (bullets only) and a maximum cartridge overall length of 2.820 inches.

(4) 223 Remington/5.56x45 NATO will have a bullet weight limitation of 81gr. (bullets only) and a maximum cartridge overall length of 2.560 inches.

(5) All ammunition must have the capability of feeding from the magazine system of the competitor’s rifle.

3.4.1 Rifle Rests -

Field Precision Rifle Rests - A bipod the only allowed front supports for the F-TR rifle. The rifle may be supported by a bipod and a rear support which provide no positive mechanical method for returning it to its precise point of aim for the prior shot. Subject to:

(1) The bipod and rear support may not be attached to each other.

(2) The use of any form of a table is prohibited. This discipline is a modification of high power prone shooting, not a form of bench rest and should not be construed as such.

Disabled competitors may apply to the NRA Protest Committee for appropriate dispensation.
The intent of this rule is to prevent the use of a table type device.

(3) A bipod is a device with no more than two legs that touch the firing point. It must be rigidly attached to the fore end of the rifle. The bipod must have folding legs, and may be adjustable to compensate for the uneven surface of the firing point. The bi-pod, when fully collapsed must fit in a box with internal dimensions of 6 inches width and 12 inches length.

(4) No portion of the rifle’s butt or fore end shall rest directly on the ground or any hard surface. A rear rabbit eared bag, small sandbag or a gloved hand may be used to support the rifle’s butt. Any rear support employed shall not be attached, clamped or held to the rifle in any manner. The rear support may not be fixed to or protrude into the firing point. Mechanically adjustable rear support is not allowed. The weight of the rear support may not exceed 2 lbs.

(5) Any number or type of objects may be placed beneath the bipod or rear support, to compensate for variations in height or slope of the firing point.

(6) The bipod and rear rest may be adjusted after any shot to compensate for rest movement or settling.

3.4.2 Optics –

Field Precision Rifle optics are restricted to 1X – 25X magnification power ranges only.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

By the way, this was all presented to the NRA to help get more shooters on the line and I basically got the "ignore" button from the Director of Tactical Rifle Competition of the NRA.

 

[XTR]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

I like it.

A couple of comments from the standpoint of someone who has experience with enforcing, or trying to ensure compliance with rules/regulations.

The ammo length restriction would be a PITA. It isn't practical to do a go/no go on every round in the match, but if you don't check it people will cheat. Not everyone is that contentious. If it feeds it shoots is probably the better way to go there.

Before you posted this I was wondering how to address the feeding question for rifles w/o DBMs like a stock R700. Having to repeatedly shove three or 4 rounds into the rifle is going to be another annoyance, this time for the shooters. I know guys have historically fed Garands in comps, but it was designed for it with the C clips. There is no easy convenient way to feed a 700 in a timed shoot. I guess it's the price you pay for not having a DBM.

Why the limit on bullet weight in 308? I don't understand the lower limit. I hunt with 150s, there are a number of 150/155 size bullets that would make sense and don't seem to be extreme. The upper limit can see being argued a safety concern, it's a 308 not a magnum, then again there is only so big a pea you can reasonable or even unreasonably push to 1000 yds. Then This is another almost un-enforceable rule and one that is easily manipulated. If it has to feed I don't see anyone being able to put a 208 in there and making it work, or making it work better than a 168 or a 175.

The 25X scope limit is another one that I see as reasonable but possibly impractical to enforce.

Just brainstorming here. Hopefully this doesn't become a mud fight.

 

[XTR]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the way, this was all presented to the NRA to help get more shooters on the line and I basically got the "ignore" button from the Director of Tactical Rifle Competition of the NRA.

</div></div>

When did they get around to recognizing F/class in general? When they saw lots of guys doing it.

Maybe a few clubs and some internet support and they see more people out there. It could change. Hey, they'll probably never let us into Camp Perry, we'll always be the weird uncle that they don't want people to know about.

 

[NUTT]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">By the way, this was all presented to the NRA to help get more shooters on the line and I basically got the "ignore" button from the Director of Tactical Rifle Competition of the NRA. </div></div>

It is really too bad that the NRA is ignoring this. It would be nice if the NRA would give validity to more practical rifles.

 

[proneshooter]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you posted this I was wondering how to address the feeding question for rifles w/o DBMs like a stock R700. Having to repeatedly shove three or 4 rounds into the rifle is going to be another annoyance, this time for the shooters. I know guys have historically fed Garands in comps, but it was designed for it with the C clips. There is no easy convenient way to feed a 700 in a timed shoot. I guess it's the price you pay for not having a DBM.</div></div>
It's a non-issue. There is plenty of time between time the target goes down and the time it comes back up to keep any magazine (internal or detachable) topped off.

This ain't rapid fire.

 

[stiletto raggio]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Sounds like a great set of rules. I shot a .308 Steyr SBS in my first F-Class match. They combined F/TR with unlimited since there were only eight shooters. I placed second of those eight, but the guy who won was shooting a hot-rodded .260 single shot with one of those massive Sinclair bipods and a 32x scope. I felt literally outgunned with my 168 FGMM, my Harris bipod and my Leupold VX-III.

I was still happy to do as well as I did, and I still beat several guys with fancy rifles, but I realized that I would either have to build a dedicated F Class gun or accep that I would not be competitive with my field rifles. Since I wanted to shoot F Class to get familiar with reading wind and to make me comfortable with a rifle before I tried run and gun with it, it seemed to defeat the purpose to have to buy specialized equipment. Say what you will about FCSA, their sanctioned matches do a good job of keeping a field even by breaking it up into several classes. I think F Class could use these.

 

[WDL]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

I think the scope power limitation somewhat penalizes older guys with vision going downhill.

 

[264shooter]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

If there is any doubt on how competitive a FPR rifle can be just ask the canadian team.

Sorry, I just couldn't help myself!

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

That sounds pretty sweet. It seems to me that the NRA will eventually come around. Some of the "old guard" really need to clear out and make room for new blood. Some of those guys create and enforce rules for no other reason except that they can. Rifles and shooters are evolving...you can evolve with them or get left behind.

There is nothing more refreshing than to go to a match where they shoot modified rules to allow more shooters to get in the game.

 

[Tactical]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CamoWildcat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the scope power limitation somewhat penalizes older guys with vision going downhill. </div></div>

Camo, disagree. I ran an 8-25 MK4 for several matches this year. I had no problem with .50 moa X ring with a 25X scope

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

To answer a few questions:

Why no 155s in this concept?

F-TR already accomdates that particular bullet. Let's face it folks, the 155 @ 2950fps + is a heavy 260.

175gn SMK going 2700fps @ 1K = 9.25MOA of drift w/ 10mph winds
155gn Scenar going 2950 @ 1K = 7.75MOA of drift w/10 mph winds
139gn Scenar going 2825 @ 1K = 6.50MOA of drift w/ 10mph winds

In a game of 1/2MOA X Rings, and 1MOA 10 rings, you can see where a 155gn has it's advantages. If they didn't the F-TR boys wouldn't be using them.

Also when this concept was being written up, we had the "regular joe" in mind. The guy that has a PSS, 5R, or stock savage 10FP running box stock ammo available at most gun shops. Federal, Blackhills, or Corbon 175gn Match Ammo.

Our LE and Mil folks would also have a venue to compete with their duty rigs using 175s.


As for scope power being max at 25X, well that is to keep things true to the Tactical side of the house. How many guys you see running more than 25X in tac matches? Not very many.

If you want to run your 80X March 1/8MOA click, there is already a venue for that. F-TR or Open.

All of our guys that shot March Madness ran our tac rigs with 0 issues. Most of them were in mil adjustments so we had to favor scoring rings vs. dial due to .1 mil being a lil too course for 1/2MOA ring values.

Having another class in F-Class will not hurt a single soul shooting F-TR or F-Open.

As for loading from a mag, I push fed the entire match with 0 issues.

The big debate are brakes on the line. Sling and F-TR/Open guys hate brakes (I personally agree), but in the Tac game, they are the industry standard.

Our MD of the HP program allowed them, and we had 0 issues. We just made sure the braked shooters were at one end of the firing line. We also put our packs up as barriers to help mitigate muzzle blast. It really comes down to having a lil respect for your fellow shooters.

This entire deal is a working concept and is still in final design. The only way to figure things out is to have matches of these around the country and see what lil bumps we run into.

Since our HP MD allowed us to compete in our own class, he is seeing more and more of our shooters come out to his events.

At this point in my life I am not ready to go full blown F-Class, but it is good trigger time. We have some of the best trigger pullers in the world come to Sac Valley, so why not learn from them?

Vu

 

[notquiteright]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

I started in F-Class when it was only the open class available. It was declared the place where beginners could came and compete with whatever they had.

We saw how quickly that turned very race gun.

Next the F-TR opened up with again the declaration anyman can come with whatever 308/223 he has and compete.

That too quickly became a race gun venue.

I think it is EXTREMELY niave to think any new venue will not be dominated by high end custom guns pushing the limits on any rules.

Personally I see matches as either advancing a sport or controlling it. Palma sets in stone a discipline that shooters from bygone days would still recognize.

Limiting the bullet selection, allowing a 26/28" barrel, must feed from mag worship at the old guard shrine of 'Tactical'.

I know real deal snipers who are making the big sniper bucks and qualify to wear the funny sniper hats that break all the rules so named in the overview.

This Practical catagory just seems like a new version of 'palma' with the bullet wiegth restrictions and attempt to better define bipod (I support making the term bipod practical and not a sled)

Not enough separation from existing F-TR IMO.

If the goal is a true lets widden the shooter base then Factory catagory might be better. Lets not reinvent the wheel but add a catagory that does serve as the gateway venue.

Now on whats competitive-
I shoot again the 'palma' 308s
I shoot against the 155 skinney guys
I shoot against 36X scopes
I shoot against guys burning barrels the way F open does.

Doesnt bother me a lick

I'd think you would help the ENTIRE competitive shooting world if you truely addressed the beginner issue either by a factory venue or if you really like your NASCAR comparision, why not have a short barrel venue?

As some have noticed short barrel handy rifles for LE and military mounted snipers have really florished, the LTR isnt alone anymore.

Anyway Good Luck

 

[ryanjay11]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Its the shooter, not the gun. A shooter that is good enough to win tactical matches would also put up competitive scores in F-T/R. Plenty of guys are showing up and shooting F-T/R and Open with "tactical" rifles. Adding more classes doesn't make much sense to me.

If adding the word "tactical" to the match will get more shooters to show up, I'm all for it. I just don't see how it will change anything other that splitting the competitors into smaller groups. I'm guessing this is mainly about muzzle brakes.

 

[Iceman13]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Vu,

I understand the FTR limitation on .308/.223, but I think its a mistake in tactical.

If someone wants to shoot a low recoil round like the 6.8 or the 6.5 Grendel, etc, they are forced into F Open, where there is NO chance of being competitive. Thus they either up gun, or don't shoot. Most don't shoot.

Both the 6.5 and 6.8 are widely accepted at tactical matches, 3 gun, etc.

If you limited powder capacity to 46 grains or similar (both of them use about 30-32 grains max) and created a low recoil class they could compete with the 5.56 and .308, and you would make lots of friends. They might not win, but they would/could be competitive. There is a large group of guys shooting those calibers who would like to play, but can't with the current setup.

I think the classes borrow too heavily from F Class.

I love the idea, but if the point is bringing more guys out, we need to figure out a way to make the game wider, so that more rifles qualify and can be competitive.

Two classes are cool, but base the options on other things beside simple caliber, base it on similar performance, not just the calibers. We have plenty of classes like that already.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Iceman,

It is, what it is. F-Tac Limited will be 308win and 223.

Everything else is Open. However, feel free to get whatever you want started at your local range bud.

And no one shoots a 6.5SPC or 6.8 in long range precision game anyways. We can't make everything fit, but we'll make it work for the majority.

Show me 1 LR match that a guy shot a 6.8SPC in and 6.5 Gren in in a bolt rifle.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ryanjay11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Its the shooter, not the gun. A shooter that is good enough to win tactical matches would also put up competitive scores in F-T/R. Plenty of guys are showing up and shooting F-T/R and Open with "tactical" rifles. Adding more classes doesn't make much sense to me.

If adding the word "tactical" to the match will get more shooters to show up, I'm all for it. I just don't see how it will change anything other that splitting the competitors into smaller groups. I'm guessing this is mainly about muzzle brakes. </div></div>


WRONNNNNNNNNNNNNNG.

If you think a 30" barreled Palma rig with a 36X scope has no advantage over a tac rig lobbing 175s in a 1/2MOA X-Ring game, you are on crack.

Will a guy shooting his tac rig beat out a FTR guy once in a while, SURE. However, go to a national and see what happens at higher level competition.

I am a firm believer that "it's the indian, not the arrorw" concept, but it is not an apply all.

 

[rwest309]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Vu, in my limited experience shooting F Open with a tactical rifle I have found the great equalizer to be the conditions. I shot F open 4 times in Capitan last year and watched a highly skilled shooter with a t/r rifle win 3 of the 4 matches. There were numerous bat actioned 30 inch tube true f open rigs on the line in each match.

The same goes for the mid range f class match I have been attending in Roswell NM. Another skilled shooter won this match the first time I attended with a GAP Templar actioned 308. The guy shot a clean score (450-38X) he did shoot off a sinclair bipod and edgewood rear bag.

I was able to squeak out a 3rd place finish with a 449-32x shooting my badger 243 off an atlas with a triad rear bag. The line again was full of true open guns. This aggravates those guys to no end but it is what it is.

I have attended 8-9 f class comps in the past 2 years (new to the sport) and never placed lower than 6th out of 20 or more competitors in open class. I would not consider myself a great shooter maybe a lucky one. My scores suggest that a tactical rifle shot in F open can at the very least hang with the true open rigs even in the hands of a noob.

I do think you are correct however when speaking of high level competition but at a local level or maybe even state level I think someone shooting a tactical rifle can be a bit more competitive than you may think.

I hope this is the case because I plan to shoot mid range again on Saturday. I would hate to waste the drive only to find out I am outclassed by the competitions equipment. Get a good gusty 10-12 mph wind going and all that goes out the window.

You are most likely a far more skilled shooter than I claim to be and I would wager you could be very successful with one of your tactical rifles in f open...maybe not nationals but who knows. Id bet you could shoot the matches I am attending and come out in the top 3. Equipment can give you an edge but only in the scenario where the shooting talent is near equal.

I on the other hand absolutely love your ideas as they pertain to new classification. It is more suited to the type of shooting I like to do. I am under constant pressure buy the guys I shoot with to build a true open gun and shoot that discipline. I refuse. I love my tactical rifle and my uso's. I dont want a single shot wrong sided port no ejector havin 1.250 / 30 inch gun.

In my mind the infinitely adjustable front rest / rear heavy bag free recoil style is not the type of shooting I want to excell at. It would be nice to be on the line with a group of like minded individuals. I mainly shoot f class for the immediate feedback provided by the pulled target and spotter placement. Other than that it is rather slow paced and methodical in my opinion.

 

[jaychris]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

As an F-Open shooter, whose class is already relegated to the end of the shooting line, I don't have a problem with Vu's proposals in general, but I *would* have a problem with muzzle breaks. In a covered shooting line, I don't see how you can prevent the shock from affecting shooters on either side of you. Especially if you are allowing a braked .338 or something similar. I would not have a problem with cans, (especially since we are finally allowed to own AND use them now in there here parts).

My 7WSM tacticool/hunter sports a 22" barrel w/muzzle break and I feel bad for the other guys on the line when I shoot it, even when I'm at the far end of the line.

I think the shock wave would affect the sling shooters even a bit more.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Vu,

Although I generally like the concept FPR Limited & Open, my biased view of the classes would be more like this:

Limited: to only 8 rounds/calibers

223, 6XC, 243 win, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua, 260 Rem, 7mm-08, 308 Win only. All magazine fed, no bullet weight or cartridge length restrictions. 26" max barrel length, muzzle brakes allowed, max rifle weight of 18 lbs.

We compete in tactical matches with 308 winny's against other rounds, singling out the 223 and 308 for special treatment takes the practical out of tactical, IMHO. And the 308 and 223 already have there own venue......

Open Class: any cartridge not listed above, with a water weight capacity greater than 60 grains in calibers .243 to .338, max rifle weight of 20 lbs., 28" max barrel length.

Standard rounds vs standard rounds, magnums vs magnums seems more eminently fair.

All other restrictions, as you have stated above. Thoughts????

 

[XTR]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Yes, a good shooter can out shoot an average shooter with a "tac" rifle, but when the skills are similar then a 30" tube and less wind drift will win most days. And if the wind is just a little un-cooperative that difference can mean that an above average shooter can beat a good shooter.

Yep, if you miss a wind shift you might fly an 8 up there, but if the guy next to you misses it too he only needs 1/2 moa less drift to get a 9, and if it's 3/4 better he's still in the 10.

 

[mjh30]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

XTR, think those comments definitely belong in the other thread:
TRG-22 in .260 for F-open

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Guys,

All have good and valid points. Feel free to implement them at your local range and report back the results.

We have started running these matches at our home range and they have been working out fine.

Vu

 

[999yards]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys,
Of course, this is all subject to change once we have enough shooters and matches trying the concept out.

(Who is "WE" just the folks at your club? or all the clubs that would eventualy host the new FPR class).

We need more data to fine tune things.

Weight of the rifles are actually higher than in F-Class because a bone stock AI with a S&B is a PIG.

A lot of tac rifles weigh more than FT-R rigs.

None of this is written in stone, they are just guidelines for match directors to use and try out. Once we have more input, we can tweak things from there.

HTH,

Vu



All have good and valid points. Feel free to implement them at your local range and report back the results.

We have started running these matches at our home range and they have been working out fine.

Vu</div></div>


I know the rules for the new class are not written in stone now, but will they be once/if the NRA approves the ones that you have submitted? How long before they can be amended?

I'm thankful that you/your club have taken the steps to have an FPR class sanctioned. Is there a contact person whom we can lobby in support of another NRA Sanctioned match? Or would it be Highpower?

BTW I don't think checking bullet weight and lenght is practical. Better leave that one alone. I'm sure it works fine at your club, but can you imagine a National Event with range officers running around checking bullet weight and OAL?

 

[karux408]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

this thread is excellent. Thanks Vu, i think you are on the right track!

i desire to participate in NRA sanctioned mid-range / long-range precision competitions, but i am attempting to understand how today's NRA match rules [service and F ] adequately match my tactireality bent. I desire precision matches to reflect this century's real-world shooting realities (e.g. bipods instead of sleds, magazine feeds, muzzle brakes, 300win / 338 caliber ammo, more positions than just prone).

Opening up a new competition class would enhance my interest in shooting matches. i already played the competition arms race game in smallbore with success, and have no issues 'matching equipment'. As a poster said earlier, each class becomes it's own arms race (whether Nascar or F1). Rules can try to lock down variations, but in the end, money and innovation delivers an advantage. I simply don't desire to 'learn how to tune the F game' when the skill set doesn't match my interest. When am I going to use a sled and single feed in real life? I'll shoot F/Open with a bipod and obtain better practice at the expense of Xs. My issue with single feed is not about lower speed in competition (one has to wait for the target pull anyways), but more about unnecessarily breaking position.


i do question the 'F/Tac open class' barrel length, because 338 LM ballistics from Lapua specify a 26.8 inch barrel, and a muzzle brake is helpful. When I buy a 338LM, i'm inclined to match my barrel with the spec, which would preclude using a brake during competition. ouch!

 

[jb7032]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CamoWildcat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think the scope power limitation somewhat penalizes older guys with vision going downhill. </div></div>

Camo, disagree. I ran an 8-25 MK4 for several matches this year. I had no problem with .50 moa X ring with a 25X scope </div></div>

I agree with tactical. If you allowed a higher power scope for one person then everyone should get to use it aswell. So, if everyone is using the same "higher" powered scope, wouldn't someone with not so good vision still be at a disadvantage?

 

[XTR]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Karux</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this thread is excellent. Thanks Vu, i think you are on the right track!

i desire to participate in NRA sanctioned mid-range / long-range precision competitions, but i am attempting to understand how today's NRA match rules [service and F ] adequately match my tactireality bent. <span style="color: #33CCFF"> They don't.</span> I desire precision matches to reflect this century's real-world shooting realities (e.g. bipods instead of sleds, magazine feeds, muzzle brakes, 300win / 338 caliber ammo, more positions than just prone). <span style="color: #3366FF">Those things do reflect reality but they do not reflect the skill of the shooter. Take a look at the service class rules. There you load from the mag in standing and sitting/kneeling. Slow fire prone is another story. </span>

Opening up a new competition class would enhance my interest in shooting matches. i already played the competition arms race game in smallbore with success, and have no issues 'matching equipment'. As a poster said earlier, each class becomes it's own arms race (whether Nascar or F1). Rules can try to lock down variations, but in the end, money and innovation delivers an advantage. I simply don't desire to 'learn how to tune the F game' when the skill set doesn't match my interest. When am I going to use a sled and single feed in real life? <span style="color: #3366FF">Honestly, a sled is just a bipod, it will save you 2 or 3 points in a match, that's all. If that stops you from shooting you are looking for a reason not to shoot. Right now I use a Harris</span> I'll shoot F/Open with a bipod and obtain better practice at the expense of Xs. My issue with single feed is not about lower speed in competition (one has to wait for the target pull anyways), but more about unnecessarily breaking position. <span style="color: #3366FF">I see breaking position as much less of a concern for us in F than slingers, and if you put your ammo box in the right place you can load and ejest w/o ever getting out from behind the scope. Your empties will even land in the open lid.</span>


i do question the 'F/Tac open class' barrel length, because 338 LM ballistics from Lapua specify a 26.8 inch barrel, and a muzzle brake is helpful. When I buy a 338LM, i'm inclined to match my barrel with the spec, which would preclude using a brake during competition. ouch!
</div></div>

The barrel length is for 308s and what we're generally talking about is a modification of the F/TR ruleset for more practical rifles as opposed to the 30" tubes you commonly see today. If you want to shoot a 338 LM, well the open class is there. Have at it. I understand the no brakes rules. Brakes are fine by your self, but lined up with 20 other guys it's not fun, and there are matches shot from covered firing points, less fun. By the time you have finished 60 rounds for record plus sighters you'll have had all the fun yo can stand for a day.

There is no reason not to get out and shoot comps, it is a better measure of your sill that target practice because it records the good shots and the bad ones that we tend to forget.

 

[jb7032]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no reason not to get out and shoot comps, it is a better measure of your sill that target practice because it records the good shots and the bad ones that we tend to forget. </div></div>

+1 except that it would be nice if I didn't have to drive 88,000 miles to get to a range that has something more than 200 yds.

 

[stiletto raggio]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jb7032</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no reason not to get out and shoot comps, it is a better measure of your sill that target practice because it records the good shots and the bad ones that we tend to forget. </div></div>

+1 except that it would be nice if I didn't have to drive 88,000 miles to get to a range that has something more than 200 yds. </div></div>

Surely with all the precision rifle and parts companies in KC there are decent long ranges around.

 

[jb7032]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: stiletto raggio</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jb7032</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: XTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There is no reason not to get out and shoot comps, it is a better measure of your sill that target practice because it records the good shots and the bad ones that we tend to forget. </div></div>

+1 except that it would be nice if I didn't have to drive 88,000 miles to get to a range that has something more than 200 yds. </div></div>

Surely with all the precision rifle and parts companies in KC there are decent long ranges around. </div></div>

You would think so! We also have Sierra bullets about 80 miles down the road. Then there is Lake City Army Ammunition plant that is so close to my house I can hear them test firing all the time. Looked it up on google earth, Lake City easily have the ability to shoot 1000+ yds. Go figure

sorry for getting off topic here

 

[rwest309]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rdsii64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just want to shoot. I don't care what the shooter to my left or right is shooting.
If the rules will allow the equipment I currently own to get on the line, thats all I need or care about. If I shoot a better score today than my last outing and I learn something in the process, I WIN!! </div></div>


That is well put.

 

[pjparker]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rwest</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rdsii64</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just want to shoot. I don't care what the shooter to my left or right is shooting.
If the rules will allow the equipment I currently own to get on the line, thats all I need or care about. If I shoot a better score today than my last outing and I learn something in the process, I WIN!! </div></div>


That is well put. </div></div>

+1 Besides, you'll only be scored with others of like gear and classification, anyway.

If additional categories get more people out and shooting, it's all the better for all of us.

Demonstrating the lawful use of firearms for legitimate sporting activities is imperative, and the more of us that do it garner the attention of those that realize WE VOTE, TOO.

Paul

 

[memilanuk]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

The primary problem with that idea is that big places outside major metro areas aside, a lot of ranges just don't have enough people to break out F/TR and F/Open separately, much less FPR-whatever. There were supposed to be just *hordes* of people come out of the wood work for F-class too. There is a growing number, yes, but you'd be amazed at the excuses people come up with even when you create a class they could shoot their gun in unmodified. Some people just like to sit on the porch and talk about shooting, not actually *do* it.

90+% of the matches I've shot locally, I wind up stuck in just plain 'F-class', as in 'competing head to head with the 7WSM belly bench guns'. I've paid a lot of entry fees to 'support' F/Open shooters over the years, when there was no realistic chance of me winning given the range and the conditions.

Nowadays I get some of that $$$ back once in a while

My point being... just because two new classes get created, and you show up with a rifle that didn't fit before and now does... don't think that you're going to be doing anything other than shooting against yourself (which *should* be your primary concern anyways).

Of course, for the people dumb enough to bitch about having to shoot F/TR against F/Open guns... I always tell them the solution is *real* simple: bring friends. Get them shooting too, even if its just for fun and neither of you are gunning for MW. Makes me smile when I see F/TR broken out and not F/Open...

 

[TheShooter]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

There have always been classes designed to run what you got.

Rifle:
F-open was for hunting rifles until you got a bunch of benchresters shooting 22 pound rifles in 6.5-284.
F/TR was for field rifles that is now scoped palma rifles as described above.

Pistol:
IPSC used to have only one division. Then someone figured out that compensator with red dot sight was no longer practical. Then we got limited. Since a limited gun costs $2500+, we now have production. How many competitors shoot a box stock gun in production?

As long as there is competition, people are going to look for an edge to win.

In my opinion, F/TR can be fixed by saying repeaters only. That will make the tactical rifles virtually identical to the dedicated F/TR guns.

Muzzle brakes:
I will ignore the whole muzzle blast issue as we all know that part. You want to increase the cost? If muzzle brakes are allowed there will be exactly one caliber dominating the line: 338 Lapua. It shoots a significantly better bullet than the 6.5-284 at only a slightly lower velocity. Want shorter distance? 250 g bullet at similar velocities. If you want to win the proposed FPR class, your rifle will be a braked 338 Lapua custom, no Remington MLRs. The lack of a muzzle brake helps reduce the arms race a little bit as I haven't ever seen a 338 Lapua (and very few 300 magnums) in F-open.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Back when the site first started a bunch of us shot the Spirit of America in Raton, and it pretty clear early on it was a gear race and not a true marksmanship competition. Nothing wrong with engineering a fine shooting rifle, or being able to afford a great rifle, but the fact they call it "belly bench rest" is a huge clue right there. this was before F/TR

Now with the F/TR you get closer to something, but still with scoped Palma rifles, you are still able to buy a bit of an advantage, especially for the better shooters in the group.

Now, I understand the objection to muzzle brakes, we see a lot of them, and they do help with recoil management, allowing you to shoot magnums, and really If they squadded them together, why object ? I always say, guys with muzzle brakes can't complain about muzzle brakes. So squad them together and drive on... but if the issue is sound, muzzle blast, well you have your answer... Let me shoot my suppressor.

An F/Tac class should be suppressor friendly in my opinion. Limit barrel length to 26" and keep the weight down a bit. It sucks to think about what you need to even the playing field, but if you want to stay away from a gear race longer, sometimes these things are necessary.

 

[NorCal Vu]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now, I understand the objection to muzzle brakes, we see a lot of them, and they do help with recoil management, allowing you to shoot magnums, and really If they squadded them together, why object ? I always say, guys with muzzle brakes can't complain about muzzle brakes. So squad them together and drive on... but if the issue is sound, muzzle blast, well you have your answer... Let me shoot my suppressor. </div></div>

A FREAKING MEN!

We do this every month at our LR Match, which almost fills up each month, or goes over capacity for two relays.

Our MD squads all the braked rifles on the far right, they can hammer each other, and no one ever bitches.

Only guy that gets hosed is the guy next to the lane where braked shooters start.

LL. You know people bitch? It is just to bitch, no real good reason. I see F-Class/HP vs. Tac shooters like Skiers vs. Snowboarders.

All enjoy the snow, but skiers are too uppity to share the mountain with a long hair kid on a snowboard.

I am just glad I don't deal with the close minded BS some others do. Our HP match director does anything and everything to get more rifles to the line. Not because he has to, but because that should be every MDs mission.

Rant off....

 

[Jaeger308]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Vu, I think you are on to something here. Burning powder is what it is all about, F/Tac or whatever you want to call it allows UKD shooters into the fold. We all benefit from other disciplines of shooting, either in shooting the different styles or in the technology that crosses over. Benchrest, service rifle, UKD, F-Class, Palma all have helped each other in one way or another over the years. Drive on with your idea I like it!

I am big into the UKD steel ringing; started going to F/TR’s made new friends and learned new things. My 17 year old son jumped into service rifle ( something I did many years ago) and is hammering the field in matches, I am in a hiatus of my own shooting supporting him 110%, just hanging around with him being his ammo caddy and banker, I have learned new things and made more new friends. The details will work themselves out as to breaks, cans, specs on rifles. I look forward into getting on the line in an F/PR Open with my .338 LM and shooting a match, I’m smiling just thinking about it

Competition is fine and good, but let’s all remember the fun and social aspect of our days on the range also. Bring knowledge and leave with some every time, we can all benefit from each other.

 

[mattt]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

I show up to most of SAC Valley long range matches to shoot f/tr.From RMC to Palma there is always at least one other f/tr shooter and sometimes over 20. I just want to shoot.

 

[notquiteright]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

It will be interesting to see how a tactical class evolves. I remember F-Open was for 'bring what you run' and was quite informal in the beginning.

Now of course it is far from that.

Those who didnt wish to used wobble stick front rests, 22 lb 6.5x284s cast about and saw restricting caliber and adopting a 'bipod' as a savior from barrel burning, cost amazing, belly benchrest class.

Some noted early, I was one, that a Palma rifle in a scope stock would be most excellent for F-TR. While I couldnt bring myself to purchase a sled type bipod, I dont mind those who do. While all my rifles have internal magazines I dont see where a single shot takes anything away from me and wonder just how twitchy you have to be to not want to shoot against one. Single loading at a civilian run match just seems wise. Yes I know we are all highly skilled operator types, but there are alot of less than savvy guys out there we want to come and shoot.

155 skinnys are allowed in tacticool matches but will be banned in this new F-class catagory? Any attempt to limit OAL, bullet wieght or velocity is a non starter.

Brakes, well as cavalier as some can be about it only bothering one guy, the one who has to shoot next to the first braker in the relay- I damn sure dont want to be THAT guy!

Suppressors, if one scorns the belly benchrest, palma clone crowd then permitting a device that requires a special permit and costs more than alot of entry level rigs seems as elitist as the catagories we dont wish to compete against.

I suppose most match directors will do as they have always done, some will use HP rules allowing a new class if three like rifles show up. Some will just lump all scoped rifles together.

Be interesting to see how a more tacticool catagory shakes out. I am not so sure a 338 lapua mounting a suppressor or worse yet a brake is any 'better' than the 22lb 6.5x284 belly benchrest rig on 'allowing' more shooters on the line.

just allows a different elitist node in competitions.

Will be interesting to see what develops.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

The issues that divides the braked people from unbraked is pretty simple... A portable plywood wall that can be moved into position to separate the two shooters. There is a enough room between shooters in most cases, a pretty simple and inexpensive fix if you ask me.

Granted a 338LM may not be any better, but with the current PSR programs, it will be pretty standard for the military moving forward. My guess the F/TR class being 308/223 is designed to mimic the military ? Just a guess, but 300WM is standard as will 338, especially overseas, 338LM is a standard military round. So if you are going to mimic tactical, well that is very tactical and has been for some time.

Let's face it, if you are trying to shoot F / TR with a 223, you have a pretty racy rifle, unless it is a close in shot. Heck at recall at the SOA match guys shooting one rifle in something like 6BR to 600, then another rifle, 800, 900, 1000... like golf clubs. So, where are the rules for that ?

Given a will and a way, someone will always find a way to out game the next guy, the question is, can you make it "practical" to reduce that gaming as much as realistically possible.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The issues that divides the braked people from unbraked is pretty simple... A portable plywood wall that can be moved into position to separate the two shooters. </div></div>Did this a few weeks ago at a match. The plywood didn't work too well since we hastily crafted it with concrete blocks to hold it, but my hard case worked perfectly even with the .338 since I was shooting prone. Where it may be an issue is if someone uses a brake off a bench...the barricade needs to be high. But even then, where there's a will there's a way and it's not rocket science to accomodate braked rifles.

The real moral here is that these range owners bent over backwards to accomodate <span style="text-decoration: underline">everyone</span>. That's the way it should be. I'm new to these types of matches but at first impression it almost seems like the trophy hounds have way too much input into the rulemaking. As countless here have said...I just want to shoot and a military stick should not be a disqualifier or something that's <span style="font-style: italic">tolerated</span>. Hell you'll never hear me whining that I have to shoot against someone's pretty blue race rig

What about the red ones...don'y they attract bees? LOL

 

[Killshot44]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

How funny that Practical/Tactical has more restrictions than other F/TR or Open......

Can't compete in F-class with a custom-built repeater?
B.S.

You could if you practiced with wind-flags and 1/2moa X-ring targets.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Okay, putting aside some of the other concerns for a minute, I do have a question for Vu or anyone else who can answer this question.

I have a strong itch to build a .300WM from various bits n pieces. It seems a 24-26" barrel is pretty 'standard' in this caliber for 'real world' (hunting and/or tactical) applications. Most of the 'pre-threaded & chambered' barrels I see available around the 'Net are 26". But to satisfy the arbitrary limit of 28" for FPR-UL class, I'd have to shorten that an inch or more to allow room for a(n effective) brake. Is that about how you'd interpret it?

 

[leadbullet]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

yes, the barrel are measured from front of receiver or recoil lug to front of muzzle or muzzle brake

 

[XTR]

Re: F/Tac, or maybe F/practical

Just a a data point here.

Locally I'm seeing way more F/o guys than F/TR, in the match we had Sunday we shot 800/900/1000, It was a small group but we had people from Ohio here to shoot.

Granted that ORSA has HUGE service rifle/camp perry crowd (We had to run the AMU off the 600 yd line a couple of weeks ago to shoot a 1000yd Monday night match, and they are supposed to be back in town Wednesday) so lots of guys are slingers, but I was the only TR rifle on the line. They awarded 1st and 2nd so we should have had over ten, I think there were were 12 F class shooters.

At the regional a few weeks ago we had a similar scenario, there were a dozen F/tr's and about 30 F/o and more slingers.

Seems that most people like shooting off of a rest with a zippy bullet. I don't see me going there in the near future. I like my 308, though I may concede the 175 SMKs for 155 Scenars.