Range Report F/ TR 308 vs 223

[kyreloader]

I would like to get involved with F/TR shooting/competition. In reading the .260 thread, it got me thinking about whether I should chamber a rifle in 223 or 308 to compete. I like the idea of getting a 223 due to powder cost and recoil.

How competitive is the 223 with 80 or 90g bullets compared to the 308 with 155g Scenars or 178g SMKs?

You F/TR shooters, which caliber rules the roost- so to speak?

Thanks is advance.

 

[Sig685]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

Looks like I will take first crack at it.

I have been shooting F-T/R for a couple of years now, all with an enhanced AR-15 in .223. I shoot this combo at 300/600 (aka MR) and 800/900/1000, most of the time at 1000 yards (aka LR.)

I reached Master classification in MR last summer with this set up. LR is much more difficult, but I have achieved Sharpshooter status in LR a couple months ago with this AR-15 and my 80gr loads on the F-class targets.

I learned a lot about shooting in the wind and reading the mirage.

I have competed with other F-T/R shooters using .308 and 175SMK and never felt undergunned compared to them, at all distances. The 80gr JLK has a BC and trajectory very similar to the 175SMK.

It is my personal belief that for F-class competition, the barrel is the critical part and I am a big proponent of long barrels. My AR has a 26 inch heavy barrel and it is very accurate with the 80gr JLKs that I use.

After reaching SS classification, I assessed the situation and decided that I had reached the limits of the .223 Rem at long range. The F-class targets are so small that a small error in wind calls has huge repercussions in a .223 or .308 at 1000 yards. Competing alongside F-openers with heir 6.5-284 and other fancy schamcy calibers is a little aggravating at 1000 yards. I have kicked they behinds at 300 and 600, but at 1000, it's a different story.

So, I have built up a .308 exclusively for LR, but I will not be using the 175SMK in that rifle. I have elected to use a different bullet and I am not ready to discuss it, because I have not had a chance to try it out yet. Work keeps getting in the way.

I will continue to use my .223 for the MR F-TR as it is superbly accurate and very competitive.

I absolutely love to shoot the AR and the .223; the recoil is non-existent and after a full match, I do not feel tired or any pain in my shoulder. I love to shoot, I do not like to be kicked every time.

The .308 has a very long heavy barrel and the load development showed that its recoil was more than the AR but still very tame. However, I will know that I have shoot 66+ rounds on my belly after a match.

Please do not take the above as a recommendation on what you should do; I am just explaining what I have done so far and what I am doing now and why.

If you have more specific questions, I will be happy to answer them, as long as it's not about my .308 rifle as I have not shot a match with it yet. I try to only talk/write about stuff that I have done, that way I don't get caught up in fabrications; I'm too stupid to fake information.

One last comment; I have a 36X scope on my AR right now. It helps me place the shot more precisely on target and I find this is extremely helpful when the wind blows. My .308 has a 20X currently, but I have plans to get a more powerful scope if the rifle shows it's capable of doing something.

 

[matchking]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

I once shot a match where one guy was shooting a VERY accurate .223. It was a 2-day Mid-Range match and he killed everyone at 300 and 500. He didn't do nearly as well at 600. I have not shot a ton of F/TR, but that was the only .223 I have been around that faired well. Of course in the matches I have shot in there have been very few .223 being run. I think there is a reason.

Like stated above, LR is not friendly to the .223.

 

[memilanuk]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

I assembled a Savage in .223 for my wife to use in F-TR... @ 300, 500, 600 that thing has no flies on it whatsoever. Its only trip to 8/9/1k was me shooting just to make absolutely sure it would stay supersonic at distance - which it did with room to spare. I shot my 12 F/TR w/ 155gr VLDs back to back with it at each yard line. The .223 was a little more twitchy in the breeze, but it seemed still capable. Hopefully next month I can get the wife down to our 'big wind' range and see how it holds up in real wind.

 

[Ol Rob]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

I have shot both. I think either can do the job at 600. But on a windy course I will shoot the 308. I have shot my 223 before and it is a challenge. I enjoyed it. I didn't win, but that's just me.
Rob

 

[kyreloader]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

So, the consensus that I am reading is that they are pretty comparable to 600y but after that the 308 does better in the wind?

Am I summarizing that ok?

 

[DaG]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

How do you guys think a 20" 1 in 9 would do @ 600 with a 77 or 80 gr.? Thanks in advance.
DaG

 

[memilanuk]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

First off... your twist rate would be considered too slow for those bullets. You *might* get lucky and it may work out okay, but I wouldn't bank on it. S69MK, B70VLD, H75AMAX, those are more likely to work in your twist.

As for a 20" .223 w/ the above bullets... it should work well enough to get you hooked

 

[Ol Rob]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

The 75AMAX is the stuff. You are right on the button for it to stabilize. They will need to be run a little hot. I push mine to 2850 fps and they doo great. Mine is a 20" 1:9 sps as well. The 69's do better closer in, but the 75's are gtreat at 600. I don't think you will get positive results with the 77SMK or the 80's.
Start with 24gr of something and work up slowly. I use 24.3 gr of IMR 4895 loaded long to 2.455"
YMMV-Rob

 

[kyreloader]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

What kind of velocity can you get from the 80g or 90g bullets in a straight .223?

Will a 1:7 twist work or do you need 1/6.5 for the 90s?

What powders work best for the 80/90s- I was thinking N540?

 

[memilanuk]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

I've spun 90's from a WOA 1-7" tw barrel before (Service Rifle)... general consensus seems to be that a *true* 7" twist and enough powder should get the job done. Problem is, most times you can't get a 90 going fast enough to outperform a goo 80gr load by a significant margin - i.e. the 90 (talking primarily 90gr SMK, not familiar with the rest) doesn't have enough higher BC to negate the speed of the 80gr pills.

B80grVLD from a 24" bolt gun (1-8" tw), 24.2gr RE-15, 7.5 primers - 2840fps

B82grBT from a 26" WOA AR spacegun (1-7" tw), 24.6gr RE-15, 7.5 primers - 2860fps.

Similar loads exist with most 80gr projectiles, using Varget, RE-15, & N140. Little less powder w/ H4895. N540 used to work good for some folks pumping 80s & 90s out of a 20" SR barrel; don't recall the exact recipe or velocities. I do recall more than a few saying it grouped like crap until they got up into what was borderline high pressure. I'd recommend starting w/ Varget or RE-15 until you get a feel for things - they work pretty well in most guns, and you have to work pretty hard to break things with either of them.

Monte

 

[Wild_Bill]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

Hi here in Australia we are limited to 155gr in a 308 and 80gr in a 223 the 308 does have an edge at 1000 but 223's have won overall grand aggs from 300 to 1000, we use 30" barrels in both so the velocity is up there the 80's are over 3000fps and the 155's pretty close this is with Varget in both it is one of the 3 that are also only approved. I would sudjest that if you are new get a 7 twist 224 barrel and get a nato length throat when you chamber your rifle. I shot a few groups with 90gr MatchKings and the kick the ass of the 80 in a 30" barrel in a short barrel their is not enough length to get them to beat the 80. The 223 is cheeper to reload and you will learn to shoot and read the wind when you shoot more. If you are serious an AR is not an option the barrel length and gas operation is working against you i have owned them in the past and even a factory colt could be floated trigger job and scope made them shoot 1/2moa so im not knocking them but they dont have the barrel length to compete. Now the 223 with a 90gr and Rem 7 1/2 primer ( very important part of the equasion) LApua Match Brass will allow you to shoot bacl to 1000 yards with no issue at all we shoot nearly at sea level. The 308 Will have an advantage you are not restricted, the old 155gr Sierra and the 308 were almost identicle to the 90ge MatchKings just under 3000fps but we were not allowed to use them so the 80gr MatchKings were just behind in drift but if you read the conditions they shoot like stink and are easier to shoot without getting fategue over a long match. The new 155gr MatchKing and other VLD 155's have an advantage ovet the 90gr 223 load but at the short ranges you will eat the spotter away and any shots you may lose att he longs will even out. If you want the best of both worlds get 2 bolts and 2 barrels have your recoil lug pinned and switch barrels after 600 yards the same as most of us open shooters do we shoot a 6mm to 600-700 yards then step up to a 7mm or sompthing else for the longs but we shoot from 300 through to 1000.

But for a first rifle in F Class TR get a 223 and learn to read the wind make sure you have a long barrel 30" and long throat the throat is where most fall on their ass. With a long throat you gain case capacity my load is 25gr Varget with the 90's and 26 with the 80's if you have a shorter throat reduce by AT LEAST 2 gr, Also jam the 90's 20 thou into the lands and go shoot groups like you never would realise from a 223, the other great projectile for a 223 is the new 80gr A Max we have great success at 1000 yards with it.

For dies i reccomend Redding Type S full length dies and a redding competition or Forster BR seating die they will give you accurate loads every time and no problems ever with cases n ot fitting your chamber.

 

[manitou210]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

I built a F/TR gun this spring and shot at 7 competitions in Canada I might be the first Canadian to make the Canadian America Cup team shooting a 223 rem at Connaught Ranges in Ottawa. I almost shot the best score at 800m had 14 shots that where all 5s & V bulls then shot a 3 for 73 5v all shooting was on 1/2moa targets.
In the same wind conditions shooting with .308 the 223 had 1.75moa less than the 155gr 308 and 1 moa, less than the 185gr Bergers
A good wind reader could be hard to beat.

Action Barnard S
Barrel Tru-Fltye 30" 1/7 twist 6 grove
Stock Robertson Composites RCI-11
Sinclair front rest
Smith: Ian Robertson

Brass Lapua
Bullets: Berger 90gr match 2800fps ( shot a 75 14v at 300m)
Berger 90gr VLD 2860fps ( very good at 7,8,900 m
The 90gr match will shoot in the .2s,the 90gr VLD .350" at 100
Primers Fed Gold match
Verticale with these loads are 1/3min, very hard to do if you do not have a very good powder measure 1/10gr powder off = 3/4 moa
SORRY Guys I don,t post loads on internet there is very little info on loading with the 90gr bullets. start low and go up slow, many fellows are shooting the 223 at my club with the 90gr and there has been many blown primers, extreemly tight bolts.
Saw a fellow pack-in two Jewell triggers after blowing primers,hole in bolt face to large and primers flow around firing pin. This is not a factor with Barnard action.
I WOULD NEVER BUILD A .308 FOR F/TR The 223 is a better choice, with no recoil you will shoot better. I am sure you will see the 223 in winners circle in the near future.
This gun shoots as well as a lot benchrest guns, I may not run against the 6ppc & Br but would sure surprise some of them with 551 BC 90grs bullets at 300y

 

[mkm]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

I shoot in Australia NRA F Class Std.

I use a stock std Savage F/TR, in a F class bipod with rear bag.
I shoot 46g ADI 2208 in Lapua cases, neck turned just enough to get the necks even.
I get 2980fps with about 6-14fps SD over 10 rounds.
I should also mention I use a Dyer HBC MK2 projectile, which WildBIll would be familiar with.

Another important factor is the Federal Magnum primers.
I have tried all the main brand primers and the Fed mag ones shoot noticably better fro me in this rifle.

I shot a match today, on ICFRA tragets in pouring rain, had to shoot with a tarp over me and got a 124 with 6 supers out of a possible 126 with 21 supers.

I finished the match with 6.75MOA elevation on my scope from my usual 100 yrd zero.

It shoots bloody good.

I have noticed though, it seems to like lighter loads.
The ADI chart recommends 44g to 47g of 2208 for the 308.
Even my 44.5g fireform loads get me 2880 odd fps.

mkm

 

[mkm]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

I sould also mention that I also have used, and my daughter now uses, my Tikka T3 Super Varmint .223.
It has a 1 in 8".
I can shoot but find that the 90g I run too much pressure for the multi use (hunting etc) than I want to to get em grouping right.

I find the 80g from 500yrds+ works but not as well at 300 yrds.
The 68g hornady is more accurate at 300yrds and can be used quite fine out to 600yrds.

AS mentioned, you don't have quite the advantage with strong winds, but anythin up to say 8mph, you should be able to stay pretty close to 308 trajectories and wind drifts up to 700 yrds, esp if you have a 30" tube.

For the 223 I use...

80g sierra 24.6g ADI 2208 Lapua cases
68g hornady/69g sierra 23.5g ADI BM2
50-55g varmint loads 26g ADI BM2

mkm

 

[Trevor]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

I can attest to manitou210 rifle and performance. The guy is a machine with his mouse gun. A 223 weighing 18lbs has almost no discernable recoil, and Manitou consistently cleans 300 as he does not have the same recoil management issues the 308 shooters have to deal with. Hell I think he can see his own trace through the scope, it moves that little.

As others have stated weighing powders is at a premium in these small cases a .02 grain variation will have a noticeable difference in speed then the same .02 difference would have in the 308.

Two concerns I have are
1) With the lighter bullet, is the 223 subject to greater unexplained vertical from wind or atmospheric condition changes?
2) This is small item but I have seen the diameter difference of the two bullets 223 vs. 308 at the shorter distance where the 308 nips the scoring ring and the 223 gets the lower value. Or in one case the markers could not find the 223 bullet hole either because of a miss or do to less then astute markers.


If the bolt faces dia were the same I would have a switch barrel without hesitation.

All the best
Trevor

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

Unless you can shoot a good 90gr load out of your 223 (Berger VLD, for example), 223 will get consistently clobbered by 308 at the long ranges (8,9,1000 yards), all other things being equal. The 80 grainers we're allowed down here for F-Std (F/TR) simply can't compete with the likes of the Dyer HBC Mk2 155gr VLD (.462bc G1). If you shoot 90gr down here, you're into open class competing against the 6m 6.5, 7mm and heavy 30s.

Bill - what's this about a new 80gr A-Max? The old batch I tried out(09 purchase)were absolutely shithouse in terms of base to ogive length variation and throwing flyers everywhere. I've never used such a bad bullet. Have they improved?

Switch barrel is a good idea

 

[mkm]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

Hey Priest,
Fwiw, I never had good luck with the 80G amax either.

I always wondered how much that little ridge between the plastic and the jacket effects them.

I have shot 55g nosler ballistic tips successfully up to 300 and theygo really well, not the 80g amax though.

THe amaxes were purchased ~August last year.

mkm

 

[Mr Flannel]

Re: F/ TR 308 vs 223

Yes, it's bloody strange. All the Hornady <span style="font-weight: bold">v</span>-max bullets I've used have been good but the 80 A-Max is a dog (75 isn't much better). Chalk and cheese when compared to the Nosler 80gr CC which is a shame because the A-Max is the only projectile with the BC to compete at the longs with the 308 155gr VLDs