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Factory rifle accuracy vs. Custom rifles
- Thread starter jvr
- Start date
"Custom" means nothing. A "custom" Honda Civic is still a piece of shit, while a factory Chevy Corvette ZR1 is a world class sports car.
A "Custom" rifle is only as good as the quality of work put into it, and if you don't understand what work makes a rifle shoot to the level you want it to, then you probably don't know enough about it to make a difference in your shooting.
If you've gotten sub-MOA groups consistently with your current rigs and you've only shot past 200 yds for the first time, don't bother getting new rifles. Learn the physics on shooting that far with what you have. 50% hits on a mystery size target your first time shooting that far is a good start, but a better rifle at this point in the game would be a complete waste of money. Wait until your rifle becomes more of the weakest link in your shooting, at that point you'll know what you want.
Trying to buy a custom rifle right now would be a blind dart throw, as you haven't decided what makes a "custom" rifle worthwhile. After you find out what makes your Ruger/Browning/Savage insufficiently accurate, you'll know what parts to "customize".
A "Custom" rifle is only as good as the quality of work put into it, and if you don't understand what work makes a rifle shoot to the level you want it to, then you probably don't know enough about it to make a difference in your shooting.
If you've gotten sub-MOA groups consistently with your current rigs and you've only shot past 200 yds for the first time, don't bother getting new rifles. Learn the physics on shooting that far with what you have. 50% hits on a mystery size target your first time shooting that far is a good start, but a better rifle at this point in the game would be a complete waste of money. Wait until your rifle becomes more of the weakest link in your shooting, at that point you'll know what you want.
Trying to buy a custom rifle right now would be a blind dart throw, as you haven't decided what makes a "custom" rifle worthwhile. After you find out what makes your Ruger/Browning/Savage insufficiently accurate, you'll know what parts to "customize".
Man, what a can o' worms! I think the most important thing to consider when deciding on a custom or factory rifle is the rifle's intended purpose. I have been shooting F-TR for about a year now, and am pretty familiar with the discipline, so I'll stick to what I know. If one wants to try his hand at TR, he can certainly do so with a factory gun, provided it's chambered in .223 Rem or .308 Win. However, if one wants to compete in a sport like F-TR, he is going to have to step up to a custom. I don't care about your friend that is a badass TR shooter with his factory Remy or Savage. If you go to regional level match, no one, in contention anyway, is shooting with a factory gun. The reason for this is that factory guns do not typically have the accuracy potential needed for such a high level of precision. I started with an SPS Varmint in an MCM adj. A5 that shot pretty dang well for a factory gun. I could go out, shoot some 3 round groups in the 2's and 5's, along with some groups in .75" range at 100yrds, but I couldn't fire a 20 round string under .8" with it . EVER! It wouldn't shoot heavier bullets (185+) worth a crap, but it LOVED 168 SMK's, CC' etc. It shot 175's pretty decent, but the 175 SMK is marginal at 1k and my throat didn't allow for optimal seating of the 175 Berger. I now shoot the same SPS action, timed and trued, with a 28", 10" twist Lilja bbl, and it performs in a completely different league.
My point is that the application is the greatest dictator of what kind of rifle one will need. If someone is a casual shooter, who just wants to go shoot steel at ranges of 600 yards or so, then a GOOD factory rifle (Rem. Milspec 5R, Sendero etc.) would probably serve his needs just fine. That is, of course, if he didn't get a dud. However, if that same person decides he wants to compete at high level shooting competitions he will eventually have to get a custom rifle built for the particular discipline. The other advantage of a good custom is that they usually come with a stated accuracy guarantee. If you get a dud, you can send it back. That's not generally the case with factory guns, but there are a few exceptions. There certainly are some factory rifles that shoot phenomenally well, but getting one pretty much comes down to chance. Sometimes we get lucky, and end up with a ringer, but that is not usually the way it goes...
Would you believe me if I told you this bbl sucked for my intended purpose?
My point is that the application is the greatest dictator of what kind of rifle one will need. If someone is a casual shooter, who just wants to go shoot steel at ranges of 600 yards or so, then a GOOD factory rifle (Rem. Milspec 5R, Sendero etc.) would probably serve his needs just fine. That is, of course, if he didn't get a dud. However, if that same person decides he wants to compete at high level shooting competitions he will eventually have to get a custom rifle built for the particular discipline. The other advantage of a good custom is that they usually come with a stated accuracy guarantee. If you get a dud, you can send it back. That's not generally the case with factory guns, but there are a few exceptions. There certainly are some factory rifles that shoot phenomenally well, but getting one pretty much comes down to chance. Sometimes we get lucky, and end up with a ringer, but that is not usually the way it goes...
Would you believe me if I told you this bbl sucked for my intended purpose?
I too get irritated with Graham sometime, but when he posted this challenge in another thread I gained a bit of respect for him being willing to 'put his money where his mouth is'. So he May not be all talk and no walk, or he's bluffing I don't know and I never heard a response or the outcome but he said "You already have a standing offer from Frank to shoot the Snipers Hide Cup. I'll go one better: Come to Rifles Only and shoot the Bushnell Brawl. If you score higher than me I'll pay your entry fee." That's an honorable challenge
While I kind of agree, I do not. There is no sitting down and and analyzing the shortcomings of a "fill in the blank" factory rifle. A bunch of folks have already done that for you. The majority of custom actions are based off of a R700. An exception being Badgers clone of the AI and others that are hybrids like Big Horn, which is an improved version of a R700 w/ floating bolt head. So, naturally the after market is centered around R700 based stuff. Think small block chevy. Manufactures of custom action not only sell an action that is correct to the blueprints but make improvements where they are needed and incorporate features such as recoil lugs and scope bases.
Aside from the accuracy loss associated with the action there is the accuracy loss that is associated with the barrel which, I feel towers compared to anything lost in the action. Aftermarket/custom barrels are crucial for consistency. Along with the chamber, crown, and gunsmith.
A good bed job helps. Trigger job... Not a whole lot to think about but how the stock fits the shooter in which case I could see doing some experimenting.
Caliber depends on intended use.
In all honesty, maybe I'm a gun snob. Or maybe I just like knowing I missed and not the gun.
I was thinking about it. I just got done buying all the reloading components for the 6 Creedmoore I'm having built. All together I spent just shy of $1700 for 2500 squeezes of the trigger plus a barrel and labor. What % of that say $2300(Life of one barrel and 2500 rounds) am I supposed to be ok with hitting the dirt because my factory R700 only shoots 2MOA at distance?
Aim small, miss small.
I've had plenty of factory rifles (as in Remington, weatherby, tikka) that shot so good they wouldn't be improved upon with a custom tube other than more velocity. Great accuracy, and great consistency from cold bore shots to low ES and SD loads.
Assuming you get a good factory barrel that is accurate and consistent, velocity is the only advantage I've seen across the board with quality aftermarket tubes. Factory barrels tend to be rougher and need a couple hundred rounds to smooth out well and shoot consistent but aftermarket tubes still take a few rounds to break in the throat so it's pretty much an even playing field as far as break in is concerned.
Bottom line, if you have a factory barrel that shoots and you are happy with, replace it when it's shot out. Anything before that is money down the drain.
Assuming you get a good factory barrel that is accurate and consistent, velocity is the only advantage I've seen across the board with quality aftermarket tubes. Factory barrels tend to be rougher and need a couple hundred rounds to smooth out well and shoot consistent but aftermarket tubes still take a few rounds to break in the throat so it's pretty much an even playing field as far as break in is concerned.
Bottom line, if you have a factory barrel that shoots and you are happy with, replace it when it's shot out. Anything before that is money down the drain.
I so hate that cliche.
Ever since a Hollywood movie made it popular I have heard it repeated by marksmanship instructors who haven't a clue what it means. I have even seen it written on the walls and blackboards in LE training classrooms. The problem is... it makes no sense: The 'smaller' you aim, the 'bigger' you miss.
As to the custom rifle debate, I would put up my factory AE or AW against any custom rifle, at any distance.
I have know what you're talking about with this Hollywood stuff. I haven't owned a TV in 8+ years. That being said, I don't understand you logic so if you feel like elaborating I'm all eyes.
I agree, AEs and AWs are bad ass but what is a AE/AW smith built a custom? Would they then be equal? Ya, fucked you up with that one. Didn't I?
Factory rifle accuracy vs. Custom rifles
When people say 'aim small, miss small,' what they mean is: Use a specific aiming point. That's the same thing as teaching someone to - quite simply- aim. So the cliche is in no way the 'rule' of gun fighting that it is portrayed to be.
When people say 'aim small, miss small,' what they mean is: Use a specific aiming point. That's the same thing as teaching someone to - quite simply- aim. So the cliche is in no way the 'rule' of gun fighting that it is portrayed to be.
Makes sense I guess.
I do know that when I aim and shoot at a small dot my groups are generally smaller than if I aim and shoot at a dot twice its size. Example: .5" .vs 1" @ 100 yards.
Everybody here went off on the custom rifle tangent and missed the whole point of the OP's question.
Let me single out the important parts for you all........
jvr, a better quality rifle will NOT help you because it will not read the wind and correct for it for you. Your skills are lacking and you can't buy skills by buying another rifle.
You need to pay for training, not for another rifle.
I may seem rough, but at least I am telling you what you need to hear, not what you might want to hear.
Let me single out the important parts for you all........
jvr, a better quality rifle will NOT help you because it will not read the wind and correct for it for you. Your skills are lacking and you can't buy skills by buying another rifle.
You need to pay for training, not for another rifle.
I may seem rough, but at least I am telling you what you need to hear, not what you might want to hear.
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Agreed, however having high quality equipment from the start doesn't hurt either.. ;-)
I will take the OP's statement that his rifles are sub MOA after some work to mean that they are consistently sub MOA. If that is indeed the case, a custom rifle is very likely a waste of money when it comes to getting hits past 300 yards in any kind of wind.
There are some pretty good factory rifles out there that are consistently sub-MOA. Maybe not consistently half MOA, but sub-MOA. And that is plenty good enough to shoot long range and learn something. In fact, if the truth was known the majority of shooters won't even learn the wind well enough to outshoot these rifles at 1000.
A 308 at 1000 is around 9.5in of drift per 1mph crosswind in my AO. A 2mph crosswind is a whopping 19in. A one inch gun at at 100yds is likely to shoot about 14in at 1000 if you do everything right. Even a 1.3MOA rifle, which is not at all uncommon these days, will inherently shoot inside the resolution of an undetected 2mph wind. A ten yard range uncertainty is about 11inches. The fact is, at long range shooter errors matter so much that they will easily overshadow an average rifle.
Put another way, unless you can resolve wind to 2mph or less consistently, have a good quality rangefinder or shoot on a known range, have dope that you have VERIFIED, and a scope that you have tested to ensure it tracks accurately and consistently across the range of adjustment, then a 1/2 MOA rifle is unlikely to consistently improve your results one bit over an off the shelf 1.3 MOA hunting rifle. Nothing wrong with starting out with top of the line gear of course if you have the cash, but if money is limited you will put more targets in danger by training than buying more rifle.
A 308 at 1000 is around 9.5in of drift per 1mph crosswind in my AO. A 2mph crosswind is a whopping 19in. A one inch gun at at 100yds is likely to shoot about 14in at 1000 if you do everything right. Even a 1.3MOA rifle, which is not at all uncommon these days, will inherently shoot inside the resolution of an undetected 2mph wind. A ten yard range uncertainty is about 11inches. The fact is, at long range shooter errors matter so much that they will easily overshadow an average rifle.
Put another way, unless you can resolve wind to 2mph or less consistently, have a good quality rangefinder or shoot on a known range, have dope that you have VERIFIED, and a scope that you have tested to ensure it tracks accurately and consistently across the range of adjustment, then a 1/2 MOA rifle is unlikely to consistently improve your results one bit over an off the shelf 1.3 MOA hunting rifle. Nothing wrong with starting out with top of the line gear of course if you have the cash, but if money is limited you will put more targets in danger by training than buying more rifle.
All right, hear is the deal. I can not say AI is the best gun on the planet. I can say I have ever heard of them sucking. Ergo wize they don't work for me. I have shot a few on a few occasions. That's about it. I do know that an AI is not a factory R700 PSS in a Houge overmoulded stock.
So, What's the deal with AI? What makes them so phenomenaly baddass that even a smith from the Remington factory smith could make them out shoot anything past, present, future? I could do a search I suppose.
I disagree. If you have a 2MOA rifle and miss at distance, How can you tell whether the gun or a bad wind call made you miss? You can not. that being the case, how can you expect to learn form a mistaken wind call if you don't know if it was a mistake to begin with?
Getting a 2 MOA rifle these days would be some serious bad luck on the buyers part. Factory or not.
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Buying custom in only knowing that the chance of it being a great rifle is much higher. That and the fact that a custom is just that (Built to what you want it)
If you aren't real demanding and can work with whatever then a factory rifle will be just fine.
If you aren't real demanding and can work with whatever then a factory rifle will be just fine.
prone shooter stole my thunder, the difference from 300-600 is light years in wind reading ability if you regularly don't shoot that distance. figure the 175gr 308, 1MPH of full value L/R wind pushes you off 3" more or less.
i think you said that you had a 10 knot wind:
if it was from 3:00 you are looking at 30" +/-, if it was from 2:00 you are looking at around 24" +/-. that is 6" just because of a slight mis-reading of wind 3:00 to 2:00. now you add in that it might be a 12.5 knot wind but you dial for a 10 and you are off another 6"; or throw in a right wind at the target but a left wind at the muzzle. wind is the enemy at distance.
i think you said that you had a 10 knot wind:
if it was from 3:00 you are looking at 30" +/-, if it was from 2:00 you are looking at around 24" +/-. that is 6" just because of a slight mis-reading of wind 3:00 to 2:00. now you add in that it might be a 12.5 knot wind but you dial for a 10 and you are off another 6"; or throw in a right wind at the target but a left wind at the muzzle. wind is the enemy at distance.
That would be all nice if the OP had 2 MOA rifles. By his own account, they are sub MOA.
So no, getting a slightly more accurate, more expensive rifle is a waste of money when he can only hit 50% of the time at 400 in the wind with what he already has. Money that would be better spent taking some training and burning ammo applying what he learned in training.
Someone posted (sorry forget who) that a custom shines w/ hand loads. I think that's true of both. Takes a lot of trial and error/testing to see what a rifle likes.
As others have stated the factory rifles can be amazing. Years back my old boss who was an insanely good shooter, yes he is one of those people you hear about, and could make some insanely small groups or hit sage rats at ranges others went, uhh no way. BUT it took him forfreakingever to pull the trigger so ya, but he bought this Winchester heavy barrel Varmintter, and it looked to be fantastic. He took it out, and it would not get smaller than 1 and some change in groups. He reloaded all sorts of loads, it was a 22-250, never able to get tighter. Sent it back, and Winchester said, "it is in spec" sent back a test target that was a little more opened up than his.
Here is the kicker, he had one before, but when that one was towards it's end in life he just figured he would get a new one instead of the hassle of rebarreling. The old one was way way way tighter, as in 1/4" to maybe 1/3". Same rifle, same brand, and was only a year from when it was produced. This was around 1995.
I do believe with most "custom" rifles, if it is horrid, you can go, uhhh what, and they fix it. However, more often than not, I am sure they have tested it first to find out if this is true.
My FN SPR A1 which is my favorite rifle to shoot, had a test target that showed .42" on the test target. I have shot it better sometimes, but I do believe their guarantee is 1 MOA, not totally sure though, just their test targets usually are way better. To the person talking about their buddy's Sendero Rifle, I have one in Rem 7mm Mag, and it sure doesn't shoot that well. My best groups have been around 3/4" at 100 yards. Great gun though, and it hits my steel targets out to 880 yards just fine for what I do.
Here is the kicker, he had one before, but when that one was towards it's end in life he just figured he would get a new one instead of the hassle of rebarreling. The old one was way way way tighter, as in 1/4" to maybe 1/3". Same rifle, same brand, and was only a year from when it was produced. This was around 1995.
I do believe with most "custom" rifles, if it is horrid, you can go, uhhh what, and they fix it. However, more often than not, I am sure they have tested it first to find out if this is true.
My FN SPR A1 which is my favorite rifle to shoot, had a test target that showed .42" on the test target. I have shot it better sometimes, but I do believe their guarantee is 1 MOA, not totally sure though, just their test targets usually are way better. To the person talking about their buddy's Sendero Rifle, I have one in Rem 7mm Mag, and it sure doesn't shoot that well. My best groups have been around 3/4" at 100 yards. Great gun though, and it hits my steel targets out to 880 yards just fine for what I do.
This is exactly why F-TR shooters trying to keep all their .308 holes within a 5" X-ring at 1000 yd go to the extremes of extra long barrels (30" plus), high BC bullets that are much too long to be magazine fed, freebores of at least 0.150" and up to accommodate these long high BC bullets and allow enough powder in the case to push them fast, maddening levels of attention to brass prep, weighing powder to the half kernel, sorting/trimming/pointing bullets, and a variety of other things aimed at squeezing the most precision possible out of a round that doesn't have the best ballistics for shooting at 1000 yd.
It's worth pointing out that with all that attention to precision, only a couple times in the last year have shooters shot "cleans" (200/200) in F-TR at 1000 yd. A "clean" means MOA or sub-MOA. In other words, in spite of all the custom rifles and meticulous load development/preparation, F-TR shooters are NOT normally shooting even MOA at 1000 yd with any regularity. You might see a clean every once in a rare while, particularly in 15-shot Palma match 1000 yd segment, but the scores tell you >MOA is the general rule.
So all the discussion of "factory vs custom" and sub-MOA or sub-0.5 MOA at 100 or two hundred yards aren't really very meaningful or realistic when you're talking about shooting long range with a .308. The wind and your ability to read it are going to be the limiting factors, no matter what type of rifle you're using. Having said that, I firmly believe buying the absolute best rifle you can afford is the way to go. IMO, you always want YOU to be the limiting factor. Even if your shooting skills aren't currently up to the level of the rifle, with practice there's always the possibility they could be. Obviously, not everyone can afford to drop 4-8K on a custom rifle and scope. If you go with a factory rifle, even if you end up with a really good shooter, you're likely going to have a short(re) barrel and short(er) chamber, putting a significant limit on the loads you can shoot out of it. There is always the option of re-barreling, but then it's really not a factory gun any longer, and simply replacing the barrel/chamber won't do anything to the action/stock/trigger, etc. If you end up changing all of those, well, you might have been better off buying a custom rifle that had the setup you wanted in the first place. So a lot depends on what you can afford.
There is no doubt you can be competitive in F-Class under the right circumstances at the local level with a factory rifle, particularly with good handloads. But if you go any further up the competition ladder your odds of success decrease exponentially. So the 2nd part of the equation in the "factory vs custom" debate has more to do with what you really want to do with the rifle as opposed to how much you can spend. Notably, it's not about whether one can shoot 0.5 MOA, or 0.4 MOA, or even 0.25 MOA. Those numbers fly right out the window if you're shooting at 1000 yd with any wind at all. If all you'll ever do is shoot at 600 yd or less, the difference between a good factory rifle and a custom rifle will be less noticeable simply because you're not running them as close to the edge of the performance window where wind reading and shooting skills play an even more critical role. "Less noticeable" doesn't mean "zero", it just means there is much more forgiveness at shorter range, for both shooter and equipment. Again, focusing on the intended use and setting a realistic price limit you can afford is a good way to figure out what will work best for you.
You're correct. He did not state he had a 2MOA rifle, nor the size target he was shooting at. That being said, a good way to see how good of a shot he is and how well he can call wind would be to put a 4'x4' sheet of plywood out and find out where he is hitting, how big his groups are, and his wind calls.
Lets say he does have a 1MOA gun at 600y.? That is about a 6" group at 600. If he is using a 175SMK he will have about 29" of wind (90*@10mph) If is is gusting 5-10 he could have up to 14" of change plus the variance of the group, 3" from the POA. So, 17" of possible variance.
Lets say he has a 2MOA gun? .5MOA gun? 20" of variance. 15.5" of variance respectfully.
So, is 5" less variance worth the price tag? At about $1 each just for a hand load, I say so.
Honestly, I would like to say the guy has a gem but I have a hard time doing so given my experience with factory 700's. I did have a Savage Weather Warrior that did hold an honest 1" @ 100. It was my second. I don't recall what the first one shot like. It was before I understood the concept of milling. Every Remington I have had(3) or shot(3) shot 1.5-2 minutes. All .308. I have even used some take off barrels as practice pieces and set the chamber back... Still shot like shit. Granted, they were practice pieces for a reason... me. But they still shot like crap even after I chambered a bartlein that shot .5 on the same action/stock/tigger/optic I did the take off barrels with. Thats my experience.
AI's are badass. I get it.
705 yards.
All wind or trigger.
.260/140amax/43.5gr H4350/bartlein/r700/manners
I know it's not 6 groups but, it's what I had on my phone.
After all the good info people have posted, it would have been nice if the OP would have chimed in.
I get it, that you don't get on Ferrari.com, and tell the guys that your Honda can get you to the same destinations, only a little slower, so there is no point owning a Ferrari. I salivate at the great rifles here, and it's probably only a matter of time until I fall to temptation and get one...
Still think this guy needs training more than another sub-moa rifle, but thanks to everyone for their insight. At least *I* learned something.
I get it, that you don't get on Ferrari.com, and tell the guys that your Honda can get you to the same destinations, only a little slower, so there is no point owning a Ferrari. I salivate at the great rifles here, and it's probably only a matter of time until I fall to temptation and get one...
Still think this guy needs training more than another sub-moa rifle, but thanks to everyone for their insight. At least *I* learned something.
Factory rifles are factory rifles. You are always rolling the dice but I've had good luck with my sendero and 700p's. Someone with software can feel free to let me know what my factory rifles are doing as far as MOA (All squares are 1" I believe). I'm sure they aren't close to .3moa, but I don't think I'm a consistent .3moa shooter either.
700p 308- 300 yd five shot. I then fired my remaining 2 after I played with my AR a bit. Wind had picked up just a bit and presumably pushed them slightly high and right, but still not bad for an 800$ rifle. Note, the two rounds (223) on the Birchwood target aren't mine.
700p- 600yds, 5 shots-- damn you pulled flier....but they all count!
700 7mm sendero- 1 sighter and then 2 consecutive 3 shot groups during load development for 162AMAXs.
The 7mm has produced numerous 5 shot groups that you can cover with a dime with my 140NBT hunting load at 100yds. It shot the Hornady Heavy mag loads (139's IIRC) in the .5-.6moa range.
Both rifles have had their triggers tuned to approximately 2.75-3lbs, have been threaded, but otherwise are bone stock.
I just had a custom 260 built that I hope to perform as well or better. If nothing else, I feel the bartlein barrel will be more tolerant on my loads during development. A good factory rifle can shoot well, but when the load doesn't work, it is very evident in my limited experience.
And the biggest question for a shooter looking for a rifle should be whether that extra .2moa is work the extra 2k that it may take to achieve that. Just my .02$
Could you post what your 7mm mag load is with the 162 A-max. Looks like starting point around 62???
As always, work up a load for your rifle.
The loads pictured above were RL-22, Winchester brass and Federal 215M primers. COAL was 3.315 (book is 3.290), but my chamber requires 3.435 to touch the lands. With factory Remington 700's, I've found that about 20-30 thou longer than book values seem to work well and still feed from the magazine when using the Amax (7mm/308).
80F day when I shot.
On a different day (3 shot groups):
62.3 and 63.6 both shot sub .5moa.
63.0 was .7moa
64.3 was sub .5moa 3 shot groups but was going vertical.
64.6 was a scatter node and the bolt started getting sticky.
I haven't went back with 5-10 of the 62.3/63.6 to see which one I'll stick with.
The loads pictured above were RL-22, Winchester brass and Federal 215M primers. COAL was 3.315 (book is 3.290), but my chamber requires 3.435 to touch the lands. With factory Remington 700's, I've found that about 20-30 thou longer than book values seem to work well and still feed from the magazine when using the Amax (7mm/308).
80F day when I shot.
On a different day (3 shot groups):
62.3 and 63.6 both shot sub .5moa.
63.0 was .7moa
64.3 was sub .5moa 3 shot groups but was going vertical.
64.6 was a scatter node and the bolt started getting sticky.
I haven't went back with 5-10 of the 62.3/63.6 to see which one I'll stick with.
All I know is my old factory Rugers, Winchesters, Remmy's, etc, sucked when comparing to my customs. Especially in the accuracy department.
I bought a Cooper 204 once. It was the exception. Well my AR is pretty accurate too.
It could be that the OP used a heavier bullet than the twist could handle. A good example is the 105 amax out of a 10 twist. Sometimes it works fine. Sometimes it works well to a certain distance and sometimes doesn't work at all.
IMO, a AI, TRG, etc might as well be a custom rifle.
I bought a Cooper 204 once. It was the exception. Well my AR is pretty accurate too.
It could be that the OP used a heavier bullet than the twist could handle. A good example is the 105 amax out of a 10 twist. Sometimes it works fine. Sometimes it works well to a certain distance and sometimes doesn't work at all.
IMO, a AI, TRG, etc might as well be a custom rifle.
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