Failure to fire

Chiller

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Minuteman
  • Dec 18, 2008
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    Sole resident of Mt. Crumpit.
    Just finished the comp in AZ of the past weekend. As with all of these they are a learning experience and as such I am still learning. Unfortunately during one of the highest point total stages I had multiple “failure to fire”. They appear to have solid primer strikes and after the fact I went through that specific box of ammo and checked if I had seated the primers deep enough (none would budge or seat deeper).

    History of the brass. They were originally loaded and fired “factory” ammo. They were all cleaned trimmed, and primed. They were randomly pulled from approximately 800 pieces of brass that had all gone through the same process.

    They were stored and transported in a MTM Case Guard. The comp had a significant amount of rain and this ammo did become damp but by no means was it significantly “wet”.

    Would like to hear others thoughts on what might have happened and more importantly how to prevent it from happening in the future.


    Pulled ten bullets apart with what appears to be solid primer strikes.

    2q0ujip.jpg

    dgjloi.jpg

    4lrog0.jpg

    30rqo7n.jpg

    549miq.jpg


    The powder did not appear to be “clumping” in any manner
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    Whose primers???

    What is the red stuff on the primer anvil??

    Contact the primer Mfg. Looks like you have a bad batch of primers.

    You might pull the anvil on one and remove the fiber cover and see if there is any primer mixture in the cup?
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    1000, I've seen tons of primers with red or green anvils like those. Don't think the color is an issue.

    I do however agree that he may have a bad batch of primers. They look well struck.

    Chiller, did you use any type of penetrating solvents/lubes/oils for cleaning/storage of cases?

    What type of priming system do you use? What brand of primers are those? How old are they? Were they stored in a damp environment?

    This is a stumper. While we've all had cheap factory pistol primers not pop, I've never had a handloaded one fail, much less several in a batch.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    My main question is how were the primers stored? The chemical that does the priming is hygroscopic, it draws moisture. A couple of weeks on a shelf during the summer rainy season and I promise you will start having misfires.

    Put the factory box inside an ammo can with a good rubber seal. Then before you seal it up put in either some dried sidewalk chalk or desipaks. By storing this way I have primers that are 20 years old that still go bang.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    Chiller, i had a problem with my Badger doing the exact same thing and made the primers look the same way. Turned out it was my trigger that was causing it. My sear was off center a little and was causing the cocking piece to not be able to fully fly forward and give it good ignition. Maybe something worth lookin at.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My main question is how were the primers stored? The chemical that does the priming is hygroscopic, it draws moisture. A couple of weeks on a shelf during the summer rainy season and I promise you will start having misfires.

    Put the factory box inside an ammo can with a good rubber seal. Then before you seal it up put in either some dried sidewalk chalk or desipaks. By storing this way I have primers that are 20 years old that still go bang. </div></div>

    Once it "drys" out do they become functional again or are they ruined?

    In Vegas humidity is perhaps one of the lowest rung issues that we face. I can throw some desicant in the ammo cans while they are stored.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chiller, i had a problem with my Badger doing the exact same thing and made the primers look the same way. Turned out it was my trigger that was causing it. My sear was off center a little and was causing the cocking piece to not be able to fully fly forward and give it good ignition. Maybe something worth lookin at. </div></div>

    How were you able to resolve this issue?
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    Can you get any of the ones that did not go off to detonate? I would take one of them on concrete with pants and eye protection and smack it with a hammer to see if the primer mixture will even detonate. This should let you know if it is a mixture, contamination failure or a problem with the anvil. The red stuff is just a sealant and is on all of my primers. Some red some green.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    Did the cases get cleaned with meths to get lube off??? if there is any residue on the case it will trouble the primer

    Did you try re cocking the rifle and try a second time....if the primer wasn't seated deep enough it moves on strike so doesnt set the primer off but the second hit can work....not a good thing to do at comps though
    frown.gif
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    i had a similar issue with my M40A3, i was getting solid primer strikes on Fed 210M's, CCI's, and Winchester primers. It ended up being my mainspring. It had 1 coil sprung and it was just enough to not give it that extra it needed. Since changing it havent had any FTF's. Hope you figure it out.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    I pulled the bolt apart last night and everything appears to be in its place and no foreign material came out.

    When I went to the other ammo I still had it was back up and running again...

    All the ammo was made at approximately the same time.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did go over the same batch of ammo and threw them in my sinclair last night and none were budging and seating any deeper... </div></div>
    The one problem I've had with primers had to do with seating technique. Even though I had a solid seat, I had misfires. I re-seated, checking depth with a caliper before and after. Some seated a little deeper, maybe a thou. I changed my technique, rotating the case and then seating again. No extra pressure; just a second step. I haven't had any subsequent problems. Using the technique, I have very consistent seating depths as opposed to varying depths with a single application.

    All of my misfires fired on a second attempt. I don't remember the authority, but I recall reading that most primer-related misfires are due to incomplete seating.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    Take a lamp, remove the shade, put it outside and place a couple of your punched primers on top of the bulb. Turn on light and wait. If they pop, it's probably not the primer. If they don't, you have your answer.

    Personally, those look like nice hard strikes, but maybe the geometry is off kilter in those ten. The anvils do look in order, though.

    Chris
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Winchester 69</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did go over the same batch of ammo and threw them in my sinclair last night and none were budging and seating any deeper... </div></div>
    The one problem I've had with primers had to do with seating technique. Even though I had a solid seat, I had misfires. I re-seated, checking depth with a caliper before and after. Some seated a little deeper, maybe a thou. I changed my technique, rotating the case and then seating again. No extra pressure; just a second step. I haven't had any subsequent problems. Using the technique, I have very consistent seating depths as opposed to varying depths with a single application.

    All of my misfires fired on a second attempt. I don't remember the authority, but I recall reading that most primer-related misfires are due to incomplete seating. </div></div>

    <object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/AJXKVOxqkWM"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/AJXKVOxqkWM" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

    In all seriousness that is how I prime them. I press them in and rotate them and repeat...

    I can thank 308Sako for that lesson
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LiteTac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugh,

    From the picture, the strike looks more like a push than a solid strike. I am thinking a firing pin spring has lost its temper. Or, something is binding and slowing the pin down.

    Test the primers in the above mentioned suggestions, and go from there.

    </div></div>

    I'd have to agree with this. My buddy was having problems with misfires in his AR-30. Sometimes there was a significant delay from the time the trigger was pulled to the firing pin hitting the primer. The rounds that this happened on failed to fire and the primers looked like that. Took the bolt apart and cleaned it, lightly oiled it and put it back together. Problem solved.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LiteTac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugh,

    From the picture, the strike looks more like a push than a solid strike. I am thinking a firing pin spring has lost its temper. Or, something is binding and slowing the pin down.

    Test the primers in the above mentioned suggestions, and go from there.

    </div></div>

    Will catch up with you today.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LiteTac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hugh,

    From the picture, the strike looks more like a push than a solid strike. I am thinking a firing pin spring has lost its temper. Or, something is binding and slowing the pin down.

    Test the primers in the above mentioned suggestions, and go from there.

    </div></div>I would not argue the appearance of the strikes being suspect however,I think this might be the result of no ignition/ pressure after the strike. I would guess maybe a weak spring, off center strikes, and maybe the cartridge being significantly smaller than the chamber.
    The other school of thought holds that the reloading gods are extracting a tithe 'cause Chiller is loading with "new production 210M's" ;-}
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    You really can't tell about striker indents looking at them like the pic. You have to get down with a optical measuring tool that magnifies them and locate the exact dead center of the striker nose.

    Are all these one hits or restrikes?

    Industry standard is one half the diameter of the strikker offset to meet recommendations. Strikers are normally .060-.065 so you are looking at .030" offset meeting their standards.

    Frankford Arsenal did a several million round primer study many years ago and they determined an offset of up to .020" did not affect ignition reliability. Once past .020" failure to fires started and further they were off the worse it got.

    Link this offset with a weak/tired striker spring, headspace on the far end of the range, crud in the striker channel, and reliability goes down quickly.

    I would contact Wolff Springs, get their catalog and find your rifle. They will generally have factory and two higher energy rates. I would get the next up absolute minimum.

    When you install a new spring, record the free length of the spring and every year pull it down and measure the free length. If it gets shorter replace it. If it didn't keep on using it.

    Allowable misfire rate is 1 in 1 million which is actually a high number to US manufacturers.

    99.9999 times you have a misfire it is weapon problem UNLESS you have contamination. I have seen light amounts of moisture kill primers in minutes. (like 15 minutes on ammo that did not exhibit primer sealant)

    This is what most folks never think about. Best to waterproof them by painting heads with clear nail polish. If you are a tough ol hide use PINK ! ! ! ! After painting head glopping it around the edge of primer lay on newspaper (they are good for something if you don't have a bird or puppy) flat and drag it across newspaper to remove the polish from top of case but with the primer properly seated is below case head surface.

    That should help tremendously.

    On your unfired cases that got wet, pull the bullets, ease out the primers, put them in window in sun to dry them out well, reseat them and reload them.

    Take these and your unwet ammo to the range and fire them alternately formerly wet and unwet followed by formerly wet. Record your success/failure to us.

    What I would do is get out of town, put on full face shield, safety glasses and heavy clothing and gloves and ear muffs. Apply propane torch to them on other side of lexan shield and see what happens one at a time.

    cook off will occur about 400F. If they fizzle/smoke they are contaminated. If they pop loud (like 22 pistol) they were just wet.

    I did a big study on contaminants killing primers you guys paid for about 15 years ago. I took about 20 500 round cases of handgun ammo and opened it and laid it all out on shelving.
    I sprayed the primers with water and every lubricant I could find. I used a spray bottle to apply the water, lightly once a day as it dried up rather quickly. The lubricants of course did not.
    Fired a box a day for first five days of everything. Then once a week thereafter. Never finished the test as I was getting high numbers of misfires within days. Sent rest to be burned.

    Everything developed misfires with ALL test materials applied. I have the data somewhere. If I find it I will post it some time.

    Got several thousand rounds of 38 Special from a flood up north somewhere years ago given to me. We went out and just stood there and shot and shot.
    We got everything from full performance,medium report, low report and nothing. We pulled the bullets and melted them down and saved the brass. Don't know history of how long they were wet but I was surprised how many actually fired. Recollection was 25% misfire rate.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hummer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You really can't tell about striker indents looking at them like the pic. You have to get down with a optical measuring tool that magnifies them and locate the exact dead center of the striker nose.

    Are all these one hits or restrikes?

    Industry standard is one half the diameter of the strikker offset to meet recommendations. Strikers are normally .060-.065 so you are looking at .030" offset meeting their standards.

    Frankford Arsenal did a several million round primer study many years ago and they determined an offset of up to .020" did not affect ignition reliability. Once past .020" failure to fires started and further they were off the worse it got.

    Link this offset with a weak/tired striker spring, headspace on the far end of the range, crud in the striker channel, and reliability goes down quickly.

    I would contact Wolff Springs, get their catalog and find your rifle. They will generally have factory and two higher energy rates. I would get the next up absolute minimum.

    When you install a new spring, record the free length of the spring and every year pull it down and measure the free length. If it gets shorter replace it. If it didn't keep on using it.

    Allowable misfire rate is 1 in 1 million which is actually a high number to US manufacturers.

    99.9999 times you have a misfire it is weapon problem UNLESS you have contamination. I have seen light amounts of moisture kill primers in minutes. (like 15 minutes on ammo that did not exhibit primer sealant)

    This is what most folks never think about. Best to waterproof them by painting heads with clear nail polish. If you are a tough ol hide use PINK ! ! ! ! After painting head glopping it around the edge of primer lay on newspaper (they are good for something if you don't have a bird or puppy) flat and drag it across newspaper to remove the polish from top of case but with the primer properly seated is below case head surface.

    That should help tremendously.

    On your unfired cases that got wet, pull the bullets, ease out the primers, put them in window in sun to dry them out well, reseat them and reload them.

    Take these and your unwet ammo to the range and fire them alternately formerly wet and unwet followed by formerly wet. Record your success/failure to us.

    What I would do is get out of town, put on full face shield, safety glasses and heavy clothing and gloves and ear muffs. Apply propane torch to them on other side of lexan shield and see what happens one at a time.

    cook off will occur about 400F. If they fizzle/smoke they are contaminated. If they pop loud (like 22 pistol) they were just wet.

    I did a big study on contaminants killing primers you guys paid for about 15 years ago. I took about 20 500 round cases of handgun ammo and opened it and laid it all out on shelving.
    I sprayed the primers with water and every lubricant I could find. I used a spray bottle to apply the water, lightly once a day as it dried up rather quickly. The lubricants of course did not.
    Fired a box a day for first five days of everything. Then once a week thereafter. Never finished the test as I was getting high numbers of misfires within days. Sent rest to be burned.

    Everything developed misfires with ALL test materials applied. I have the data somewhere. If I find it I will post it some time.

    Got several thousand rounds of 38 Special from a flood up north somewhere years ago given to me. We went out and just stood there and shot and shot.
    We got everything from full performance,medium report, low report and nothing. We pulled the bullets and melted them down and saved the brass. Don't know history of how long they were wet but I was surprised how many actually fired. Recollection was 25% misfire rate. </div></div>

    Is that you Sir?
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you smack one of the deprimed ones with the hammer yet? </div></div>

    Are you going to tell me to shoot support side next?

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    This will not end well....
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    That's gonna leave a mark.
    smile.gif

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chiller</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The Mechanic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did you smack one of the deprimed ones with the hammer yet? </div></div>

    Are you going to tell me to shoot support side next?

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    This will not end well....</div></div>
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    If a misfired primer goes off when hit by something (I use a hammer and concrete floor, it must be firing pin/spring issue. If not, it is the primer killed by moisture, solvent or oil. Very small amount of oil/solvent can inactivate primer. I fired hundreds and hundres of 6.5x55 rounds lit with same batch of Wolf large rifle magnum primers with zero misfire. I had FTF on the deer opener, nice size buck in my cross hairs (virgin brass, loaded two days before). Misfire click was enough to spook him, never got second chance. I have no idea how I killed the primer, but it did happen.
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    I may have something similar:
    CAN SOMEONE HELP? VERY STRANGE DAY AT THE RANGE

    Yesterday at the range I shot 50 rounds of 6.5x284 norma cases with nosler 6.5 cc bullets with H4350 and Fed 210M. The first few bullets seemed ok then the fifth bullet/case would not chamber. I tried another and the same problem. I thought it was a bullet in the barrel but looking through the barrel, it was clear. I asked my friend for his flashlight to see if may be it was brass bits or shavings in the shoulder of the chamber, because the bullets/cases can almost get in but the bolt could not even lock. Upon inspection we found what seemed to be gold/greenish substance. We used a rod and patch and VOILA bullets/cases could now get into the chamber and the bolt locked. It also fired.
    The next few shots however seemed horrible as if the bullet was traveling sideways. I had to adjust the scope so many times, then shoot 50 yards then 100 then 200. (each case had same amount of powder.) BY that time I only had five bullets/cases left. On the next two shots, misfire. The primers went off then nothing. I shot the last two, then went home disappointed.

    As soon as I got home I pulled the bullets off the cases. AS I poured out the powder I noticed that the h4350 had semi-colors. I compared it to the powder in the keg. H4350 is dark green, I had dark green with light green and to top it off the powder in the two cases had many clumps. When I tried to pour one of the cases the powder had clumped into a large ball of little extruded powder that it could not even come out of the case. I assumed that may be it was case lube but searching the web I heard that sometimes very slow powders do not ignite fully and that the bullet is pushed by the primer and some powder. I also found out that sometimes when this happens some unburnt powder gets fired out of the barrel even comes out as a fire ball.

    I believe that in the beginning when I could not put the case in the chamber that the greenish gold substance was really unburnt or semiburnt powder/clumps.

    I followed the recipes from 6mmbr and their 6.5x284 winning loads/ long range load map: http://www.6mmbr.com/SixFive284.html
    I think that my batch of 50 had a lot of bad Federal Large Rifle Match Primers.

    I do not think it was the powder however H4350 is slow burning and the 6.5x284 norma cartridge has its bullet very far out of the neck.

    I do not want to crimp for bolt action may be a tighter neck bushing in my redding type s bushing full die will solve this problem or changing primers.

    I will call Federal and Hogdon on Monday.

    The lot number for the primers is 28Z495 (I am from Canada if that matters)

    DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY IDEAS or the same problems

    I will post pictures.
    one picture shows the large clump
    the other is the powder in the case

    Picture.jpg

    Guns031.jpg
     
    Re: Failure to fire

    My first impression is there is residue in cases from cleaning them.
    I had some similar stuff a number of years ago. My Dad had bought a case of Winchester 220 Swift ammo after the war. 30 years later it was getting eaten through spots on cases. I gave some to the Winchester Rep at Perry and he reported back there was apparently soap residue left in cases that reacted to propellant. Soap is used to lube cases while drawing them to prevent sticking.

    Next I would say ammo or primers were exposed to something that did them in.
    Primers have several stages unlike light bulbs (GO/NO-GO)
    1 they do fine.
    2 click/bang (you hear the striker hit then get bang)
    3 longer time for click/bang
    4 it doesn't do anything.

    Will be interesting to see what the propellant boys say.