Farm progress

#4
The end game is that a few global mega corporations control all food production.
From the seeds you are "allowed" to plant, after begging to buy them from your corporate overlords, to the farm vehicles you are "allowed" to run if and when your corporate overlords get around to letting you pay them.

Those stupid contracts JD now tries to get farmers forced to sign where if their tractor won't work because the software won't let it start until they pay a "dealer" to come out and change the oil... but the dealer can't get around to it in time and they loose the crop.... tough luck???

It's actually one of the things I find I often get the "Earth warrior" types onboard about needing good guns... Who needs an AR? Farmers to fight against corporations!
 
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#5
As a mechanic I think it is bullshit that the dealers are allowed a monopoly on the diagnostic software.

I worked at a dealership (vehicle not farm equipment)for 25 years and when the government said "you must share with everyone" there was a huge panic we would be without work. That never happened.

I am not one for government intervention but this is probably a case where they should. The issue is the manufacturers REFUSE to sell the software to anyone outside the dealership network.

It isn't the fact that computers are involved, it is that the owner can't communicate with it.
When a $200 sensor can shut down a $150,000 machine and the dealer doesn't give a fuck crops are going bad that is a problem.
Farming is a fickle thing, crops are only worth harvesting for a short time. It isn't like a contractor who can take a rain day and just resume the job with no I'll effects the next day.
The dealers are screwing themselves over in the long run.
When you own something you should be able to do with it as you wish.
 
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#6
W54/XM-388 said:
The end game is that a few global mega corporations control all food production.
From the seeds you are "allowed" to plant, after begging to buy them from your corporate overlords, to the farm vehicles you are "allowed" to run if and when your corporate overlords get around to letting you pay them.

Those stupid contracts JD now tries to get farmers forced to sign where if their tractor won't work because the software won't let it start until they pay a "dealer" to come out and change the oil... but the dealer can't get around to it in time and they loose the crop.... tough luck???

It's actually one of the things I find I often get the "Earth warrior" types onboard about needing good guns... Who needs an AR? Farmers to fight against corporations!
Click to expand...
I have started to try and support the little farmer (local if possible) because of this.

You ever hear/see how Tyson fucks over the chicken farmers?
 
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#7
I will add this:

All the manufacturers have to do is offer the software for sale. It might be expensive but a few farmer's would probably split the cost.

When the government told the vehicle manufacturers to make tools and software available there was a huge WTF moment but the manufacturers have learned there is money to be made selling the equipment.

I spend about 10k a year in subscriptions and licensing for all my diagnostic equipment.

Just paid one manufacturer $1000 the other day for the ability to use the software for another 365 days. Software cost $3000 10 years ago.

The dealer gets the software for free and only pays $500 a year to license each copy they have.
 
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#8
Gunfighter14e2 said:
www.vice.com

Farmers Are Buying 40-Year-Old Tractors Because They're Actually Repairable

John Deere makes it difficult to repair its new tractors without specialized software, so an increasing number of farmers are buying older models.
www.vice.com www.vice.com
Click to expand...

I have a buddy here in RI whose hobby is collecting and repairing old tractors. He has one of the largest farms around here and he does use these machines. I saw him at the range a week ago and he told me that he is having a more difficult time getting parts and people are making crazy offers for some of his equipment.

He works on two specific makes but I can't recall the names. They are not John Deere or Kubota. Never heard of this make but he says they are from the 40s to the 60s.
 
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#9
W54/XM-388 said:
The end game is that a few global mega corporations control all food production.
From the seeds you are "allowed" to plant, after begging to buy them from your corporate overlords, to the farm vehicles you are "allowed" to run if and when your corporate overlords get around to letting you pay them.

Those stupid contracts JD now tries to get farmers forced to sign where if their tractor won't work because the software won't let it start until they pay a "dealer" to come out and change the oil... but the dealer can't get around to it in time and they loose the crop.... tough luck???

It's actually one of the things I find I often get the "Earth warrior" types onboard about needing good guns... Who needs an AR? Farmers to fight against corporations!
Click to expand...
Mostly forgotten decades ago, plenty of food at walmart/whole foods...
They have been decimated to elimintae their once decent voting block.
Funny enough by a government program.

R
 
#10
Nik H said:
I have a buddy here in RI whose hobby is collecting and repairing old tractors. He has one of the largest farms around here and he does use these machines. I saw him at the range a week ago and he told me that he is having a more difficult time getting parts and people are making crazy offers for some of his equipment.

He works on two specific makes but I can't recall the names. They are not John Deere or Kubota. Never heard of this make but he says they are from the 40s to the 60s.
Click to expand...
I bet allis chalmers is one of them.
 
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#12
Gunfighter14e2 said:
Fact,...Electronics are not needed to pass emission laws, or control sub systems. Electronics are end game money makers for the mfg, an are huge cash cows when you totally control the software,.... no matter the type of equipment it's on. 100% control, Cradle to grave is the end game.
Click to expand...
I doubt you can meet the latest emissions standards without a pile of electronics
 
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#13
2ndamendfan said:
As a mechanic I think it is bullshit that the dealers are allowed a monopoly on the diagnostic software.

I worked at a dealership (vehicle not farm equipment)for 25 years and when the government said "you must share with everyone" there was a huge panic we would be without work. That never happened.

I am not one for government intervention but this is probably a case where they should. The issue is the manufacturers REFUSE to sell the software to anyone outside the dealership network.

It isn't the fact that computers are involved, it is that the owner can't communicate with it.
When a $200 sensor can shut down a $150,000 machine and the dealer doesn't give a fuck crops are going bad that is a problem.
Farming is a fickle thing, crops are only worth harvesting for a short time. It isn't like a contractor who can take a rain day and just resume the job with no I'll effects the next day.
The dealers are screwing themselves over in the long run.
When you own something you should be able to do with it as you wish.
Click to expand...


Quoted for truth.

Electronics aren't the enemy here - it's the monopolistic practices of John Deere that are at fault.

IMO, we should all spport Right To Repair laws:

www.eff.org

Defend Your Right to Repair!

(and Tinker, Make, Re-use, or Break) More and more, your devices come embedded with software. From phones to cars to refrigerators to farm equipment, software is helping your stuff work better and smarter, with awesome new features. Cool, right? Yep... until it breaks and you want to fix it...
www.eff.org www.eff.org

Right now, the legal landscape is a clusterfuck. The EPA implicitly requires that anything emissions-related be nominally resistant to tampering efforts (i.e. ECU hacking). The Digital Millennium Copyright Act explicitly prohibits reverse-engineering of encryption, even if it's Mickey Mouse bullshit. The Library Of Congress explicitly authorizes ECU hacking for the purpose of repair, which contradicts DMCA. Right To Repair, implemented correctly, can fix these problems.

Once again, don't blame the computers.
 
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#15
We’ve got two Cub Cadets and one Massey Ferguson that are still in use. Parts are indeed becoming a bitch to find, but we will never get rid of them because they still to what they were intended from the factory 40+ years later
 
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#16
2ndamendfan said:
As a mechanic I think it is bullshit that the dealers are allowed a monopoly on the diagnostic software.

I worked at a dealership (vehicle not farm equipment)for 25 years and when the government said "you must share with everyone" there was a huge panic we would be without work. That never happened.

I am not one for government intervention but this is probably a case where they should. The issue is the manufacturers REFUSE to sell the software to anyone outside the dealership network.

It isn't the fact that computers are involved, it is that the owner can't communicate with it.
When a $200 sensor can shut down a $150,000 machine and the dealer doesn't give a fuck crops are going bad that is a problem.
Farming is a fickle thing, crops are only worth harvesting for a short time. It isn't like a contractor who can take a rain day and just resume the job with no I'll effects the next day.
The dealers are screwing themselves over in the long run.
When you own something you should be able to do with it as you wish.
Click to expand...
Couldn’t agree more, John Deere is a pain in the ass. One little sensor goes out and it has to go to the dealer to be reprogrammed. Semi truck engine at least you can get software for but like you said by the time you pay all you renewal subscription you are into it for 8-10 grand. That’s after you pay 175k for a truck. It’s bs. But anymore they have you by the balls, you can’t fix shit now without having a laptop to diagnose, calibrate or reprogram something.
 
#17
Filipino tractor
1578683195211.png
 
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#19
all the r and d money has been going to develop tech to meet emissions. Some manufacturers have had dumpster fire emissions motors like the maxstar stuff.

If there was a easy less electronic way to meet the emissions they would do it.

You do realize when a diesel goes through most cities, the exhaust air is cleaner than the intake air, right?
 
#20
My paps a mechanic.. idk bout tractors but he aint had any trouble getting getting the computers he needs to talk to new BMW's, Mercedes, etc..
With that said, he won't own nothing Mercedes diesels circa 1979-1993 or so..
 
#21
deersniper said:
all the r and d money has been going to develop tech to meet emissions. Some manufacturers have had dumpster fire emissions motors like the maxstar stuff.

If there was a easy less electronic way to meet the emissions they would do it.

You do realize when a diesel goes through most cities, the exhaust air is cleaner than the intake air, right?
Click to expand...
OK
 
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#23
Forgetful Coyote said:
My paps a mechanic.. idk bout tractors but he aint had any trouble getting getting the computers he needs to talk to new BMW's, Mercedes, etc..
With that said, he won't own nothing Mercedes diesels circa 1979-1993 or so..
Click to expand...

Cars have been well-hacked for decades, and many manufacturers have been smart enough not to completely screw independent mechanics. For example, GM allows just about any jamoke with a credit card to access AC Delco TDS. Legally, they maintain some pretty scary concepts on ownership of a modern vehicle's software, but from a practical standpoint, they're not actively trying to screw anyone. And once again, note my comments above about the Library Of Congress ruling on this matter.

John Deere, on the other hand, has taken a deliberately antagonistic approach to its customers. If you aren't an employee of JD, then you don't get authorized access to the software that is required to perform even the most basic maintenance and service tasks. And if you try to hack their machines to gain this access, they sic lawyers on your ass using DMCA and whatever other justification they can invent. It's bad enough where JD owners have hired hackers from outside the US to gain access (and hackers *always* win this game - just ask the automotive OEs who have played these cat-and-mouse games since the 80s).
 
#24
E. Bryant said:
Cars have been well-hacked for decades, and many manufacturers have been smart enough not to completely screw independent mechanics. For example, GM allows just about any jamoke with a credit card to access AC Delco TDS. Legally, they maintain some pretty scary concepts on ownership of a modern vehicle's software, but from a practical standpoint, they're not actively trying to screw anyone. And once again, note my comments above about the Library Of Congress ruling on this matter.

John Deere, on the other hand, has taken a deliberately antagonistic approach to its customers. If you aren't an employee of JD, then you don't get authorized access to the software that is required to perform even the most basic maintenance and service tasks. And if you try to hack their machines to gain this access, they sic lawyers on your ass using DMCA and whatever other justification they can invent. It's bad enough where JD owners have hired hackers from outside the US to gain access (and hackers *always* win this game - just ask the automotive OEs who have played these cat-and-mouse games since the 80s).
Click to expand...
No doubt. Like I said Idk much about big tractors. Though I will say our lil 4-cyl diesel Kubota has been holding up nice
 
#26
I have an International 424 and a Shibaura SD1540 4x4 (Japanese company who manufactured small Ford, Case, New Holland and Long tractors) and neither even needs electricity to run.

AE98210C-BE3C-48D3-95E6-F8FA851B7944.jpeg


AFC3BAFD-E8A4-4579-9C5B-E09F85EED283.jpeg
 
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#27
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#28
Sewing machines, tractors, consumer electronics, photography equipment, automobiles, etc. There is a growing movement called something like "the right to repair." Equipment that lasts forever is bad for corporate bottom lines. So is equipment that is infinitely reparable. More and more industries are moving to "planned obsolescence" which is good for the company but bad for the consumer. Ever notice how every update makes your iPhone run slower until you decide to upgrade? Well, there you go...
 
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#29
hlee said:
Sewing machines, tractors, consumer electronics, photography equipment, automobiles, etc. There is a growing movement called something like "the right to repair." Equipment that lasts forever is bad for corporate bottom lines. So is equipment that is infinitely reparable. More and more industries are moving to "planned obsolescence" which is good for the company but bad for the consumer. Ever notice how every update makes your iPhone run slower until you decide to upgrade? Well, there you go...
Click to expand...
That ^^^^^^^200%
One of the reasons some people pay a finders fee an big bucks for older gear that's in top shape or brought to same.

There is a growing demand for folks who can strip ECM's an retro fit many engines. The old 855 Cummins an 33-34 series cats are bringing MONEY
 
#30
Harder to money farming now than when I started ‘89. Equip prices and maintenence upkeep are killers
These new tractors are nice but their too nice. 30yrs ago if engine turned over, mechanical fuel pump fed injectors fuel , it ran just that simple
Now with all the sensors and relays if it doesnt start or even turn over, call the dealership
Same a farm vehicles. We need, want simple 4wd, plain 300-6, 318,350, ac, fm. We gonna rag em out anyways. Have a 15 Ram Cummins that has been good trk.
 
#31
2ndamendfan said:
I am not one for government intervention but this is probably a case where they should.
Click to expand...

One of the few “actual” duties our government exists for, preventing the people’s subjugation and/or exploitation. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way there was some kind of terrible mix-up...
 
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#35
hlee said:
Ever notice how every update makes your iPhone run slower until you decide to upgrade? Well, there you go...
Click to expand...

On the phone side you are kind of stuck as if you want to use all the "Apps" you are stuck with one of two monopolies.

But on the Computer side, especially if you are running Microsoft software for your OS. If the computer seems slow and old and such, wipe it off, and install a nice non bloated version of Linux on it & all of the sudden your "obsolete" PC is doing just about everything you'd want your new one to be doing (unless you are trying to play top tier AAA games or CAD rendering, then the video card hardware is the issue).

There is a reason I like my personal computers to be these big clunky towers.... where every part can be replaced easily as needed if something goes bad & I can stock lots of spare parts.
 
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#37
I have a 1970 JD 4020 my grandpa purchased new. It is my favorite tractor. Also have a 1972 JD 4320 and 1968 JD 3020. I would love to get at least one "modern" tractor with a nice seat and climate controlled cab but you literally have to download data to the new JD's every month. Totally sick. I'd stay away from the New Hollands too as Fiat bought them out and their policy is that tractors are disposable and will only support with parts for 10 years. I'm not sure if the other mfg's do the same or not. I'll check into Massey and Kubota at the farm show later this month. Getting to the point you may have to build your own or go back to horse drawn....
 
#39
It’s not just tractors. Same things happening in heavy equipment. When the new emissions regs went into effect the pre-emissions equipment jumped in value in many sectors.
 
#42
deersniper said:
all the r and d money has been going to develop tech to meet emissions. Some manufacturers have had dumpster fire emissions motors like the maxstar stuff.

If there was a easy less electronic way to meet the emissions they would do it.

You do realize when a diesel goes through most cities, the exhaust air is cleaner than the intake air, right?
Click to expand...

Back in the 80s I read an article about an engine Honda developed that did exactly that in LA. Never went into production because the CARB approval process was too expensive and they had engines already on the approved list. We cut our own throats.
 
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#44
I've said this to my wife, friends and my dad and have always gotten looked at like I'm weird.

Whoever makes cars with current performance, yet in a way (build style as well as material quality) where you can keep your car and repair it, will start to gain massive marketshare.

Couple this with the insane cost of new vehicles, with lower quality than cars in the 90s, and you'll see how viable it is.

It's one of the reasons I went from Jaguars and almost buying a Cayman R to buying a vehicle I love, that I can also easily fix and add things to.
 
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#46
I have two trucks with electronics, however the third F350 has a S/B chevy (Ford-a-lay) with a 600 Holly & HEI. Also in the tool box is a complete dual point w/a new set of pre gaped plugs, an coil for it. A Timing light, Vac gauge an dist wrench takes space as well. All other prime movers have been modified to run w/o electronics. I'll gladly give up modern heat rates for bubble gun an bailing wire fix's. When I shed the two newer truck the follow on's will be home brew as well.
 
#49
Good mechanics and machine shops can keep the old machines rolling for decades.
My late grandfathers Case 1066 tractors from the 50’s are still pulling duty. Faded ass lead paint still hasn’t rusted. Just a little where the lights are screwed into the fenders.
I haven’t heard any farmers speak approvingly of any equipment since the 90’s. Just to much money and BS involved to get to cheerful about any of it.
A couple of years ago JD had a program that gave awesome trade in value on the old machines for a new one.
The old machines were then taken and holes punched into the side of the block so they couldn’t be rebuilt.
But hey, emissions.
3 generations of my family did not die of cancer from sitting all day 6 feet behind that smokestack on those old tractors. I doubt others have much to worry about. Maybe we are just blessed like that.

As far as the stupid high cost of the new machines. I’ve often wondered with today’s tech and CNC abilities what the cost of an 80’s or older model truck or tractor could be manufactured for. A lot of people don’t give a shit about how many climate control zones, USB ports, or trip fuel mileage calculations it has.
 
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